Professionals and their childish on field tactics

Ok, I read recently about Hore striking Davies' because he was lazy running. Of course NOTHING excuses Hore's actions, so lets not carry that argument over here.

Putting that aside, can we have a reasoned discussion about these childish actions taken by players on the pitch.

I'm talking about blocking, I'm talking about shirt pulling, holding players down, and of course lazy running.

I could give examples of each, but that would simply start the us and them bickering again. the truth is, players in every team do this. And i for one am sickened of it.

If a team has players who are fit enough and fast enough to justifiably beat their opposition in any area of the field, it is simply poor sportsmanship of the VERY LOWEST ORDER to try and hinder the superior abilities of the opposition with illegal and distasteful restraining or blocking.

The saddest thing is, every team does it, and every player you admire thinks its acceptable to get away with as much as possible.

Its not good for viewing. Maybe I'm on a moral crusade, but if the teams I support are going to win, i want it to be based on ability, not based on who got away with the most dodgy tactics.

Craig Gilroy scored a cracker on Saturday. If, for example somebody had held back a would-be defender, all that does is diminish the exceptional quality of the break, step and try.

We can't expect the players to change, not when their opposition will no doubt 'show no mercy'.

So all we can hope for is better reffing of this area and some citing.

Come on IRB, make the game fairer, make the game about talent, and talent alone!

Anyone agree?

I don't think lazy running is childish...if anything its the definition of professional .... stretching the laws to their limit without getting caught....

Indeed our own Chris Henry is a master of the skulduggary of openside play and we applaud him every week for it. Ireland are one of the cutest teams at the breakdown in the NH.

It's the nature of the beast but obviously its easier to not get wound up about it when it happens to someone else......

If the ref doesn't see it, it didn't happen. I am not condoning violence but a bit of shirt pulling c'mon?
There is nothing like seeing the look on the face of a scrum half who seems to be magically stuck to the scrum as the attacking 8 and 9 get clean away. Every self respecting 6 and 7 have that in their armoury.
Neil Backs put in to the scrum v Munster was a moment of genius.

yeah is it childish or is it cynical gamesmanship!

Sadly the older you get the less sporting players can get

Trying to win is hardly childish antics.

Thats much more suited to Ciprianias gangman style try celerbration

So Rodders/Submachine, you aren't in favour of the fastest/strongest players being allowed to use their speed/strength?

I wonder what you deem as acceptable reactions to a lazy runner. I assume you both draw the line at Andrew Hore's tactics. But what is 'ok' in your opinions if the ref doesnt see it? A shove? a trip? de-bagging?

I'll happily admit I've fought on the pitch over a lazy runner. If I'm faster than a guy, he is nothing more than a spoiled kid if he tries to block me.

clivemcl wrote:So Rodders/Submachine, you aren't in favour of the fastest/strongest players being allowed to use their speed/strength?

I wonder what you deem as acceptable reactions to a lazy runner. I assume you both draw the line at Andrew Hore's tactics. But what is 'ok' in your opinions if the ref doesnt see it? A shove? a trip? de-bagging?

I'll happily admit I've fought on the pitch over a lazy runner. If I'm faster than a guy, he is nothing more than a spoiled kid if he tries to block me.

You could argue that you aren't in favour of allowing the most cunning/quick thinking to use that to their advantage.

Bradley Davies was deliberately trying to slow Hore down, and to be honest I think he got the reaction he was after, but the ref did not see it. Much like Brian Moore used to be a gobshite in order to get his opposition to swing one, and either get send or concede a pen. I know a number of props in amature games who pincht he oppostition number when packing down in order to get a smack in the face, and ten mins against a weaker scrum.

If the ref sees the infringement then it's a penalty/yellow card. It's a contact sport. If you are going to skin me to go in for a try and I can tip you off balance before you get the ball then that's what I would do. If I can get away with it without the ref noticing the great.
If I'm cleverer than a guy then he has to find a way of dealing with that. It is true that the older you get the sneakier you become. I started playing adult rugby when I was 16 against a lot of old grisly has beens and never were's. You learn fast

clivemcl wrote:So Rodders/Submachine, you aren't in favour of the fastest/strongest players being allowed to use their speed/strength?

As the attacking team of course I am....but as the defending team I wouldn't be making life easy for the opposition or expecting my team to.

I don't think its black and white...like players retreating lazily into the defensive like, blocking or sealing off at the ruck or players deliberately getting on the wrong side of the ruck subtely to slow down the ball... players get away with this all the time... Rory best is always putting hands on the ball in the ruck but releasing just before the ref pings him...

Like I'm not sure where you draw the line between gamesmanship and cheating.... its a spectrum I suppose....

A ll this talk of being cunning and clever. Are we forgetting that its against the rules. The rules are there for a reason. If the ref doesnt see it, should a citing committee be charged with eradicating it?

Or will we just take it out of the rules altogether?

Don't forget, as well as the lazy running, blocking etc you've got the diving, simulation and card-brandishing behaviour that's creeping in too.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Don't forget, as well as the lazy running, blocking etc you've got the diving, simulation and card-brandishing behaviour that's creeping in too.

Now thats something I hate, an aimless chip over the top followed by the invisible sniper taking out the player. Its just pathetic and I don't like this conning of the referee.

Clive... D'arcy or Bowe I think it was took out the defender on a decoy run which led to Gilroys try...not illegal but deliberate blocking.... Bowe was marginally offside for his first try.

Did you not applaud these? I certainly did......

rodders wrote:Clive... D'arcy or Bowe I think it was took out the defender on a decoy run which led to Gilroys try...not illegal but deliberate blocking.... Bowe was marginally offside for his first try.

Did you not applaud these? I certainly did......

I thought deliberate blocking was illegal? And if the ref had seen it, he should have penalised them. Because it IS THE RULES. And when the ref doesnt see other breaches of the rules ie. dangerous play, then other committes are empowered with penalising players who are not playing within the rules.

Back in the day if you wanted to slow someone down you would just do what Hore did and cut out the middle man.

We have seen ben Youngs carded for chucking the ball into the crowd to stop a lineout...there is some punishment for the excesses of this stuff. Penalties are sometimes given for palyers blocking kick chasers. Refs started to clamp down on offside players guarding the oppositions entrance to the ruck etc.

clivemcl wrote:

rodders wrote:Clive... D'arcy or Bowe I think it was took out the defender on a decoy run which led to Gilroys try...not illegal but deliberate blocking.... Bowe was marginally offside for his first try.

Did you not applaud these? I certainly did......

I thought deliberate blocking was illegal? And if the ref had seen it, he should have penalised them. Because it IS THE RULES. And when the ref doesnt see other breaches of the rules ie. dangerous play, then other committes are empowered with penalising players who are not playing within the rules.

No deliberately blocking and running in front of the ball carrier is illegal, carrying on a decoy line and taking out the defender is perfectly legal but can have the same effect....my point is that the margins between cheating and gamesmanship are thin.

You get knocked off your feet by an over enthusiastic teammate at a ruck and you'll be pinged every time regardless of whether the ball is actually obstructed for the opposition. Yet shirt pulling hardly EVER gets spotted. And there's nobody with powers to punish these incidents after the final whistle.

Would it not be a better game to watch if this stuff was cut out?

Or do we say 'Hard luck Nathan Hines' you almost got away with it!'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8soVSySmqjI

and in this instance do we applaud him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJDkyeeMtbM

clive its gamesmanship, like diving in football etc. it has hit so many sports.. what about that olympics badminton game were teams wanted to lose to face a certain opponent-this is all illegal, however the reward is some times better than the punishment.. results have become more important than the sport, but its not childish- its probally wrong. but life is wrong sometimes

Where’s Peter Devilliers when you need him? If you want goody two shoes's calling fouls on themselves, go watch snooker.
Rugby is the closest thing there is to legalised hooliganism. It’s hard to condemn a bit of shirt pulling when it is perfectly legal to smash a guys ribs to pieces with your shoulder.
Hines has been the hardest player to replace for Leinster. That first clip is actually so bad it's funny. Far too blatant and lucky not to get a card. The second one though... brilliant.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:We have seen ben Youngs carded for chucking the ball into the crowd to stop a lineout...there is some punishment for the excesses of this stuff.

Throwing the ball away or holding onto to it to stop a quick line-out of free-kick/penalty is something that annoys me. Didn't Drew Mitchell get sent off for that in last couple of years (2nd yellow)?

Having said that, it's gamemanship and you can imagine a coach tearing a strip off a player for just releasing the ball or chucking it back to the other side before his side are set to defend.

It's generally all about making it look like you're not holding up play, like rolling away reeeeallly slowly, but not quite slow enough to incur the wrath of the ref.

clivemcl wrote:You get knocked off your feet by an over enthusiastic teammate at a ruck and you'll be pinged every time regardless of whether the ball is actually obstructed for the opposition. Yet shirt pulling hardly EVER gets spotted. And there's nobody with powers to punish these incidents after the final whistle.

Would it not be a better game to watch if this stuff was cut out?

Or do we say 'Hard luck Nathan Hines' you almost got away with it!'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8soVSySmqjI

and in this instance do we applaud him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJDkyeeMtbM

OK, we've heard Submachine's praise, i wonder if Rodders will echo his sentiment as an Ulster fan on the recieving end? Do you only wish one of our players was sly enough to have done it Rodders?

Clive obviously I am not best pleased to be on the recieving end! Thats a no brainer!

But lets not pretend our players aren't involved in the dark arts too..... like Craig Gilroy scored a try a couple of weeks ago by blantantly shouldering the defender out of the way..... I certainly wasn't complaining then...

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:We have seen ben Youngs carded for chucking the ball into the crowd to stop a lineout...there is some punishment for the excesses of this stuff.

Throwing the ball away or holding onto to it to stop a quick line-out of free-kick/penalty is something that annoys me. Didn't Drew Mitchell get sent off for that in last couple of years (2nd yellow)?

Having said that, it's gamemanship and you can imagine a coach tearing a strip off a player for just releasing the ball or chucking it back to the other side before his side are set to defend.

It's generally all about making it look like you're not holding up play, like rolling away reeeeallly slowly, but not quite slow enough to incur the wrath of the ref.

Still you gotta hand it to Neil Back though, legend

Yeah Back's a legend but McCaw's a cheat

The key for me is the word 'Professional'.

In the good ol' amateur days or at club level, where I am prepared to bet most of us on this forum played our rugby, the wonderful Corinthian ideal of fair play and for the good of the sport prevailed - and in terms of club rugby still prevails for the most part. Amateur rugby MEANS playing by the rules as far as I'm concerned as the very intention is to play for enjoyment. Play hard, play fair and have a bloody good time in the clubhouse afterwards.

The moment you enter the professional arena there is that new dimension of money. When money is introduced you can forget about enjoyment because now the need is to win. Forget about rugby, or even sport in general, the real world dictates that the more successful you are, the more you get.

I work, and I actually enjoy my work, but it doesn't mean that I will lay down and smile sweetly at those who try to get one up on me in my professional life because only I am prepared to interpret the rules fairly. No, I am out there looking for that edge, just as they are, to maximise the potential returns that will maintain myself and my family in the manner I would prefer. If that edge takes me a little close to the wind in terms of acceptable behaviour then so be it - and I am NOT saying here that I would be prepared to cross that line into illegality. If the law interprets my actions differently then I will be brought to book. Sport, including rugby, is no different.

Professionals will do anything, and in my view should do anything, to promote their chances of winning. That is why New Zealand are the best team in the world and Richie McCaw the best number 7 simply because they are the best at pushing the current rules right up to the line. When they cross that line that is where the officials and the citing officers come in.

So, rather than see the players carrying out petulant and childish acts on the field, I see it as the players simply doing their jobs.

Cheating is all in the eye of the beholder. Mind you, so is gouging.

disneychilly wrote:Yeah Back's a legend but McCaw's a cheat

Exactly. The hypocracy on here is just plain silly.

If i EVER see any of you on another thread lambasting a cheat, I will swiftly remind you that its a competition of who gets away with the most and that they players in question are in a certain way skillful.

But you all know you will be up in arms sooner or later on these boards about something.

Hypocrites.

disneychilly wrote:Yeah Back's a legend but McCaw's a cheat

I actually thought it was the other way round.....

I think NZ's on field game management is such that if a ref pings them for absolutely anything they'd adapt their game to play within the confines of what the ref allows. As every team should. I think Woodcock may have been told to stop pushing in scrums at one point as an eg.

Every team looks for an edge. A lot of times to find that edge you have to go looking for the edge of the laws. You're a mug if you don't, as then you won't ever know how much you can impact a game by as a team. You'll see NZ get pinged a few times in the first ten minutes as depending on field position they'll see what they can and can't do and adapt their game from there.

Of course I'm talking about things not related to foul play, which of course has been done to death in a manner which stopped me from posting much at all over the weekend.

clivemcl wrote:

disneychilly wrote:Yeah Back's a legend but McCaw's a cheat

Exactly. The hypocracy on here is just plain silly.

If i EVER see any of you on another thread lambasting a cheat, I will swiftly remind you that its a competition of who gets away with the most and that they players in question are in a certain way skillful.

But you all know you will be up in arms sooner or later on these boards about something.

Hypocrites.

I think that there is a very thin line between being technically illegal, and cheating. A pass that goes forward by a few inches is technically illegal, as is being a few inches offside, however a forward pass that is a foot ahead, of being completely on the wrong side of the ruck is cheating. And then there is outright dirty cheating.

Most people accept that rules are there to be pushed to as far as you can in order to gain the upper hand, providing you don't just outright flaut the rules. But that said I must be honest if the opposition beat my side they must be cheating somehow.

clivemcl wrote:

disneychilly wrote:Yeah Back's a legend but McCaw's a cheat

Exactly. The hypocracy on here is just plain silly.

If i EVER see any of you on another thread lambasting a cheat, I will swiftly remind you that its a competition of who gets away with the most and that they players in question are in a certain way skillful.

But you all know you will be up in arms sooner or later on these boards about something.

Hypocrites.

Well clive the next time Chris Henry concedes a penalty within the Ulster half by deliberately slowing down the oppositions ball will you be leading the calls for a yellow card?

Or will you, like me, be praising him for being the excellent openside that he is?

clivemcl wrote:

disneychilly wrote:Yeah Back's a legend but McCaw's a cheat

Exactly. The hypocracy on here is just plain silly.

If i EVER see any of you on another thread lambasting a cheat, I will swiftly remind you that its a competition of who gets away with the most and that they players in question are in a certain way skillful.

But you all know you will be up in arms sooner or later on these boards about something.

Hypocrites.

Is that "Yous are all hypocrites!" or "We is all hypocrites!".

If it's the former, then I'm afraid you're a hypocrite. If it's the latter, welcome to the club

I think as soon as you support a side in any sport you have to accept that hypocrisy is part of the deal. Not to a silly, one-eyed extent, but enough to mean you see gamemanship, misdemeanours or outright cheating as being slightly different depending on which side does it.

It's all part of sport.

Swan dives.

Morgannwg wrote:Swan dives.

Yep, Shane was a bad 'un for those.

Agreed with Morgan on this one, hate them. Ashton really gets on my mammaries.

Charles Riechelmann pretty much ended his career by a swandive in the Super 12 final I recall. Just stupid.

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

disneychilly wrote:Yeah Back's a legend but McCaw's a cheat

Exactly. The hypocracy on here is just plain silly.

If i EVER see any of you on another thread lambasting a cheat, I will swiftly remind you that its a competition of who gets away with the most and that they players in question are in a certain way skillful.

But you all know you will be up in arms sooner or later on these boards about something.

Hypocrites.

Well clive the next time Chris Henry concedes a penalty within the Ulster half by deliberately slowing down the oppositions ball will you be leading the calls for a yellow card?

Or will you, like me, be praising him for being the excellent openside that he is?

I'd prefer if our Ulster boys were fast enough and strong enough and skillful enough to win without it. In all honesty, I will always take a win. But those who know me and those who have watched my posting carefully know that I'm happy enough to voice my distaste at our own players if they do something i don't agree with.

In saying that I'm sure I look for the opposition cheating more than I study our players to see if they are doing it.

I'm not perfect either guys.

But i do think that these areas of the game are being treated too leniently and it could get out of hand.

Also, a note on the dives etc. This is in a way partly the players sharing my frustrations. They know it rarely gets spotted by either the ref our the media. You can understand them wanting to fling there arms in the air to attract attention that they've been cheated/fouled.

If action was taken by a citing committee, players would be less likely to dramatise IMO.

If these dodgy tactics were eradicated I'm pretty sure the results at the weekend would have been pretty similar, but the matches might have been more enjoyable to watch.

You may disagree. But I don't tune in to watch a really skillful bit of slowing down the ball. I tune in to see leg races, and to see contests of strength (and maybe the odd score)

I wanted to do Morgs ...but I didn't feel it was a serious enough one to include in a po-faced thread!
But yep, call them what you like - infectious, youthful enthusiasm, caught in the moment, a little bit of letting off steam. They might be bits of all those reasons in there but they are still something that make me queasy.

I suppose swan dives are a very personal thing - you like them or you don't.

I'm talking about blocking, I'm talking about shirt pulling, holding players down, and of course lazy running.

These are not childish tactics and are tactical aspects of the game for every team!!! Everyone of these actions should be accomplished in every game by every team, to what degree is debatable but if I was coaching a prof team I would certainly be practising all of the above, and have witnessed numerous prof teams doing so!! As a side note to this teams should also be practising and acknowledging ways in which to counter these moves, and ways of keeping their head when it is done to them!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm talking about blocking, I'm talking about shirt pulling, holding players down, and of course lazy running.

These are not childish tactics and are tactical aspects of the game for every team!!! Everyone of these actions should be accomplished in every game by every team, to what degree is debatable but if I was coaching a prof team I would certainly be practising all of the above, and have witnessed numerous prof teams doing so!! As a side note to this teams should also be practising and acknowledging ways in which to counter these moves, and ways of keeping their head when it is done to them!!

Just like on Scrum V they are quite impressed with the way the regions are all getting the first man at the tackle not to start a ruck but to just linger offside for a second to delay the opposition getting to the ball.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm talking about blocking, I'm talking about shirt pulling, holding players down, and of course lazy running.

These are not childish tactics and are tactical aspects of the game for every team!!! Everyone of these actions should be accomplished in every game by every team, to what degree is debatable but if I was coaching a prof team I would certainly be practising all of the above, and have witnessed numerous prof teams doing so!! As a side note to this teams should also be practising and acknowledging ways in which to counter these moves, and ways of keeping their head when it is done to them!!

I'm not disagreeing that it happens and by everyone. But it only happens because it is allowed to and is only penalised like 2% of the time. My suggestion is to crack down on it, and to cite for it and eradicate it from the game.

If your team has talented players, fast players strong players, you shouldn't be too worried about the prospect of it being cracked down on.

Or are people on here saying that they enjoy and appreciate blocking, shirt pulling, holding players down, and lazy running??

Perhaps you should be watching this sport:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aV8p_8O-Xo

As i said, It's not what i tune in to watch. Its about athleticism. If you arnt fast enough, then fair play to the athlete who is burning you.

clive i think most agree with you. But we are concentrating more on your childish comment tis all. We are arguing symatics, the english language or motivation for doing something, not saying gamesmanship is right

Clive - I think the game being played without any pushing of boundaries would be brilliant. I think it was Shane Williams that said in Japan it is like that and it is faster paced because of it.

However can you imagine how busy the citing panel would be if they had to deal with every little bit of niggle through the whole of the league for one weekend, and then punish the offenders in time for hte next weekend. It would just take way way too long.

Ah right ok. Well as a a fast runner, when someone blocks be or pulls me back, I can't help but think of a child who doesn't want me to play with his old toy so he breaks it instead.

I think it takes a man to know when he's beat.

But fair enough, in the professional game, when your opposition will show no moral respect to you, and you are under orders from you coach, I agree its maybe more a case of necessity than childishness.

Scarlet i would personally love that idea(get a panel to rewatch every game and then punish the offenders!!)

that wouldnt slow up play, you are right that it creates alot of work-- but the question is for how long. If the offenders were adequately punished- the infringements would cease to exist!!

mystiroakey wrote:Scarlet i would personally love that idea(get a panel to rewatch every game and then punish the offenders!!)

that wouldnt slow up play, you are right that it creates alot of work-- but the question is for how long. If the offenders were adequately punished- the infringements would cease to exist!!

They would also be warned it was going to happen, so the first weekend would hopefully see a reduction before the first week of review.

I'm not disagreeing that it happens and by everyone. But it only happens because it is allowed to and is only penalised like 2% of the time. My suggestion is to crack down on it, and to cite for it and eradicate it from the game.

But then what would Mccaw do???

You can't eradicate these things, they are tiny little elements that happen on purpose but also accidentaly at some points, there is no way of getting shot of them, and if my magic you did someone would highlight other things that could be done to get your team an advantage like oh say diving and claiming youve been pulled, held down etc??

clivemcl wrote:Ah right ok. Well as a a fast runner, when someone blocks be or pulls me back, I can't help but think of a child who doesn't want me to play with his old toy so he breaks it instead.

I think it takes a man to know when he's beat.

Clive I wasn't slow in my heyday but I'd still have tied your shoe laces together.....

Great thread by the way

I'm still confused by the term 'childish' is it childish to have such a will to win you will do just about anything, including holding players down, pulling them back etc or is it ruthless?

IMHO NZ have been very ruthless/childish for years now!!

Would an 80'000 strong crowd agree that a player knowing when he is beat and allowing a player to round him is the proper gentleman?!

Good grief its so manly in here. I dont see how you can say that pulling a shirt is somehow more adult than diving or swan dives.