What's missing this Autumn?

It seems to be the general consensus that the games (in general) have been lackluster.
This is not just from the losers point of view - no-one has seemed overly pleased with their team's performance.
(Argentina and Samoa aside - and an All Blacks side still undefeated)
Is it because the season is just too long and players on the edge of burn-out?
Is it due to negative coaching - more afraid of making mistakes than willing to take risks?
Just better defensive coaching?
Could be the arms war of ever bigger gym monkeys over skilled smaller men?
There does seem to be a lack of invention, and games more attritional than open.
What do you think?

Spontaneity, that's what has been missing for me in just about every game I'm watched, which is probably all of them except the games involving the French.

There have been a couple of recent threads discussing the current desire for 'Stats' and I think that's where the problem lies. The players seem to be playing in an incredibly formulate way, as if they are more intent on maintaining their averages than winning the game.

Perhaps I'm just an old git that harks back to the days when Barry would say to Gareth, "you chuck it and I'll catch it" - you know, seat of the pants stuff.

The problem is different for each team methinks:

Aus: Everyone is injured
Eng: Everyone is 12
Wal: Everyone is off form
SA: Have a fairly dull game plan
Ire: Everyone is 80
Fra: Have done well - may implode though because they are French
Arg: Did well until the last game
NZ: Did you see the Scotland game? Some incredible skills!
Samoa: Been exciting!

So no-one except Fra, Arg, NZ and Samoa has been exciting. For good reason.

The big thing for me is that the traditionally exciting teams Aus and Wal have both been a bit poor.

but may come good this weekend, well the aussies anyway, wish the welsh good luck but starting after this weekend for the 6Ns...

screamingaddabs wrote:The problem is different for each team methinks:

Aus: Everyone is injured
Eng: Everyone is 12
Wal: Everyone is off form
SA: Have a fairly dull game plan
Ire: Everyone is 80
Fra: Have done well - may implode though because they are French
Arg: Did well until the last game
NZ: Did you see the Scotland game? Some incredible skills!
Samoa: Been exciting!

So no-one except Fra, Arg, NZ and Samoa has been exciting. For good reason.

The big thing for me is that the traditionally exciting teams Aus and Wal have both been a bit poor.

Ireland team is actually quite young bar O'Gara and I think everyone in Ireland knows that we have much better younger players than O'Gara.

OzT wrote:but may come good this weekend, well the aussies anyway, wish the welsh good luck but starting after this weekend for the 6Ns...

Thanks for the good luck OzT and the same to you from a Taff. I actually think the game on Saturday could be the highlight of the Autumn because if any team is capable of the "devil may care" style of play that I'm longing to see, it's the Aussies. Maybe it'll finally wake our lads up to play to their potential. I hope so anyway.

You missed out Italy and Tonga screamingaddabs. Italy lost to both NZ and Australia but no shame in that. But they really surprised me with their attacking verve and plaudits must be given to their new coach for adding another dimension to their play, notably in the backs. Tonga take yet another big scalp (France in 2011 World Cup) and can be proud of their efforts. So there have been plenty of upsets. I think the big thing missing this autumn has been a real contest with the big guns where both sides played well and real excitement and tension were generated. England and SA or Ireland and SA to a lesser extent came close but the game never really took off in terms of all-round execution.

You were right to miss out the Fijians. They need to take a leaf out of Samoa and look at their set piece and turn that around. You can't compete in world rugby with individual brilliance like in sevens. You need structure.

Teams could also look at the success of the winning sides and their ability to break the line with offloads or creating space on the outside. Basic stuff but seems beyond far too many sides at the moment.

Think the problems with the Fijians are they're generally quite a small side, without the bulk of the other Islander sides. Seem to get bullied off the ball quite a bit.

One of the things that makes a big difference to the entertainment level of the games at the moment is the referee's interpretation of the Laws at the breakdown.

Ireland v Argentina, the ref (being criticised for this by Phil Matthews on the TV commentary) was making sure that the tackler clearly released the tackled player and allowed fair release of the ball before being allowed to compete for it. The result was lots of quick ball and the opportunity for guys to run against disorganised defences. With this interpretation, Ireland ran in 7 tries and played some great attacking rugby.

England v SA (admittedly in poorer conditions): the ref allowed the tackler to immediately jackal for the ball without clearly releasing the tackled player. As such, in most cases the ball was disrupted, slowed down and allowed the defences to be on top all game. The one try came on a freak play when SA dropped the ball near the England line (after good England defence) and an attempted hacked clearance rebounded a couple of times before landing in the arms of a SA player on the goal line. England's best attacking opportunity came on an interception.

The only team that seems largely immune from these vagaries is New Zealand, who just seem to be able to provide good quick ball regardless of the ref's interpretation - in part because they are usually playing well over the gain line, so are on the front foot and can clear the tacklers out before defensive support gets there.

A woefull lack of basic skill !

Too many players can't pass, catch, support the ball carrier, offload, spot an overlap, tackle, find touch, kick from hand, chase a kick. The home nations are playing a structured game with too much emphasis on power. The AB's have shown that you can have power and skill.

Offload - you missed out 'time a supporting run' and 'pass the ball in front of the man'.

I know the current fashion is to slate Manu for not passing / offloading, but you can see him looking for support and there not being anyone on his shoulder to take any offload anyway, so he has to go to ground.

And then you get forwards standing flat (and still) about 3m from a ruck, giving the SH no passing lane to anyone else.

Defences at the moment are so good that any slight hesitation in an attacking move (whether a 'stopping' pass or a forward where a back should be) allows the defence to nullify any half break.

dummy_half wrote:Offload - you missed out 'time a supporting run' and 'pass the ball in front of the man'.

I wanted to avoid "learn to play rugby"!

And then you get forwards standing flat (and still) about 3m from a ruck, giving the SH no passing lane to anyone else.

Dummy

Ive said this on other threads....England have been so guilty of it...ive got bored of shouting at the screen...

At least in the last game Youngs and Morgan made a little improvement but not alot.

Dont you get told at school you take the ball at pace and dont put the brakes on just before the impact...just rattle straight in to them...and take as many out as you can...

GF - I think the England plan has meant to be that they move the point of attack. pass to a forward standing flat and still and he attracts the defence thinking "turn over time!" he then passes to someone else who has fewer defenders and takes it forward.

Of course it's not working as they normally fail to get past the first bit!

screamingaddabs wrote: I think the England plan has meant to be that they move the point of attack. pass to a forward standing flat and still and he attracts the defence thinking "turn over time!" he then passes to someone else who has fewer defenders and takes it forward.

I think you are looking very hard to see a plan when maybe there just aint one.

I havent seen all the games this AI

Is this something that ALL the 6n teams have been guilty of?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I havent seen all the games this AI

Is this something that ALL the 6n teams have been guilty of?

Certainly is for Wales. Drives me mad when I see the SH pass to a static forward. When Wales have played well in recent years the ball is taken at pace (even if fairly flat) and when we have played poorly the whole team look rooted to the spot.

It has been a dull AI series.
The international game is currently a poor imitation of RL with endless phase play broken by occasional scrums and lineouts to create a contest. The ruck (there are very few mauls) has become a procession of defenders on toes and hands making an impression of attacking the ball before being swept away by the offence either going off their feet or coming round the side in order to grab the head and neck of the defender crouched supposedly over the ball.

It is pretty tedious.

offload wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote: I think the England plan has meant to be that they move the point of attack. pass to a forward standing flat and still and he attracts the defence thinking "turn over time!" he then passes to someone else who has fewer defenders and takes it forward.

I think you are looking very hard to see a plan when maybe there just aint one.

Yeah, it seems that way at times. I heard Robshaw (I think) mention it though and it's the only reason I can think of anyway. Even if you did it and it worked though, you don't do it all the time

My take...

Ozzie have had the guts of their attack ripped out and with an already struggling tight five have had to dig deeper and play a more %. That automatically makes them dull in comparison to their norm.

SA have struggled with both injuries and Meyer and have completely reverted to type. England are in the same boat without the injuries. Both are playing dour possession based rugby.

Wales have lost their mojo. Simple as that. For some reason they cant do what they did last year.

Scotland have gone backward, not being able to do anything with the ball they get.

Ireland have remained largely the same- capable of some brilliant stuff, then falling off. NZ and France are doing their usual stuff and if anything St Andre has added stability to this side.

Argie are finally succumbing to a very important year in their development and progression. The big movers are Samoa and Tonga who have showed they can compete with the big boys and at the same time express their rugby in the way only they can.

But overall, theres a dullness where something has made most sides become paranoid about being penalised at the breakdown that they want to maintain the ball, but not necessarily do anything with it, leaving the winning of the match to isolated moments between the boredom.

Thats why sides like NZ, Samoa, Tonga and France are prospering, they can do the possession thing but are also prepared to have a go and its no secret that those are the sides that generally have the athleticism and skills with the ball.

Sides have got to start being more creative and less fearful of losing- throw chance to the wind so to speak. A controlled gameplan will only give you a shot and so many matches have been won by the side in front in the last 10, oppositions not able to score when they start having to at the end.

I normally like looking for the positives in sides but I just cant stand sides not having a go. When you distance your rugby so far from the fundamental reason we all love playing the game- getting out there and running passing, kicking the ball with your mates and most of all having fun doing it then theres something wrong.

Sides are perpetuating the myth that the game can be controlled by percentage play and error reduction in such a way that it stifles free spirit and instinct, and then wonder why they're standing behind the post for the conversion.

The progamming has been atrocious and almost impossible to view all the sides because games are on at the same time.
Australia,Boks,England,Wales all missing key players due to injury,burnout,player release whatever.
The best rugby results have come from so called Tier 2 sides or sides gathering momentum to Tier1 status.Argentina,Samoa,Tonga and Italy.
Until OZ and SA are at full strength I will reserve judgement,England don`t seem to know there best team or style.Wales seem to have gone backwards, but may have been guilty of underestimating other sides.Also may have somewhat overstimated there side after 2011.
Ireland have had a very good Ai`s ditto France.even if in Irelands case they were not official Tests.
Scotland what can you say,they have good away results then don`t do it at home.BUT given they have probably the least resourcesof the 6Ns sides[Italy excepted] difficult to tell.
Finally we come to the All Blacks according to the Media they win.ONE because they are the dirtiest team in the History of the game.That All Referees are part of a conspiracy so they don`t lose .That they only won the RWC because Craig Joubert was appointed by Paddy O`Brien further that applys to the Welsh match too.
Or TWO.They are the Greatest AB side ever and better than the RWC winning side.
Or Three because the do the Basics better than any other side at speed currently.
My answer to one is EVERY side tries it on the ABs adapt better to the Ref,that the incidents can`t be excused [Thomson/Hore].BUT that in the heat of the moment ALL other sides do similar things.It does`nt Make it RIGHT but it is the nature of the Beast.
As to refs favouring one side whats new about that?
THE best AB side ever,better than 1956,63-4,67,87-91,95-6,2005-6,2010,2011 RWC side?there NOT but they are very good.
Current Player management has mean`t the ABs have been able to field more or less full strength sides all year .
It shows in the results,the year has been patchy,and not overall totally satisfactory to the hyper critical.
As to point 3 GUILTY there set up is such [as it should be]ALL the players can execute the basics at speed.
THAT should be a sine que non for ALL Test match players of EVERY nation.
On Saturday Wales and England will be tilting at SH giants again,England face fitness test on 3 players permitting.
THE strongest AB side possible for probably the first time all together this year,one could argue Gear for Savae or B Franks,or Thomson for the bench.
IF Hansen and Co. had LESS Respect for England they would have started a lot of promising players instead maybe?

Dont we say this every year?

Then go on to bemoan the quality of the rugby in the 6Ns?

Emack, Ireland have been missing as many if not more key players as anyone else.

Drico
Paul OConnell
Rob Kearney
Sean OBrien
Stephen Ferris
Luke Fitzgerald
Rory Best

All the above players are lions. Three are team captains. This group also includes the current and former ERC player of the year. Any team would miss them.

Also only one of Irelands matches wasnt an oficial test. The one against Fiji.

I think Ireland have had an ok AIs. We shouldnt lose to a depleted Boks team at home. That was a very poor result. I also wouldnt read into the other two results too much either because Fiji and Argentina were well below par.

Gear for Savea Alan?...you must have missed the games alright. Saveas playing out of his skin.

Savea has been exceptional alright.

It was a rhetorical question Taylorman,just seen the starting team versus England.Retalick over Romano starting ? I question that and a farewell cameo from Thomson would have been nice.BUT no doubt the media would have had a field day if he had been picked.
Whats really missing is the fact that the AI`s are sort of going thru the motions.Not literally but 4Ns at the end of a long season 6Ns not yet fully firing,the usual rhetoric.Followed by the usual excuses when it does`nt happen the only solution .Is a universal Season or a return of proper tours with Mid week games.Home and away 3 tests and maybe 3 Club/Provincial sides.

GunsGerms wrote:Savea has been exceptional alright.

Going forward. Bit of a Lomu in defense. Gear a better all round player IMO

Gear doesn't know how to create space. He needs a full head of steam to be at his most potent. Savea's work rate is far better and he has set up quite a few tries on this tour as well as scoring. His fade away and pass to Romano was a brilliant effort. Haven't seen anything like that from Gear.

I agree he's still a work in progress. I was impressed with Gear in Soweto after Savea had a great game in Argentina. But Savea has earned the right to cement his left wing spot much like Jane on the right wing. The only thing with Savea is that he still hasmuch to learn as well as offer. That's a scary prospect for those who have to face him.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Gear doesn't know how to create space. He needs a full head of steam to be at his most potent. Savea's work rate is far better and he has set up quite a few tries on this tour as well as scoring. His fade away and pass to Romano was a brilliant effort. Haven't seen anything like that from Gear.

I agree he's still a work in progress. I was impressed with Gear in Soweto after Savea had a great game in Argentina. But Savea has earned the right to cement his left wing spot much like Jane on the right wing. The only thing with Savea is that he still hasmuch to learn as well as offer. That's a scary prospect for those who have to face him.

Problem is some players just don't improve. His weaknesses would be exposed were he facing the Blacks rather than bebefiting from the fantastic players around him. Don't have a problem with the boy, he would seem to to the future, but hey NZ are just as likely to find someone even better on Monday

What's missing this autumn? A performance like England put in today! Well done and like France against Australia, we got a game where the SH side was taught a lesson.