Rugby Union, a year in review.
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GunsGerms
mystiroakey
fa0019
BigTrevsbigmac
LondonTiger
Taylorman
Casartelli
rodders
maestegmafia
bedfordwelsh
TJ1
emack2
Biltong
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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Rugby Union, a year in review.
So the first year after the World cup is done and dusted.
New Zealand. (12 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss) (50 tries)
All Blacks are still ahead of anyone else, even though they have shown that they are not the finished article yet.
At times they were dominated in the forwards, and last night for the first time they shoewd vulnerability. That is most likely not a bad thing or them, as now Hansen has some stuff to work on (what would he have done in December anyway?)
South Africa. ( 7 wins, 3 losses, 2 draws) (23 tries)
New coach, new forward pack, plenty of injuries. If meyer wanted too he could use all of those as excuses, but after a slow start he eventually rang the changes and although it has to be said there is much work to do in his backline selections and combinations there seems to be some "collective" teamwork that must come next year. Forwards need to be as aggressive in attacking rucks as they are in defensive rucks, there isn't enough collective and smart play to ensure momentum ball.
Australia. ( 9 wins, 5 losses, 1 draw) (15 tries)
Deans had a torrid year and has been under pressure for most of it, his electric backline had many first choice longterm injuries and it affected his backline's usual creative running. Devided opinions on who should be the pivot has not made things easier, Beale, Barnes, Cooper whoever, it won't make much difference if their forward pack can't sustain their intensity for 80 minutes. Pockock was injured for much of the season, but guys like Hooper and Gill have shown there is some depth in Australia in spite of general opinion.
France. ( 6 wins, 3 losses, 1 draw) ( 22 tries)
New coach, new life, France must have been disappointed with their 6 Nations campaign, even their tour to Argentina was a mixed bag against a team that was facing their first Rugby Championship tournament. However looking at their performances in November Freddy Michalack has certainly made a positive impact.
England ( 6 wins, 5 losses, 1 draw) (23 tries)
After coming second in the 6 nations with a young team and a new coach, England went to South Africa and took positives out of the third test which did show some promise, but I reckon Lancaster must have been disappointed coming away with no wins. As always England were physical at times but also overrun at times by the SA forwards, entering the Autumn internationals they must certainly have targeted wins over SA and OZ, but again there backs just didn't manage to fire, until of course when they met NZ last might at Twickenham.
For the first time this year, I saw an England team that had patience and understanding of how to open up defences. The whole year they attempted to go wide too early and found organised defence waiting, last night they attacked the middle and waited for the opportunity to attack the gaps out wide and it brought them a most famous victory over the All Blacks.
Ireland ( 3 wins, 6 losses, 1 draw) (22 tries)
There might be a case to suggest Ireland was unlucky with their loss against Wales, But ultimately their draw against France after many years of misery against them must have been a satisfying result. Although Ireland seems to struggle with keeping intensity with their forwards for 80 minutes, they managed to do just that against the All Blacks in the second test of their three test tour to NZ.
It seems consistency is their biggest stumbling block.
Samoa ( 5 wins, 2 losses) (19 tries)
The biggest movers in the world rankings this year moving from 11th to 7th, what more does Samoa have to do to get an invite to the Rugby Championship? The pacific nations cup is not the platform that will elevate Samoa any further, playing only three matches a year against teams ranked higher than them does not provide for much of an opportunity to climb the rankings.
Argentina ( 6 wins, 8 losses, 1 draw) (51 tries)
Having played in their first Rugby Championship this year, experience, learning and exposure was more important than results, however after winning against Wales, their last match against Ireland seemed a bridge too far. A spirited Irish team gave them a royal tonking. Overall Argentina can take much out of this season and managed to attain a tier 2 ranking for the 2015 RWC.
Wales ( 6 wins, 7 losses) (20 tries)
My lasting impression of Wales this season will be Priestland kicking ball away in the last minutes of test matches,not once but twice, and both times it cost them a match. Granted they have been without their Grandslam winning coach Warren Gatland. But surely when will they learn?
Italy ( 4 wins, 7 losses) (16 tries)
They try, they are limited but they somehow janage to beat Scotland. However their performance aainst Australia showed you can never take them lightly.
Tonga ( 3 wins, 3 losses) (11 tries)
Beating Scotland will be their most satisfying win this season, but realistically Tonga simply does not have the population or finances to become a constant threat, their upset wins such as beating France in the RWC will always be moments to savour.
Scotland ( 3 wins, 8 losses) (14 tries)
If there is a team that I have a lot of empathy for it is Scotland, they lose games they shouldn't, but then win games they shouldn't either. Inconsistency and player depth are their major challenges.
Rankings end of 2011
1 NEW ZEALAND 91.43
2 AUSTRALIA 87.99
3 FRANCE 84.70
4 SOUTH AFRICA 84.34
5 ENGLAND 81.58
6 IRELAND 80.65
7 ARGENTINA 80.28
8 WALES 79.61
9 TONGA 76.63
10 SCOTLAND 76.20
11 SAMOA 75.81
12 ITALY 73.99
Rankings end of 2012
1 NEW ZEALAND - 90.08
2 SOUTH AFRICA - 86.94
3 AUSTRALIA - 86.87
4 FRANCE - 85.07
5 ENGLAND - 83.90
6 IRELAND - 80.22
7 SAMOA - 78.71
8 ARGENTINA - 78.71
9 WALES - 78.39
10 ITALY - 76.24
11 TONGA - 76.10
12 SCOTLAND - 75.83
Overall this year it seemed to me that defences have tightened, rucks have become more competitive and also more controversial, scrums remains a mystery and there were a good number of controversial citings and rather inconsistent punishments from these judiciary hearings.
The IRB will have to seriously look at simplifying laws, the controversy surrounding interpretations is my single most biggest frustration.
New Zealand. (12 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss) (50 tries)
All Blacks are still ahead of anyone else, even though they have shown that they are not the finished article yet.
At times they were dominated in the forwards, and last night for the first time they shoewd vulnerability. That is most likely not a bad thing or them, as now Hansen has some stuff to work on (what would he have done in December anyway?)
South Africa. ( 7 wins, 3 losses, 2 draws) (23 tries)
New coach, new forward pack, plenty of injuries. If meyer wanted too he could use all of those as excuses, but after a slow start he eventually rang the changes and although it has to be said there is much work to do in his backline selections and combinations there seems to be some "collective" teamwork that must come next year. Forwards need to be as aggressive in attacking rucks as they are in defensive rucks, there isn't enough collective and smart play to ensure momentum ball.
Australia. ( 9 wins, 5 losses, 1 draw) (15 tries)
Deans had a torrid year and has been under pressure for most of it, his electric backline had many first choice longterm injuries and it affected his backline's usual creative running. Devided opinions on who should be the pivot has not made things easier, Beale, Barnes, Cooper whoever, it won't make much difference if their forward pack can't sustain their intensity for 80 minutes. Pockock was injured for much of the season, but guys like Hooper and Gill have shown there is some depth in Australia in spite of general opinion.
France. ( 6 wins, 3 losses, 1 draw) ( 22 tries)
New coach, new life, France must have been disappointed with their 6 Nations campaign, even their tour to Argentina was a mixed bag against a team that was facing their first Rugby Championship tournament. However looking at their performances in November Freddy Michalack has certainly made a positive impact.
England ( 6 wins, 5 losses, 1 draw) (23 tries)
After coming second in the 6 nations with a young team and a new coach, England went to South Africa and took positives out of the third test which did show some promise, but I reckon Lancaster must have been disappointed coming away with no wins. As always England were physical at times but also overrun at times by the SA forwards, entering the Autumn internationals they must certainly have targeted wins over SA and OZ, but again there backs just didn't manage to fire, until of course when they met NZ last might at Twickenham.
For the first time this year, I saw an England team that had patience and understanding of how to open up defences. The whole year they attempted to go wide too early and found organised defence waiting, last night they attacked the middle and waited for the opportunity to attack the gaps out wide and it brought them a most famous victory over the All Blacks.
Ireland ( 3 wins, 6 losses, 1 draw) (22 tries)
There might be a case to suggest Ireland was unlucky with their loss against Wales, But ultimately their draw against France after many years of misery against them must have been a satisfying result. Although Ireland seems to struggle with keeping intensity with their forwards for 80 minutes, they managed to do just that against the All Blacks in the second test of their three test tour to NZ.
It seems consistency is their biggest stumbling block.
Samoa ( 5 wins, 2 losses) (19 tries)
The biggest movers in the world rankings this year moving from 11th to 7th, what more does Samoa have to do to get an invite to the Rugby Championship? The pacific nations cup is not the platform that will elevate Samoa any further, playing only three matches a year against teams ranked higher than them does not provide for much of an opportunity to climb the rankings.
Argentina ( 6 wins, 8 losses, 1 draw) (51 tries)
Having played in their first Rugby Championship this year, experience, learning and exposure was more important than results, however after winning against Wales, their last match against Ireland seemed a bridge too far. A spirited Irish team gave them a royal tonking. Overall Argentina can take much out of this season and managed to attain a tier 2 ranking for the 2015 RWC.
Wales ( 6 wins, 7 losses) (20 tries)
My lasting impression of Wales this season will be Priestland kicking ball away in the last minutes of test matches,not once but twice, and both times it cost them a match. Granted they have been without their Grandslam winning coach Warren Gatland. But surely when will they learn?
Italy ( 4 wins, 7 losses) (16 tries)
They try, they are limited but they somehow janage to beat Scotland. However their performance aainst Australia showed you can never take them lightly.
Tonga ( 3 wins, 3 losses) (11 tries)
Beating Scotland will be their most satisfying win this season, but realistically Tonga simply does not have the population or finances to become a constant threat, their upset wins such as beating France in the RWC will always be moments to savour.
Scotland ( 3 wins, 8 losses) (14 tries)
If there is a team that I have a lot of empathy for it is Scotland, they lose games they shouldn't, but then win games they shouldn't either. Inconsistency and player depth are their major challenges.
Rankings end of 2011
1 NEW ZEALAND 91.43
2 AUSTRALIA 87.99
3 FRANCE 84.70
4 SOUTH AFRICA 84.34
5 ENGLAND 81.58
6 IRELAND 80.65
7 ARGENTINA 80.28
8 WALES 79.61
9 TONGA 76.63
10 SCOTLAND 76.20
11 SAMOA 75.81
12 ITALY 73.99
Rankings end of 2012
1 NEW ZEALAND - 90.08
2 SOUTH AFRICA - 86.94
3 AUSTRALIA - 86.87
4 FRANCE - 85.07
5 ENGLAND - 83.90
6 IRELAND - 80.22
7 SAMOA - 78.71
8 ARGENTINA - 78.71
9 WALES - 78.39
10 ITALY - 76.24
11 TONGA - 76.10
12 SCOTLAND - 75.83
Overall this year it seemed to me that defences have tightened, rucks have become more competitive and also more controversial, scrums remains a mystery and there were a good number of controversial citings and rather inconsistent punishments from these judiciary hearings.
The IRB will have to seriously look at simplifying laws, the controversy surrounding interpretations is my single most biggest frustration.
Biltong- Moderator
- Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-27
Location : Twilight zone
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Hi,Biltong glad you`re back if indeed you are not a bad summation of events to date.It will be interesting to see if England can replicate that performance on a regular basis.Or if it was just one of those games, both Hansen and McCaw have
given England full credit for there victory.
Hansen has said all year winning is about getting your preparation right the week before a match.
.England did that NZ did`nt BUT with 3 players on last day fitness tests.The Squad all at one time down with the Nourovirus,plus the Hore thing hanging over there head.Preparation would be very difficult if not impossible.
Citings ,the independence of the panel,and inconsistent punisments make the IRB seem foolish.As does the Player release for Test matches saga too.
Defences and kicking has reverted almost to 2009 rulings,the Scrum needs completely rehauling.Just tinkering around the edges isn`t enough it really should go back to setting the Scrum by rows.Ref.checking the binding,forming the scrum on the mark then getting on with it .
Yes it takes longer but there were very few collapses or resets when it was in vogue.The Scrummaging was far superior because they taught TECHNIQUE not brute force and ignorance.
You don`t need to talk to me about the "Black Arts "of the Front Row Mafia i`m well aquainted with them.
Why is Super Rugby not adopting the extra prop it seems the best of the some what minor rule changes.?
WHEN is the TMO going to get more powers to act the IRB are dragging ther e
feet on that one.
Breakdown?ruck watched Wales v Aus Saturday over 20 penalties either not releasing,or notrolling away but NO CARDS.
Where is the Offside line in that situation,Blocking off,Obstruction,Sealing off,Lazy running just isn`t pinged?
IF a player DOESN`T RUN back to his position but is in the other teams side of the ruck PING HIM.
Lose a few matches and all the sides would get there act together?
given England full credit for there victory.
Hansen has said all year winning is about getting your preparation right the week before a match.
.England did that NZ did`nt BUT with 3 players on last day fitness tests.The Squad all at one time down with the Nourovirus,plus the Hore thing hanging over there head.Preparation would be very difficult if not impossible.
Citings ,the independence of the panel,and inconsistent punisments make the IRB seem foolish.As does the Player release for Test matches saga too.
Defences and kicking has reverted almost to 2009 rulings,the Scrum needs completely rehauling.Just tinkering around the edges isn`t enough it really should go back to setting the Scrum by rows.Ref.checking the binding,forming the scrum on the mark then getting on with it .
Yes it takes longer but there were very few collapses or resets when it was in vogue.The Scrummaging was far superior because they taught TECHNIQUE not brute force and ignorance.
You don`t need to talk to me about the "Black Arts "of the Front Row Mafia i`m well aquainted with them.
Why is Super Rugby not adopting the extra prop it seems the best of the some what minor rule changes.?
WHEN is the TMO going to get more powers to act the IRB are dragging ther e
feet on that one.
Breakdown?ruck watched Wales v Aus Saturday over 20 penalties either not releasing,or notrolling away but NO CARDS.
Where is the Offside line in that situation,Blocking off,Obstruction,Sealing off,Lazy running just isn`t pinged?
IF a player DOESN`T RUN back to his position but is in the other teams side of the ruck PING HIM.
Lose a few matches and all the sides would get there act together?
emack2- Posts : 3686
Join date : 2011-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Bournemouth
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Scotland - with the removal of Robinson if they get a decent coach they might start to play to their potential
Scrums need to be sorted out
Scrums need to be sorted out
TJ1- Posts : 2666
Join date : 2011-08-06
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Wales are where we belong at the moment, despite two improved performances (we always lift game when underdogs) we were still shambolic for most of the Autumn series.
We scored 3 tries, 1 an interception and 1 from a 13 man lineout, we never even looked like scoring against Argentina or Samoa and the chances we did have against Australia we squandered, made worse AGAIN by poor kicking which ultimately AGAIN cost us the game.
Whilst I don't think Gatlands place is in doubt I have always said that Howley and McBryde are not upto it at this level, the main worry for me now is that they won't be replaced and will be in charge come the 6 Nations.
We scored 3 tries, 1 an interception and 1 from a 13 man lineout, we never even looked like scoring against Argentina or Samoa and the chances we did have against Australia we squandered, made worse AGAIN by poor kicking which ultimately AGAIN cost us the game.
Whilst I don't think Gatlands place is in doubt I have always said that Howley and McBryde are not upto it at this level, the main worry for me now is that they won't be replaced and will be in charge come the 6 Nations.
bedfordwelsh- Moderator
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Age : 56
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
I agree. Wales are where they belong. All the good work of the last eighteen months had come undone by the end of the Argentina match and it was like we were starting again.
Very very annoyed at the team and the management, despite the many injuries we should have achieved more.
Very very annoyed at the team and the management, despite the many injuries we should have achieved more.
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
Join date : 2011-03-05
Location : Glyncorrwg
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
From an Ireland perspective what stands out is that despite us finishing in 6th spot again our win loss ratio is the worst out of every team bar Scotland.
The AIs went ok for us but I do think we are flattered a bit by our ranking, especially relative to Wales and Scotland. Apart from a tired Argentina side we haven't beaten anyone of note all season and take away the performance against NZ in the second test and we haven't produced anything to suggest we can still compete with the top sides.
22 tries too looks good on paper but when we've needed to we have struggled to create opportunities with the ball in hand and have looked predictable and toothless at times.
The AIs offered a glimmer of hope after a poor season but we still have plenty to prove heading into the 6N.
The AIs went ok for us but I do think we are flattered a bit by our ranking, especially relative to Wales and Scotland. Apart from a tired Argentina side we haven't beaten anyone of note all season and take away the performance against NZ in the second test and we haven't produced anything to suggest we can still compete with the top sides.
22 tries too looks good on paper but when we've needed to we have struggled to create opportunities with the ball in hand and have looked predictable and toothless at times.
The AIs offered a glimmer of hope after a poor season but we still have plenty to prove heading into the 6N.
rodders- Moderator
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Age : 43
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
... also 11th to 7th shows Samoa are the big winners from 2012. Great to see
rodders- Moderator
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Age : 43
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Having such a closely matched top 8 is great for world rugby.
With the exception of Wales against New Zealand (being realistic, we'll probably never beat them again) any of the top teams could win a one off test against any of the others. Can't recall a time when that's ever been the case in the past.
With the exception of Wales against New Zealand (being realistic, we'll probably never beat them again) any of the top teams could win a one off test against any of the others. Can't recall a time when that's ever been the case in the past.
Casartelli- Posts : 1935
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Cas,
Do you really think we could beat either SA, Australia, England or France at the moment?
Do you really think we could beat either SA, Australia, England or France at the moment?
bedfordwelsh- Moderator
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Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Very weird too Rodders as I thought the Irish second and Argie match were two of the best all year. Very up and down.
For NZ a fantastic year where we did our own thing. Next year will be even better with the shake up at the Blues in the sxv with Kirwan and Henry, and being able to bring 10 new players and still remain unbeaten until the last is great.
The last week of the AI's all went horribly wrong starting with Hore, the flu thing then the thrashing by England. But thats life. We move on. Next year theyll be even stronger...and watch out for these two names for the Hurricanes and beyond...TJ Perenara and Ardie Savea.
For NZ a fantastic year where we did our own thing. Next year will be even better with the shake up at the Blues in the sxv with Kirwan and Henry, and being able to bring 10 new players and still remain unbeaten until the last is great.
The last week of the AI's all went horribly wrong starting with Hore, the flu thing then the thrashing by England. But thats life. We move on. Next year theyll be even stronger...and watch out for these two names for the Hurricanes and beyond...TJ Perenara and Ardie Savea.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
bedfordwelsh wrote:Cas,
Do you really think we could beat either SA, Australia, England or France at the moment?
SA and aus probably not. Way Wales are going they would probably manage to lose even if they lead by 13 points with a minute to go.
Against Eng and France - of course Wales can win.
LondonTiger- Moderator
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Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
bedfordwelsh wrote:Cas,
Do you really think we could beat either SA, Australia, England or France at the moment?
In a one off test, at home, we definitely could. 9th is a fair ranking for us at the moment and we play a dire brand of rugby, but 9th is a lot closer to 2nd than it used to be.
Casartelli- Posts : 1935
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Casartelli wrote:Having such a closely matched top 8 is great for world rugby.
With the exception of Wales against New Zealand (being realistic, we'll probably never beat them again) any of the top teams could win a one off test against any of the others. Can't recall a time when that's ever been the case in the past.
+1 England's win against NZ makes that post even more true.
I didn't think there was much between Eng,Ireland,Wales & France post 6Ns & I still don't. The advantage that England & Wales have is they have young squads & although Wales lack depth both teams should get better before the WC.
BigTrevsbigmac- Posts : 3342
Join date : 2011-05-15
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
France put 30+ on Australia while we again lost England out 30+ on the Blacks and we came second by some distance.
Unless a hell of a lot changes before the 6 Nations then we won't beat either of them.
Unless a hell of a lot changes before the 6 Nations then we won't beat either of them.
bedfordwelsh- Moderator
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Join date : 2011-05-11
Age : 56
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
France away is a tough prospect... England at home is plausible... but they need momentum going into the match.
First up is IRE (home) and then FRA (away)... two tough matches which they could easily lose. The IRE match is a must win else they'll be going to Rome vunerable in the 3rd match.
First up is IRE (home) and then FRA (away)... two tough matches which they could easily lose. The IRE match is a must win else they'll be going to Rome vunerable in the 3rd match.
fa0019- Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-25
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
bedfordwelsh wrote:France put 30+ on Australia while we again lost England out 30+ on the Blacks and we came second by some distance.
Unless a hell of a lot changes before the 6 Nations then we won't beat either of them.
Great thing about rugby union football (aka 'rugger') is that things are rarely that straightforward. You could also argue that Wales ran Australia closer than England did, so there can't be much between the two teams.
New Zealand find it easy against Wales now. We can't cope with the All Black power, strength and aggression - we just get blown away, whereas English teams are just as strong as they are, and soak it up. They love that sort of game - and this time decided to unleash Tuilagi in response. Would he cause such havoc against Wales? Roberts and JD2 (assuming they are fit and available) are also big, strong and fast and are proven defenders, so who knows.
The point is, there are more fascinating potential match ups in the Top 8 (or 9 or even 10) than there have ever been. Exciting times.
Unless it's Wales v All Blacks, obv.
Casartelli- Posts : 1935
Join date : 2011-10-08
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Having watched wales versus ArgentinaSamoa,Nz, And Australia I am at a loss what has gone wrong.Selection not picking a specialist Lock on the Bench when facing some of the most physical sides in the World?
.Huge number of injuries sustained and Roberts the shadow of the player of 2009.
The first half versus Argentina,they were in the game then went of the boil.Samoa was a lesson for us all how far they have improved[Argentina too come to that.Brave but in effectual against the AllBlacks but versus OZ you really SHOULD have won that one.
Lineout was appalling,far to much kicking especially the little chips,far to slow clearing the ball from the rucks.
Whats happened to the Hare Bear? he made a huge difference at scrum time.Wayne Barnes was on a mission at the tackle/breakdown area but scrupolously fair to BOTH sides.Should have used the Card early that would have sorted a lot of the nonsense.
.Huge number of injuries sustained and Roberts the shadow of the player of 2009.
The first half versus Argentina,they were in the game then went of the boil.Samoa was a lesson for us all how far they have improved[Argentina too come to that.Brave but in effectual against the AllBlacks but versus OZ you really SHOULD have won that one.
Lineout was appalling,far to much kicking especially the little chips,far to slow clearing the ball from the rucks.
Whats happened to the Hare Bear? he made a huge difference at scrum time.Wayne Barnes was on a mission at the tackle/breakdown area but scrupolously fair to BOTH sides.Should have used the Card early that would have sorted a lot of the nonsense.
Last edited by emack2 on Mon 03 Dec 2012, 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total
emack2- Posts : 3686
Join date : 2011-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Bournemouth
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Too much panic in the Welsh camp I think.....
Its amazing how quickly some of the Welsh players can go from looking like World beaters to very average players almost overnight. It was the same after the 2005 and 2008 slams too. Its not even a collective thing, its that key individual players - Priestland, Roberts, North, Warburton, Priestland, Faletau, Jenkins - are just totally out of sorts.
Is it the goldfish bowl syndrom? Is it pressure? The poor showings of the regions?
I think if Wales get a few wins under their belts then the confidence will come flooding back and they will be the team to beat again. It is amazing how fragile the Welsh psyche can be though.
England and France definitely look in the driving seats heading into the 6N but February is someway away yet. It could be a very exciting 6N and whoever wins between Ireland and Wales in the opening game could well have a big say in the tournament.
In terms of the SH, has the New Zealand bubble burst? A week ago they looked totally unbeatable, a country mile ahead of the rest. The manner of the England defeat has thrown things on their head. I can't remember a NZ side ever beaing beat by such a margin. NZ will bounce back but that aura of invincibility has surely been shattered and perhaps they will be more vulnerable next year......
Exciting times....
Its amazing how quickly some of the Welsh players can go from looking like World beaters to very average players almost overnight. It was the same after the 2005 and 2008 slams too. Its not even a collective thing, its that key individual players - Priestland, Roberts, North, Warburton, Priestland, Faletau, Jenkins - are just totally out of sorts.
Is it the goldfish bowl syndrom? Is it pressure? The poor showings of the regions?
I think if Wales get a few wins under their belts then the confidence will come flooding back and they will be the team to beat again. It is amazing how fragile the Welsh psyche can be though.
England and France definitely look in the driving seats heading into the 6N but February is someway away yet. It could be a very exciting 6N and whoever wins between Ireland and Wales in the opening game could well have a big say in the tournament.
In terms of the SH, has the New Zealand bubble burst? A week ago they looked totally unbeatable, a country mile ahead of the rest. The manner of the England defeat has thrown things on their head. I can't remember a NZ side ever beaing beat by such a margin. NZ will bounce back but that aura of invincibility has surely been shattered and perhaps they will be more vulnerable next year......
Exciting times....
rodders- Moderator
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Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
I don't think injuries can be blamed for any sides demise.... most teams have 3-4 injuries at any one time.
AUS had Genia, Cooper, Horwill, O'Connor, & McCabe out.
SA had Burger, Spies, Beast, Bismarck, Goosen, Steyn & Habana out.
What injuries do show is strength in depth however and the over reliance on specific players.
Sports science has shown us that the more players play, the more stress fractures they get eventually etc etc... if you play your XV too much and don't vary your side a little then don't be surprised if a number of your players suddenly get injured.
AUS had Genia, Cooper, Horwill, O'Connor, & McCabe out.
SA had Burger, Spies, Beast, Bismarck, Goosen, Steyn & Habana out.
What injuries do show is strength in depth however and the over reliance on specific players.
Sports science has shown us that the more players play, the more stress fractures they get eventually etc etc... if you play your XV too much and don't vary your side a little then don't be surprised if a number of your players suddenly get injured.
fa0019- Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-25
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
True, every team struggles with injuries, what compounds it though is when you also have a host of retirees in the year.
But unions around the world need to prioritise what they want out of their national teams.
One advantage New Zealand has had for some time now is that they prioritise the management of their stars.
If any country wants to get close to them they will have to have the same priorities.
But unions around the world need to prioritise what they want out of their national teams.
One advantage New Zealand has had for some time now is that they prioritise the management of their stars.
If any country wants to get close to them they will have to have the same priorities.
Biltong- Moderator
- Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-27
Location : Twilight zone
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Rodders don`t be deceived that loss will concentrate the mind nicely,six months
stewing itching to make things right.INVINCIBLE no teams that never has been never will.BUT an incredible record still one loss in 21 against the best sides in the world i`ll take that.
EVERY team has a chance in every match this AB side has`nt put in a complete performance since the RWC Semi.
They have successfully replaced more or less Rocokoko,Sivivatu,Muliana,Kaino[maybe not],Thorn and have alot of talent coming thru.
WHEN they start really clicking they wil be something else keep Kahui fit and SBW back in 2014 [bet on it] they won`t be far away a Semi RWC exit as usual probably.
As Englands Woman proved the RWC holder isn`t always tHE best side in the World afterwards.Until some one does a number on them like 2009 or 1998 the AB`s are STILL the best till proved otherwise.
stewing itching to make things right.INVINCIBLE no teams that never has been never will.BUT an incredible record still one loss in 21 against the best sides in the world i`ll take that.
EVERY team has a chance in every match this AB side has`nt put in a complete performance since the RWC Semi.
They have successfully replaced more or less Rocokoko,Sivivatu,Muliana,Kaino[maybe not],Thorn and have alot of talent coming thru.
WHEN they start really clicking they wil be something else keep Kahui fit and SBW back in 2014 [bet on it] they won`t be far away a Semi RWC exit as usual probably.
As Englands Woman proved the RWC holder isn`t always tHE best side in the World afterwards.Until some one does a number on them like 2009 or 1998 the AB`s are STILL the best till proved otherwise.
emack2- Posts : 3686
Join date : 2011-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Bournemouth
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Good article Bilty..
form an england perspective- losing to SA 3 times and only a draw isnt the best return for the year v them- But take them out the equation and we have done ok i suppose!
the games v SA were close but and kind off akin to wales v aus in recent times!!! SA have a very decent mental game!
Not as good as i would have expected- but offcourse the big win v NZ know puts as miraclassly back into a very good position.
NZ and SA are possibly the only two that have done very well this year, aus have been very inconsitrant from what i have seen, same as france who are offcourse typically like that..
so the top 6 in 2011 is the same as the top 6 in 2012! but england and sa are the only teams out of them to have more pts in the rankings- decent i suppose!
form an england perspective- losing to SA 3 times and only a draw isnt the best return for the year v them- But take them out the equation and we have done ok i suppose!
the games v SA were close but and kind off akin to wales v aus in recent times!!! SA have a very decent mental game!
Not as good as i would have expected- but offcourse the big win v NZ know puts as miraclassly back into a very good position.
NZ and SA are possibly the only two that have done very well this year, aus have been very inconsitrant from what i have seen, same as france who are offcourse typically like that..
so the top 6 in 2011 is the same as the top 6 in 2012! but england and sa are the only teams out of them to have more pts in the rankings- decent i suppose!
mystiroakey- Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Emack, no team is invincible but some can appear to be. NZ have had a massive psychological edge over their opponents.... they still will I think but I wouldn't underestimate the impact the England result will have had, especially for the NH teams who tend to put the ABs on a pedestal.
The next game up for them will be key to re-establishing their aura. They need to show the twickenham drubbing was just a blip. I suspect they will but a few underpar displays and next year could be an interesting one.
Is McCaw off for a while now? If so that will be a big blow too.... he has been incredible this year, closest thing to a superhuman I've ever seen....
The next game up for them will be key to re-establishing their aura. They need to show the twickenham drubbing was just a blip. I suspect they will but a few underpar displays and next year could be an interesting one.
Is McCaw off for a while now? If so that will be a big blow too.... he has been incredible this year, closest thing to a superhuman I've ever seen....
rodders- Moderator
- Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
He's going to miss the sxv and the French series. Back for the Rugby championship from memory. He wont be playing though. Hows that for dedication. He wants to have every chance of making 2015 which in his body terms seems like a very long way away.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Shrewd move from McCaw I think. He's been in the form of his life this year but his greatest asset has always been his brain rather than brawn.
If he can stay fit, healthy and motivated then no reason why he can't still be the main man come 2015.
If he can stay fit, healthy and motivated then no reason why he can't still be the main man come 2015.
rodders- Moderator
- Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
As well as his being able to last till then three seasons is a lot of rugby and its more likely the threat of a better 7 is going to be his problem. Chances are we'll have two or three challengers coming through by then, and we dont retain players if they arent the very best in the position- no matter who they are.
McCaw knows that and would expect to be dropped if he wasnt still the best 7 in the country and by 2015 theres a good bet he wont be- as if he is, it would mean our standards have dropped. A 34 year old shouldnt be outplaying all other 7's in NZ rugby.
So its not only a battle with himself, its a battle with those who have been looking up to him as the standard to meet or beat all these years.
McCaw knows that and would expect to be dropped if he wasnt still the best 7 in the country and by 2015 theres a good bet he wont be- as if he is, it would mean our standards have dropped. A 34 year old shouldnt be outplaying all other 7's in NZ rugby.
So its not only a battle with himself, its a battle with those who have been looking up to him as the standard to meet or beat all these years.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Taylorman wrote:
McCaw knows that and would expect to be dropped if he wasnt still the best 7 in the country and by 2015 theres a good bet he wont be- as if he is, it would mean our standards have dropped. A 34 year old shouldnt be outplaying all other 7's in NZ rugby.
I'd probably have said a year ago that a 30 year old on one leg shouldn't be outplaying all the other 7s in the RWC either.....
rodders- Moderator
- Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Yep- still the best at 30. 34...dunno. It also depends on the type of game the ABs are playing there. I think he might have to revert to 6.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Dont think anyone is going to want Wales in their group when it is announced today.
GunsGerms- Posts : 12542
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 44
Location : Ireland
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Not me anyways!....
rodders- Moderator
- Posts : 25501
Join date : 2011-05-20
Age : 43
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
nah i cant believe you dudes slipped out the top 8!! ya wrongons!
mystiroakey- Posts : 32472
Join date : 2011-03-06
Age : 47
Location : surrey
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
First off I do apologise as I never try to get personal but anyone who can take real positives from this series are delusional.
We never looked like scoring against Argentina or Samoa and NZ took their foot off the gas when 30 points up.
Against Australia we did create some chances but blew them and then yet AGAIN our man management cost us dearly and we lost. How many times do we have to go through this with people saying we will learn from it.
We haven't at yet and I really can't see us learning from it with the current tactics and game plan.
Like most teams we were hit with injuries but why didn't the players have the common sense to keep ball for 50 seconds and run the clock down.
We never looked like scoring against Argentina or Samoa and NZ took their foot off the gas when 30 points up.
Against Australia we did create some chances but blew them and then yet AGAIN our man management cost us dearly and we lost. How many times do we have to go through this with people saying we will learn from it.
We haven't at yet and I really can't see us learning from it with the current tactics and game plan.
Like most teams we were hit with injuries but why didn't the players have the common sense to keep ball for 50 seconds and run the clock down.
bedfordwelsh- Moderator
- Posts : 9962
Join date : 2011-05-11
Age : 56
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
crowd, noise, adrenaline, Welsh player spirit always eager to turn on the after-burners. Any of those reasons could be one that decided the clock wasn't run down. Sometimes the Welsh crowd is the Welsh team's worst enemy, always pushing them for another thunderclap down the wings.
SecretFly- Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Secret,
There were enough players on the field at the end with the experience to be able to blot the crowd and noise out.
There were enough players on the field at the end with the experience to be able to blot the crowd and noise out.
bedfordwelsh- Moderator
- Posts : 9962
Join date : 2011-05-11
Age : 56
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Well the England New Zealand game should provide a boost for every side....if you have the right attitude and total self belief, then anything is possible. If you were to pick a combined England/All Black side today, probably only Dan Cole for England would make the side.
Yet we saw (arguably) players of lesser ability demolish the No 1 Side in the world. England won simply because they believed they could.
Yet we saw (arguably) players of lesser ability demolish the No 1 Side in the world. England won simply because they believed they could.
mr_stonelea- Posts : 147
Join date : 2011-06-28
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
One of the things I like Lancaster for - he seems to have instilled the right mental attitude in the team. If he hadn't got the England job I would have been happy with having him for the Scotland jobmr_stonelea wrote:Well the England New Zealand game should provide a boost for every side....if you have the right attitude and total self belief, then anything is possible. If you were to pick a combined England/All Black side today, probably only Dan Cole for England would make the side.
Yet we saw (arguably) players of lesser ability demolish the No 1 Side in the world. England won simply because they believed they could.
TJ1- Posts : 2666
Join date : 2011-08-06
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
bedfordwelsh wrote:Secret,
There were enough players on the field at the end with the experience to be able to blot the crowd and noise out.
The 'experience' is - they seldom do. They get as fired up as the crowds and can let the passion to impress rule the head of wanting to contain the game, deaden it down, let it trail out unremarkably with a win.
SecretFly- Posts : 31800
Join date : 2011-12-12
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
They never did look like world beaters. In the RWC Wales the only team of any significance Wales beat was Ireland. They lost to South Africa, france and Australia. In the Six Nations they just managed to beat a very young and inexperienced England team. Credit to them for wining a Grand Slam. How can a team that never win against SH teams be considered world beaters?rodders wrote:Too much panic in the Welsh camp I think.....
Its amazing how quickly some of the Welsh players can go from looking like World beaters to very average players almost overnight. ..
Exiledinborders- Posts : 1645
Join date : 2012-03-18
Location : Scottish Borders
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
Defeats like last Saturday are timely reminders. In a way, it's the ideal time to have a defeat. The ABs had a good win in France and had the off-season to stew over their 3 - 0 whitewash against SA in 2009. The response at Eden Park was sublime. Similarly, the 3N defeat in 2011 in Brisbane was met with the semi final dismantling of Australia.
NZ responds well to disappointments. They showed in 2011 what happens when you don't go in with the right attitude in the forwards and lose the breakdown battle. They showed what they can do when they pile on the pressure themselves. The key is to work on your failings and keep your strengths honed. I have no doubt NZ can do that and they need to because the France 3 match series and a strengthened Australia and SA pose huge threats next season. Couldn't have asked for more ideal opposition with no doubt an end of year match at Twickenham thrown into the mix.
NZ responds well to disappointments. They showed in 2011 what happens when you don't go in with the right attitude in the forwards and lose the breakdown battle. They showed what they can do when they pile on the pressure themselves. The key is to work on your failings and keep your strengths honed. I have no doubt NZ can do that and they need to because the France 3 match series and a strengthened Australia and SA pose huge threats next season. Couldn't have asked for more ideal opposition with no doubt an end of year match at Twickenham thrown into the mix.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Madrid
Re: Rugby Union, a year in review.
mr_stonelea wrote:Well the England New Zealand game should provide a boost for every side....if you have the right attitude and total self belief, then anything is possible.
Bordering on something very dangerous here. It suggests that the side does not know how to have the right attitude and total self belief for 90% of its matches, as on that performance England shouldnt have lost this year, nor should they in the next year or two. But we all know thats not gonna happen.
Expectations on England will be high for every match regardless of what people say, yet its likely all 5 teams will be gunning for them 6N and they could lose 2 or 3 trying to maintain those standards. Good thing is theyll get to feel a little bit about what its like for the AB's, having to back up match, after match, after match. Will the'y be able to back this up next 10 tests? No. A one off is a one off. Englands form over the last year suggests it was a one off, just as NZ's form over the last 12 months suggests the same.
Within two months this board will be cluttered with 'What happened to the side that beat the AB's' and there will be all sorts of theories, none of them being it was a one off, nor that they didnt have the right attitude or self belief. It'll be back to "Oh this player is hopeless, the coach picked the wrong layers- all the usual technical reasons. Its happened before.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
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