A full strength England team for 6 nations?

Just interested to know what people collectively feel may now be a full strength England team and bench following the Autumn Internationals. To my mind we have the potential to field a very powerful impact bench with plenty of good ball carriers for the 6 nations, which is exciting:

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchberry
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. B Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Foden
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Goode

16. Marler
17. T Youngs
18. Wilson
19. Lawes
20. Haskell/Croft
21. Care
22. Joseph
23. Burns/Flood

Marler, Tom Youngs, Lawes and Haskell are great impact subs for the last 20 mins or so.

My squad is really tough on Brown who I thought was excellent yesterday but for me Foden has to come back in when fit to give us more of a cutting edge and pace. He's better suited to play wing too assuming Goode is at full back. I don't see Brown as a great bench option so he misses out.

I'm seriously impressed with Launchberry and feel ultimately him and Lawes are the future (injuries have just held up Lawes progress). Great to have 2 locks who have also played a lot at 6 so can give us great mobility. Parling has that place for the moment though.

Croft coming back is interesting as I really rate him. Robshaw was outstanding yesterday (as was everyone!) and obviously he's captain but is it possible that when everyone is fit, he could actually miss out in a very competitive back row? Big call I know.

6. Croft
7. Wood
8. Morgan

Some very good headaches to have...

I think the 3 positions that we still require some quality depth are inside centre (hoping Twelvetrees can starting pressurising Barritt), Wing (not convinced by Sharples and although we have a lot of exciting prospects, they're quite raw - Wade, May etc). Tight head prop is the other I'd like more quality options with.

Ultimately injuries will always occur meaning you're unlikely to ever have everyone available but it's great to see an exciting group of young players all coming through together. Hope we can tear up the 6 nations...

I think Robshaw's performances since and including the SA tour have made him pretty much undroppable at the moment. He's been immense! Can't argue much with your team, like you my first thought was "jeez, that's harsh on Brown!" it's basically a choice between him and Foden though isn't it? I think Goode has done more than enough to keep the 15 shirt at the moment.

Harsh as this may sound on Flood, I don't think I've ever seen him controlling a game like Farrell did yesterday, and Burns looked really good to me too. Flood has had some very good performances for England, but not enough against the very good sides for me (barring the one against Australia in 2010), so he misses out for me.

That's pretty much the same side I would pick. brown played a lot better than I expected, but for me he still isn't quite quick enough for an international wing and I rate Goode more highly at 15. Brown got beaten on the outside a couple of times against NZ, though overall I thought he was very good.

With the back row I think that we are unlikely to have all five mentioned fit at once, if we do then it just comes down to form really.

Edit: actually, I'd start Youngs at hooker. Challenge him to keep the shirt away from Hartley and let Hartley know he will really have to play well to get it back!

Exactly the same side I'd pick as well. Very exciting time to be an England fan. I'd probably have Burns on the bench over Flood and Croft over Haskell. There's 5 players on the bench that I wouldn't mind having in the first XV, which shows the great depth we have at the moment.

Yes Brown missing out is ridiculously harsh M4C after how he did yesterday but the reality is that the way things are shaping up and if we're injury free some very good players won't make the squad.

I agree with Screaming you need a bit more pace in the back 3. Goode and Brown are very good players but outright pace isn't their strongest area (even though Brown has improved in that area). I think I saw a NZ flanker do Brown for pace on the touch line in the second half. You therefore can't play them both.

Foden and Ashton have shown how well they combine plus Foden playing wing also means we can keep the recent 2 full backs in the back 3 tactic.

Take your point on Robshaw but Croft is hell of a player - arguably our best player in the last 6 nations. I think there's an argument that Croft and Foden are 2 of our best 3 or 4 players anyway. Neither has played this autumn so that's encouraging to think of them back in the mix.

Burns looked very good but it was a cameo for an England side full of confidence and really getting on top up front. Still couldn't have done any better. Scary when you consider George Ford is widely thought to be the heir apparent...

Harsh on Tom Youngs...who yet again was outstanding...id keep him in. Hartely has to win the shirt back.

I think it will be difficult for SL to change the team against NZ for the start of the 6Ns.
Let the returning players get match fit & prove they deserve another shot. None of the players from Saturday deserve to be dropped until evidence proves otherwise.
Great to have strength in depth but let the lads fight for the shirt.

Still think to go to the next level we have to be looking at Burns rather than Farrell. I'm still wanting to see Twelvetrees at 12 as well. Harsh on Farrell and Barritt but think ultimately in the long term those 2 players will improve us.

Croft can't really be the replacement cover for the back row (can be cover for 2nd row + 6, but that would be in place of Lawes) - he doesn't have the versatility to play 7 or 8, so we'd need to shuffle the pack too much if Morgan in particular was injured. Haskell is a better bench option because of his versatility and experience across all three positions (he has started internationals in each position).

One solution to the Foden v Goode v Brown conundrum is to have one of them on the bench instead of Joseph.
I'd also be inclined to have 12trees on the bench to cover the inside backs positions - OK, he's probably not a truly international class 10, but he's played plenty of his rugby there and his goal kicking is adequate, so has the versatility required.

For the first game against Scotland, I'd go with:

1. Corbs
2. T Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

9. B Youngs/Care (depends upon club form)
10. Burns
11. Foden
12. Twelvetrees
13. Manu
14. Ashton
15. Brown

16. Hartley
17. Wilson
18. M Vunipola
19. Lawes
20. B Vunipola
21. Care/B Youngs (see above)
22. Farrell
23. Joseph

A bit of commentary on the key selections, I think we should give Youngs the shirt and let Hartley win it back - I think it would make them both play better, though I expect Hartley to have the shirt by the end of the tournament.

Foden is one of our best players so needs to come back in. I think he'll be a wing from now on (could be our Cory Jane). Brown was immense this Autumn - Goode gets all the plaudits but Brown has a superb attitude. He's a winner and always goes forward with the ball. He's the best 15 in the club game and has shown he can bring that to international level.

If we are playing Brown at 15 we need a playmaking 12 so Twelvetrees gets the nod. Harsh on Barritt, but let's be honest the midfield axis only looked good for 40 minutes out of 240 so we need to try something else there. Scotland at home is a chance to experiment. Same goes for Burns over Farrell. If the Gloucester pair don't step up then I can see Farrell, Barritt and Goode all returning.

Mako Vunipola over Marler on the bench as I think Marler needs to learn his scrummaging lessons in the club game. He's still young so has time to come back stronger.

Billy Vunipola is a beast so we need to get him involved asap. Could be great as an impact sub when Morgan tires. Like some other selections, I could see him dropping out for Haskell or Fearns when the tournament gets serious, but we need to get him experience now.

Overall, my selection may surprise people due to the number changes but imo now is the time to be bold and step up to the next level. The performances of Launchbury show that we can be bold and select young and in form club players.

I agree with much of what is said in there re the starting line-up Killer_B_6, although I'd change the bench a bit.

1.Corbs
2.Hartley (harsh on Youngs but Hartley brings experience which will help bring consistency)
3.Cole
4.Parling (thought Parling has been an unsung hero of the AI's putting in consistently good performances and a lot of grunt work)
5.Launchberry
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

9.Youngs
10.Burns

11.Foden
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Brown

16.Youngs 17.Marler 18.Wilson 19.Lawes 20.Croft/Haskell 21.Care 22.Farrell/Flood (depends on club form) 23.Joseph

Personally I'd bring Hartley back in if he's playing well to add a bit of experience to the side - the consistency he was showing prior to injury was impressive. Whilst I can't see Lancaster changing the backline (understandably after that match) I'd bring Twelvetrees and Burns into the starting line-up as I think they will get the best out of the other players there such as Tuilagi,Ashton and Foden.

Whilst Farrell and Barritt played very well vs NZ the facts we all stated before the match still stand in that Farrell whilst an excellent goal kicker and defender is best suited to getting the most out of an attacking game plan whilst Burns is. Barritt I feel bad for leaving out as I like him as a player. He's as solid as anyone in defence and will keep going all day everyday but in attack he still hasn't shown much in 10 tests now.

Twelvetrees I've been calling for awhile now as I think his main attributes are exactly what the side has been missing. He's got a great passing game, good vision/decision making in attack and often ignored a huge boot. His kicking game will take pressure of the 9,10,15 axis that does much of our kicking at the moment hopefully alleviating some of the aimless kicking we still saw this autumn (though saturday was much better for this).

As a non England fan - one observation is this. When a team plays as well as England did and several players who have struggled finaly come good, I think they have the shirt and it's up to returning (even established players) to win it back.

England are in the enviable position of having pretty good strength in depth in most positions. It would be a mistake not to stick with the players that just gave the English performance of the decade.

offload wrote:As a non England fan - one observation is this. When a team plays as well as England did and several players who have struggled finaly come good, I think they have the shirt and it's up to returning (even established players) to win it back.

England are in the enviable position of having pretty good strength in depth in most positions. It would be a mistake not to stick with the players that just gave the English performance of the decade.

Yes. That seems to be what Lancaster does as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see the same starting team in the first game of the 6 nations. With Hartley instead of Paice, Flood possibly in front of Burns but maybe not, Marler ahead of Vunipola, possibly Foden ahead of Joseph.

The same team has the right to play in the 6n's.

Personally Youngs deserves it ahead of Hartley as he has been aggressive, powerful and him and Morgan were real driving forces.

Launchbury proved that you shouldnt be scared to pick the youngsters if they are standing out in the prem..ie maybe Wade, Burns etc...

With regards to farrell...he was very impressive...but still has that desire to go boot first. This is why I belive Burns will be the No1 fly half..hes better than Flood. Let Farrell hasve the right to back this performance up in the 6n...but Burns must be on the bench.

Maybe Floods time is gone....

Having had a 2 days to reflect on the performance on Saturday and having also re-watched the game, I would make a slight change to my side in that I just can't drop Tom Youngs from the starting side. So Hartley has to fight to get his place back.

I would still bring Foden straight back in though as long term Brown won't be playing wing for England. He needs to try and get that full back position but much depends on our choice of inside centre as to whether he can can get ahead of Goode there.

Brown was another that made inroads everytime he got the ball...and hes a right aggressive little so and so...he got stuck in all over...

Maybe injuries will be a deciding factor on the fb spot as i wouldnt like to have to choose...

As a slight aside is there a more competitive Lions position than full back - England have 3 excellent options in Foden, Goode and Brown. Plus there's Halfpenny and Kearney - both top quality.

Perhaps an ability to play wing as well may edge Halfpenny, Foden and Kearney ahead...

Did anyone notice that for Barritts try he nearly messed it up passing to tuilagi too early...he had a guy just about on him...and another ahead...

That summed up to me that Barritts skills arent top level....i still think Twelvetrees could eventually take his spot....

Yes the Lions FB spot is a beauty...

I do think/beilive that all the players that played on saturday should not lose their place to players that have been injured.

The likes of Flood, Hartley, Marler, Croft, Foden, etc etc. Should have to win the shirt back. Under no cercumestances Should any of these players be aloud to walk straight back into the England team.

No player should be aloud in the team on reputation. Only if the player is on better form that the one who is in his place right now.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Did anyone notice that for Barritts try he nearly messed it up passing to tuilagi too early...he had a guy just about on him...and another ahead...

That summed up to me that Barritts skills arent top level....i still think Twelvetrees could eventually take his spot....

Yes the Lions FB spot is a beauty...

If he had passed too late and got tackled he wouldn't have been then for the return pass and it would have been a lineout.

Hhmmm not convinced Hammer...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hhmmm not convinced Hammer...

Not saying it was a perfectly timed pass. I'd have to watch it again to see really.

We scored...i guess thats the main point...but just thought he gave Tuiulagi an awful lot more to do than he needed.

It's an interesting one to judge because Tuilagi was tackled by Jane chasing him down. You see Barritt looking back to Tuilagi & Jane a few times before he passed and I think he was more concerned about allowing Tuilagi to continue at full pace and avoid being lassoed and dragged into touch by the tackle from behind rather than what Dagg might be able to do from head on. Jane did indeed get his man and I think Barritt delaying his pass to try and fix Dagg more would have made this even more of a certainty.

OK maybe im being a little harsh...ive been one of barritts few supporters...just thought it was an interesting play...

Footsoldier wrote:As a slight aside is there a more competitive Lions position than full back - England have 3 excellent options in Foden, Goode and Brown. Plus there's Halfpenny and Kearney - both top quality.

Perhaps an ability to play wing as well may edge Halfpenny, Foden and Kearney ahead...

Definitely one of the Lions strengths - 6 and 8 are quite tasty as well.

6 - Wood played himself right into contention over the last couple of matches, Kelly Brown is a class act, Ferris and Lydiate have been 6Ns player of the tournament for the last 2 years, and it's also O'Brien and Haskell's best position. Oh, and Robshaw might even be in shake-up if Gatland really doesn't see him as a 7.

8 - I think a strong case can be made for any of Heaslip, Faletau, Morgan or Denton. In part, it probably depends what the coaches are looking for from their 8, with Denton and Morgan being the big power carriers and Heaslip and Faletau offering a more rounded game

Could Launchbury have made himself a bolter?

Launchbury looks like the real deal. As long as he can keep Lawes out of the starting XV for the 6N, he's got to be in with a shout.

One point on Croft. He's looked less than his best internationally for several years until this year's 6N. I believe he needed a player with an exceptional workrate alongside him to free him up to do the things he does best (shades of Back / Hill, anyone?). Arguably, that could be either Wood or Robshaw - but it would be a huge call to drop either of them after Saturday.

Personally, I think they worked exceptionally well together and there are real benefits in having two players who can each cover all the basis. Wood hits harder and is a better lineout option, but Robshaw's the better link man and simply does so much work in every area.

itll be a damn miracle if they are all fit come the 6 nations. And this has always been the problem. England havent actually done too badly on the injury fornt the last couple of years (Flood aside whos constant injurioes should be a worry) compared to where they were 4 years ago with injuries and "problem players"

Geordiefalcon I think you are being overly harsh on Barritt. You can say the ifs and buts. He scored, him and Tuilagi linked up well. The move worked.

Remember Corey Jane was bearing down on Tuilagi. Tuilagi did well to take both Dagg and Jane out of the attack for Barritt to score.

Croft has shown himself to be a good player but I always wonder whether the backrow balance is right when he's in at 6.

The pack vs NZ was very good. Not sure I would change too much. I am sure having Parling in the lineout helped Youngs too.

I think the England backrow looked really good as it was starting against NZ. Haskell off the bench was excellent too.

Injury permitting, I'd keep it the same for the 6 Nations, definitely. Croft will really have to earn his shirt back to be honest, mand it all starts with solid and consistent club performances.

It's an excellent selection issue to have.

Like everyone else has been saying, Morgan carries excellently, but I would like to see his tackling improve. The first NZ try was on him.
Robshaw's link play, motor, carrying for the hard yards, tackling, rucking, and turnover rate are very very good, and improving every game.
Tom Wood? Well, I'm just a huge fan of his. His physicality against SA was much needed, and provided a completely different dimension to our forwared play. It almost seemed to gel the res tof the forwards. He's a quality outfit, and I definitely would not drop him. He comes across extremely well in the interviews too. Prior to the SA game when he was talking about 'manning up', it would have been easy for him not to live up to it, like so many players do. But he did it. So glad he's back playing after his long injury layout.

Im afraid Wood showed that when all is fit...he is the first choice 6 not Croft.

Maybe i am being a bit harsh Beshocked...dont forget ive supported Barritt on here whilst he was getting slated...just thought that one particular situation was curious.

I think most players who when they play their best look like they should be first choice.

Im sure youll hate them all in a few months.

Dowson and Palmer are surplus to requirements...a few other tweaks...but the EPS is unlikley to be changed significantly, pending the usual pre tournament death toll.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I think most players who when they play their best look like they should be first choice.

Im sure youll hate them all in a few months.

Dowson and Palmer are surplus to requirements...a few other tweaks...but the EPS is unlikley to be changed significantly, pending the usual pre tournament death toll.

Add Botha to your list of surplus to requirements, and clearly Youngs (T) has done enough to be one of the two hookers retained in the EPS so Webber and Paice are likely to drop out.

Other than that, I think the other positions that need looking at in the EPS are 12 and winger - we have 4 players (Barritt, Allen, 36 and JT-H) who can cover 12, which I think is probably 2 too many, especially given that we haven't been naming a 12 on the bench. Simplify it to Barritt and 36, and try to give Billy a bit of game time somewhere. This would free up space to allow another winger to be included in the EPS (even if we continue with the current policy of playing Ashton and 2 full backs - I'd simply like more outright pace in the squad).