Munster vs Saracens - Pool 1

The titanic Pool 1 clash. Pro12 vs AP. 4th in the Pro12 vs 2nd in the AP Irish vs English.


Munster vs Saracens.

Saturday 8th December 18:00

Venue: Thomond Park



This is a pretty epic clash that so far has no thread to discuss this.

In the Heineken Cup these sides have faced each other 3 times with Munster prevailing on all three occasions. All of them were nail biting tough encounters.

The last was the HC 2008 semi final with Munster prevailing 16-18 against Saracens at Coventry. Munster went on to lift the trophy that season.

Saracens are on 9 points after two games in Pool 1 having beaten Edinburgh 45-0 and Racing metro 30-13

Munster are on 6 points after two games in Pool 1 having lost to Racing Metro 22-17 and beaten Edinburgh 33-0


Saracens will be buoyed by last weekend - firstly the incredible win vs the All Blacks on Saturday - 4 Saracens players started the game and 3 of them got on the scoresheet (27 points in total), 2ndly on Sunday Saracens managed a tight win over title rivals Gloucester at home 28-23.

Munster's last match was a heavy win vs Glasgow.

Does anyone know what Munster's record at Thomond Park is?

Thoughts?

Munster have lost twice at Thomond in the HC, the last one being in last years quarter final against Ulster. I don't think, having watched Munster this season, they are the same force that they have been from 2006 onwards. They have declined and I struggle to see them getting out of this group. But would love them to prove me wrong as I support the other provinces after Ulster.

Artful Dodger only twice? That's pretty formidable though this Saracens side do have a very good away record. Struggle against Irish opponents though.

I can't understand the pessimism. Munster blew away the opposition last season in the HC pool stages.

Peter Stringer also has an inside track on Saracens having played for them for 3 months on loan.

How much of a loss will Paul O Connell be?

Munster have to win both games to have any chance.
If they lose the match next weekend they will have to get a TBP and deny a LBP to Sarries this week.

I expect munste to edge in by 5 but both teams to be less then 20 points.

That would leave Munster up against it to quailify.

I really worry that Sarries might just win this with a pen in the last five mins.

losing O'connel is bad but not the end of the world as we have two good second rows there.

If I was to guess the team:

Kilcoyne
Sherry
Botha
DOC
Donacha Ryan
POM
Dave O'Callaghan
Coughlan
Murray
ROG
Zebo
Downey
Earls
Howlett
Jones

The loss of POC, Ronan, Stander and O'Donnell is a huge blow especially to the back row. Even if POC was available it would allow Ryan to move to the backrow whereas either of Stander or O'Donnell could have won the MOM against Glasgow.

Personally I'd prefer to see Keatley at 10 and Lualala at 13 with ROG and Earls on the bench but I don't think that'll happen.

I'd even consider Earls on the wing, Zebo at 15 and Lualala at 13.

The crunch in this match though is weather Munster can break even up front given the missing players.

If Saracens are going to win in Thomond they'll need to start strong. Most sides are good at holding onto a lead and Saracens are no exception.


Likely Saracens XV

15.Goode
14.Ashton
13.Tomkins
12.Barritt
11.Strettle
10.Hodgson
9.Wigglesworth
8.Joubert
7.Fraser
6.Brown
5.Botha
4.Borthwick
3.Stevens
2.Brits
1.Gill

MunsterMac you don't really need to worry about the Saracens frontrow. It's not really that strong. It's the lineout and backrow that you need to be wary of.

Borthwick may be derided by many England fans but as a line out operator he's still one of the best around.

Backrow combo of Brown,Fraser and Joubert brings plenty of bite. Kelly Brown the Scottish captain doesn't really need any introduction.

Will Fraser is a bright young prospect in the backrow - been very good this season. He is not looked out of place vs more experienced and canny operators.

Ernst Joubert is in my opinion one of the best no 8s in the AP. Simply a decent all around no 8 who is also a decent option in the lineout.

ROG is my biggest concern for Munster. He'll put over the penalties but his all round game has gone downhill. Keatley is a better player by far now and JJ Hanrahan is probably better than him but the seniority system is still going under Penney.

The Munster scrum is looking strong this season with Kilcoyne and Botha in it. They're starting to dominate the opposition so that should be a good battle on saturday. If Botha gets injured it could be a disaster for Munster.

The Munster backrow is missing Dougal, Stander, O'Donnell and Ronan. Peter O'Mahonys return is a boost though. POM will probably play at 7 and Dave O'Callaghan go to 6. Dave OC is a big unit but looks a little inexperienced. Coughlan is just back from a long time out so its fair to say the backrow looks a little stretched. It wouldn't surprise me to see Donnacha Ryan put in at 6. The Saracens pack looks bigger.

Munster will play their usual side to side game and try and stretch the Saracens defense. Munster havn't adapted to it fully yet but they've looked good in patches. Munster will try and play as fast a pace as possible to try stretch the Saracens defense.

The fullback choice should also be interesting. Felix Jones is a better attacker while Denis Hurley is a more solid fullback.

If the weather conditions turn bad then advantage Saracens.

Profitius I think it's a bit of a myth Saracens prefer bad weather.

Both of Saracens losses in the AP this season have been in bad weather.

The Saracens pack isn't physically very big but it's very tenacious.

Munster needs to make this a game about the scrum in my opinion. Opposition have hurt Saracens a lot there.

On the other hand if Saracens can make this area a non factor then they will be a much better position to impose their gameplan upon the opposition.


Is ROG good enough to unlock the Saracens defence?

beshocked wrote:Profitius I think it's a bit of a myth Saracens prefer bad weather.

Both of Saracens losses in the AP this season have been in bad weather.

The Saracens pack isn't physically very big but it's very tenacious.

Munster needs to make this a game about the scrum in my opinion. Opposition have hurt Saracens a lot there.

On the other hand if Saracens can make this area a non factor then they will be a much better position to impose their gameplan upon the opposition.


Is ROG good enough to unlock the Saracens defence?

Its not that Saracens are good in bad weather. I'm thinking more along the lines of how bad Munster have been in poor weather this season. TThe Racing Metro match and the Scarlets match the other week are two examples.

ROG will try to get rid of the ball as fast as possible. If the pass isn't on he'll kick it. His kicking has gone backwards, his defense is worse, his running ability was never great but its worse now. Saracens should target him or do what the Welsh teams do by blocking off his passing options, make him run down a channel and flatten him in a tackle.

Keatley is a little more inconsistent but would offer more in attack and defense.

I think the reason ROG will be picked is his experience and the fact that he played well against Racing before going off injured but I think we're rapidly approaching the time when Keatley will be first choice.

This doesn't fill me with joy either as I have serious doubts about Keatley's abilities / composure at the highest level.

Like alot of people I'm staggered that JJ hasn't been more involved since his try scoring MOM debut a few weeks ago.

I actually think No 10 is Munster's worst position.

Serious looking backs though and I tip them to edge the back to back (5-4)

Best of luck.

beshocked wrote:
Likely Saracens XV

15.Goode
14.Ashton
13.Tomkins
12.Barritt
11.Strettle
10.Hodgson
9.Wigglesworth
8.Joubert
7.Fraser
6.Brown
5.Botha
4.Borthwick
3.Stevens
2.Brits
1.Gill

No place for the World Player of the year?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Likely Saracens XV

15.Goode
14.Ashton
13.Tomkins
12.Barritt
11.Strettle
10.Hodgson
9.Wigglesworth
8.Joubert
7.Fraser
6.Brown
5.Botha
4.Borthwick
3.Stevens
2.Brits
1.Gill

No place for the World Player of the year?

Dan Carter?

Likely Munster team:

1. Kilcoyne
2. Sherry
3. Botha
4. DOC
5. Ryan
6. Dave O'Callaghan
7. POM
8. Coughlan
9. Murray
10. ROG
11. Zebo
12. Downey
13. Earls
14. Howlett (c)
15. Keatley

Subs:
Varley, Du Preez, Archer, Holland, Butler, Williams, Laulala, Jones.

Way - hey Munster's chances have just improved 10 fold!!

This just in:

"Due to injury, Romain Poite (France) has been replaced as match referee for Munster clash with Saracens at Thomond Park Stadium by his French colleague Pascal Gauzère."

That news means this game is going to be shocking, if he's the French ref that I think he is then he loves to give penalties. Bye bye any flow, bye bye any tempo.

Should be a very tough game between two teams who have a lot of tenacity. Home advantage should mean that Munster scrape it but that'll be good enough for Saracens.

Thank god Poite is out. Munster have a better chance now.

This will be a tight one I think. Not convinced at all with Munster this season, if their pack can hold their own they should just have enough at home but I fear for them in the return leg.

Hope they can put in a vintage display here. Good luck

Munster will do well to win this game, that is a very good Saracens side.

If Saracens have done their homework they will find it very easy to stifle Rog and the rest of the Munster backline.
Murray had better be fit as they will need him to perform really well to win. Teams have realised that Rog doesn't
pose a running threat and is not going to break so they ignore him when he gets the ball and instead fan out meaning
when Rog passes the second player gets man and ball stopping them getting any momentum. It was interesting last
weekend that Earls seemed to be playing at 12 rather than 13, and it was him who was breaking the gainline and
offloading to Downey. Surely it should be the other way around. It was also clear in the game that Munster are trying
to avoid using Rog as the first receiver as much as possible.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchcentre/19731.php

Some really interesting match stats.

Match Facts
• Saracens have a 100% success rate at the lineout this season (on their own throw), retaining ball on all 23 throws so far as well as stealing a competition high six opposition throws.
• Munster are also joint-top of the lineouts stolen chart, averaging three per game themselves.
• Munster have retained possession at 97% of rucks and mauls, a tournament high.
• Charlie Hodgson is the top points scorer after two rounds, scoring 40 so far including one try, seven conversions and seven penalties.




http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/earls-takes-centre-stage-for-crucial-saracens-test-3318496.html

This gives us all an idea of what the Munster side is going to line up like.

Does Dave O Callaghan have much experience in the backrow?



Jenifer mcladyboy you never know Farrell could start at 10,12 or 13 but I personally would leave him on the bench. He's an excellent player to bring on to close the game. Plus he can cover those 3 positions.

Hodgson and Goode will be the playmakers in attack getting the backline ticking hopefully.

I hope Tomkins is retained at 13 because he's slowly growing into the role and I heard he had a good game vs Gloucester.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/earls-takes-centre-stage-for-crucial-saracens-test-3318496.html

This gives us all an idea of what the Munster side is going to line up like.

So exactly as we speculated yesterday then.

Owen Farrell at 13. My optimism has vanished.

Barritt and Farrell partnership is ineffective. Munster will love this!

Why can't the coaches make the most sensible decisions?

Farrell is not a 13. Stop picking him there!

Has the team been named then?

From Munsterrugby.ie

Munster: F Jones; D Howlett capt, K Earls, J Downey, S Zebo; R O'Gara, C Murray; D Kilcoyne, M Sherry, BJ Botha; D O'Callaghan, D Ryan; Dave O'Callaghan, P O'Mahony, J Coughlan.

Replacements: D Varley, W du Preez, S Archer, B Holland, P Butler, D Williams, I Keatley, C Laulala.

Don't understand why they're persisting with Williams ahead of Stringer.

MunsterMac,

While Williams isn't the answer, the game has changed so much and coupled with his aging, Stringer is not capable of Rabo level, never mind Heineken Cup. Sad fact and he was & is a faithful servant, but he should have retired at the end of last season. His experience might be useful but he is not as sharp as he once was and with a pack that is very likely going to be under pressure, I'd back Williams to fark up less that he would, should either be required to replace Murray.

Sad facts but the game has simply passed the man by, and unlike ROG and Donners, he hasn't adapted at all to the changes. Not suggesting DOC and ROG have reinvented themselves, but for a while at least, they changed what they did and upped their workrate and ROG in particular, has run with the ball and uffloaded more in the last 4 seasons than in the previous 8. Still crap at it mind, but at least he tried to adapt.

Sorry debaters but I can't agree with practically anything you say in relation to Stringer.

I think it has become fashionable to say that the game has changed and passed certain players by but fundamentally all you want your scrum half to do is get to the breakdown as quick as possible and get the pass away without delay - both of which Stringer is still superb at.

You could feel the relief at Thomond last Saturday when Williams was replaced by Stringer who then proceded to give a masterclass in the above.

His speed between breakdowns was extraordinary as was his marshalling of the pack.

Still looks as fit as ever and would be good for at least a 30 / 40 minute stint.

Fair enough Mac, and I fully accept that Strings was good at the weekend, but the Cardiff game a few weeks back was tight affair made tighter by a mistake by Stringer, the type of mistake that can be replicated on a less than clement night in a crucial HC game. Obviously Williams is not within an asses roar of turning in a flawless performance, especially with it being a HC match, but he does more with the ball and keeps the opposition more honest than Stringer does, which is vital given ROG is at 10 too. Basically two half backs unlikely to do anyting other than pass or pass/kick will put way too much pressure on Downey to get over the gain line or Earls to 'do somethig magic' to make a line break.

Williams is much more a jack-of-all-master-of-none than Stringer is, but even stringer having an amazing passing game relies on our backrow providing quick ball 70-80% of the time and i just dont see that happening this weekend. Would love to be wrong, but 50% or less means that one in two of our breakdowns is slow ball with a deep standing Outhalf. Shoddy tackling cannot thus be counted upon to provide us with line breaks and tries out wide. So Williams breaking two or thre times, checks at least one of the first/second defenders and so you increase the liklihood of the backs creating one-on-ones and mismatches as well as overlaps using Zebo, Jones, & Howlett.

Oh Allright then....

I have to do everything.

15 Alex Goode
14 Chris Ashton
13 Owen Farrell
12 Brad Barritt
11 David Strettle
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Neil de Kock
1 Rhys Gill
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick
5 Mouritz Botha
6 Kelly Brown
7 Will Fraser
8 Ernst Joubert

16 John Smit
17 Mako Vunipola
18 Petrus du Plessis
19 George Kruis
20 Andy Saull
21 Richard Wigglesworth
22 Joel Tomkins
23 Chris Wyles

MunsterMac wrote:Sorry debaters but I can't agree with practically anything you say in relation to Stringer.

I think it has become fashionable to say that the game has changed and passed certain players by but fundamentally all you want your scrum half to do is get to the breakdown as quick as possible and get the pass away without delay - both of which Stringer is still superb at.

You could feel the relief at Thomond last Saturday when Williams was replaced by Stringer who then proceded to give a masterclass in the above.

His speed between breakdowns was extraordinary as was his marshalling of the pack.

Still looks as fit as ever and would be good for at least a 30 / 40 minute stint.

I think you need to rewatch the match if you think Stringer gave a masterclass in anything. He was indeed an improvement on Williams, but the game has definitely moved on and left him behind. He was got a number of times by Glasgow forwards which impacted on the quality of his passes. His pass is still as quick as it used to be, but he is no longer as consistently accurate as he used to be. To play with Rog and Stringer in the same team is not viable with the way the game has gone.

valjester wrote:

MunsterMac wrote:Sorry debaters but I can't agree with practically anything you say in relation to Stringer.

I think it has become fashionable to say that the game has changed and passed certain players by but fundamentally all you want your scrum half to do is get to the breakdown as quick as possible and get the pass away without delay - both of which Stringer is still superb at.

You could feel the relief at Thomond last Saturday when Williams was replaced by Stringer who then proceded to give a masterclass in the above.

His speed between breakdowns was extraordinary as was his marshalling of the pack.

Still looks as fit as ever and would be good for at least a 30 / 40 minute stint.

I think you need to rewatch the match if you think Stringer gave a masterclass in anything. He was indeed an improvement on Williams, but the game has definitely moved on and left him behind. He was got a number of times by Glasgow forwards which impacted on the quality of his passes. His pass is still as quick as it used to be, but he is no longer as consistently accurate as he used to be. To play with Rog and Stringer in the same team is not viable with the way the game has gone.

I disagree with this.
Stringer supplies quick ball and excellent decision making.
Stringer does not supply much in defence, a kicking game or a running threat.

Stringer was great pre 2009 but as soon as the tackle-ruck rules changed and favoured the defending team Stringer's skill set was never going to be used that often and his weaknesses were going to be exploited hugely. TOL (a big scrumhalf) took over.

When the laws changed again more recently (2010) attacking ball became gold. 9's who can get to the breakdown and get the ball in to the 10's hands (be it quick pass or quick service or both) are now vital to a lot of teams. Look at the best 9's in the world at the moment, Smith, Pienaar, Genia all quick at getting the ball out when necessary.

I totally agree that having two solely distributing players at 9-10 is a bad idea. But it is much more crucial to have the game varied at 10 other than 9. ROG should not be playing, IMO Stringer should be getting much more game time. I think Keatley would love to get the quality of service that Stringer can provide.

Now Stringer is nothing on what he was in 2007 but to say the game has moved beyond Stringer is not strictly true, it had and now it has moved back to suit his strengths. Stringer doesn't really have more than 50mins in him I'd guess, not in a top game but he is a quality player and many teams would be lucky to have him.

I was going to say something about Murray after his first "pass" at the start. But I'll button it until the end of the game. See if he gets better.

Well last night proved what I and others have been saying for over a year, ROG is not up to it anymore. The opinion seems to have reached the general masses as well. I'm beginning to think this is an IRFU move, Penney doesn't seem stupid enough to play a guy completely unsuited to his gameplan.

Well last night proved what I and others have been saying for over a year, ROG is not up to it anymore. The opinion seems to have reached the general masses as well.

And yet having listened to every bit of post match analysis after the match and yesterday virtually every former pro player said that ROG played very well, justified his place and proved vital to Munster winning the match.

But what do those idiots know compared to the general masses.

I hope ROG starts next week. Kicking 5/5 is obviously good but most were sitters.

He stunts the Munster backline.

Saracens did oblige you though by picking Farrell at 13. I hope they aren't so generous with silly team selections this week.

I expect and want to see a far better performance from Saracens.

Things certainly didn't go as planned at the breakdown, lineout and of course place kicking. It's pretty strange that with even them all failing miserably that Saracens still could have won the game if they didn't butcher overlaps.

What's the general thoughts from Munster fans? Are you pleased? Optimistic for next week?

I was very disappointed at the time that we gave away the bonus point but on reflection I don't think it'll matter.

Munster know that their whole season hinges on the match next Sunday and after losing to Racing in the opening match the away match against Saracens was always going to be the crunch match.

If they can win next Sunday they'll be confident enough of closing out the group away to Edinburgh and at home to Racing.

Saracens will be tough but Munster have a lot of form in these kind of situations (Northampton, Perpignan etc).

MunsterMac,

I can't agree. ROG was poor on Saturday. Made several mistakes (not that a few others didn't err too, to be fair to him) but worst of all, poor decision making. I like it when munster go for it and try to be aggressive in every area of the pitch, but twice he kicked short drop outs, one in each half and twice we lost and seeded possesion (and the second half incident ultimately game Saracens the LBP) and that was his call.

He made passing errors and while he certainly kicked well and did some things right, I just dont have the same level of assurance with him as I used to. And Saracens are going to watch the video of the match, learn from their breakdown deficiencies and line speed in resepect of getting to ROG.

Murray had amixed game some excellent, some poor but was vital in mopping around the fringes. Coughlan was absolutely immense and for a guy coming back from injury it was even more impressive. Earls looked dangerous every time he got the ball and beat a lot of first up tacklers with double digits on their back, not just mis-matched fatties, so that was good to see.

We need to be more clinical next week when we get through the first up defence and I expect that the Saracens lineout will resume normal service too. Ours wasn't as shaky but still some inaccuracies all the same. Donnacha Ryan had another huge game though in the engine room and that always good to see.

I'd agree with MunsterMac to the extent that it would be sloppy thinking on the part of Saracens if they thought Munster were targeting their own home game as one not to lose. They'll have been targeting next week more as one to very much win.

So Saracens might be confident enough on home ground and it might be the way the game ends up with a win for them, but if I and all of us know Munster of old - HC is always the competition they truly want and they know the importance of away wins. They'll be hungry, they won't be defending.

Secret, agreed. This Saracens team was meant to be something truly special and lets face it, this is not avintage Munster team so expecting would be too much, but Saracens would have travelled with a sense of confidence. So to be beaten, to have their excellent lineout distrupted and to be shoved around a few times in the scrum was not on their script.

So next week battle will resume, I firmly believe that Saracens will be better, but then again, so too will Munster. The LBP is the minimum but another away win would be far more preferable and that till be the mindest of the players & managament alike.

Have to say Im delighted with that performance on Sat. Back to the old days of the pack fronting up with some serious agression. Thought we should have put Sarries away half way through second half but fair to them as they never got flustered. They were extremely composed and measured slowing the game down when required just to take the heat out of the crowd.

DOC2 and Coughlan were immense.

Thought the scrum was treated harsly as we totally matched what was supposed to be a far superior scrum. The amount of times the Sarries hooker popped up first yet decsision went against BJ was baffling. Killer is getting better with each game.

Before Sat I thought we might win in Thomond and would certainly lose the away leg. However I now have some optimism that we might come away with a win.

Blue, the only conclusion regarding the hooker popping up first is that he did so because Botha was under his chin, and therefore not scrummaging square & straight. Now, given every no. 3 does this now and again, I can understand frustration at inconsistancy but sometimes the penalties were deserved, be it at scrum or breakdown, but a couple of them were annoying and that ref loved having the whistle.

The pack was old school, but thankfully we still moved it wide and kept the tempo up with ball in hand so the evolution/revolution goes on. The hits were beautifully savage to watch on both sides. A good game of winter rugby.

Zebo and Jones are really maturing and Earls is becoming more of the 13 that he wants to be. his passing is still the missing link and too often lets him and Munster or Ireland down, but defenders beaten in his last 4 matches must be in the high 20's plus. We need the backrow to gel a bit more and run the trailers that Earl's game suits best (obviously Dougie, Zebo & Jones can/should be filling here too. Murray as well) so that when he beats the first one or two tacklers, he can offload rather than go to deck and recycle, as quick as it has been at times this year, offloads are more advantageous again.

As you say, I look forward with far more optimism than I'd have expected but I was confident enough of a win on Saturday. Shouldn't have shipped the LBP though. Mistake by ROG/the pack for not drilling that 22 circa 75 mins 60 metres.

debaters

You take me wrong. I was just pointing out the gulf between the opinions of the man on the street and those who have played the game at the highest level.

Sometimes I think us men on the street don't get the big picture and don't always see everything for what it is.

Did I want ROG to start on Saturday. No.

Do I think ROG has a superb game Saturday? No, but it was good enough.

Would I pick him again for that match given hindsight? Absolutely.

Would I pick him for next Sunday. Without a doubt especially as the brave new world of Rob Penny has been dialled back a little in the HC since Paris and in the first half hour against Saracens next Sunday it'll be even more so.

The match next Sunday will be won or lost up front in the first 30 minutes and regardless of his current weaknesses ROG is the man I want at 10 guiding things.

BlueMuff wrote: The amount of times the Sarries hooker popped up first yet decsision went against BJ was baffling. Killer is getting better with each game..

not a comment on this game - as i did not see it. But why do people always assume that the hooker who pops up first was committing an offence. there are a number of illegalities that can be committed by the opposition that can cause this.


PS Did I really read that pundits reckoned Sarries had the better scrum? They usually have a great line-out, but come scrummage time they often struggle.

LondonTiger wrote:

BlueMuff wrote: The amount of times the Sarries hooker popped up first yet decsision went against BJ was baffling. Killer is getting better with each game..

not a comment on this game - as i did not see it. But why do people always assume that the hooker who pops up first was committing an offence. there are a number of illegalities that can be committed by the opposition that can cause this.


PS Did I really read that pundits reckoned Sarries had the better scrum? They usually have a great line-out, but come scrummage time they often struggle.

The fact that whichever flanker was packing down behind BJ was boring in under the sarries LH at every scrum is why they appeared to pop up first

Londontiger funnily enough I felt the Saracens scrum was stronger than the Munster one. The scrum was a mess though.

BlueMuff you thought Saracens were composed? I thought they were completely the opposite. Looked really unsettled. Couldn't generate any sort of rhythm or momentum. Some credit of course should go for Munster but silly stuff like no one actually calling and catching the high ball on a couple of occasions was sloppy. This coupled with the confusion at the set piece and breakdown and awful place kicking led to a very poor performance.

The only positive is that Saracens had more opportunities than Munster despite all the numerous failings. I feel that Saracens can make far more improvements than Munster in their performance.

Home advantage seemed to be an important factor here. Sure Munster will probably get a few fans to Vicarage Road but VR is no Thomond Park!

One of the worst Saracens performances this season.

Can't believe that they played Farrel at 13 again. Really should have started him at 10 to keep that good feeling from the AI's going, Hodgson had a pretty average game in attack to boot.

Sarries looked like the Pem team rather then the Euro team we were expecting, just shows how much Tomkins brings to the side I suppose.

Brits and Joubert both need big games next week as they were surprisingly poor. Was Brown (the Scots flanker) playing?

beshocked wrote:

Home advantage seemed to be an important factor here. Sure Munster will probably get a few fans to Vicarage Road but VR is no Thomond Park!

I think Munster, with 5 Semi Final appearances and 4 Final appearances since 2000, are historically well aware of the fact that Vicarage Road (and places like it across Europe) is no Thomond. But winning is such places confirms pedigree - and certainly Munster will have enough experience in and around the fringes of the team not to feel too intimidated by the VR's 'welcome'.

Question. Even though I do my homework, I still feel there will always be a guy who says "Nope, where did you pick up that info, back of a cornflakes box?" So it's a question rather than a statement. Saracens have only played two games at their home ground this season in AP? Am I right? And if I am is that normal in AP? Surprised me actually.

I think the diference is the amount of away fans Irish teams take with them in the HC.

I didn't see many Sarries fans on Saturday and when the team came back out onto the field to thank the fans at the end it took a while for them to find a few that they could clap to.

No one will have any trouble finding the Munster fans next Sunday and it does make a difference especially as away fans tend to be very vocal.

Yappysnap it seems the AIs has meant a loss of momentum IMO. Most of those guys involved in the internationals were poor. Brown as part of a backrow that had a game to forget. I hope these poor performances from key players is just a one off.

Tomkins is who I would have played but it was mostly the big match players not turning up for whatever reason.

Secretfly only twice because Saracens are getting a new ground - Barnet Copthall (Allianz Park). They decided to play their games all around the place - e.g. Twickenham, Wembley,Baudoin Stadium, even MK stadium coming up!

I think Munster might be intimidated by the lack of a "welcome". VR is not the most desirable place to go to and that comes from a Saracens fan. If you do go to the game I would spend most of your time in London. Get in and out of VR asap!


Munstermac I was there. Result aside I had a good time. Thomond Park is an awesome rugby stadium. Had a nice chat with some Munster fans. All very jovial. Much nicer than VR.

Haven't had a chance to watch the game, wondering if it's worth a watch? Out of interest, how did the England boys play? Goode continue his good form from the AIs? Hearing a lot of good stuff regarding Will Fraser