The HC negotiations look to be going down to the wire.....

by Guest Tue 11 Dec 2012, 11:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/dec/11/english-french-clubs-heineken-cup-talks

Little or no progress appears to have been made to date despite various deals being offered to the French clubs. Which side of the demands/debate is going to come up with an offer or conceed on individual issues??

I don't particularly like the idea of an Anglo French competition but is it any nearer?

Prepare for a bland media statement tomorrow.......

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 14 Dec 2012, 1:48 pm

neilthom7 wrote:4. If that points to a reduction of teams and Sale is also at fault surely England should be reducing their teams too?

Under the Franglo proposals they are

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 1:50 pm

Loving the fact PSW is trying to jump into this every way he can and is being ignored by all sides...

Kepp trying PSW

by AlastairW Fri 14 Dec 2012, 1:51 pm

neilthom7 wrote:Alistair that was kind of uncalled for mate? For several reasons
1. MrsP has always been an insightful poster, just because she disagrees with you does not mean she is scraping the bottom of the barrel you are not the king of rugby pal
2. Edinburgh have a serious amount of injuries this season but that I guess would stand in your way so ignore that.
3. MrsP has already pointed out your logic is very flawed
4. If that points to a reduction of teams and Sale is also at fault surely England should be reducing their teams too?

1) no she's not, she's one-eyed in extremis
2) such is the game, every team gets injuries, but i guess that stands in your way.
3) I've pointed out her's as well
4) *WE HAVE A BINGO* - Edinburgh and Sale have been both been atrocious. Next year Edinburgh will be straight back into the HC regardless of form, and Sale won't; i'd say rightfully, they haven't earned it. Of course every nation of the 6N needs representation, but as it stands competition doesn't matter at all. It's based on a 20 years model that is now horribly out of date, which is the Franglo stand point, less teams, less games, make it top flight. If that means reducing an English team, then yes, i'd certainly be game for that. Re-organise the Challenge cup and make the HC proper elite rugby.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 14 Dec 2012, 1:54 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Loving the fact PSW is trying to jump into this every way he can and is being ignored by all sides...

Kepp trying PSW

Well Im glad you noticed that noones noticed me. I think the problem is I keep using facts. Ill stick to bickering in future

by MrsP Fri 14 Dec 2012, 1:54 pm

I think we were just trying to pull you back PSW!

Very Happy

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 1:55 pm

Al

But at least Embra have proved recently they can compete in the HC, Sale competed in the AP last year and have proved fodder in europe, so this goes totally against what you are trying to say.

RE Mrs P, commands way more respect than most

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 1:55 pm

Or just post sensibly mate, not your thing usually I know but give it a go

by neilthom7 Fri 14 Dec 2012, 1:55 pm

Ok the plans of having the 6 are basically penalising the Rabo for actually doing what we all talk about and trying to help out unions. they took in the Italians when no other league would because shock horror it might improve rugby in Europe not just in one country.
How about 8 Rabo teams? 1 guaranteed from each country and 4 others based solely on league regardless of country. That way the worst 4 teams in the Rabo would drop out into the Amlin.

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 1:59 pm

neilthom

So your saying 66% of the 6N and euro community they get 33% of representation into the club euro comp?

by neilthom7 Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:00 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:4. If that points to a reduction of teams and Sale is also at fault surely England should be reducing their teams too?

Under the Franglo proposals they are

Really, oh ok how so I must have missed this?
I wish people would stop talking about Franglo too the French and English are not joint in this they want what is best for their own not each others.

by neilthom7 Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:03 pm

1) no she's not, she's one-eyed in extremis

[/quote]

AH that's you pal, I'm not sure what that word at the end is meant to be though. Where are the mods I have been on 2 posts recently where all this guy has done is be very abusive towards MrsP for doing nothing other than disagreeing with him

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:05 pm

Lets just get back to the issue, leave mods and disagreements out of it shall we?

by neilthom7 Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:07 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:neilthom

So your saying 66% of the 6N and euro community they get 33% of representation into the club euro comp?

Well it's a compromise mate it would promote a bit more competition without being unreasonably low numbers and you would still have guaranteed representation from each country. I think it would be fair but that is of course just my opinion. I can't be accused of being bias towards English ways either as I am from and living in and support Ulster. But again it is just my opinion. Also maths isn't my strong point but wouldn't 8 teams be more than 33% again I could be wrong on this.

by AlastairW Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:12 pm

neilthom7 wrote: AH that's you pal, I'm not sure what that word at the end is meant to be though. Where are the mods I have been on 2 posts recently where all this guy has done is be very abusive towards MrsP for doing nothing other than disagreeing with him

Brilliant! call me the same thing, then moan about mods not bashing me. Pot. Kettle. Black. There's a little 'report' button on posts, feel free to use it on any of mine.

I'll just sit here twirling my moustache and swishing my black panto cloke, that seems to be the stereo-type that everyone seems to love - regardless if the truth is something different.

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:14 pm

Off of a 24 team tournament I meant.

I can see the issues from both sides tbh, but I just can't get past how greedy the PRL are being here. If I was the Rabo nations right now I would be plotting structure to return to the club game each (acheivable or not) and use that as leverage to claim the same amount of HC spots as England and France, therefore everyone loses out, but if the Rabo are going to lose out anyway then what does it matter?

As a negotiation tool though only.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:14 pm

neilthom7 wrote:Ok the plans of having the 6 are basically penalising the Rabo for actually doing what we all talk about and trying to help out unions. they took in the Italians when no other league would because shock horror it might improve rugby in Europe not just in one country.
How about 8 Rabo teams? 1 guaranteed from each country and 4 others based solely on league regardless of country. That way the worst 4 teams in the Rabo would drop out into the Amlin.

I posted this on another thread, but I believe that one of the things being talked over is 6 teams, one each, plus the 2 highest non-automatically qualitifed. So taking last seasons table that would be;

Leinster (Best Irish)
Ospreys (Best Welsh)
Glasgow (Best Scottish)
Treviso (Best Italian)
Munster (Highest place non-auto qualified)
Scarlets (Second Highest place non-auto qualified)
Ulster?? (qualified via Leinster winning HEC last time round??)

So missing out from the Rabo entries would be Ulster (??), Blues, Edinburgh, Connacht, Zebre.

However if we entered 8 teams, based on Best from each nation, and then the next best four sides. Then that would give us;

Leinster (Best Irish)
Ospreys (Best Welsh)
Glasgow (Best Scottish)
Treviso (Best Italian)
Munster (extra 1)
Scarlets (extra 2)
Ulster (extra 3)
Blues (extra 4)
Connacht?? (HEC winners spot??)

Only realistically dropping Edinburgh and Zebre to the lower teir.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:14 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:neilthom

So your saying 66% of the 6N and euro community they get 33% of representation into the club euro comp?

Ah but therein lies the lies...the rabo is less than 33% of the "top divison" teams, and less than 33% of viewers....and thats only if we ignore that the big 3 leagues / 6 natoins dont comprise 100% of the European rugby market.

Im sure theres a reason why certain Unions are dead set against individual TV rights negiotiations for each Union or club.

by broadlandboy Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:14 pm

Is the HEC a club or union competition?That is the main problem.It started with only Ireland entering provinces but now ,in reality, only France/England entering clubs

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:16 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Off of a 24 team tournament I meant.

I can see the issues from both sides tbh, but I just can't get past how greedy the PRL are being here. If I was the Rabo nations right now I would be plotting structure to return to the club game each (acheivable or not) and use that as leverage to claim the same amount of HC spots as England and France, therefore everyone loses out, but if the Rabo are going to lose out anyway then what does it matter?

As a negotiation tool though only.

Or have the old club structure back and have a smaller number of regions/super clubs sat above that which soley exist for a 16 team HC tournament. Y'know, kinda like the Sanzars do?

by Kingshu Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:20 pm

broadlandboy wrote:yes it is about greed,the Rabo unions want to keep getting at least 50% more per team than the French/English clubs.

Easy England reduces Prem to 8 teams, they get about same per team as Rabo unions and 75% of thier top flight teams get into the H-cup like some Rabo unions.

Prob solved everyone happy?

If English/French don't want to do that, yet Irish and Welsh are, you can't complain. Can't hold it over us that we've had to do something that you don't want to do.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:22 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Is the HEC a club or union competition?That is the main problem.It started with only Ireland entering provinces but now ,in reality, only France/England entering clubs

In realitiy what is the difference between a club and region? Isn't there a thing where a player can be dual-registered to a Jeff and Championship side? Surely that is pretty much the same as the regions/provinces? After all I could probably count the number of times someone like George North or Jon Davies have played for Llanelli RFC (or Llandovery RFC or Carmarthen Quins) since they have been in the Scarlets HEC squad. Also the HEC needs teams to announce a HEC squad, so every side names a limited amount of players for this so it is not like the regions/provinces have any advantages there.

by neilthom7 Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:27 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:Ok the plans of having the 6 are basically penalising the Rabo for actually doing what we all talk about and trying to help out unions. they took in the Italians when no other league would because shock horror it might improve rugby in Europe not just in one country.
How about 8 Rabo teams? 1 guaranteed from each country and 4 others based solely on league regardless of country. That way the worst 4 teams in the Rabo would drop out into the Amlin.

I posted this on another thread, but I believe that one of the things being talked over is 6 teams, one each, plus the 2 highest non-automatically qualitifed. So taking last seasons table that would be;

Leinster (Best Irish)
Ospreys (Best Welsh)
Glasgow (Best Scottish)
Treviso (Best Italian)
Munster (Highest place non-auto qualified)
Scarlets (Second Highest place non-auto qualified)
Ulster?? (qualified via Leinster winning HEC last time round??)

So missing out from the Rabo entries would be Ulster (??), Blues, Edinburgh, Connacht, Zebre.

However if we entered 8 teams, based on Best from each nation, and then the next best four sides. Then that would give us;

Leinster (Best Irish)
Ospreys (Best Welsh)
Glasgow (Best Scottish)
Treviso (Best Italian)
Munster (extra 1)
Scarlets (extra 2)
Ulster (extra 3)
Blues (extra 4)
Connacht?? (HEC winners spot??)

Only realistically dropping Edinburgh and Zebre to the lower teir.

Yes that's right I guess but Dragons are already in Amlin so lets not forget them. Also Rabo teams will not win it every year and that is performance in the cup based so I don't see what the problem would be there because if the English or French won then they would get the same.

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:28 pm

Kingshu

How dare you tal;k opf reason when you mention changing the perfect entities that are the AP and Top14, they're not the ones with the problem so why should they....

Oh wait Laugh

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:29 pm

AlastairW wrote:
neilthom7 wrote: AH that's you pal, I'm not sure what that word at the end is meant to be though. Where are the mods I have been on 2 posts recently where all this guy has done is be very abusive towards MrsP for doing nothing other than disagreeing with him

Brilliant! call me the same thing, then moan about mods not bashing me. Pot. Kettle. Black. There's a little 'report' button on posts, feel free to use it on any of mine.

I'll just sit here twirling my moustache and swishing my black panto cloke, that seems to be the stereo-type that everyone seems to love - regardless if the truth is something different.

Take a chill pill lads. Pretty much everyone on this thread is being passionately one-eyed - it's one of the great things about the HEC in general

by broadlandboy Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:33 pm

A club runs itself,a region/province has large union influence.
Some posters claim the Hec is a Union comp but then their teams have players from other nations in them so not a union team.

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:36 pm

Noones mentione dit being a union comp, but who owns the ERC?

by MrsP Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:38 pm

Well the IRFU has to "okay" any contract given to an NIQ player for any of the Provinces so it is very much a Union competition. I think they also receive a chunk of any Prize money and TV money.

It has nothing to do with the nationality of the players in the clubs or Provinces.

by broadlandboy Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:40 pm

You say no one mentioned it being a Union comp but seem to want all unions represented. Which is it?

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:41 pm

Who owns the ERC?

by MrsP Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:46 pm

ERC Board of Directors

France Jean-Pierre Lux (ERC Chairman)

France

Michel Palmié (FFR)

René Bouscatel (LNR)

England

Rob Andrew (RFU)

Peter Wheeler (Premiership Rugby)

Ireland

Peter Boyle (IRFU)
Philip Browne (IRFU)

Italy

Orazio Arancio (FIR)
Fabrizio Gaetaniello (FIR)

Scotland

Mark Dodson (Scottish Rugby)
Ian McLauchlan (Scottish Rugby)

Wales

Roger Lewis (WRU)
Stuart Gallacher (RRW)

It's all PSW's fault!!!!

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:47 pm

broadlandboy wrote:You say no one mentioned it being a Union comp but seem to want all unions represented. Which is it?

Come on Unions and Nations, its the same thing. I think the majority of people want to see a minimum of one team from each of the Nations involved in the 6 Nations entered into the HEC. However, the Unions of the Nations are actually the ones who can decide with teams are allowed to enter. The RFU have decided that the top 6 sides of the Jeff are going to be entered into the HEC, the FFR decided that the top 6 Top14 sides can be entered have the IRFU and WRU have decided that their allocation of 3 sides will go to the top placed three sides from their Nation in the Rabo, and the SRU and FIR (is that the italian one?) have decided that they have an allocation of two teams so they will only have two teams and enter both of them. HOWEVER IF the RFU decided that they wanted to enter Leicester, London Irish, Wasps, Gloucester, Bath and Quins every year that would have been within their rights too.

The problem is that some people are getting so bogged down in provinces/regions/club and unions/nations/leagues and in fighting to try and understand that the Heiniken Europen Cup should be just that a European Cup, not a French-English cup or a Celtic Cup etc, but a cup that is competed for by teams from the 6 major European nations (which are represented by clubs/regions/provinces selected by their national unions).

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:48 pm

MrsP wrote:ERC Board of Directors

France Jean-Pierre Lux (ERC Chairman)

France

Michel Palmié (FFR)

René Bouscatel (LNR)

England

Rob Andrew (RFU)

Peter Wheeler (Premiership Rugby)

Ireland

Peter Boyle (IRFU)
Philip Browne (IRFU)

Italy

Orazio Arancio (FIR)
Fabrizio Gaetaniello (FIR)

Scotland

Mark Dodson (Scottish Rugby)
Ian McLauchlan (Scottish Rugby)

It's all PSW's fault!!!!

So no Welsh involved at all? Laugh

by SecretFly Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:49 pm

*sigh*............ kinda gone down hill this since last I spoke. Let me see - downhill from rock bottom? Where is that? A cave?

Okay, I'll light my candle.

broadlandboy,

This has been done so many times. But you seem newish so I'll do it again.

You ask a simple question. Is HEC a Union or a club competition?

Do your own research by all means but I'll give you the clearest answer. The HEC is a club/provincial competition RUN by Unions - six of them. Unions. Six of them.

The ERC, current organisers, was created by the Six unions to run and control the details of the competition. The Unions (all six of them) OWN the HEC. Not the RFU on its own, not the French and English Unions together and certainly neither of the Club organisations in England or France. All six Unions.

The purposes of the HEC was to improve rugby throughout the six Union territories by having a club competition go hand in hand with the International 6N. It wasn't designed as a best club in Europe exercise, it was designed as a best club from amongst the Six union territories competition.

The PRL gets some clout at the ERC table because the RFU have allowed them the powers to self regulate. Not to regulate external clubs - to regulate themselves They are still controlled by the RFU (one of the shareholders of the current ERC) and PRL powers can be taken back by the RFU... who do reviews I believe. The Unions control things when push comes to shove, not the PRL.

by Toadfish Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:50 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:neilthom

So your saying 66% of the 6N and euro community they get 33% of representation into the club euro comp?

So you'd like proportional representation yes? Ok 66% of your favorite 24 team tournament is 16 teams. Where are you going to find the extra teams? With stadiums bursting at the seams you'll have no problem accommodating them...

by Kingshu Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:53 pm

Where does this "based on a 20 years model that is now horribly out of date" come from for H-cup

First year 3 french 3 Welsh 3 Irish1 Romania 2 Italian

2nd year when england first entered
4 French, 4 English, 4 Welsh, 3 Irish, 3 Scottish 2 Italians

so if we are going back to a 20 team format surley we should use the before model?

First 24 team model 6 English, 6 French, 5 Welsh 3 Irish 2 Scottish 2 italian

Welsh lost 2 places and these were given out as Almin and H-cup winners getting extra spot

So the format has changed over the years can't be said to be a 20 year old out of date model.

Intresting thing is that over the years the French and English allocation has increased, and Wales and Scotlands decreased,

so if we were to reduce teams to 20 again then we go back to;
4 French, 4 English, 4 Welsh, 3 Irish, 3 Scottish 2 Italians

One Welsh and one Scottish place given out to H-cup and Almin winners

Would French and English be happy to go back to this model, have they got gready since then?

by SecretFly Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:53 pm

4 English and 4 French? Wink

by Guest Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:53 pm

Kingshu, An eight team league is a joke - you should know better...
Do you think Sky or BT would pay more or less for that type of 'league' It would also reduce the HC money that apparently the R12 don't rely on....

Folk seem to want it both ways ie. reduce their own team/'clubs' to create teams where most of the players have played the all blacks and then moan that the English and French who haven't concentrated their sides, have too many!!!

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:54 pm

MrsP wrote:ERC Board of Directors

France Jean-Pierre Lux (ERC Chairman)

France

Michel Palmié (FFR)

René Bouscatel (LNR)

England

Rob Andrew (RFU)

Peter Wheeler (Premiership Rugby)

Ireland

Peter Boyle (IRFU)
Philip Browne (IRFU)

Italy

Orazio Arancio (FIR)
Fabrizio Gaetaniello (FIR)

Scotland

Mark Dodson (Scottish Rugby)
Ian McLauchlan (Scottish Rugby)

It's all PSW's fault!!!!

Oh I notice the Teflon Don avoids blame once again Rolling Eyes

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:55 pm

Toadfish

So now the comp should be only for those who can fill stadiums too!! How many more make beleive rules can you use?

by Toadfish Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:56 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Toadfish

So now the comp should be only for those who can fill stadiums too!! How many more make beleive rules can you use?

What are you talking about?

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 2:57 pm

Folk seem to want it both ways ie. reduce their own team/'clubs' to create teams where most of the players have played the all blacks and then moan that the English and French who haven't concentrated their sides, have too many!!!

Ye cos the Rabo teams have the problem and gave notice

by MrsP Fri 14 Dec 2012, 3:00 pm

Just on the "Stadia bursting at the seams" thing, Ravenhill is!

Not sure if it's 3 or 4 home games on the trot with not a ticket to be had weeks in advance, And I'm not just talking about HEC games or Inter-Pros, the game against Edinburgh was a sell out too.

Clue eejit.

by AlastairW Fri 14 Dec 2012, 3:02 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
AlastairW wrote:
neilthom7 wrote: AH that's you pal, I'm not sure what that word at the end is meant to be though. Where are the mods I have been on 2 posts recently where all this guy has done is be very abusive towards MrsP for doing nothing other than disagreeing with him

Brilliant! call me the same thing, then moan about mods not bashing me. Pot. Kettle. Black. There's a little 'report' button on posts, feel free to use it on any of mine.

I'll just sit here twirling my moustache and swishing my black panto cloke, that seems to be the stereo-type that everyone seems to love - regardless if the truth is something different.

Take a chill pill lads. Pretty much everyone on this thread is being passionately one-eyed - it's one of the great things about the HEC in general

Indeed Pete, I do rather enjoy the banter! i shall meet one-eyed passion with likewise. Who knows, two people might even get some depth perception - but that would ruin the fun.

by SecretFly Fri 14 Dec 2012, 3:08 pm

France have gone up 3 places from an original 3 up to 6 - and have won it five times - mostly with one side - Toulouse. Brive being the soul other,

England have gone up 2 places from an original 4 up to 6 - and have won it six times - four sides - Saints, Leicester, Bath and Wasps

Ireland have stayed put with the original 3 remaining constant - and have won it six times - three sides - Ulster, Munster, Leinster.

I know where I see unfairness. Some sides win and their National compatriot club sides are given more chances to win, others win and they're left with their original selection.

I think Ireland should push for more representation by guarantee, not less. I think we could throw in Connacht, London Irish (taken over by the IRFU and populated mostly by Irish players - as some seem to claim it ain't a 'nationalistic' thing Wink

) - and create a New York Irish team

That's 6...that's a lovely number.

by Toadfish Fri 14 Dec 2012, 3:13 pm

SecretFly wrote:France have gone up 3 places from an original 3 up to 6 - and have won it five times - mostly with one side - Toulouse. Brive being the soul other,

England have gone up 2 places from an original 4 up to 6 - and have won it six times - four sides - Saints, Leicester, Bath and Wasps

Ireland have stayed put with the original 3 remaining constant - and have won it six times - three sides - Ulster, Munster, Leinster.

I know where I see unfairness. Some sides win and their National compatriot club sides are given more chances to win, others win and they're left with their original selection.

I think Ireland should push for more representation by guarantee, not less. I think we could throw in Connacht, London Irish (taken over by the IRFU and populated mostly by Irish players - as some seem to claim it ain't a 'nationalistic' thing ) - and create a New York Irish team

That's 6...that's a lovely number.

I'd have no problem with this. On this basis though the two spots left for the Welsh, Scots and Italians seems overly generous but I think we can live with it.

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 3:15 pm

Al holior than though act... nice!!

by Kingshu Fri 14 Dec 2012, 3:22 pm

Recwatcher wrote:Kingshu, An eight team league is a joke - you should know better...
Do you think Sky or BT would pay more or less for that type of 'league' It would also reduce the HC money that apparently the R12 don't rely on....

Folk seem to want it both ways ie. reduce their own team/'clubs' to create teams where most of the players have played the all blacks and then moan that the English and French who haven't concentrated their sides, have too many!!!

Don't know why it would be a joke, play each other home and away twice even?, and because the teams will be better, most would be packed with internatials should appeal better to SKY/BT, quality should improve, no weak teams, games would be of a higher standard whats not to like?

Don't see how it would reduce H-cup money as England still enter 6 teams, and they would be of better quality.

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 3:29 pm

So this 8 team league would be 6 English clubs + 2???

by SecretFly Fri 14 Dec 2012, 3:33 pm

6 English clubs + 2 English sides

I thought that was clear, blues? Fair is fair.

by thebluesmancometh Fri 14 Dec 2012, 4:14 pm

fair enough, I'll look forward to that tournament!!!

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