Millennium Stadium - artificial pitch

Haven't seen a thread on this. But haven't really looked, so apologies if already posted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20747799

Mildly interesting. May be genuine story or may be that the Chief Exec felt he hadn't had his face in the papers for about 5 mins so wanted to announce something.

Halfpenny will still probably fall over a lot.

I think they're going to wait and see how Sarries get on with theirs first, I.e. is it suitable for rugby, impacts, sliding on, getting your face rubbed in it, etc!

Griff wrote:I think they're going to wait and see how Sarries get on with theirs first, I.e. is it suitable for rugby, impacts, sliding on, getting your face rubbed in it, etc!

They're also worried about potential damage to the surface from heavy trucks when setting up the stadium for concerts - it may be more durable, but costs more to repair if it does get damaged.

Surely getting your face rubbed in to it would be fricking horrific?!!

It's a good idea though looking at the mess of the current pitch, or they could do what's been done at Twickers and mix fake grass with real grass (or something like that I only skimmed the Twickenham article and didn't really pay attention, heck they might be doing this already...)

I know they mix fake and real grass at the Liberty Stadium in Swansea. Wasn't aware they did it at Twickers. Hasn't Twickers got an ancient pitch, first planted in 1870 or something?! The cabbage patch??

In terms of hurting when you slide on it, I know that artificial pitches have moved on a great deal in recent times. The blades of grass are less plasticky like in the past and more 'silky' from what I've read, so not sure about the danger or pain. However, that's the first thing I thought when they suggested it. Can just imagine a player sliding on for a try and catching fire from the friction!

Also, what I don't understand is the problem in the first place. Surely there must be other stadiums in the world with similar designs? Why can't the MS get enough light in? Has it got extraordinarily step sides or something?! The roof fully retracts so it must still let in a fair bit of light. Looks sunny enough on the pitch when it's open on sunny days!

The cabbage patch was pulled out in the summer and a new pitch put in I think it was from 1910 but don't quote me!

Ah I guess it must be at least a bit softer, but its never going to be like the comforting embrace of a muddy pitch.

Being serious I guess the pitch issues could be from a mix of the time spent with the roof closed and events happening there, plus the poor weather in Wales, maybe the sun is only high in the sky for a relatively short amount of time. Or perhaps its quite a small diameter of stadium compared to its height

I don't know how it is possible to mix artificial turf with real. The artificial turf is part of a rubber compound base sitting on solid base. Real grass couldn't grow.

I agree with Griff that it makes sense to wait and let Saracens get a season under their belt and observe the results. In the US, there are a lot of fields which are artificial turf used for soccer and American Football. At the professional, uni and schools levels. Injury rates are well known and documented. Only unknown, I believe, are concussion rates v. grass. Also known are the cost savings due to significantly lower maintenance costs.

Real and artificail turf is mixed all the time, Waikato Stadium is a prime example. In fact the Waikato Stadium in my opinion has the best playing surface in the world. How they do it I do not know.

The one question i would like to ask is, do you need special boots for running on the artificial turf? And another thing will normal rugby boots be able to get any form of traction. Or will the players be slipping and sliding all over the place?

All I know supposedly the best rugby stadium in UK ,the one thing that should matter does`nt it seems.The turf always seems to cut up or is slippery or whatever,NOT a first class playing surface.

emack2 wrote:All I know supposedly the best rugby stadium in UK ,the one thing that should matter does`nt it seems.The turf always seems to cut up or is slippery or whatever,NOT a first class playing surface.

Well at least they are doing things to rectify this. Unfortunately most NZ grounds are also cricket fields which equates to being miles from the playing area.

Widnes have been playing on a Sarries type ground for a while now. There were some complaints at the beginning of the season due to grazes on arms and legs from sliding in. Not sure if it's calmed down yet or got worse or what. Can't find anything after February this year so it's probably fine.

emack2 wrote:All I know supposedly the best rugby stadium in UK ,the one thing that should matter does`nt it seems.The turf always seems to cut up or is slippery or whatever,NOT a first class playing surface.

The pitch should have been the WRU's main concern when commissioning and approving the design of the new stadium. It's clear that it wasn't.

Why now though, the pitch hasn't been that bad for the last few seasons, wasn't Irelands ground cutting up quite bad during the AIs as well?

Bedford, it's costing them a fortune in artificial lighting rigs and electricity to keep the pitch decent. An artificial surface wouldn't need any of that.

Yeha fair point LP, of course the WRU will surely put money saved to good use won't they?

Oh hang on its the WRU so no then.

Roger Lewis said (so pinch of salt needed) that they have to re-lay it at least once but sometimes up to 3 times a year at the cost of £250,000 each time. The lighting rig system bought to aid growth was £500,000 with an annual electricity bill of £70,000. A low maintenance artificial surface, if suitable, would probably pay for itself in a couple of years.

Those sums are crazy.

Who ever the architect was for the MS I bet he's vanished quickly now!

Griff wrote:Wasn't aware they did it at Twickers. Hasn't Twickers got an ancient pitch, first planted in 1870 or something?! The cabbage patch??

The last of old Billy Williams' Cabbage Patch was removed when the new turf was laid in the summer

From a Torygraph article:

New pitch

“The old pitch was the old 1910 allotments, with four inches of fibre-sands on top with five-metre drains,” said Kent. The contractors dug out 18 inches of soil — 9,000 tonnes in total and installed undersoil heating and irrigation under the new surface. The artificial grass, which makes up just three per cent of the surface, stabilises the pitch because the roots wrap around it while bigger sand particles can also be used.

AlastairW wrote:

Griff wrote:Wasn't aware they did it at Twickers. Hasn't Twickers got an ancient pitch, first planted in 1870 or something?! The cabbage patch??

The last of old Billy Williams' Cabbage Patch was removed when the new turf was laid in the summer

From a Torygraph article:

New pitch

“The old pitch was the old 1910 allotments, with four inches of fibre-sands on top with five-metre drains,” said Kent. The contractors dug out 18 inches of soil — 9,000 tonnes in total and installed undersoil heating and irrigation under the new surface. The artificial grass, which makes up just three per cent of the surface, stabilises the pitch because the roots wrap around it while bigger sand particles can also be used.

Did they try to sell any of the old turf? Before the (ultimately ill-fated) Lancaster Park redevlopment in Christchurch the Canterbury RFU sold off squares of the old hallowed turf to help pay for the new stands.

Pete, they did that for the old Cardiff Arms Park before the MS was built! I know you could buy a square foot (or similar) of turf, perhaps in a frame if memory serves. I think you could buy plastic seats too!

Griff wrote:Roger Lewis said (so pinch of salt needed) that they have to re-lay it at least once but sometimes up to 3 times a year at the cost of £250,000 each time. The lighting rig system bought to aid growth was £500,000 with an annual electricity bill of £70,000. A low maintenance artificial surface, if suitable, would probably pay for itself in a couple of years.

Just had a brilliant idea. When they take the pallets back out, they could just plonk them on the bit of mountainside that they took the turf from in the first place, to grow again in the sun and rain. Then when the replacement pitch wears out, they take the first lot back in. Effectively rotating the same two pitches over and over.

If I'd thought of this in 1999 I'd have saved those idiots millions.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

Griff wrote:Wasn't aware they did it at Twickers. Hasn't Twickers got an ancient pitch, first planted in 1870 or something?! The cabbage patch??

The last of old Billy Williams' Cabbage Patch was removed when the new turf was laid in the summer

From a Torygraph article:

New pitch

“The old pitch was the old 1910 allotments, with four inches of fibre-sands on top with five-metre drains,” said Kent. The contractors dug out 18 inches of soil — 9,000 tonnes in total and installed undersoil heating and irrigation under the new surface. The artificial grass, which makes up just three per cent of the surface, stabilises the pitch because the roots wrap around it while bigger sand particles can also be used.

Did they try to sell any of the old turf? Before the (ultimately ill-fated) Lancaster Park redevlopment in Christchurch the Canterbury RFU sold off squares of the old hallowed turf to help pay for the new stands.

Not sure to be honest Pete. Just a lot of England Rugby fans understanding the necessity of getting it done, but nostalgic over a big part of history finally having to go.

Best way forward is surely what the Swans have done at the Liberty with a mix of real and artificial grass. For me, they have the best pitch in the prem with the exception of the emirates, plus they have rugby played on it with the O's obviously.

Not having been to the MS. But Have seen a lot of games that have been played there, is the pitch more slippery and cut up more when the (roof) is closed or open?

We have an artificial turf training pitch and to be honest its pretty good. Much more grip than turf. Generally I find it too uncomfortable with normal studs so wear mouldies but then I hardly wear normal boots at all.

It does burn a little when you slide but is fine when it is wet which I would guess they would do prior to the matches. When you land on it, it is no different when you land on it than an early season pitch that has been irrigated.

Certainly takes some of the romance away but realistically it no different to playing at the beginning or end of the season when the ground is firm and fast. Probably the sort of conditions most people like but there is always something that feels great about playing in the mud!

For somewhere like MS I think it is perfect. They close the roof anyway to keep the rain off and even if they leave the roof off in the rain the ball will still be slippery.

When it's closed Maj. The humidity really gets up. Before one of the AIs this year the pitch side commentator, a female (forget her name - Sonja?) said that it was 90% humidity at pitch side. I find this hard to believe as I don't really understand humidity (90% sounds to me like everyone would be drenched!), but it was deemed worthy enough to mention. It has lead to lots of slipping, compounded by the lack of firmness under foot. However, this current pitch is better than the one from a few seasons ago. It hasn't been cutting up as much but is still not great.

A plastic/synthetic pitch has to be much ,much cheaper than the current solution, you can sack the grounds men for a start, no undersoil heating, no constanly moving palettes in and out, drainage will not be an issue, don't need te roof for matches etc. Will the ERC/FIFA allow international matches on a synthetic pitch if yes go for it.

Watching Leinster's game the other day against Clermont, that pitch was just as bad if not worse than the MS.

alun,

Thats a good point about FIFA as I guess the WRU will have to get their permission as well if the FAW want to carry on using it.

Don't think the Welsh football team will be playing at the MS for a very long time so don't need to worry about them. Like I said, half and half is a much better solution like the Liberty.

Liam wrote:Don't think the Welsh football team will be playing at the MS for a very long time so don't need to worry about them. Like I said, half and half is a much better solution like the Liberty.

Liam,

But surely the WRU will want to keep that as an option plus I am sure I have heard rumours that they have (or want to) bidded to try and host Champions League/Europa League finals.

Liam, yes I think would be great. However, maybe the fear is that with a 50/50 grass and synthetic pitch you still need to be able to grow the grass bit. Maybe as they struggle to grow it now they may struggle to grow it integrated into a synthetic pitch too? I think I heard the ground staff say on the news that the problem is to do with a lack of ventilation and light which promotes pests that attack the grass roots and stop them growing, leading to weaker turf.

The original articles says that the IRB and FIFA have approved some artificial pitches. No doubt they'd go for one of these.

rainbow-warrior wrote:Real and artificail turf is mixed all the time, Waikato Stadium is a prime example. In fact the Waikato Stadium in my opinion has the best playing surface in the world. How they do it I do not know.

This is cool. I have never heard about this before:
At Waikato Stadium they really do use a combination of real grass and the artificial in a base matrix. Its called MOTZ STABILIZED TURF - TSII™ Synthetically Stabilized Natural Turf

http://hgturf.com.au/sfd_motz.html

Doc, here's the info from the Libery Stadium site about the half 'n half pitch used by the Ospreys and Swansea City. Havent't heard of any issues from the Ospreys although the have got a lot of injuries....!


The pitch is made up of different layers which all help the durability necessary for a pitch. The layers are set out below:

Drainage system:

Underground pipe drainage system
Pipes run East to West
Connects to two collector drains running North to South
Drains collect water that has fallen on the pitch
Filtered through pitch and carried to main collector drains
Pipes contain integrated air flow systems (Soil Air Units)
Air flow systems allow oxygen to be pumped into root zone
Reversing the flows allows suction of moisture from the pitch

Gravel Carpet:

Separated from the base and drainage system by two layers
Consists of 10mm gauge gravel
Depth of 125mm

Grit Blinding Layer:

Consists of 6mm gauge gravel
Depth of 50mm

Lower Root Zone:

Comprises medium/fine washed sand
Minimum depth of 200mm

Upper Root Zone:

90/10 sand/soil mix
Depth of 100mm
Included is a foam like water retaining agent and growth stimulant
Retains a percentage of soil moisture
Desso GrassMaster Reinforcement
Approximately 20 million artificial grass fibres are sewn into the pitch, 20mm apart and looped to a depth of 200mm. The Desso is sewn in order for the plant roots to entwine and develop around the fibre, guaranteeing maximum stability.

Seeding:

A Sportsturf seed mix has been sown at a rate of 45g per square metre, a total of 400kg.

Griff,

This is great. As I said, I hadn't heard about this before. But spent an hour last night reading up on it. Makes a lot of sense, especially in Rugby which puts a lot of wear and tear on the pitch. Not sure how it would work in Millennium Stadium because the natural grass still needs to grow.

Now, I need to see one of these pitches, and would want a run on it. There appears to be a growing body of data from American sport that there is an increase in the number of ankle injuries with the 'Fieldturf' and other full artificial surfaces. It is what a number of other docs are saying, at any rate. I wonder how this compares. Having true grass and longer individual blades of grass than the artificial fibres may mitigate any other risk. I hope so. And hopefully is something which can lower costs across the board.

doctor_grey wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:Real and artificail turf is mixed all the time, Waikato Stadium is a prime example. In fact the Waikato Stadium in my opinion has the best playing surface in the world. How they do it I do not know.

This is cool. I have never heard about this before:
At Waikato Stadium they really do use a combination of real grass and the artificial in a base matrix. Its called MOTZ STABILIZED TURF - TSII™ Synthetically Stabilized Natural Turf

http://hgturf.com.au/sfd_motz.html

Interesting stuff Doctor

I know the Scarlets have a mix of grass and synthetic grass and it seems to a pretty good job, and doesn't seem to cause many injuries/pain from players sliding in it ect