An Australian's neutral pick of the Lions

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/picturegalleries/9722323/British-Lions-XV-Mick-Cleary-picks-his-team.html?frame=2418086

Mick Cleary goes for 10 English, 3 Irish, 1 Scottish and 1 Welsh.

Can't really argue with any of it, although a strong 6N for Foden/Goode/Brown and Flood could see the England number rise to 12 or 13, although it's a given that this would never be allowed.

This raises another interesting point, is it right that the best Lions team should be compromised to uphold the spirit of its concept?

What you also have to factor in is that selection, whether from the arm chair fan or the head coach, is subjective. The current head coach will pick players he feels will be able to carry out his game plan and instructions. That invariably means he'll go for players he knows best and that may mean that he picks more welsh players this time than perhaps other non-welsh folk would.

To answer your question; it should be the best team regardless of quotas or 'spirit of the concept'. However, again 'best' is subjective and Gatland may feel that some of the welsh, for example, are better than some NZ beaters from England. So, there's bound to be some tears before the end of the tour from fans and players alike.

Griff, I agree with you, the team will be very different to this one and Gatland will choose players on character, not only performance, so his knowledge of Wales will definitely influence his decision.

Is a Lions team a Lions team if it has say 12 or 13 from 1 nation?

Does anyone know the record? I reckon some 70's Lions teams must/should have been very Wales loaded.

Silly selection. England will have no more than 6 starters for all the reasons that any sensible Lions fan knows.

To be honest the Australian and NZ medias are so Anglo-centric they know very little of Europe outside of the lens of the English media. Their NH rugby knowledge reflects this.

The backs are all ok, Gilroy being a surprising bolter even if he was outstanding in the AIs. However, there are too many Englishmen in the forwards though their selection is probably very much based on the AIs and victory over NZ.

I do like the look of the team picked by Mick Cleary. However i do also think that Griff might have a point with regards to the head coach being Warren Gatland, and that he could be a little bias with regards picking more Welsh players.

I realy hope that he picks the best players for their form rather than their reputation.

The 6ns will be a deciding factor. And it will give Gatland and his coaching staff a better idea who the best players are.

Only the best players should go on the lions tour. If the best players are mainly Welsh players then so be it. But if they are not, then they should not go period.

Just to clarify, I wasn't really saying that Gatland would be biased in the negative sense that we usually associate with bias. Rather, where there's a 50/50 call between two players, he may end up going for the one he's worked with for the last 5 years over someone he's never worked with (or only for a coupe of weeks on tour). Obviously it is still called bias, but it is more a human nature, familiarity sort of bias. Like in employment where you sometimes pick the internal interviewee as you know them and know what they can do over he external candidate who you only have knowledge of from a CV and 30 min interview (not sure if that's a great analogy, but it's how I picture the selection dilemma).

The fact is that its a British Lions XV - Mick Cleary picks his team

means there shouldn't really be any Irish.

I'll pick by Irish lions team? either Lions or British and Irish Lions

Also lets be fair about Gilroy.

As much aas I like him I don't want him to be over hyped, he hasn't replaced Trimble on the wing yet at Ulster, but nobody's talking up Trimble as a possible Lion.

I believe there were 11 englishman in the starting line up of the 2nd test of the 93 NZ test

Guscott, Underwood, Andrew, Morris, Moore, Leonard, Johnson, Bayfield, Clarke, Winterbottom & Richards.

Got to be close to a record for sure.

Looks like another grand slam for England in the 6N again!

wow one win over the AB's brings in 13 englishman. Nothing against all of them but wow.

Launchbury. Good talent prospect but for one Ian Evans has been outstanding for the last year for Wales, one of the few who can hold his head up high.

Richie Gray?

No Cian Healy?

No North?

No Ferris/Lydiate?

Rory Best?

All subjective of course but I think there's better players available at this moment than most of that team atm. 6N will be for me, the deciding factor in who goes on the Lions tour. If England or any NH team have a great 6N, I'd have no qualms about there being a majority (not on this scale) for the Lions. This is verging on SCW selection.

To be honest Richie Gray hasn't performed for a while and at the moment would be just about make the squad.

6 is the most competitive position out there... Wood, Ferris, Lydiate and Croft. Not sure who will win that one... best form will come through. Ferris injury has come at the wrong time.

So has Lydiate's now thinking about it.

I'd still take Gray. He'll be playing with better players than he currently is now (Sale and Scotland) and to have someone like him at your disposal it would be silly not to take him imo.

Most of those guys will tour though. The harder question is will they play in the 1st 15. 1/2p for instance must be a shoe in to tour but may not make the 1st team. I seem to remember he used to be a decent wing...

Gray should be a shoe in but I wonder how much of the fuss is about how amazing it is to see someone that big running with the ball like he can rather than how well he does in more traditional 2nd row tasks.

Methinks it is way too early to really speculate. There is the minor event known at the Six Nnations yet to be played. I somehow think that minds will be changed about players, sometimes positive, sometimes negative, during and afterwards.

My preference is generally that I prefer to see all nations represented in the starting XV. But superceding that is the fact that I want the Lion to win.

The other thing is that Gatland, or any coach for that matter, will have their coaching philosophy and their game plan in mind. They'll select the extended squad and then go about seeing who can execute that game plan in training and warm up games the way the coach (Gatland) wants it. So, even if Dan Cole, for example, appears to be the best TH going into the tour, if he's not able to execute the game plan that Gatland wants, perhaps because he is used to a different game plan or coaching style, then he may be overlooked for someone who can. OK, props are probably not the best example - scrummage well, 'oh well done, you did it, you're in the team'! But the point still stands I think. And this is where the Welsh players may be in receipt of some unintentional bias; they'll know what Gatland wants, Gatland knows that they can do it (at least in training), and they may get the nod as they can adapt to the game plan a bit quicker (through experience of it).

What does worry me however is that Gatlands game plan for taking on Aus (and everyone else for that matter) revolves around kicking long and infield and chasing and putting pressure on further up the pitch. Also, kick everything in your own half but run everything in their half (Priestland was quoted as saying that they were the tactics recently). Hopefully he'll come up with a new gameplan as that one seems to have a low success rate. Or, he may hope that the wider talent pool available to him for the Lions might stand a better chance of getting his game plan to work???

Griff wrote:The other thing is that Gatland, or any coach for that matter, will have their coaching philosophy and they game plan in mind. They'll select the extended squad and then go about seeing who can execute that game plan in training and warm up games the way the coach (Gatland) wants it. So, even if Dan Cole, for example, appears to be the best TH going into the tour, if he's not able to execute the game plan that Gatland wants, perhaps because he is used to a different game plan or coaching style, then he may be overlooked for someone who can. OK, props are probably not the best example - scrummage well, oh well done you did it, you're in the team! But the point still stands I think. And this is where the Welsh players may be in receipt of some unintentional bias; they'll know what Gatland wants, Gatland knows that they can do it (at least in training), and they may get the nod.

What does worry me however is that Gatlands game plan for taking on Aus (and everyone else for that's matter) revolves around kicking long and infield and chasing and putting pressure on further up the pitch. Also kick everything in your own half but run everything in their half (Priestland was quoted as saying that they were the tactics recently). Hopefully he'll come up with a new gameplan as that one seems to have a low success rate. Or, he may hope that the wider talent pool available to him for the Lions might stand a better chance of getting his game plan to work???

I am also worried about Gatlands game plan, he seems to think you can just play a backline of giants and they will steamroller them. As has been proved in the last 7 (?) meetings between the 2 sides, this doesn't work. You can play big centres against them, but only to free up space on the outside for the fast players to exploit, not have some more giants out there to find the nearest player to run into. We need a scrum half with fast delivery and the ability to tie in the ruck defence and keep Genia quiet, not one who thinks hes the biggest player ever to play the game and constantly try to run through 2 forwards.

There is an abundance of talent in these Isles, if Gatland picks the right players and uses a good game plan (ie, not his usual one) then the Lions should win the series.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:...although it's a given that this would never be allowed...

Why do you say that? The starting line-up for the second Lions Test in 1993 included 11 English players. That was at a time when substitutions were not permitted except for injury replacements. The only player to come off the bench that day was another Englishman. The same 11 started and finished the third Test.

(Edit: Sorry, just seen that fa0019 has already made that point)

Not to mention that Scotland are often poorly represented. I'm pretty sure there's been Lions teams with no scots in recently? Definitely a starting 15 with none. Which proves that the Lions is less about quotas and more about who the coach wants to pick (whether their picks are right or wrong).

Heaslip for me is so overrated outside of Ireland. You lot seem to think he's our best player but O'Brien and Ferris have been far better in the green jersey since 2011.
On the other hand, SOB probably has been Ireland's best player over the last two years but never gets picked in these sides.
Grammar time: "shoo-in" not "shoe-in" .

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:Is a Lions team a Lions team if it has say 12 or 13 from 1 nation?

Does anyone know the record? I reckon some 70's Lions teams must/should have been very Wales loaded.

1st test of the 71 tour had 9 Welsh in starting line up 74 tour had 6

He obviously doesn't have a clue. Sure he called them the British lions.

belovedfrosties wrote:...
There is an abundance of talent in these Isles, if Gatland picks the right players and uses a good game plan (ie, not his usual one) then the Lions should win the series.

Lets hope he doesnt go ruin some of it like the last time we had a NZ coach of Wales lead the Lions

Eh?! Henry did no worse than anyone else since! 2005 and 2009 weren't any more successful (with 2005 being the lowest point).

Even as an England fan I'd never put Launchberry,Barritt, Youngs or Corbs in yet. Though a big 6N from Launchberry and Youngs could turh heads. I'm afraid Corbs has to much competition from Healy,Sheridan and Jenkins if he finds form. Launchberry in a similar position with lots of strong second-rows available. All of them wont be injured or playing poorly hopefully!

Whilst I'm a fan of Barritt he's just too limited I'm afraid when JDv2 is available. I'm also still hopeful of Roberts/BOD finding form as they are brilliant players when on playing well. Tom Youngs could be in with a shout but Best,Hartley,Rees and Ford is tough competition.

Basically all to play for in most positions with players returning from injury and players inevitably regaining form. Being overly hopeful on injury I'd go for.

1.Healy (Sheridan pushing close)
2.Best
3.Cole
4.Gray
5.Parling
6.Ferris
7.Robshaw/Warburton - Happy with either atm
8.Heaslip

9.Youngs
10.Sexton

11.North
12.Roberts
13.Tuilagi - It would be a bit too hopeful to pick BOD currently
14.Bowe
15.Kearney

16.Hartley 17.Jones 18.POC 19.Croft 20.Care 21.Flood 22.Halfpenny

Who is the Australian Neutral referred to in the OP...?

lostinwales wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:...
There is an abundance of talent in these Isles, if Gatland picks the right players and uses a good game plan (ie, not his usual one) then the Lions should win the series.

Lets hope he doesnt go ruin some of it like the last time we had a NZ coach of Wales lead the Lions

Yh because last time we had an English coach in charge (SCW) the tour was such a HUGE success wasn't it

Just put the Scots and Irish who played Australia and won. They have the most recent experience of winning against Australia.

One win over NZ (and i do suspect this virus played a part) does not mean we are world beaters...

We were beaten by Australia and South Africa.

The ones that should be considered for the Lions are:
Dan Cole, Corbs, Tom Wood, Tuilagi, Ashton, Robshaw, and 1 of the three FB's.
Maybe Tom Youngs if he continues his hugely impressive introduction to International rugby in the 6n.

I would hope we leave all the others in the England squad to continue their development in a tough environment in Argentina.

The Scottish forwards have not been out played yet. The problem with Scotland is the backs.

I would expect Rennie to feature for the Lions if he recovers from his injury in time. Denton too I think will tour as will Richie Gray. Johnnie Beattie seems to have gotten his mojo back in France and at this rate is likely to feature in the 6N and perhaps even Ryan Grant will tour as a loosie in the dirt trackers.

Ross Ford is my biggest frustration however. If his lineout throwing was better IMO he would be touring too.

Our only real chance at representation in the backs will be Visser or Hogg. Perhaps Laidlaw at Scrum Half but this experiment with him at fly half needs to end if he is to have a chance. Cusiter too could tour but again it's injury depending.

Liam wrote:wow one win over the AB's brings in 13 englishman. Nothing against all of them but wow.

I know us English & Welsh are meant to bicker, but i'm with you 100% on this. Mick Cleary has lost it even more than usual.

As i've previously mentioned, The Kittens can have Cips, I'd like our other coaches & players back for the real England tour to Argentina please!

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Just put the Scots and Irish who played Australia and won. They have the most recent experience of winning against Australia.

kiakahaaotearoa for el presidente! I'm sure you can fill the rest of spaces up on the plane with Welsh players.

The bulk of that Lions team also lost to Australia at home...

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The bulk of that Lions team also lost to Australia at home...

Maybe true, but I haven't seen a team dominate another like that and finish on the losing side. Another day and England could have won by 30 as they could have done against SA, on what I'd seen in the Autumn tests the AB result was predicted and no surprise.

Didn't see any post from you predicting this non-event. Great performance by England but a ludicrous statement I'm afraid about a team who had been unbeaten all year. Many Kiwi posters felt most nervous about England and Wales but we expected to lose. How you predicted that result from what you saw in the AIs is beyond me.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Didn't see any post from you predicting this non-event. Great performance by England but a ludicrous statement I'm afraid about a team who had been unbeaten all year. Many Kiwi posters felt most nervous about England and Wales but we expected to lose. How you predicted that result from what you saw in the AIs is beyond me.

My prediction was made to my club mates, I do have a social life outside this board kia!

If you expected to lose to both England and Wales, surely the England result can't have been a surprise for you either????????

Sorry left out the didn't mate so it should've read we didn't expect to lose either. The result was not a surprise granted but the manner of the defeat certainly was. Looking forward to the rematch and well done on backing your team.

Yeah with you there on the manner of the win but I always felt that you were there fore the taking.
Looking forward to the next fixture too, when is that, next AI's or is there a summer tour down your way before that?

Fair enough. At first I thought you had picked score. I imagine as Twickers is always a sell out, next autumn will be the next time we play. Will be gutted if that's not the case. We have France for 3 test series so they will feel the brunt the earliest.

GunsGerms wrote:To be honest the Australian and NZ medias are so Anglo-centric they know very little of Europe outside of the lens of the English media. Their NH rugby knowledge reflects this.

Yeah, the Aussies have barely seen anything of the Welsh rugby team in the last year or so for instance.

Isnt it amazing how the uniting of the 4 countries actually divides the fans so much.

I for one simply want the best team out there...preferably a nice even representation of all four countries. But as this probably wont occur...lets just get the BEST team out there and support them v the Aussies.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isnt it amazing how the uniting of the 4 countries actually divides the fans so much.

I for one simply want the best team out there...preferably a nice even representation of all four countries. But as this probably wont occur...lets just get the BEST team out there and support them v the Aussies.

Someone's full of Christmas spirit today!

I'd prefer the months of infighting myself

The Aussies would probably prefer that also.

I have no problem whatsoever with the team being made up predominantly of Englishmen (or Irish or Scottish for that matter) if they are the best of the 4 nations at the time. And if Lancaster was in charge then I expect them (English) to feature more heavily. However, as I said earlier I think it's the nationality of the head coach that will dictate 'bias' and team makeup, due to inside knowledge of the players and familiarity.

I'd love an even split. A 4, 4, 4, 3 would be lovely to see. Maybe I'll start a thread on it!

Griff

How about

Healy, Best, Cole, Gray, Jones, Ferris, Warburton, Denton, Youngs, Sexton, Visser, Davies, Tuilagi, Ashton, Halfpenny.

Thats a 4443 split.... Woudln't actually be that bad a side.

Not bad there fa! I quite like it, although ironically the one change for me would be to leave out a Welshman - Jones at lock is not doing it for me at the moment! Would prefer someone else.

I'll have a proper think in a mo...

Griff wrote:I have no problem whatsoever with the team being made up predominantly of Englishmen (or Irish or Scottish for that matter) if they are the best of the 4 nations at the time. And if Lancaster was in charge then I expect them (English) to feature more heavily. However, as I said earlier I think it's the nationality of the head coach that will dictate 'bias' and team makeup, due to inside knowledge of the players and familiarity.

I'd love an even split. A 4, 4, 4, 3 would be lovely to see. Maybe I'll start a thread on it!

+1

If the British & Irish (and imports) Lions aren't going to have an even split then what's the f****** point?

Otherwise, might as well pick a rejerseyed England. A team that is used to playing together would have the best chance of a first series win since '97 anyway.

"And this is where the Welsh players may be in receipt of some unintentional bias; they'll know what Gatland wants, Gatland knows that they can do it (at least in training), and they may get the nod as they can adapt to the game plan a bit quicker (through experience of it)."

This may well be true but I doubt it. We have already seen that Gatland is prepared to drop his old mucker Edwards in preference to Farrell. He clearly is looking to get the 'best' not who he knows. Also, the Lions coaching team carries a strong England contingent.

Lastly, without wishing to rubbish Wales, we have all seen that the Welsh team have failed to get a win against Australia despite 4 recent attempts. Clearly they are not good enough. They need help and Gatland will know that.

englandglory4ever wrote:"And this is where the Welsh players may be in receipt of some unintentional bias; they'll know what Gatland wants, Gatland knows that they can do it (at least in training), and they may get the nod as they can adapt to the game plan a bit quicker (through experience of it)."

This may well be true but I doubt it. We have already seen that Gatland is prepared to drop his old mucker Edwards in preference to Farrell. He clearly is looking to get the 'best' not who he knows. Also, the Lions coaching team carries a strong England contingent.

Lastly, without wishing to rubbish Wales, we have all seen that the Welsh team have failed to get a win against Australia despite 4 recent attempts. Clearly they are not good enough. They need help and Gatland will know that.

All I was saying was not to expect 13 Englishmen in the team, even if they did beat NZ; Gatland may have his own ideas about who he thinks are good.