English Rugby on the up

English rugby is starting to look very promising indeed. English sides are featuring very strongly in all competitions. We are currently holding top positions in HC, Amlin Cup, LV Cup, British & Irish Cup and of course topped off by a great win against the NZers. The depth of talent is obviously getting stronger and quite right, its high time English Rugby started to punch its weight.

Last week we heard that even more talented sports people have been brought in to help on the margins. All very encouraging. I think the new Chairman of the RFU has already made his mark with his forward thinking and action. He deserves some credit albeit muted at the moment as the season has a long way to go but he seems to be doing a lot right.

England Rugby is in a good place right now though. Can't wait to see how the 1st team go in the 6Ns.

... never underestimate the English ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Interesting times for sure though.

Yes it is. Based on numbers, money and everything else it should be at the top too.
If the RFU want to realise this they need to market & develop Rugby, focusing resources, not just 'middle Englanders' but working class kids, in particular providing coaching for those outside the 'schools' system. I wonder how many of the EPS went to bog standard state comps. Not many I'd wager.
Not all working class kids love soccer...

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:I wonder how many of the EPS went to bog standard state comps. Not many I'd wager.
Not all working class kids love soccer...

That is a very valid point! I know all the London based clubs run 'inner city' camps, which tends to be code for kids that come from a working class background or troubled kids. I know that Wasp's Christian Wade was from a local comprehensive, and there was a good Beeb article about Launchbury being a shelf stacker and playing ND1 before being picked up by Wasps.

This is a problem across all sports though, far beyond RU. I think it was around 70%+/- of all GB&NI athletes in the 2012 Olympics that came out of the private/public school systems.

I wonder what percentage of those kids went to those private schools on sports based scholarships because tehy were already exceptional and what percentage became exceptional because they went to a private school?

If you could unravel that particular conundrum EE i think you could make a lot of money!

Id wager that the number coming from non private schools is growing...and will continue to do so.

Rugby is growing in popularity...and even up here in the Football dominated Tyne and wear area...lads are happy to sit and watch a rugby game...unheard of a few years back...

AlastairW wrote:If you could unravel that particular conundrum EE i think you could make a lot of money!

Bit of personal interest in this one as my cousins have just moved back from the states. They were both California state swimming champs for their age groups and have both got scholarships at Millfield, they'd never afford it otherwise.

Their teeth, however, are far too white and they send Christmas cards with cheesey family photos on the front. Swings and round-a-bouts.

I'm sure a bit of time ill cure them of the cheese. Isn't Millfield where Daly and few other GB&NI Swimmers came from? Down Plymouth way?

If it is, then yes, i've seen pictures on the telly-box and it looks terrifically pricey to get into if you don't have a scholarship.

AlastairW wrote:

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:I wonder how many of the EPS went to bog standard state comps. Not many I'd wager.
Not all working class kids love soccer...

That is a very valid point! I know all the London based clubs run 'inner city' camps, which tends to be code for kids that come from a working class background or troubled kids. I know that Wasp's Christian Wade was from a local comprehensive, and there was a good Beeb article about Launchbury being a shelf stacker and playing ND1 before being picked up by Wasps.

This is a problem across all sports though, far beyond RU. I think it was around 70%+/- of all GB&NI athletes in the 2012 Olympics that came out of the private/public school systems.

Joe Launchbury may have been a shelf stacker recently but he went to Christ's Hospital School, an independent boarding school. Look pretty fancy to me!

Griff wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:I wonder how many of the EPS went to bog standard state comps. Not many I'd wager.
Not all working class kids love soccer...

That is a very valid point! I know all the London based clubs run 'inner city' camps, which tends to be code for kids that come from a working class background or troubled kids. I know that Wasp's Christian Wade was from a local comprehensive, and there was a good Beeb article about Launchbury being a shelf stacker and playing ND1 before being picked up by Wasps.

This is a problem across all sports though, far beyond RU. I think it was around 70%+/- of all GB&NI athletes in the 2012 Olympics that came out of the private/public school systems.

Joe Launchbury may have been a shelf stacker recently but he went to Christ's Hospital School, an independent boarding school. Look pretty fancy to me!

There's long been a steady trickle of kids from ordinary backgrounds making their way into rugby through sports scholarships to private school, but I don't think it's been a huge proportion of the elite playing population.

However, things are changing. I recently went on an RFU coaching course where my tutor was a community rugby development officer. He couldn't teach the last day of the course because he was assessing 150-odd 13-15 year olds, mostly inner city kids, for places at the start of the academy process. He said that even a couple of years back professional clubs had very little clue about the pool of talent outside traditional sporting schools - but the pressure to improve their academies' output is opening their eyes. To give one example, 3 of Quins' younger props (Marler, Sinckler and IIRC Collier) were spotted playing for clubs like Battersea Ironsides and fast tracked, and one of the biggest impacts on recruiting more kids has been players like that going back to talk to kids from their own background.

A couple of months back there was some stuff about Fearns. He went to Sedburgh at 17 on a scholarship but was from a much more run of the mill background before

AlastairW wrote: I'm sure a bit of time ill cure them of the cheese. Isn't Millfield where Daly and few other GB&NI Swimmers came from? Down Plymouth way?

If it is, then yes, i've seen pictures on the telly-box and it looks terrifically pricey to get into if you don't have a scholarship.

Yeah it's near Street in Somerset. Loads of sporty types end up there. I think the fake tan is optional though!

Some really interesting points, particularly about.the London clubs doing their bit. Its good to hear to be honest. My club, has a youth coach who goes into the local schools to try to recruit kids into the game. Im sure lots of clubs do too but as far as I am aware these are club initiatives, not a RFU funded drive. I know there are the regional YDOs who do a great job, but theres a huge untapped pool of kids. The RFU need to put their hands deeper into their pockets and kick start something. If we can mobilise these kids, well, there will be no stopping us...

Private school scholarships are great, but limited to kids who have already been talent spotted.

AlastairW wrote: I'm sure a bit of time ill cure them of the cheese. Isn't Millfield where Daly and few other GB&NI Swimmers came from? Down Plymouth way?

If it is, then yes, i've seen pictures on the telly-box and it looks terrifically pricey to get into if you don't have a scholarship.

Our school played against Millfield when I was 14. Their backs were twice the size of our forwards, and most of them had beards!

One of the longest and most painful 80 mins of my life.

Very nice about it afterwards though, but it was boys against men!

Effervescing Elephant wrote:

AlastairW wrote: I'm sure a bit of time ill cure them of the cheese. Isn't Millfield where Daly and few other GB&NI Swimmers came from? Down Plymouth way?

If it is, then yes, i've seen pictures on the telly-box and it looks terrifically pricey to get into if you don't have a scholarship.

Yeah it's near Street in Somerset. Loads of sporty types end up there.

Gareth Edwards went to Millfield on a scholarship. Eddie Butler went there, too.

Just thought I'd share!

Cheers Luckless, always a pleasure to hear from your goodself!

4Ms raises a point close to my heart. In my county the County junior age group sides were split in to two. The Horner boys and Others. The Horner boys teams came from private schools. They weren't really interested in the 'others'. The route to the top is basically from Private school to a known Rugby School and then to the League. This cuts out about 99% of the potential playing population.

The RFU really need to get ALL schools involved in Rugby with every school being linked to their local Rugby Clubs and then good links from there to the league. The County system seems to be a dead end for most.

Doesn't Football use a scouting system to identify good young talent early? Never heard of Rugby doing that.

nobbled wrote:

AlastairW wrote: I'm sure a bit of time ill cure them of the cheese. Isn't Millfield where Daly and few other GB&NI Swimmers came from? Down Plymouth way?

If it is, then yes, i've seen pictures on the telly-box and it looks terrifically pricey to get into if you don't have a scholarship.

Our school played against Millfield when I was 14. Their backs were twice the size of our forwards, and most of them had beards!

One of the longest and most painful 80 mins of my life.

Very nice about it afterwards though, but it was boys against men!

Sounds familiar. My comprehensive played a Private school/6th form that was well known to be a feeder straight into Sandhurst Military academy. I was vigoursly introduced to their field a large number of times by lads, my age apprently, that had their hands replaced by shovels.

Gethin.

englandglory4ever wrote:Doesn't Football use a scouting system to identify good young talent early? Never heard of Rugby doing that.

There definitely are scouts around, but I think that they tend to be drawn to a select number of clubs, possibly those with a legacy of producing talent. Pretty sure Launchbury was spotted by a scout whilst stacking shelves and playing for his local club. Similarly players like Botha and Fourie were all scouted.

Agree with you though that they should spent at least some time at lower-age games, trying to spot talent at a very early age and provide the correct environment to nurture it.

What a load of arrogance.

I see the sour grapes are still being eaten.

It's just retaliation for me calling the Rabies P12 circle-jerk thread a circle-jerk

Morgannwg wrote:What a load of arrogance.

So..... English people, talking about how we can make rugby inclusive and encourage mass participation is arrogant...

Amazing....

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Right, Morg's made a snarky unnecessary comment, and thats 3 snarky responses. Can we leave it there, my hangover is very inclined towards greeting any childish, tedious Anglo Welsh bickering match with the ban button

Lash up on school night Pete? Work must have been murder today.

AlastairW wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Right, Morg's made a snarky unnecessary comment, and thats 3 snarky responses. Can we leave it there, my hangover is very inclined towards greeting any childish, tedious Anglo Welsh bickering match with the ban button

Lash up on school night Pete? Work must have been murder today.

Work Xmas do

And I thought ahead and booked the day off (had to use up some annual leave anyway)

englandglory4ever wrote:4Ms raises a point close to my heart. In my county the County junior age group sides were split in to two. The Horner boys and Others. The Horner boys teams came from private schools. They weren't really interested in the 'others'. The route to the top is basically from Private school to a known Rugby School and then to the League. This cuts out about 99% of the potential playing population.

The RFU really need to get ALL schools involved in Rugby with every school being linked to their local Rugby Clubs and then good links from there to the league. The County system seems to be a dead end for most.

Rugby participation by state schools seems to vary wildly region to region as far as I can see. I went to a state comprehensive from a prep school and the state school had something like 8 rugby pitches, along with most of the other local comps. That's Cornwall which is generally into its rugby, as far as other areas go though I think the emphasis is much less.

On the whole Comprehensive V Private school thing, around where I live there are not really any Private schools so everyone tends to end up lumped in together. However, it does seem to me tha tthe kids who tend to excel at sports (and generally those who are good at sports and book stuff) tend to be from families who are better off financially (or atleast with the 'middle class' mindset). I think the thing is us 'commoners' used to enjoy throwing a ball around and prettending to be whoever it was that was the star at the time whereas those from 'better off' backgrounds tended to have parents who were not satisfied with seeing their lad in the school team, but wanted to see him being the captain and the star player. I can only assume that the majority of folk who attend private school do have that sort of attitude of not just being good enough, but having to excel. (I think that makes sense, but really ain't too sure that I ain't just lost the plot).

Anyhow, also I said way back in the summer, that England were going to be real contenders this six nations, and IMO will be the only competition for France.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: Work Xmas do

And I thought ahead and booked the day off (had to use up some annual leave anyway)

Good work! You could always try hair of dog, it'll either sort you out or finish you off completely.

I'll try and keep the snarky comments to a minimum , but my last few days of annual leave starts as of 4PM today so i'll try not to let the exuberance get to me!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:On the whole Comprehensive V Private school thing, around where I live there are not really any Private schools so everyone tends to end up lumped in together. However, it does seem to me tha tthe kids who tend to excel at sports (and generally those who are good at sports and book stuff) tend to be from families who are better off financially (or atleast with the 'middle class' mindset). I think the thing is us 'commoners' used to enjoy throwing a ball around and prettending to be whoever it was that was the star at the time whereas those from 'better off' backgrounds tended to have parents who were not satisfied with seeing their lad in the school team, but wanted to see him being the captain and the star player. I can only assume that the majority of folk who attend private school do have that sort of attitude of not just being good enough, but having to excel. (I think that makes sense, but really ain't too sure that I ain't just lost the plot).

Anyhow, also I said way back in the summer, that England were going to be real contenders this six nations, and IMO will be the only competition for France.

Correct me if i'm wrong Scarlet, but i'd heard that Rugby was seen as a 'working mans' sport in Wales? Not the 'toff' sport that it was considered in England?

On the plus side English rugby is doing so well that sports England pulled half their funding (although that was because in previous years it had been unusally high to fund big projects which will deliver benefits for years)

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Right, Morg's made a snarky unnecessary comment, and thats 3 snarky responses. Can we leave it there, my hangover is very inclined towards greeting any childish, tedious Anglo Welsh bickering match with the ban button

Fair enough Kiwi.

The thing is, almost every sport which isn't football has a bit of a rep. as a 'posh' sport; cricket, tennis, golf, rowing etc. Realistically that isnt going to change, the whole country is football crazy. In the the paper today it said in 2012 something like over 22 m people had been to a football match this year, compared with 4 for rugby.

Schools need to stop selling off their fields, and encourage those who do enjoy rugby to join a local club and get them involved in the system.

On a slightly different note, I'm not sure I would enjoy rugby as much if it was the main sport in England, I like the fact that despite large amounts of alcohol drunk its normally a friendly atmosphere.

AlastairW wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:On the whole Comprehensive V Private school thing, around where I live there are not really any Private schools so everyone tends to end up lumped in together. However, it does seem to me tha tthe kids who tend to excel at sports (and generally those who are good at sports and book stuff) tend to be from families who are better off financially (or atleast with the 'middle class' mindset). I think the thing is us 'commoners' used to enjoy throwing a ball around and prettending to be whoever it was that was the star at the time whereas those from 'better off' backgrounds tended to have parents who were not satisfied with seeing their lad in the school team, but wanted to see him being the captain and the star player. I can only assume that the majority of folk who attend private school do have that sort of attitude of not just being good enough, but having to excel. (I think that makes sense, but really ain't too sure that I ain't just lost the plot).

Anyhow, also I said way back in the summer, that England were going to be real contenders this six nations, and IMO will be the only competition for France.

Correct me if i'm wrong Scarlet, but i'd heard that Rugby was seen as a 'working mans' sport in Wales? Not the 'toff' sport that it was considered in England?

To be fair football is the council estate game of the British Isles, however the point of Comprehensive or Public (or even Gramar schools, for those oldies) is that the more pushy parents tend to want their kids to not only have the bet education, but also to be seen excelling at a sport (I know people who have been pushed into excelling Football, Rugby, Golf, Fencing, Hockey, Archery, Cricket) as it looks far better on a CV than just being clever. And as such you will most likely find that the majority of good sports folk (Football excluded) will have either well off pushy parents or a sports scolarship etc at a good school.

You are also far more likely to be bought up with the sport if youre from "certain parts" of the countrtry, and far more likley to socialse with "that type".
Its also a big commitment and financial risk to enter a club academy, very few kids get payed anything more than a basic living wage and only a small number get proper contracts at then end. If you have family backing its much easier to achieve.
Also the poor have rugby league which is much easier for their smaller brains to understand.

Still compared to Polo, hunting, and making horses dance Union is the sport of the people.

AlastairW wrote:Correct me if i'm wrong Scarlet, but i'd heard that Rugby was seen as a 'working mans' sport in Wales? Not the 'toff' sport that it was considered in England?

Not strictly true AlastairW, even two of our most lauded Welsh internationals, Gareth Edwards and JPR Williams were scholarship boys to Millfield School in Somerset and most of the rest, in my day at least, were Grammar School boys, which in the valleys were always regarded as posh, (I know I was, though God knows why because all my family worked for the coal board and lived in bog standard two-up, two-down terraced houses!). I suppose in Wales it's different today because Grammar Schools were done away with long ago but there are still the 'toff' schools pushy parents can send their offspring to, such as Llandovery College and Christ College, Brecon. Indeed, Welsh parents can, and still do, send their budding superstars to English schools, like Gareth's and JPR's did.

"On a slightly different note, I'm not sure I would enjoy rugby as much if it was the main sport in England, I like the fact that despite large amounts of alcohol drunk its normally a friendly atmosphere."

Me too. More state school kids v More beer drunk by all? No brainer really, let's keep it as it is.

In the rugby league heartlands, soccer isnt the be all and end all that it is elsewhere.

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote: In the rugby league heartlands, soccer isnt the be all and end all that it is elsewhere.

Pretty much only Hull though. Wigan FC got bigger crowds for doing badly in the Premiership than Wigan Whatevertheyarecalled get for all but the big finals.
For every big Rugby League club in the Pennine coridoor theres 2 soccer clubs that get bigger crowds. There may be the odd whippet eating town where everyone aspires to be a wife beater or pick up a big contract to do badly in Union but for the most part its still soccer country as much as Leicester, for all of Tigers' silverware, is still dominated by the FAKing Power Stadium of Crisps or whatever its called this week.

Oh dear....someones not a league fan.

In the South-West, Cricket and Rugby Union are State School Sports (though not as big as football) and well-loved in villages and towns alike (and such cities as we have). I've been told the same about the Cardiff area of Wales, where I have friends who went to famous state schools that were rugby focussed

englandglory4ever wrote:"On a slightly different note, I'm not sure I would enjoy rugby as much if it was the main sport in England, I like the fact that despite large amounts of alcohol drunk its normally a friendly atmosphere."

Me too. More state school kids v More beer drunk by all? No brainer really, let's keep it as it is.

Not sure quite how sarcastic you're being there, EG4E, but there is a serious point here.

We have gone as a family to rugby ever since we've been a family (literally - each of our kids went to their first match at about 1 month old), and the closest we've felt to being anything other than safe was when my then 18-month old son tried to run onto the pitch (in his Quins shirt) at the Double Header. When we take friends - usually with their children - the universal reaction is "I would never take [insert name of child] to [insert name of roundball club]". We've never had anything worse than friendly banter (and perhaps the odd stray swear word) with opposing fans, and the closest we've seen to fans or players being threatened was when Nick Evans kicked a clearance that knocked over a chap with a tray of beer (they ran a campaign to buy him another round). If you bump into the players in the bar or the street, you can have a chat with them.

I would not want to lose any of these things. I think we can all agree that soccer lacks many of them. Is that because of its origins? Because of its size? Because of its money? If rugby grows as a sport, will it lose its sense of community and cameraderie? I tend to think not, as long as it grows slowly. But it's a legitimate concern, and I'd be even more worried by sudden leaps in growth.

Poorfour wrote: the closest we've seen to fans or players being threatened was when Nick Evans kicked a clearance that knocked over a chap with a tray of beer (they ran a campaign to buy him another round).

That was hilarious, I'm in the LV= stand and saw that kick home in on the guy with the beer tray like an exorcet missile.

I don't know if you were there for the Zebre match, but towards the end of the second half a kid who can't have been more than 18 months old was escorted by mum towards the loo's with this massively over-sized Quins kids shirt on. Honestly, it looked like a dress on him, it was by far the cutest (horrible American word! :p ) thing I might have ever seen. The crowd in the south end of the LV= stand just started clapping him; mum turned him round, and he clapped right back at them with the kind of grin on him that only a toddler can have!

Truly magic moment that no TV coverage can ever capture at a live game. It's times such as that I am very happy RU isn't the leading sport in this country.

You lot have obvioulsy never sat infront of Brian Venter at a match....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote: In the rugby league heartlands, soccer isnt the be all and end all that it is elsewhere.

Pretty much only Hull though. Wigan FC got bigger crowds for doing badly in the Premiership than Wigan Whatevertheyarecalled get for all but the big finals.
For every big Rugby League club in the Pennine coridoor theres 2 soccer clubs that get bigger crowds. There may be the odd whippet eating town where everyone aspires to be a wife beater or pick up a big contract to do badly in Union but for the most part its still soccer country as much as Leicester, for all of Tigers' silverware, is still dominated by the FAKing Power Stadium of Crisps or whatever its called this week.

Most people I know from Hull are into football. A few are into both and a handful League only. The championship football team gets about the same in attendance as the two league teams get put together. You see kids wandering around with rugby balls which is pretty strange.

You see kids in the cumbrian coastal towns kicking rugby balls, rugby league is a staple up there.

I dont think we will see rugby ousting soccer, and we certainly dont want the longstanding traditions of violence on field, but respect off it, to be eroded. But still big efforts should be made to expand our player base and improve the quality of.the coaching available to those outside the school system. Ive seen and felt how the traditions of the game can have a positive impact upon the lives of youngsters.

MotelMoneyMurderMadness wrote:You see kids in the cumbrian coastal towns kicking rugby balls, rugby league is a staple up there. .

This what happens to communitiessited next to leaky nuclear processing plants. The effects it has on those kids is appalling.