Fighters who, right now, cannot lose in their weight class

First topic message reminder :

Gun to head, no ifs buts or maybes, which fighters cannot lose in their weight class at this time.

I know that technically anybody can lose. But if you had to pick 5, who would they be.

For me:


Donaire. Too skilled, hits too hard, good chin. Would stop Mares and Rig, IMO.
Golovkin @ 160. Beats Martinez, Quillin and Geale, with energy left to spare.
Andre Ward. Too smart, too dedicated, too talented and too dirty.
Broner, p4p number 1 within 18 months.
Finding a fifth is tricky for me. Wlads chin is always a ?, Cruiser is very competitive as is LH. I am going to drop to Light Welter and say Matthysse, if given a fair deal, beats all. Luca Matthysse is my 5th.

Yours?

azania wrote:Come on, do me a favour. Lucas looked beating up a blown up SFW and Ajose. He does the fundermentals well, but has no surprise factor. Nothing, nada, zip. A semi decent Khan will expose him for the chump that he is.

Azania, please.

Matthysse beats every fighter currently campaigning at 140 and you know it.

Welcome back. Happy New Year.

Apart from Garcia, Khan, Rios and Marquez that is.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Apart from Garcia, Khan, Rios and Marquez that is.

Marquez isn't fighting at 140
Beats the rest.

Marquez is a world champion at 140lbs and Rios batters him all round the ring, hits too hard and is too resillient. Does everything Matthyse does but much better.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Marquez is a world champion at 140lbs and Rios batters him all round the ring, hits too hard and is too resillient. Does everything Matthysse does but much better.

Have you seen Matthysse and Rios fight, can't for the life of me see how he does everything better given that Matthysse is the much better boxer and has a much tighter defence and similar power, chin and stamina. Rios is tough but had been hurt by lesser puncher than Lucas like Acosta (a lightweight who had Rios in real trouble in the 4th in particular), Antillon (lightweight who buzzed him well) and Alvarado (who isn't particularly heavy handed although has good stamina and is tough) got too him very easily and was outboxing him

Marquez beats him as Marquez is next level to almost every fighter between 135-147 and likes to fight toe to toe to show how good a counterpuncher he is but Lucas will see enough in the katsidis and Diaz fights to see that he has a slim chance

Ghosty, I have to be honest, I'm not sure how you can say that Matthysse has done "absolutely nothing" and call him "the most overrated fighter on the planet" and then talk Rios up so much in comparison. If Matthysse is one-dimentional, then what does that make Rios?

Matthysse has at least outboxed good technicians like Alexander and Judah for prolonged periods. Rios' whole claim to fame thus far has consisted of simply being able to out-gun brawlers without a punch (Murray) or those who can only stand in front of an opponent (Alvarado). Not to mention the blatant gift of a decision he received against Abril, or the fact that he's been in breach of weigh in limits for a couple of those outings. Good fighter to watch, but he's far more of a flat track bully than Matthysse.

What is it about Rios' style, career record to date or abilities which make him so superior when directly compared to Matthysse? If the latter has done nothing and is overrated, then Rios surely must be as well?

Rios has something about him which Matthyse doesn't, he got gifted a decision against Abril but then again Lucas has lost to both Judah and Alexander (yes he lost, enough of this revisionism that gives him both wins unjustly.

Also Garcia seems to be getting bigged up as someone who is cleaning out of the division, Amir Khan was a great win but it's not as big a name as some think as Khan does have a weak chin and Danny exploited that. Looking past that and you have Morales, Morales II and Holt which isn't exactly the who's who of the lightwelters and his next fight is against Judah who has finally lost his speed. If Matthysse doesn't get props for fighting a natural lightweight in Soto then why should Garcia get any credit for beating a feather/superfeather who was a ghost of his former self.

A bit of consistency please

I don't think there's any revisionism with regards to the Alexander fight, not at all. At the time the general consensus was that Matthysse had clearly won the fight, which is what people continue to say now - it's not as if they've only just come around to that way of thinking now, is it? No revisionism there at all.

The Judah fight, granted, was a closer affair. A draw wouldn't have been unjust, but if there was a winner then Matthysse was more likely it.

Anyway, even if you've come to the conclusion that Matthysse narrowly lost both encounters, it's a damn sight more justifiable than clearly losing to the likes of Abril, which is exactly what Rios did if we strip away the theft which was the 'decision.'

As I said, Matthysse isn't invincible, and nor his he a pound for pound virtuoso, but he's impressed me a lot more than Rios has up until now.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Rios has something about him which Matthyse doesn't, he got gifted a decision against Abril but then again Lucas has lost to both Judah and Alexander (yes he lost, enough of this revisionism that gives him both wins unjustly.

Matthysse won both those fights. If we were to poll it it would be overwhelming. The fact you can't see this lessens your credibility. The fact you called Matthysse the most overrated fighter on earth lessens it further, and the thingyou said about Rios doing EVERYTHING better than Matthysse, well, that's just laughable

He didn't win both fights, he LOST both fights, close they were there can't really be many arguments for the Judah win.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:He didn't win both fights, he LOST both fights, close they were there can't really be many arguments for the Judah win.

Let's poll it

Can't say i'm too bothered Sean, it's not going to change my views on Matthyse who is an accident waiting to happen.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Can't say i'm too bothered Sean, it's not going to change my views on Matthyse who is an accident waiting to happen.

Khan was an accident waiting to happen.
So was Seth Mitchell.

Matthysse is nothing of the sort. He might one day lose a legitimate fight, but he is not an "accident waiting to happen".

If you're saying he's likely to lose at some point in his career then....well yeah, of course he is. That's boxing. I don't see that he's doing anything wrong as he goes bout his bouts though. Sure, one day there will probably be someone too quick, or too big, or too elusive or something, but the same can be said of any fighter in history.

We seem to keep getting away from the issue, if Matthysse can be pushed close by Judah and Alexander it suggests he is beatable whether or not we consider him to have been beaten. I think he might well be the pick of the light-welters, but if that's what we want to debate can we change the title of the thread to 'fighters who are the clear best in their weight class'?

sittingringside wrote:We seem to keep getting away from the issue, if Matthysse can be pushed close by Judah and Alexander it suggests he is beatable whether or not we consider him to have been beaten. I think he might well be the pick of the light-welters, but if that's what we want to debate can we change the title of the thread to 'fighters who are the clear best in their weight class'?

That is, pretty much, spot on to what my thoughts are exactly.

No need to change the title, really. I don't agree that Matthysse can't be beaten at 140 lb, but Sean does. Therefore, he put his opinion in writing, which is the whole point.

It's not as if most people are saying this in any case - rather, most were just taking exception to the idea that he's "done nothing", is badly overrated and that he lost the fights against Alexander and Judah when, in reality, he didn't.

In my humble opinion Chris he wasn't robbed against either Alexander or Judah, had him losing to Zab by a point and had him one point up against Alexander. It's based on the fact he hasn't excelled in his two biggest fights that I deem him vastly over rated and in reality has done very little in comparison to say Khan who can boast a better record at world level.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:In my humble opinion Chris he wasn't robbed against either Alexander or Judah, had him losing to Zab by a point and had him one point up against Alexander. It's based on the fact he hasn't excelled in his two biggest fights that I deem him vastly over rated and in reality has done very little in comparison to say Khan who can boast a better record at world level.

you said he lost both fights earlier in the thread. Mathysse is undrafted at world level in most people’s eyes. Khan has done well but also had the living snot beaten out of him on more than one occasion

In the eyes of the people who matter he's lost twice, lets not start rewriting history.

Lucas is an exciting fighter. In my opinion that gives him the sway here. Yes to me he edged the fight against Alexander. I had Zab ahead but wouldn't argue either way. That he was close to Zab says much about his talent.

Furthermore one cannot escape the fact that Alexander went up in weight shortly after. Perhaps he was weight drained. Who knows.

Is he unbeatable? Far from it. He is a decent fighter. Appears very strong against fat super feathers. Totally beat up Ajose. But lets not write up Ajose too much. An above par club fighter.

To me Lucas is a decent but hugely over-rated. Khan would school him...if he had a better chin. I'd still pick Khan over him with confidence.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:In the eyes of the people who matter he's lost twice, lets not start rewriting history.

Thing is, Ghosty - where do you draw the line?

Obviously, some decisions are contentious, some maybe slightly dubious - but others are just blatantly wrong for all to see. In the former cases, I can understand going by the written record, but not in the latter; and I do believe that Matthysse-Alexander falls in to that second category, because I'm yet to meet a single soul who thought that Alexander won it. In fact, I'm yet to meet a single soul who even had it a draw.

The record books may say it (just as they fraudulently showed, for instance, that Freddie Mills was the 'best' Light-Heavyweight in the world for a while when, in reality, everyone knows better), but I'll be damned before I ever say that Patterson lost to Ellis, or that Whitaker lost to Ramirez, or that Darchinyan drew with Gorres, and so on.

Unless somebody was really and truly looking to give Alexander every single last benefit of the doubt and was making a conscious effort to give him rounds for as little as possible, then I really fail to see how anyone could have Matthysse not only winning, but winning by at the very, very least, two or three points. The five point margins being mentioned on Sean's other thread were in no way unreasonable, in my opinion.

Just as you're happy to say that, as far as you're concerned, Jofre beat Harada (which I'd say is actually more debatable, if anything), then I'm happy to say that Matthysse beat Alexander.

Don't think i've ever once said that Jofre beat Harada, close fights which could have gone either way based on whether you prefer quantity or volume.

Abril against Rios- Robbery
Marquez against Pacquiao III- Robbery
Lara against Williams- Robbery

Williams against Martinez- Close
Alexander against Matthyse- Close

It's all irrelevant anyway Chris, I just don't see how Matthyse can be considered unbeatable at 140lbs when he's a) just not that good b) been involved in two close fights c) has the small issue of Broner in the division below. He doesn't deserve to be considered in the same sentence as Donaire, Wlad, Mayweather, Ward or Gamboa.

No Alexander was a robbery

Could have been closer than the likes of Rios-Abril based on your what you liked during the fight but if you gave Alexander more than 5 rounds you need to re watch the fight as there were at least 5 clear rounds which Matthysse won and he was landing the harder cleaner punches and was outworking Devon so quantity over quantity still won't apply as Lucas was winning both

If you had him winning 5 rounds then by virtue of having been knocked down he would have lost as it was a 10 round fight