Who are the greatest players that represented the British and Irish Lions?

by maestegmafia Wed 02 Jan 2013, 2:45 pm

Can you name a XV players not from the country you support that were the Greatest Lions you have ever seen tour for Britain and Ireland...?

The Lions pulls us all together, and in that spirit lets look at who we respect the most from other nations and celebrate each others skills.

In an effort to strike good gentlemanly lets see all you pundits out there post a XV before you choose to comment on anyone else's.

by maestegmafia Wed 02 Jan 2013, 2:59 pm

1. Ian McLauchlan - Scottish
2. Keith Wood - Irish
3. Paul Wallace - Irish
4. Willie-John McBride - Irish
5. Gordon Brown - Scottish
6. Richard Hill - English
7. Fergus Slattery - Irish
8. Finlay Caulder - Scottish
9. Gary Armstrong - Scottish
10. Ollie Campbell - Irish
11. Jason Robinson - English
12. Ian McGeechan - Scottish
13. Mike Gibson - Irish
14. David Duckham - English
15. Andy Irvine - Scottish

6 Irish
6 Scots
3 Englishmen

by ThePantomimeVillain Wed 02 Jan 2013, 3:29 pm

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Robin McBryde
3. Dai Young
4. Brent cockbain
5. Alun Wyn Jones
6. Colin Charvis
7. Sam warburton (let's face it, he's nailed on for 2013)
8. Eddie butler
9. Gareth Edwards
10. Neil Jenkins
11. Shane Williams
12. Gavin Henson
13. Gareth Thomas
14. Leigh Halfpenny
15.JPR Williams

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 02 Jan 2013, 3:38 pm

Thought youd have Flutey in there TPV

by Pot Hale Wed 02 Jan 2013, 3:51 pm

The British Lions?

Dear dear.... this is 2013 you know, Fairfield Don, not 1913.

by maestegmafia Wed 02 Jan 2013, 3:56 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Thought youd have Flutey in there TPV

post your team before you comment on others PSW...

by maestegmafia Wed 02 Jan 2013, 3:56 pm

Pot Hale wrote:The British Lions?

Dear dear.... this is 2013 you know, Fairfield Don, not 1913.

Amended. Apologies.

Now lets see your team...!

by Cyril Wed 02 Jan 2013, 3:57 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Thought youd have Flutey in there TPV

To be fair he played well for the Lions (and against them).

by Geordie Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:04 pm

Theres many a player who wasnt a big name but had awesome games for the lions.

Smith and Wallace the SAcottish and Irish props in '97 werent big names but were simply brilliant...

by maestegmafia Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:04 pm

maestegmafia wrote:In an effort to strike good gentlemanly lets see all you pundits out there post a XV before you choose to comment on anyone else's.

by Scrumpy Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:04 pm

I can't believe they have missed out Scott Gibbs in the two teams above!

by Cyril Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:07 pm

VictorU3 wrote:I can't believe they have missed out Scott Gibbs in the two teams above!

I think Hersh got a ban for doing that Shocked

by Scrumpy Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:09 pm

Really?

Poor chap Crying or Very sad

by Geordie Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:15 pm

Scott Gibbs, Scott Quinnell ?

by Cyril Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:17 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Scott Gibbs, Scott Quinnell ?

People are always saying there aren't enough Scotts in the Lions.

by Pot Hale Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:18 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The British Lions?

Dear dear.... this is 2013 you know, Fairfield Don, not 1913.
Amended. Apologies.

Now lets see your team...!

Well, um, ah, it still isn't quite right, FFD. If you're asking a question, there should be a question mark at the end of the sentence, not a full stop. And should it really be asked in the past tense? Makes it sound like they're all dead, or they aren't the greatest any more. I think present tense would be better.

by Guest Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:18 pm

How could Maes pick Gibbs? You have to pick players from nations other than your own.

by Geordie Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:19 pm

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Scott Gibbs, Scott Quinnell ?
People are always saying there aren't enough Scotts in the Lions.

by Scrumpy Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:21 pm

Griff wrote:How could Maes pick Gibbs? You have to pick players from nations other than your own.

That's a little bit of a silly rule to impose on ones self.

by maestegmafia Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:24 pm

VictorU3 wrote:
Griff wrote:How could Maes pick Gibbs? You have to pick players from nations other than your own.

That's a little bit of a silly rule to impose on ones self.

Idea being that National bias was exempt and appreciation of the other nations that comprise the Lions was paramount.

by Cyril Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:27 pm

Except the nation that was snubbed in the title.

by ThePantomimeVillain Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:34 pm

I thought you just wanted a Way to ensure others picked some welsh boys maes Wink

anyway, I'm not heavily attached to my team just trying to oblige and be gentlemanly. Happy to fit in as many Scott's as you suggest.

by Pot Hale Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:38 pm

A few come to mind...

Jackie Kyle
Grahame Budge
Karl Mullen
Cliff Morgan
Tony O'Reilly
Mike Gibson
Robin Thompson
Bob Hiller
Barry John
Tom Kiernan
Syd Millar
John Pullin
Jim Telfer
Gareth Edwards

by ThePantomimeVillain Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:43 pm

Gareth Thomas is the only lion back to have scored a try against the all blacks in the modern/pro era.

That must hail him as a great, surely?

by GunsGerms Wed 02 Jan 2013, 4:43 pm

15.Robnoxious
14.Tony O'Reilly
13.BOD
12.Gibson
11.Bowe
10.Sexton (2013 tour)
9.John Robbie or Colin Patterson probably.
8.Eric Miller/Heaslip
7.Fergus Slattery
6.Ferris (no test caps yet, just mid week.)
5.McBride
4.O'Connell
3.Wallace
2.Wood
1.Millar

Sorry I cheated.

by Guest Wed 02 Jan 2013, 5:21 pm

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:Gareth Thomas is the only lion back to have scored a try against the all blacks in the modern/pro era.

That must hail him as a great, surely?

They've only toured NZ once in the modern pro era. But yeah, it's still pretty poor that they only scored 1 try that tour. But, they were playing the best team in the world, so....

by ThePantomimeVillain Wed 02 Jan 2013, 5:24 pm

Three tries, but only one in the backs. Easterby and Moody got the others... So at least they were shared around the nations...almost.

by king_carlos Wed 02 Jan 2013, 5:51 pm

I'd throw Rala O'Reilly in as bag man. Every account you hear of the guy from Ireland players in the last few years or Lions from 09 say he's a legend and a great guy on tour!

Geech must surely get the head coach role as well.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Wed 02 Jan 2013, 7:17 pm

WJ McBride

by offload Wed 02 Jan 2013, 7:17 pm

Kearney
Duckham
BOD
Gibson
Robinson
Wilkinson
Armstrong
Rodber
Hill
Jeffrey
McBride
Johnson
Probyn
Wood
Smith

Coaches, Geech, Telfer and Ashton.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 02 Jan 2013, 7:58 pm

Working under the considerable handicap that I'm only using players I've seen (highlight reels etc destroy the context of matches and I'm afraid I've only had the time to see very few whole matches from tours before my time)...

15- Geordan Murphy
14- Shane Williams
13- Brian O'Driscoll
12- Scott Gibbs
11- Tommy Bowe
10- Neil Jenkins
9- Rob Howley
8- Simon Taylor
7- David Wallace
6- Stephen Ferris
5- Nathan Hines
4- Paul O'Connell
3- Adam Jones
2- Keith Wood
1- Cian Healey

by king_carlos Wed 02 Jan 2013, 8:49 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Working under the considerable handicap that I'm only using players I've seen (highlight reels etc destroy the context of matches and I'm afraid I've only had the time to see very few whole matches from tours before my time)...

15- Geordan Murphy
14- Shane Williams
13- Brian O'Driscoll
12- Scott Gibbs
11- Tommy Bowe
10- Neil Jenkins
9- Rob Howley
8- Simon Taylor
7- David Wallace
6- Stephen Ferris
5- Nathan Hines
4- Paul O'Connell
3- Adam Jones
2- Keith Wood
1- Cian Healey

I'm working under similar limitations by the looks of things. I'd go for pretty much the same team - swap Smith for Healy though.

1.Smith 2.Wood 3.Jones 4.Hines 5.POC 6.Ferris 7.Wallace 8.Taylor 9.Howley 10.Jenkins 11.Williams 12.Gibbs 13.BOD 14.Bowe 15.Murphy

by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 02 Jan 2013, 9:12 pm

McLaughlin
Wood
Price
Brown
McBride
Slattery
Calder
Davies M

Edwards
John
Davies G
Gibson
Dawes
O'Reilly
JPR

by Guest Wed 02 Jan 2013, 11:08 pm

Kearney
Tait
BOD
Guscott
Robinson
Wilkinson
Dawson
Rodber
Wallace
Hill
Shaw
Johnson
Wallace
Wood
Smith

by TycroesOsprey Wed 02 Jan 2013, 11:16 pm

ThePantomimeVillain wrote:I thought you just wanted a Way to ensure others picked some welsh boys maes anyway, I'm not heavily attached to my team just trying to oblige and be gentlemanly. Happy to fit in as many Scott's as you suggest.

Still here? Given Cockbain never played and Butler wasnt picked for the Lions your choices are about as ignorant as all your previous incarnations were about welsh rugby.

by Guest Wed 02 Jan 2013, 11:25 pm

TycroesOsprey wrote:
ThePantomimeVillain wrote:I thought you just wanted a Way to ensure others picked some welsh boys maes anyway, I'm not heavily attached to my team just trying to oblige and be gentlemanly. Happy to fit in as many Scott's as you suggest.

Still here? Given Cockbain never played and Butler wasnt picked for the Lions your choices are about as ignorant as all your previous incarnations were about welsh rugby.

He isn't going anywhere. Just have to get used to him sticking around. Unfortunately for you he's in with the mods isn't he.

by TycroesOsprey Wed 02 Jan 2013, 11:38 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
ThePantomimeVillain wrote:I thought you just wanted a Way to ensure others picked some welsh boys maes anyway, I'm not heavily attached to my team just trying to oblige and be gentlemanly. Happy to fit in as many Scott's as you suggest.

Still here? Given Cockbain never played and Butler wasnt picked for the Lions your choices are about as ignorant as all your previous incarnations were about welsh rugby.

He isn't going anywhere. Just have to get used to him sticking around. Unfortunately for you he's in with the mods isn't he.

Its pretty pathetic really. the mods respect the forum rules about as much as Pieter Van Zyl respects a referee. I wonder if there's something cultural in it?

by maestegmafia Thu 03 Jan 2013, 12:11 am

Guys the mods work Blwdi hard on here and deserve a great deal of respect for it.

If repeatedly banned posters want to try and ruin our threads then the moderators, will and do, deal with it in their way.

Please can we have our thread back? I don't want to see any more trolling or criticism of moderators...

by Guest Thu 03 Jan 2013, 2:50 am

Obviously from my team, I basically remember from 97 on. Pity really. I think if I could add Welshmen, I would pick Jenkins at 10 (for his goal kicking alone in SA), Adam Jones instead of Paul Wallace, probably Scott Quinnell for David Wallace (for his try and general performance in the first test in 01) and possibly Mike Phillips for Dawson, for his performance at 9 and 12 last Lions series.

by **George Carlin** Thu 03 Jan 2013, 6:48 am

Sadly, this exercise is a lot easier if you're Scottish - by 'seen', I am taking a liberty and assume the OP means players you have watched on television Whistle

:

15. JPR
14. Gerald Davies
13. John Dawes
12. Mike Gibson
11. JJ Williams/Tony O'Reilly (nope, can't decide)
10. Barry John
9. Gareth Edwards
8. Mervyn Davies
7. Peter Winterbottom/Fergus Slattery (again, can't decide)
6. Mike Teague
5. Willie John McBride
4. Martin Johnson
3. Graham Price
2. Keith Wood
1. Clive Williams

by maestegmafia Thu 03 Jan 2013, 10:18 am

George Carlin wrote:Sadly, this exercise is a lot easier if you're Scottish - by 'seen', I am taking a liberty and assume the OP means players you have watched on television :

15. JPR
14. Gerald Davies
13. John Dawes
12. Mike Gibson
11. JJ Williams/Tony O'Reilly (nope, can't decide)
10. Barry John
9. Gareth Edwards
8. Mervyn Davies
7. Peter Winterbottom/Fergus Slattery (again, can't decide)
6. Mike Teague
5. Willie John McBride
4. Martin Johnson
3. Graham Price
2. Keith Wood
1. Clive Williams

Good team their mate... I put a good number of scots in my side. They can be a very fine vintage.

by **George Carlin** Thu 03 Jan 2013, 12:22 pm

Competitive Scottish participants would be McLauchlan, Smith, Sole, Hastings, Tait, Armstrong, Calder, Telfer, McGeechan, Irvine and of course the legendary Gordon Brown. king

by fa0019 Thu 03 Jan 2013, 4:44 pm

Since I'm in my thirties and can only really remember tours from 89 onwards I will only select a team from then to 2009. I'm sure some of the greats such as Edwards, McBride etc would get in an all-time side but there is no way of me or any others of similar age having any relevant opinion on the matter.

I would say my 89-09 team is the following....

Pack
Smith, Moore, Wallace, Johnson, Davidson, Clarke, Calder & Richards

Backs
Jones, Andrew, Underwood, Gibbs, Guscott, Robinson & Hastings.

People often forget how good the Lions were in 89-93. They were far better than the last 2 tours.
In 89 AUS were like ENG in 01... gearing up towards being the dominant side in world rugby.
The 93 side came closer than anyone bar the 71 legends into beating a very good AB side.. guys like Ben Clarke were immense in that tour.

Guys like BOD etc have done precious little in a Lions jersey. Guscott has a whole reel of achievements in his Lions test career.... certainly the greatest lion of the modern era.

I would say that the 01 tour is probably the squad who had the greatest level of talent available.. but key injuries to guys like Greenwood, Dillaglio, Hill and the players not warming to the style of Henry meant they thoroughly underachieved their potential.

by GunsGerms Thu 03 Jan 2013, 5:00 pm

Guscott might have played for a great team but that doesnt make him a great player. Very hard to compare someone from the amature era with a professional but I dont think Guscott would have lasted long in the pro era given his fairly dainty frame.

He was very light and very fast which worked well back then but I doubt he would even get in the England team if he played today. Still a good player but no-where near as many strings to his bow as the once peerless BOD.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 Jan 2013, 5:05 pm

Are we meant to look at the 15 players who best represented and played best for the Lions or the 15 players who were selected for the Lions and were the best players? They are very different things, as noted above some excellent players (BOD, Dayglo) got early injuries in Lions Tours that reduced the impact they could have but other players weren't necessarily as good overall but had great Lions Tours

by maestegmafia Thu 03 Jan 2013, 5:07 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Are we meant to look at the 15 players who best represented and played best for the Lions or the 15 players who were selected for the Lions and were the best players? They are very different things, as noted above some excellent players (BOD, Dayglo) got early injuries in Lions Tours that reduced the impact they could have but other players weren't necessarily as good overall but had great Lions Tours

Make it your personal preference CJ. Who have you enjoyed watching the most from the other home nations over the years.

by fa0019 Thu 03 Jan 2013, 5:08 pm

He was lighter than modern centres because everyone was lighter in those days. Had he played today he would have been stronger.

He made it up to the 99 world cup and was still a very useful player then.

If what you're saying is true then guys like Beaumont and McBride would never have made the current side as they were all too short to be locks.

Just look at the his stats... he scored 30 tries for England in under 70 tests.... had he played for a team that wasn't mainly a 10 man team he would have scored bucket loads more. He was instrumental to the 89,93 and 97 sides.

So BOD covers all bases? Even though I disagree on that its what happens on the pitch... if so you could argue that Charlie Hodgson is the greatest 10 to ever play for England... why, well he could kick just as well as Jonny, he had a good break and was an excellent runner of a game. On paper he was a better player, in reality he wasn't good enough to be Jonny's boot boy.

by GunsGerms Thu 03 Jan 2013, 5:17 pm

Guscott didnt play for a 10 man team at all. He was part of an England team with one of the most attacking back lines I can remember. Carling, Guscott, Underwood x2 etc.

Tony underwood for example is still England's top try scorers. If England player 10 man rugby how did the ball get out to the wing? England dominated six nations rugby for a long time when Guscott played and it wasnt just because of him.

by fa0019 Thu 03 Jan 2013, 5:25 pm

GunsGerms

Are you serious? Do you actually remember those days?

England were an attacking side in the Carling era?

Jokes.

You are right about one thing... that England side had great attacking players but that doesn't mean that they played an attacking game.

Go back and watch some of their matches... their idea of attacking the gain line was an up & under. The backs in those days were mainly used as ball chasers.

It was 10 man rugby at its height.

Had Rory Underwood and Guscott played for France, NZ or AUS they would have been truly devestating (but its arguable they wouldn't have got in the side with guys like Sella, Bunce etc to compete with).

No one is suggesting Guscott was a one man team.

by maestegmafia Thu 03 Jan 2013, 5:30 pm

fa0019 wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Guscott might have played for a great team but that doesnt make him a great player. Very hard to compare someone from the amature era with a professional but I dont think Guscott would have lasted long in the pro era given his fairly dainty frame.

He was very light and very fast which worked well back then but I doubt he would even get in the England team if he played today. Still a good player but no-where near as many strings to his bow as the once peerless BOD.
He was lighter than modern centres because everyone was lighter in those days. Had he played today he would have been stronger.

He made it up to the 99 world cup and was still a very useful player then.

If what you're saying is true then guys like Beaumont and McBride would never have made the current side as they were all too short to be locks.

Just look at the his stats... he scored 30 tries for England in under 70 tests.... had he played for a team that wasn't mainly a 10 man team he would have scored bucket loads more. He was instrumental to the 89,93 and 97 sides.

So BOD covers all bases? Even though I disagree on that its what happens on the pitch... if so you could argue that Charlie Hodgson is the greatest 10 to ever play for England... why, well he could kick just as well as Jonny, he had a good break and was an excellent runner of a game. On paper he was a better player, in reality he wasn't good enough to be Jonny's boot boy.

Guscott did play in the professional era and did a good job of it too. Fantastic on the Lions tour in '97. A great player, the perfect outside centre. Size wise he is pretty much the same size as Conrad Smith and Brian O'Driscoll, 10kgs lighter, thats just modern training.

Here are a bunch of top outside centres over the ages.

Jeremy Guscott 6 ft 1 in m 84 kg
Brian O'Driscoll 5 ft 10 in 93 kg
Conrad Smith 6 ft 1 in 95 kg
Bleddyn Williams 5 ft 10 in 83 kg
Steve Fenwick 5 ft 10 in 84 kg
David Duckham 6 ft 1 in 93 kg
Danie Gerber 6 ft 1 in 88 kg
Jason Little 6 ft 1 in 95 kg
Frank Bunce 5 ft 11 in 85 kg
Phillipe Sella 5 ft 11 in 84 kg

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