v2 G.O.A.T Round 1 Group 8

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday’s group was another two horse race with could have gone either way, the voting was split between early candidates to win the entire competition footballing icon Pele and arguably the best pound for pound boxer of all time Sugar Ray Robinson. Pele eventually finished in first place with 38 votes and Robinson qualified in second place with 35 votes, leaving Michael Schumacher and Stephen Hendry exiting the tournament at the first attempt.

Today’s group sees Tennis, Track and Field, golf and Snooker compete for your votes.

We have the two participants championed today with articles written by forum members, so please feel free to submit your own argument below for the one not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Roger Federer- Tennis- Championed by emancipator

2001, Wimbledon Centre Court; defending and seven time Wimbledon champion 'Pistol' Pete Sampras, the man who had reigned at the top of men's tennis for close to a decade and considered by many to be unbeatable on this hallowed turf is at crisis point. At two sets all, 5-6 and 15-40 down in the deciding set, the ruthlessly efficient Sampras is facing match point.

It had been five years since anyone had managed to beat him in this tournament. His opponent a relatively unknown challenger in the form of Swiss teenager, 19 year old Roger Federer, is considered to be a prodigious but erratic talent. He seems to have all the shots but doesn't know quite how to put them together. His temperament has also been questionable. Today, however, things appear to be different. For nearly four hours the two protagonists have battled. To the surprise of the enthralled on lookers it was Federer who took the opening set. But Sampras hit back as any great champion is expected to do. The audience fully expected him to motor on and over power the youngster, except, as the match wore on, it appeared as if the Swiss was the one getting stronger, whilst Sampras appeared more and more uneasy. By the time the match score had reached two sets all, the tension had become palpable. The Centre Court crowd knew that there were no longer any favourites in this match; this would be a dog-fight, survival of the fittest - and the bravest; reputations would count for nothing.

On countless occasions throughout his career Sampras had bailed himself out of tight spots with his booming, swerving, pin-point accurate serve; the serve universally acclaimed as the greatest in history. He wipes sweat from his brow, places the ball against the racket, looks up, coils himself into the releasing position, then with a seamlessly fluid motion he serves a missile out wide to Federer's forehand and charges towards the net. Federer takes a step towards the ball and unleashes a forehand that whizzes past Sampras for a clean winner. He crumples to his knees in disbelief and celebration. A split-second of silence is followed by an eruption as the Centre Court crowd rise as one to salute a new King. The BBC commentator proclaims the birth of a new star. It is indeed the dawn of a new era.. The Federer era.

Looking back it was a poignant moment in sporting history. The one occasion on which the two greatest champions of the modern era were to play each other, and as fate would have it, on the court most beloved to either of them. It was a reminder of days gone by and a harbinger of those yet to come.

It would be another couple of years before Federer would really hit the heights, and what heights! 17 grand slams from 24 finals, including 7 Wimbledon titles. Over 300 weeks as the number one player in the world, including 237 consecutive weeks at the top spot. 6 World Tour Final victories from 8 finals. 23 consecutive grand slam semi-finals; 34 consecutive grand slam quarter finals (and counting); a run of 24 consecutive finals victories in all tournaments, 65 consecutive match wins on grass, 56 consecutive match wins on hardcourt, five consecutive Wimbledon and US Open titles, a run of 18 grand slam finals out of 19 grand slam tournaments played, 21 masters titles.. and on and on.. all of them records, many of them by a considerable distance. There are at least half a dozen Wikipedia articles dedicated to the career achievements and compiled statistics/records of Roger Federer. Peruse them at your own leisure - if you've got a few days to spare that is

But what makes Federer really stand out amongst the legends of tennis and indeed any sport is his unique game. Everything about his game is beautiful, everything is seemingly effortless. He glides around the court unhurried, with uncanny footwork and balletic grace. A sixth sense for being at the right place at the right time. He plays with perfect technique. Like an artist, Federer creates masterpieces; the court is his canvas. At heart, he is an attacking player who plays the game the right way; always looking to seize the initiative, to hit outright winners, to win spectacularly and brilliantly. He can hit every shot in the book. But he can also grind and play great defense. If it is so required he can switch to plan b, c, d, whatever it takes. In a sport dominated by super athletes, Federer at his peak was as fast and durable as they come. Modern tennis is played predominantly from the baseline (a stark contrast to the tennis of Sampras's heydey which was mainly serve and volley based, with the majority of points won at the net) and Roger Federer can play the baseline game as well as anyone. But he can do so much more. He can mix spins and slices, lobs and dropshots, powerful winners and delicate touch, from the back of the court or at the net. It is this unique fusion of power, skill and aesthetic grace, that has captured the imagination of millions of fans around the world. Federer doesn't just win, he wins with style.

When Federer established himself as the number one player in the world in late 2003 people were already starting to whisper about this potential phenomenon. He emerged from a group of fantastically talented youngsters: Safin, Hewitt, Ferrero, Nalbandian, Roddick, Haas, to establish himself as THE man to beat. As the years rolled by he gathered steam, and the initial curiosity that follows the emergence of any great talent - the excitement of thinking about all the possibilites - was replaced by amazement then incredulity and finally awe. As Andre Agassi said, 'Federer was the guy who came and took the game light years ahead.' He looked like something from the future. The American media even dubbed him 'Darth Federer' (in reference to his super-natural gifts and black clothing) at the 2007 US Open. More than anything else, the Roger Federer phenomenon turned the sport of tennis, which had been suffering a slump in popularity following the years of serve dominated play, into one of the most popular spectator sports in the world. He was and remains to this day, although not to the same extent, a phenom. Or as David Foster Wallace wrote in the New York Times:

"Roger Federer is one of those rare, preternatural athletes who appear to be exempt, at least in part, from certain physical laws. Good analogues here include Michael Jordan, who could not only jump inhumanly high but actually hang there a beat or two longer than gravity allows, and Muhammad Ali, who really could “float” across the canvas and land two or three jabs in the clock-time required for one. There are probably a half-dozen other examples since 1960. And Federer is of this type — a type that one could call genius, or mutant, or avatar. He is never hurried or off-balance. The approaching ball hangs, for him, a split-second longer than it ought to. His movements are lithe rather than athletic. Like Ali, Jordan, Maradona, and Gretzky, he seems both less and more substantial than the men he faces. Particularly in the all-white that Wimbledon enjoys getting away with still requiring, he looks like what he may well (I think) be: a creature whose body is both flesh and, somehow, light." http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/sports/playmagazine/20federer.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 (By the way - this article by Wallace entitled 'Roger Federer as a religious experience' is a great read)

Federer's style and success has allowed him to transcend the sport in a way that few sportsmen in history can match. He is a record four time winner of the prestigious Laureus Sportsman of the Year Award. In a recent poll conducted across 25 countries with 51,000 participants he was voted as the second most trusted person in the world after Nelson Mandela. During the Beijing Olympics opening ceremony, Federer received the loudest cheer of the night when he carried the Swiss flag into the stadium https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddojLWIjKK4 At the London Olympics Federer's pre-Olympic presser had more than 700 journalists, more than any other star at the games. He was mobbed by crowds during his recent tour of South America with political and sporting dignitaries (including Pele and Maradonna) feting him. He has the most impressive endorsement portfolio in all of sports including blue chip companies such as Nike, Mercedes-Benz (global ambassador), Wilson, Rolex, Credite Suisse, Gillette, Moet & Chandon etc.

But despite all the accolades Federer has remained a likeable, down to earth person. His fellow tennis professionals have voted him the winner of the annual Steffan Edberg Sportsmanship award a record eight times. He is the President of the ATP players council and in this capacity has campaigned for the benefit of all the players on the tour, including negotiating a fairer distribution of prize money for players who lose in the earlier rounds of the slams. The Roger Federer foundation is a charitable organisation with the stated mission of empowering children through education; it is involved in numerous projects throughout Africa.

It is incredible that with so many distractions (he's married with two young children to boot) Federer has still managed to stay at the top of such a global and competitive sport. As things stand he is the number 2 ranked player in the world and indeed was, just a few short months ago, the number one player in the world. Tennis has traditionally been a young man's sport but Roger Federer has redefined the parameters. I firmly believe that Federer is one of the outstanding candidates for the greatest sportsman of all time accolade. He fits all of the criteria: a sporting phenomenon, unmatched in his sport, an incredible record in a globally competitive sport which is both physical and skill-based, a global sporting icon who is one of the most popular sportsmen on the planet and a great role model, who plays hard but fair. But of course the Federer story is not over yet. He has declared his intention to play until the 2016 Olympic Games. There may yet be a few more pages to add to Wikipedia


Some quotes:

"[In the modern game], you're either a clay court specialist, a grass court specialist or a hard court specialist ... or you're Roger Federer" - Jimmy Connors

"He is the most naturally talented player I have ever seen in my life" - John McEnroe

"He moves like a whisper and executes like a wrecking ball" - Nick Bollettieri (legendary tennis coach)

"He is the most perfect machine I have ever seen playing tennis" - Diego Maradonna

"Federer is capable of playing shots that other players don't even think of" - Ivan Lendl

"We are witnessing history. This is the most dominant athlete on planet earth today" - Jim Courier (4 time grand slam champion)

"Federer is the best player in history - no other player has ever had so much quality" - Rafael Nadal

"Roger's got too many shots, too much talent in one body. It's hardly fair that one person can do all this—his backhands, his forehands, volleys, serving, his court position. The way he moves around the court, you feel like he's barely touching the ground. That's the sign of a great champion." - Rod Laver

"He's the best I've ever played against. There's nowhere to go. There's nothing to do except hit fairways, hit greens and make putts. Every shot has that sort of urgency on it. I've played a lot of them [other players], so many years; there's a safety zone, there's a place to get to, there's something to focus on, there's a way. Anything you try to do, he potentially has an answer for and it's just a function of when he starts pulling the triggers necessary to get you to change to that decision." - Andre Agassi

"He's a real person. He's not an enigma. Off the court he's not trying to be somebody. If you met him at McDonald's and you didn't know who he was, you would have no idea that he's one of the best athletes in the world" - Andy Roddick

"Today I was playing my best tennis, trying lots of different things, but nothing worked. When you're playing like that and he still comes up with all those great shots you really have to wonder if he's even from the same planet" - Novak Djokovic

emancipator

ps - For those of you who haven't seen the The Fed Express in action, the following video might give you some idea of what he's all about
http://vimeo.com/40765561

Tiger Woods- Golf- Championed by Adam D

"So far these GOAT debates have been fascinating reading. What sports are sports? How does a sportsman shine if they are part of a team? How can someone who is not athletically fit be considered a ""great"" sportsman? How can someone be considered the GOAT if they are not even the best in their sport?

Well all of these arguments could be levelled at Mr Woods to a certain extent, however, I will prove why all of these points in isolation do not matter to Tiger.

Tiger Woods is not just the greatest golfer of his generation, he is the greatest of all time. Whats that I hear you say? Jack Niklaus has won more?
Well for a start, he hasnt. Niklaus HAS won more Majors but not tournaments.

In fact, the person with the most tournament wins is Sam Snead who dominated from 1936 to 1965, clocking up 7 major wins. But I doubt he is going to grace this list anytime soon.

Lets get back to Niklaus vs Woods because lets face it, thats the golfing GOAT debate that will spring up. Now I like Niklaus and I like Woods, but which is better? There is only one way to find out....actually, its a matter of opinion and for me the reason why Woods outshines the Niklaus era is down to the talent pool around them.

Let me talk about that for a second. In Niklaus' era, we had the big names and historical superstars of the sport. In Woods era, we have Major winners such as Keegan Bradley and Zach Johnson. Whats my point you may ask as this is surely a selling point for Jack?

My point is that in the 60,70 and 80s, golf was dominated by a group of great players in a smaller pool. And that was down to the social class aspect of the sport. Fewer people played, and skill was the biggest factor in winning a tournament. Today, everyone is welcomed onto the many, many more courses around the world. And due to big hitting taking precedent over course management, the field has become much more even and full of depth.

Tigers dominance in a more scientific era of golf is that much more impressive. And its also the reason why he should be voted above the likes of Federer and Phil Taylor and Ronnie O'Sullivan. Tiger doesnt have to beat a single opponent on each day. He has won these tournaments by beating EVERY player over 4 days.

This is not a case of playing better than this rounds opponent but a case of playing better than every person in the competition. That is why his achievements should be considered above the other individual sports on this list.

So what has Tiger achieved?

At age 2, he appeared on TV putting against Bob Hope! At age three, he shot a 48 over nine holes over the Cypress Navy course. Before turning seven, Tiger won the Under Age 10 section of the Drive, Pitch, and Putt competition, held at the Navy Golf Course in Cypress, California.

In 1984 at the age of eight, he won the 9–10 boys' event, the youngest age group available, at the Junior World Golf Championships. He first broke 80 at age eight. He went on to win the Junior World Championships six times, including four consecutive wins from 1988 to 1991.

And THEN he went to college!

By the time he turned Pro in 1996, he had already amassed dozens of junior titles.

I am going to sum up his career in a very brief manner as the stats talk for themselves.

Woods has won 74 official PGA Tour events including 14 majors. He is 14–1 when going into the final round of a major with at least a share of the lead. He has been heralded as ""the greatest closer in history"" by multiple golf experts. He owns the lowest career scoring average and the most career earnings of any player in PGA Tour history.

He has spent the most consecutive and cumulative weeks atop the world rankings. He is one of five players (along with Gene Sarazen,Ben Hogan, Gary Player, and Jack Nicklaus) to have won all four professional major championships in his career, known as the Career Grand Slam, and was the youngest to do so. Woods is the only player to have won all four professional major championships in a row, accomplishing the feat in the 2000–2001 seasons.


On top of this he has another 38 European Tour wins and other worldwide tournaments.

Simply put, no one in the modern era has dominated the sport like Tiger. He has been so dominant that he won the US Open in 2008 on one leg (He was recovering from Knee surgery before the tournament and had to have major knee surgery afterwards).

Outside of his sporting achievements it has to be noted that Tiger Woods has transcended just playing the game. He has a successful video game franchise named after him - when was the last time anyone played Roger Federers Tennis 2013 or Jerry Rice American Football 2013?

The final thing I want to touch upon is his infidelity. Some may discount him for this very reason but that is ludicrous. However, we must remember that Tiger hasnt commited a crime. He hasnt taken drugs to cheat at his sport. He hasnt dodged a military draft or served jail time for serious crimes. He cheated on his wife (albeit on numerous occasions) which might make him less of a man but not a sporting great.

Tiger deserves to be the v2 GOAT.

Steve Davis OBE - Championed by VTR

A great sportsperson can be defined in a number of ways. We could have the great champion, someone who dominated their sport for a period. Or someone that had an incredibly long career at the top. Even someone who fundamentally changed the way their sport was played. It is certainly a rare specimen that can be classified as two let alone all three of these.

Growing up in the 80’s there was one name above all others that was synonymous with Snooker: Steve Davis. There were popular characters such as Alex Higgins and Jimmy White but only one great champion. Often mocked for being boring, Davis did his talking on the snooker table, taking apart opponents in a period of domination only approached since by Stephen Hendry.

I will come on to his record but let’s start with impact. Why was Davis considered boring? I think simply because he was the first player to really take a fully professional approach to snooker and recognise it for what it was: a growing sport where riches could be made. Is practicing so hard you leave nothing to chance really boring? Refusing to drink during matches boring? Playing with intensity? I would say not – and almost all players that have followed have realised that being an endearing character does not pay the bills and deliver silverware, it is only winning that will do that. Davis’ approach drastically improved the standard of the game, paving the way for the incredible level of play achieved by future greats such as Hendry, O’Sullivan and John Higgins.

So what of that record? Davis won 6 out of the 10 World Championships in the 1980’s. Add to that numerous other titles including several victories in The Masters and UK Championship and you can only be awestruck by his dominance and consistency. Even in rare defeat, Davis will be remembered. The 1985 final, watched by a UK TV audience of almost 20 million people in a beyond midnight finish went to the final black. Taylor won, Davis was gracious in defeat and certainly played his part in the greatest match ever. In what is likely to be his final tally, Davis has reached 41 ranking finals, winning 28 titles.

Snooker is not a physical pursuit but I would argue it is a young man’s game. Stephen Hendry, Davis’s main contender for the snooker GOAT won his last world title aged 30. A sport based on such precision naturally favours the undiminished motor skills of the younger player. Davis is unique in his longevity, and has only relatively recently showed signs of a terminal decline. Of course his period of domination is long over, but Davis has remained competitive well past the age of 45. Aged 48 Davis was still good enough to reach the UK Championship final in 2005 and had a season in the all-important Top 16 at the age of 50. He has the ability to qualify for major events to this day; the competitive instinct refuses to be extinguished. One of his greatest coups was in 2010 when he beat defending champion John Higgins to progress to the World Championship Quarter Finals. A huge shock no doubt but in some ways not that surprising: every player would have known that on his day this elder statesman still had the game to defeat them.

And finally back to that personality: Davis has a fantastic dry wit, makes time for the fans and provides analysis and commentary of the highest quality. The often vile British media with their hypocritical dual delight-and-disgust at sportspeople that make a mess of their lives will chip away at characters like Davis with the boring tag as a mark of their own disappointment. There’s no story to tell outside of his sporting excellence, Davis is a true class act on and off the baize.

The pioneer, the great champion, the evergreen. Davis is certainly all three.

i am very sure woods and almost every rich dude gives to charity etc.

no bearing on this debate,,

Emancipator, thats ok.

I just happen to disagree with you.

Just please dont dismiss my opinion though as a wind up...OK?

mystiroakey wrote:i am very sure woods and almost every rich dude gives to charity etc.

no bearing on this debate,,

Most of them do, whether it's out of genuine altruism or not we'll never know.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Emancipator, thats ok.

I just happen to disagree with you.

Just please dont dismiss my opinion though as a wind up...OK?

Ok.. now I'm getting a bit of a psycho vibe.. I promise not to dismiss your opinion as a wind up, never ever again because you don't do wind ups.

Just kidding buddy, just messing with you.

But of course.. I am the emancipator.

Beware oh minions, the evil entity BOO (Oh BOOOOO000000ooooo........) lurks in every shadow.



rotapicname - intergalactic traveller and pursuer of BOO.

Nice write up E

But I still stand by my view that whoever has the better computer game based on them should be the GOAT (unless Daley Thompson is one of the 64, cos he would definitely win!)

That'll be John Madden then.

I prefer TW Golf to Madden Football but I will give you that Madden has sold more units than Woods (90m compared to 25m surprisingly)

Lara Croft - GOAT

JuliusHMarx wrote:Lara Croft - GOAT

Its actually Mario!

Adam D wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Lara Croft - GOAT

Its actually Mario!

Are we going to have to write essays?

Look I appreciate this process isn't easy but..

can someone explain how Federer, Woods and Gebrelassie are in the same group when Ronnie O'Sullivan, Phil Taylor and Gavin Hastings were in Group 1?

theslosty wrote:Look I appreciate this process isn't easy but..

can someone explain how Federer, Woods and Gebrelassie are in the same group when Ronnie O'Sullivan, Phil Taylor and Gavin Hastings were in Group 1?

The draw was random, it was the fairest way to do it, seeding was considered, but where do you start with that process. The luck of the draw has already come into play and will continue to do so, thats the essence of a world cup style format, otherwise we would have a 64 person poll.

Hope your enjoying it though

JuliusHMarx wrote:Spaghetti - did you type all that out with one hand?

We have always known that Roger Federer was special, that he was somewhat otherworldly – possessed with a countenance that was divine.

Now we know why.

After years of wandering down the path of immortality, he has finally emerged from the darkness of July 6th 2008, and into the dazzling spectre of enlightenment.

King Roger’s path to enlightenment has been long and storied. It all began in the summer of 2001, when he was visited by the first of the Four Sights: The Old Man. Pete Sampras. As we have come to expect from the Great One, Federer was empowered by this sight – defeating The Old Man in five sets. A symbolic changing of the guard.

The Second Sight came a year later when he was tormented by The Diseased Man. Mario Ancic. The plague of the Croat infested Federer’s soul but, though damaged, he was not disheartened – like all great philosophers, Roger knew that this would be no easy journey. Destiny would have it that Ancic’s disease would return to haunt the King many years later – a bout of Glandular Fever in 2008.

The Third Sight was The Corpse. The Corpse of Andre Agassi’s legendry career. In the final of the 2005 U.S Open, Federer overcame the American’s challenge in a thrilling and emotional match. Agassi would retire a year later – never to be seen again.

Finally, The Fourth Sight was The Ascetic Man. Rafael Nadal. The Spaniard, like Federer, was on a quest. He had ventured from his hellish Roland Garros home in an attempt to seize Federer’s birthright - The Wimbledon Crown. The Ascetic Man’s rudimentary style and lack of finesse convinced Federer that he had to save the game of tennis. Nadal, like Nosferatu himself, was hell-bent on sucking the game into a defensive hell. Only an enlightened man could stop him...

It is said that Federer spent 49 days meditating on Centre Court. During that time he was presented with many temptations. His coaches suggested a change in playing style. His wife suggested he quit. And, under the gaze of the moon, it was suggested that he, like Nadal, shamelessly resort to inflicting moonballing torture upon his adversaries. He resisted.

At this point, he is believed to have realized complete awakening and insight into the nature and cause of the game’s suffering, which was the over-abundance of skill-deficient baseliners, along with steps necessary to eliminate it.

At The French Open, we all saw the culmination of his efforts. Federer was able to banish Nadal once and for all. His story had come full circle – his journey was complete.

Roger Federer is no mere G.O.A.T, he is The Buddha.

I had the joy of meeting Gebreselassie during the olympics and he is exactly how he appears, beaming smile and keen to speak to anyone and everyone, gave my missus a peck on the cheek. We spoke at length but the majority of it was based upon his disappointment at missing out on running at London something he had set his eyes on for years, a large part of his reasoning for coming out of retirement. A delightful man and the greatest long distance runner of all time.

It is very difficult to choose a GOAT, especially across different sports, because the yardsticks and trophies vary and sometimes random draws of personalities create sport vs sport discussions leading to subjectivity and the individual's affinity for a particular sport.

The names are very illustrious with long dominant careers, in some cases cursed by the human antecedents. Woods is such an example, his extra-curricular activities became the focus of a nation with financial after-effects. He is recovering from such trauma.

Nicklaus, a wonderful golfer, and a very fine gentleman, stands at the pinnacle of Golf, unscathed by personal scandal as do Federer and Gebreselassie.

Federer is unmatched in the Tennis world, as Gebreselassie is in the running world. Both contribute to non-sport endeavours within their respective spheres of influence.

Even if we can slide a sheet of paper in between the respective GOATness of each of these individuals, it is hard to fathom such separation. Is it really an objective separation? Can we, as humans, really differentiate to such a degree?

I will show my bias for a specific sport and then a player, by voting for Federer, as I have done. This vote could have easily gone to HG or Nicklaus or Woods, if my liking for their respective sports was higher than Tennis. (I used to caddy for a Golfing friend but still preferred Tennis over Golf).

I would also respectfully like to add Pancho Gonzales to the Pantheon of Tennis Legends as well as my namesake, 'Rocket' Laver. I assume they will, or may already have shown up in one of the 16 arbitrary groups of 4 individuals, if I understand the main thread.

I have missed R1 Group 1 through 7, only because the indefatigable Emancipator, did not exhort his minions to join the fray earlier. I will make every effort to look at the previous groups and watch this space in the future.

Very grateful to MToTheC (or MCToTheTwo = MC-squared) for conceiving this and many posters who have contributed so far to these threads.

laver,
Hope you were around to see (the ageing) Pancho Gonzales vs Charlie Passarell at Wimbers over many late 60's early 70's hours. Compelling.

kwinigolfer wrote:laver,
Hope you were around to see (the ageing) Pancho Gonzales vs Charlie Passarell at Wimbers over many late 60's early 70's hours. Compelling.

Kwini - you mean that match has finished now!

guildford,
I thought you might pick up on my Joe Davis reference . . . . . . Before your time then!

Purely for inspiring such a brilliant song from Steel Panther, it has to be Tiger Woods!

laverfan wrote:

Very grateful to MToTheC (or MCToTheTwo = MC-squared) for conceiving this and many posters who have contributed so far to these threads.

Just want to second this. Keep up the good work, this has been the best thing ever to appear on this site IMHO. The quality of the write-ups puts most so-called journalists to shame, all have contained a great balance of knowledge and enthusiasm.

I like the format with the luck of the draw as it makes for more interesting debate, even the wildcards have been good (Hastings!) as they generate discussion.

I think in an ideal world it would be nice to have a true wc format- with seeds etc, however how do we rank them to start with!! so it does defy the point.

Yep i am echoing the love.. MtotheC well done. This brings more posters together.

kwinigolfer wrote:guildford,
I thought you might pick up on my Joe Davis reference . . . . . . Before your time then!

Kwini - yes, Joe Davis was a little before my time although that hasn't stopped me singing his praises on these threads. Without doubt, snooker's GOAT. Saw his brother Fred quite a few times. Famous bit of commentary when an elderly Fred needed to place his leg above the table to play a difficult shot: ''[/i]Fred's having trouble getting his leg over!''.

kwinigolfer wrote:laver,
Hope you were around to see (the ageing) Pancho Gonzales vs Charlie Passarell at Wimbers over many late 60's early 70's hours. Compelling.

Yes, I love that 1969 W match. I relive it every night as I saw it. An amazing match between a 41 yo and a 24 yo. A self-taught Tennis player, despite his 'dark' side, a fantastic athlete. It is rather unfortunate in his later days to have suffered so much. BTW, he was married to Andre Agassi's sister Rita, and Agassi was very gracious during Pancho's later days. It still makes me cry when I think about Pancho. If you get a chance, read Bud Collins's views on Pancho.