What's in a colour and emblem?

The first NZ touring side to travel abroad went to NSW in Australia in 1884. Their uniform was not All Black (they weren't a full representative NZ side as Otago, Canterbury and Southland only joined the NZRFU in 1895). It was dark blue with a gold fernleaf over the left breast.

It was not until October 1888 when the first truly representative NZ side toured beyond Australia. They were called The Natives even though originally they were called The New Zealand Maori. After five Pakeha or European origin players were selected to strengthen the touring party, the team was renamed to show that all the touring party were NZ born. Their uniform had the familiar black jersey and silver fern (white as far as I'm concerned).

Only on the Originals tour in 1905 did the name All Blacks get coined. The name found more acceptance in the UK and it took some time after for the name to get acceptance in NZ. From there, the legacy of the All Blacks was born. It became a source of national pride and even though it wasn't the best material for being in the sun (nowadays the technology exists to reflect light off black material and not absorb the heat in direct sunlight) it was used by many other NZ athletes. When I think of NZ running greats like Jack Lovelock, Peter Snell and John Walker and the black singlet, I invariably well up with pride. Black has become the national colour for teams like basketball (the Tall Blacks), hockey (the Black Sticks), netball (The Silver Ferns), badminton (controversially named Black Cocks and sadly the name has been withdrawn because the name was hard to swallow for some) and many others.

There is no real explanation for why the colour was first introduced. It was first used as a military insignia in the Boer War and the black flag and silver fern is an unofficial flag of NZ. Why it was first chosen is a mystery. But it's impossible for me to think of another colour and when I see the black shirt worn all around the world, it's a source of national pride to me.

So I was wondering whether the rest of you from other nations (or Kiwis to tell me I'm talking out of my kumara) could explain why your team has the colour for your national rugby jersey and whether that is a common colour for all your athletes. Is Ireland green for example because it is known as the Emerald Isle (and is that because it's always raining and everything is green or do you have lots of emeralds?). Are you happy with your colour and if not would you want to change it? If you support Holland, I'd be pretty miffed with having to wear orange as a colour. Should the IRB be strict on allowing jersey manufacturers to change the home strip? For example, the French dark, dark dark blue strip that forced NZ into that cursed teale or the fiasco that was the Scotland NZ RWC 2007 match where the strips seemed identical.

Symbols like the Springboks and Wallabies have provided some teams with their names but I've never anyone call Scotland The Thistles or Wales the Prince of Wales feathers. Why do some emblems get picked and are you happy with those choices as well?

yeah but didn't the new Zealand side coin the name "all Blacks" from Neath who were the original All Blacks?

also I think its Northern Southern as generally you never hear any NH teams given nicknames, yet SH teams are more usually known by their nicknames, the Pumas, The springboks, The Convicts (sorry meant wallabies!) and the All blacks.

What's in a colour and emblem? About £60 million a year if you ask Cardiff City owners

welshy6 wrote:yeah but didn't the new Zealand side coin the name "all Blacks" from Neath who were the original All Blacks?

also I think its Northern Southern as generally you never hear any NH teams given nicknames, yet SH teams are more usually known by their nicknames, the Pumas, The springboks, The Convicts (sorry meant wallabies!) and the All blacks.

Not so much with the home nations, but the French are Les Bleus and the Italians are Azzurri (named after the colours of their respective shirts).

I am a bit of a purist. The current Scotland strip grinds my gears with it's flashes of Gold. It looks really lame.

As for nicknames The Wallabies, The Boks and the All Blacks have become household names, equally so have the Pumas and to an extent France being called les Bleus.

I have heard the phrase "proud to pull on the thistle" echoed by the likes of McGechan, Telfer and others to describe playing for Scotland but we have avoided a nickname.

Probably for the best since I can think of a few things to call the Scottish rugby team, here are a few :

Gash, Rancid, Beans, Woeful, Hopeless, Rubbish, Pants, Dross, Beelin', Brutal, Grim..... I could go on but you get the idea.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

welshy6 wrote:yeah but didn't the new Zealand side coin the name "all Blacks" from Neath who were the original All Blacks?

also I think its Northern Southern as generally you never hear any NH teams given nicknames, yet SH teams are more usually known by their nicknames, the Pumas, The springboks, The Convicts (sorry meant wallabies!) and the All blacks.

Not so much with the home nations, but the French are Les Bleus and the Italians are Azzurri (named after the colours of their respective shirts).

Knew I had forgotten something there! Cheers Cyril!

In regards to colours, NH teams do it properly ( ) by having their shirts the colour of the primary colour of their flag, however the SH I think just decided what to go for whatever colour their backs want to make them look 'pretty' :L

Well the wallabies gold only came about as standard in 1961, before that was the colour of the state the game is hosted in, and on tours seems pretty much depends which state wants it more, so will be either sky blue or maroon jersey while blue and maroon horizontal stripes did make the odd appreance.

Even the name wallabies came cause the name kangaroo, more assoicated with Oz, were taken by the league side which formed before, also taking the green jersey.
The green was actually tried against the kiwis but was too close to the black. Gold was worn 1961 against the boks on tour to South Africa, specifically to avoid a colour clash with the boks, and stayed since.

Cardiff City are called the Bluebirds and have been for over 100 years - The Bluebirds now play in red and I've heard they've got the largest following of schizophrenic patients in the UK

Looking at various articles and forums, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer for why Scotland's sports teams play in a blue which is significantly darker than the flag. According to legend, the flag, or Saltire, is derived from the shape of clouds forming a St Andrew's cross in the blue sky on the eve of a battle in early Scottish history (Picts v Northumbrians). This was taken as a blessing from St Andrew and the Picts/Scots went on to victory, and the image became the flag of the emerging nation. Interestingly, this was the last time any blue was spotted in the Scottish sky. So the flag should be a sky blue, although a specific colour was only made official a few years ago.

One suggestion for the use of a darker shade is that the first international football side was made up entirely of Queen's Park players, who wore their club strips, which were dark blue at the time. However apparently the rugby side wore dark blue earlier the same year. This may be because the blue used for the Scottish element of the Union flag is a darker blue than the Saltire itself. This is another debate in itself, but I've seen it suggested that a darker shade was adopted here due to the availability of hard-wearing dyes needed for naval use. Or perhaps this was just the only blue available in rugby shirt form!

The new Scotland away strip now incorporates the flag itself with the lighter shade of blue, however I can't see the football side adopting the lighter version due to its similarity to Rangers colours.

I wouldn't say I have a particular attachment to the shade of blue we use, it wouldn't bother me too much if a lighter one was adopted, but things like the 2007 match you mentioned do annoy me. There is no need for all the piping and other details that caused the problem, I'd much prefer a plain block colour with only very subtle detailing. It also annoys me when change colours are too similar to the home ones, even sometimes the same colours inverted which has caused problems for Edinburgh this week. One strip black and red, the other red and black? That's just stupid.

welshy6 there are various theories as to how the All Blacks got their name. According to Wikipedia, that ever reliable source, The Originals or the Original All Blacks didn't leave NZ with that name. The team departed New Zealand as the New Zealand Football Team, or, simply The New Zealanders, though names such as Maorilanders and Colonials were also applied.

Reference to the team by the name "All Blacks" first appeared during the Originals tour when, according to Billy Wallace, a London newspaper reported that the New Zealanders played as if they were "all backs". Wallace claimed that due to a typographical error, subsequent references were to "All Blacks". Wallace was the last of the Originals to pass away, so this explanation for the name's origins is widely believed.

However, the Express and Echo in Devon, reporting after the Originals match there, referred to "The All Blacks, as they are styled by reason of their sable and unrelieved costume. Incidentally, the papers were so surprised by these colonial commoners beating an English team, the result was actually reported in the papers as Devon 55 NZ 4 even though it was the other way around.

RuggerRadge in NZ, normally players say they are proud to wear the silver fern as well as say pull on the black jersey. Is the thistle an emblem for other Scottish sports as well? And what about that purple/navy blue colour? Always striking but has it anything to do with tartan colours?

Cyril I know from my sketchy English history the War of the Roses saw the Tudor Henry take on the white rose of Richard but does the rose come from that historical event. The St George flag makes white and red a natural choice I guess.

It is true we in the southern hemisphere often come up with names. But always. Fiji and Tonga in my mind don't have nicknames and Manu Samoa is to distinguish Western Samoa from American Samoa. Les Bleus makes a better nickname than les Coqs Sportifs and the Azurri is a catchy name for me. But why no Shamrocks or Daffodils?

What's in a colour? I went to Neath Grammar School in the early 70's and our school colours were blue with gold hoops. At the first training session every player (under 12's) arrived ina full all black Neath strip. We ended up wearing our own kits for the school matches - Powerful thing that black strip Neeeeeef Neeeeeeeeef Neeeeeef

So many reasons Ruby why Black is the best.

It's dark and intimidating. Add in a haka and put the brown bread in front of the white bread and you amp up the intimidation even more.

Referees are blind to the dark arts because they cannot see them being performed. Black = darkness and what the ref can't see he can't whistle. This is why Richie McCaw et al get away with murder.

Black is slimming. If you don't play the game or you do but are in the front row and like a good pie and ale after the game, then chances are you're on the large side. Let's face it, rugby and drinking go hand in hand. Maybe not while you're playing (depends how social your team is) but certainly after the game. Put on black and watch those kilos slip away...

Think of how many rocking tunes have black in them. Black rocks. Name me a colour with a harder image in music. Same as rugby.

Kia - the colour has the same effect with drink, just look at the kudos in a pint of Guinness

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Name me a colour with a harder image in music.

Black
Black Magic Woman
Black Night
Back in Black

White
White Room
White Wedding
White Christmas

Hmmm... I think Black takes it.

Of course, there's always Black and White and Ebony and Ivory for the best of both worlds

Interesting OzT. There have been some pretty gash jersies over the years for the Wallabies. The one with the stars on it and the mish mash of colours was particularly hideous. The green and gold have always been my iconic strip for me in terms of when I think of Australian rugby. Those epic showdowns between Kirwan and Campese, Little and Horan against Little and Bunce. They are the green and gold (why is it not the gold and green because gold is more dominant?) for me. I guess that's when I grew up with rugby. Interesting that they were league associated colours (at least for me) prior to 1961.

Is the gold supposed to represent the desert? Or the precious metals underneath the desert?

In 2005 a study by two anthropologists at the University of Durham found that when two closely-matched opponents met, the one wearing red was slightly more likely to win.

Mind you, they based their research on the boxing, taekwondo and wrestling results at the 2004 Athens Olympics. Rugby didn't come into it, let alone the All Blacks!

I guess there was only red and blue to choose from in that study. Good omen if Wales play Scotland or France this year. The odds favour you.

I've always thought red would make an interesting away strip for NZ. Then again I'm from Canterbury where the strip is red and black so it obviously makes sense to me. We all know the red M & Ms taste the best.

The Irish strip is an interesting one for me. I wouldn't pick green high up on my list of colours to wear. I won an Irish jersey in a pub quiz here in Madrid (the question was who was the reserve flyhalf for Andrew Merthens in the 95 World Cup. People looked at me suspiciously because I gave the right answer before the guy finished the question. As it turned out I did know the guy but I didn't know what the question was going to be. Just that it was going to be on rugby.) and I must confess I do like the colour. The Spanish have a good view of the Irish so it always gets favourable comments here as well.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Interesting OzT. There have been some pretty gash jersies over the years for the Wallabies. The one with the stars on it and the mish mash of colours was particularly hideous. The green and gold have always been my iconic strip for me in terms of when I think of Australian rugby. Those epic showdowns between Kirwan and Campese, Little and Horan against Little and Bunce. They are the green and gold (why is it not the gold and green because gold is more dominant?) for me. I guess that's when I grew up with rugby. Interesting that they were league associated colours (at least for me) prior to 1961.

Is the gold supposed to represent the desert? Or the precious metals underneath the desert?

Probably cause the poem is called Green and Gold Malaria??

Yip we have the boks to thanks for pushing us onto a standard colour for the national side,

Interesting thread. Ireland is green in every sport. Presumably because it's been known as the "emerald isle" since before these sports were invented.

But could anyone enlighten me as to why Leinster are blue, Munster are red, Ulster are white and Connacht are green?

Because if you look at the ancient provincial flags, Leinster are green, Ulster are yellow, Munster are blue and Connacht are blue and white. With Ulster some might associate the white and red with the NI flag. But I think Ulster rugby pre-dates even the idea of a Northern Ireland state by a few a decades. Where did these rugby provincial colurs come from? Did Leinster adopt County Dublins blue and Munster adopt the red of County Cork?

you see I always thought aussies wore yellow.......
but anyway red for wales is pretty obvious, after all we have a flaming great big red dragon on the forefront of our flag! which came from the legend of Merlin where there were two dragons asleep in a cave, upon where a welsh king wanted his castle built, the building of the castle woke the dragons who fought, one was red which represented wales, while the white dragon represented the old enemy "England." safe to say the Red dragon won and has kept on winning....

The stag of Munster and the stag come from the the McCarthy crest/ standard who ruled Munster, or most of Munster consistently for around six centuries. The stag had mythical associations going back to pagan times linked to the god Cernunnos. Carthach who founded the line ruled in around the tenth century. The red probably comes from the stag as well which was often scarlet on a white background. A red deer was supposedly one of the Sidh taking the form of a deer so having it on a standard was honouring supernatural entities.

The three castles on the flag of Munster the province represent the three divisions of theas Mumhan (thomond) meaning west Munster, Ur Mumhan (ormond) and deis Mumhan (desmond) or south Munster.

The red hand of Ulster has the most interesting story behind it. Briefly, in legend two men competing for the kingship had a boat race. It was agreed in advance that whoever's hand first touched the island they raced towards would claim the kingship. The one who was losing realized he could still do something about it, cut his hand off and threw it on the shore. So the bloody hand became the symbol of the king, and then Ulster. The red hand. Sorry I don't remember his name.

Green probably comes as a national colour from a famous rebel, one of the O'Neills who flew a green flag with the symbol of Ireland on it, the harp. The harp is goes back to a legendary poet, Amergin who wrote of Ireland as the harp land, the land of song. He is the narrator in part of the book of invasions, and book describing legends of the history of Ireland from the tenth or eleventh centuries. It's a great read by the way.

Leinster and Connacht colours I don't know about. Green is supposed to be the colour of Leinster but blue was always the colour of Dublin city so maybe it came from there. If it did then that's a dumb decision. By rights Leinster should play in green and Connacht in blue and black. The IRFU made a real mess of that if you ask me.

Well the South African team didn't have a "nickname" until their tour of the British isles in 1906.

The captain Paul Roos Was concerned that the South African team would get a "made up" name from the British press and decided we will be called Springboks.

Our green jerseys were actually borrowed from a club, can't remember who it was though, and it stuck.

Have to say though, there is no more beautiful sight for me than to see the green and gold together with the all black strip from NZ on a rugby field.

It is what little boys dream of in SA.

Biltong wrote:Well the South African team didn't have a "nickname" until their tour of the British isles in 1906.

The captain Paul Roos Was concerned that the South African team would get a "made up" name from the British press and decided we will be called Springboks.

Our green jerseys were actually borrowed from a club, can't remember who it was though, and it stuck.

Have to say though, there is no more beautiful sight for me than to see the green and gold together with the all black strip from NZ on a rugby field.

It is what little boys dream of in SA.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

Is the gold supposed to represent the desert? Or the precious metals underneath the desert?

No, neither of those, kia.

It's a reference to Acacia pycnantha (the Golden Wattle) - although there are also strong metaphors created with the metal gold, golden beaches, deserts, etc.

The green bit usually refers to our forests, eucalyptus leaves, rolling meadows, etc... but an argument could be made to introduce a bit of black/brown - given the amount of scorched pastures and forests we regularly see in the summer.

The "Green & Gold" description originates from the Rugby League national colours - which is predominantly green as OzT says - before they were 'forced' to change to their current look. Too slow or lazy to change the order of the wording though... typical!

However, these days more emphasis is given to "Gold" with expressions like:

"Go the Gold!", "Go For Gold" and my favourite: "That's Pure Gold!"

I'm still unconvinced with our away strip. Heck... gold & white? That combination hurts my eyes!

I'd like to see us should revert to the sky blue & maroon hoops whenever we play Romania... in Bucharest.
Guess I'll be waiting a long, long time.

The England newspaper that called the New Zealand team the "All Blacks" was the Daily Mail was that one of Murdoch's papers?

England wore purple to take away attention from Tobias Floods facial hair

Leicester tigers strip is based on the Leicester Tigers Regiment colours they take their name from, although its increasingly drifting away from it roots

Interesting stuff Intotouch.

The image of the silver fern is widely representative of New Zealand and New Zealanders. It is an image to which all New Zealanders relate and is a powerful and emotional symbol of inspiration at times when it matters. Because ferns are extremely hardy and reproduce using spores (they do not require either seeds or outside pollination to reproduce), it seems they have become symbols of independence, perseverance, autonomy, endurance, defiance in the face of oppression, and resourcefulness.

The symbol comes from the leaf of the New Zealand fern - Cyathea Dealbata (Ponga is the Maori name). The leaves are dark green on the upper side and silver underneath. The underside glows brightly in moonlight providing excellent track markers in New Zealand's native forests. It was often used by Maori as bedding for sleeping on due to the thin texture of the 'hairs'.

The symbol of the silver fern is widely used in sport. However, it is misleading to characterise it as a symbol limited to sporting roles - it pervades the imagery of all of New Zealand and has inspired new Zealanders in all aspects of their lives, from the famous New Zealand export "Fernleaf Butter" through the badges of most New Zealand Army units through Neil Dawson's Civic Square sculpture in Wellington through to our old 1 cent coins.

Frankly, I'd like to see the current NZ flag replaced with one of the silver fern motifs proposed at the end of the last century. It always annoys me how people confuse the Australian and NZ flags. Time to have something that represents all the people of NZ. The silver fern, which travelled to this land like its people, would be the perfect symbol.

Flag wise, well for the NZ flag I'd kinda like the blue to be changed to black, and instead of the Union Jack put the silver fern on it. Maybe make it digger to take up most of the left side and leave the Southern Cross as is.

Was the NZ team aware of Neath's colours before it came across them in Europe? Would like to know more about the story.

I was annoyed at the French darkening their strip so it would clash. Well done to them and to Nike for unsettling the ABs (I'm sure it did just a wee bit), but I think that it's pretty disrespectful to force a team to play in a colour that's not their national strip for no good reason. That does smack of someone that's too precious about the black jersey but I'd have been the same if it were an orange jersey.

Disney there were quite a few tours to Australia before the Originals tour. It suggests that the colour choice happened independently. But it remains unclear as to why the colour black and the silver fern emblem were chosen.

There needs to be strict controls with the home strip so jersey manufacturers can't change the colour willy-nilly. There's a lot invested in these colours. I'm more relaxed about the away strips as the need to wear them happens so rarely.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
The England newspaper that called the New Zealand team the "All Blacks" was the Daily Mail was that one of Murdoch's papers?

It's the British Press over here. There aren't 'English' newspapers. It's not a Murdoch paper. It is an awful rag though.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
The England newspaper that called the New Zealand team the "All Blacks" was the Daily Mail was that one of Murdoch's papers?

He's old, but even Murdoch hadn't been born back then. The paper was owned by Lord Northcliffe.

Still like the Jedi's monikers - the Blackness, the Criminal Element, the Meat Eaters and the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys.

I recall the chaos which was caused when the boks put the springbok to the sleeve for the World Cup because the irb had the right side... The protea had the left side and the springbok had no where to go.

So many fans complained that without the springbok on their heart they wouldn't be the same players.... Well it's all rubbish unless the players believed it... Mentality is a very important part of competition.

Let's say the boks change their strip to yellow tops like Maisie Maisie (my nickname for bafana bafana)... Eventually people would forget the green of the springboks...it only matters to those who matter. We the fans like to think we matter but outside of being in the stadium blowing our vuvuzelas we have little/no impact on results.

George Carlin wrote:Still like the Jedi's monikers - the Blackness, the Criminal Element, the Meat Eaters and the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys.

To be fair, it was Groundskeeper Willie (one of your fellow Scots) who coined the last one

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Still like the Jedi's monikers - the Blackness, the Criminal Element, the Meat Eaters and the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys.

To be fair, it was Groundskeeper Willie (one of your fellow Scots) who coined the last one

Yes, it had to be someone with a dancing, sublime creative spirit.
And ginger hair with an impenetrable accent.

https://youtu.be/2LnVIo3Bwzs