v2 G.O.AT Round 1 Group 11

First topic message reminder :

Friday’s group was neck and neck and well neck all day as three out of the four participants battled it out for your votes. Australian bowling legend Shane Warne eventually won the group come close of play with 22 votes, just two behind Sergei Bubka who also progresses with 20 votes. Narrowly missing out is motor sports Valentino Rossi who despite securing 18 votes exits the competition with baseball's Ty Cobb who bagged a disappointing 2 votes.

Today’s group sees athletics, rowing, cycling and cricket compete for your votes.

We have two participants championed today with articles both written by ChequeredJersey, so please feel free to submit your own argument below for the ones not championed.

Please vote for the competitor you believe has achieved the most in sport and should progress into the next round.

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Usain Bolt- Athletics- Championed by- ChequeredJersey

In the eternal discussions about the greatest ever in any category, most of the argument is based on subjective opinion backed up by a few selected stats rather than fact. Sport is no exception especially as finding absolute comparisons between different sports is impossible. One man though, we can give specific facts about.

Over the accepted minimum distance, he is the fastest man in the world and in recorded history, running 100m in a ridiculous 9.58 seconds. He also holds the 2nd fastest time, 2 other world records at the distance, the most times a man has broken the 10s barrier and 2 Olympic Gold Medals won with incredible ease and seeming lack of effort. In a 150m run (at which he also holds the World's best time), he ran the last 100m in 8.70 seconds, the fastest recorded 100m run in any context by a human being, at over 40km/hour. If he hits a child, there is a 40% chance they will live

In the 200m, he holds the world record of 19.19. He set the record before that, beating one that many thought could stand for ever when Johnson set it, at the 2008 Olympic games. He won the double gold in the 100m/200m twice in a row. Michael Johnson calls him the GOAT. He can probably run a fantastic 400m, long jump and was offered to play for Manchester United, the most marketable Football brand in the world. He hit Chris Gayle, one of the best allrounder cricketers playing today, for 6 in an exhibition match and clean bowled him! He shares the 4x100m WR with his Jamaican team-mates as well as Gold in that event.

He has , at 26 years of age, 6 Olympic Golds, World Records in every race he competes in, 5 WC golds and 2 silvers, and numerous other medals. Bolt is one of only eight athletes to win world championships at the youth, junior, and senior level of an athletic event.He was the youngest junior gold medallist ever.

Beyond sport itself, he is the face of and the rejuvenation of athletics and the Olympics. Known throughout the world, the most famous man from his Nation. He has inspired millions to try athletics with his youthful approach and joy.He was the main draw and the star of the London 2012 games, the most viewed sporting event in recorded history. Countless times the sporting icon of the year. Fastest man on Earth.

I genuinely dislike Bolt, I find him arrogant and inconsiderate of others in his demeanour before, during an after races. One of the most amazing things about him is that he could clearly run much faster if he tried throughout the race, he could train much harder in his own admission, he could do other events, he slows down towards the finish line if he can get away with it, he ate chicken nuggets before winning Gold on Beijing. Still untouchable. His technique is poor, especially his start. Doesn't matter. He is in a league of his own. Despite my dislike of his attitude, I can still accept that he gas inspired many and is a positive factor for his sport and sport in general. Despite disliking him, I can still say he is probably one of, if not the only, GOAT

Steve Redgrave- Rowing- Championed by- ChequeredJersey

One of the key features, in my opinion, for the GOAT in all sports is that a candidate must transcend his sport and attain significance and influence in the lives of people beyond the hard-core sporting fan-base. They should also attain dominance within their own sport. Many sportsmen (this term includes women too) are talented, some enough that they stand out above their peers. Far fewer stand out across the eras of a sport. Of these, even fewer are household names, celebrities or national icons especially in the ‘less popular sports’. Other sportsmen garner fame and celebrity status, but few of these can say they achieved unique accomplishments for sporting reasons. Those that fit into both categories and also manage to be uniquely great across a type of sport, not merely their own specialty, are incredibly rare. Sir Steven Geoffrey Redgrave, CBE, deputy lieutenant, is one of these. I will endeavour to show how in this article. Sorry that it’s a bit long, I got carried away…

If you ask a member of the British public to name an Olympian, chances are Redgrave will be near the top of the list. If you ask them to name a rower, I’d be amazed if he weren’t. He remains the only person to win 5 Gold Olympic Medals in 5 consecutive games in an endurance sport (as well as a solitary Bronze) and he adds 9 Gold, 2 Silver and 1 Bronze World Championship Medals from 1986-99 to that tally. He won his first Gold at age 22 and his last at 38, 16 years of Olympic domination in a sport that is based on physical strength and fitness, attributes that for a man peak in one’s mid-twenties. During the majority of that time, Redgrave’s crews were expected to win every race they entered and in a sport that has a number of strong competitive nations and is subject to conditions and how the crew clicks and other variables they nearly did win every race for nearly 20 years.

Non-internationally, he won different categories at Henley Royal Regatta, the premier sprint racing rowing race in the world, 21 times, the last one at age 39. These events ranged from sweep (one bladed) to scull (two oars) and from singles on his own to coxed 4s with a number of partners, as were his Olympic medals. The only constant was Redgrave. He also represented England in the 1986 Commonwealth games where he won 3 Golds in different races. I don’t know how many times he won the premier Head (long distance) racing event in the world, the Head of the River Race on the Thames, but he certainly did win it with Leander VIII and IV several times as well as his sprint victories listed here.

Most rowers specialise at rowing on one side of the boat – Bowside (starboard, or the right side of the boat from the cox’ point of view) or Strokeside (port). As well as sculling with 2 oars, Redgrave rowed both Bow and Strokeside and won Olympic Gold on both sides, testament to his technical proficiency (something very underappreciated by lay people regarding rowing) not just his strength. He was also renowned as a tactician and made the calls in his coxless crews and knew exactly when to wait and when to push another crew.
The only thing missing from his portfolio is a Boat Race victory, due to ineligibility.

He was also World indoor rowing champion (on a ergometric rowing machine) in 1990 and was British bobsleighing Champion and has run several London Marathons for charity. He did all of this with Ulcerative Colitis and Diabetes Mellitus Type 1, both chronic and debilitating diseases with severe health effects, both worse under the stress of severe physical exertion which rowing training entails more than most existent activities.

These are his considerable achievements within sport. Related to these, he has been BBC Sports Personality of the Year, won a Knighthood and a CBE from the Queen, a special pin from the Olympic Committee for winning 5 Golds in consecutive Games, a Thomas Keller Medal from the International Rowing Federation for his Outstanding International Career, has Carried the Olympic Torch in the Olympic Stadium at 2012 London, been the UK’s Olympic Flag bearer in 1992 and ’96, won Celebrity Gladiators, a BBC Sports Lifetime Achievement Award. He has set up rowing academies in India, raised millions of pounds for Charity, is an ambassador for Fairtrade and Founder and President of the Steve Redgrave Trust, and the vice-president of Diabetes UK and involved in many other charities. He is now Sports Legacy Champion and a Member of Sports Relief’s Steering Committee. The President of British Rowing, a Steward of Henley Royal Regatta and Vice President of the British Olympic Association and now a decade after his retirement is still the face of Rowing.

Since his retirement he has done so much for Sport and charity. He is a British legend who represents his country now as an ambassador. He epitomises determination, pushing oneself beyond the limit and the honour of representing one’s country. Inside his sport he has been a master and a mentor and outside of it a Champion for all the qualities we get from playing sport and all the emotion we suffer through spectating it. He is surely the inspiration for so many rowers, so many British sportspeople across every sport. He has touched many lives through the greatest of his achievements, people crying with him and for him. For all this, I propose Sir Steve Redgrave as the GOAT.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Diggers wrote:Was Redgrave often even the best rower in his own boat ? Amazing lengevity in a fairly niche sport but its Bolt all the way for me.
The guy is phenomenal, yes the showboating is annoying but the talent is amazing.

It's hard to define best rower. Technically, probably not, but then mixing in power and grit and endurance makes it a difficult question to answer. He was however the link between all of those medal winning crews

Well, him and Jurgen Grobler.

Fair point

Diggers

Of course neither Lewis nor Christie were noted for being fast starting sprinters either (both about 6'2"), but were noted for their coming through the field in the second half of the race. As the 100m is a compromise between the start and the finishing speed, there's obviously an optimum balance to be struck.

Bolt simply re-writes the rules because his speed from the blocks is good enough that he's not left too far behind and then his pick up from about 10m to 40m is sensational because his cadence matches that of the shorter guys but with the extra stride length. And then his cruising speed is just sensationally fast over the second half of the race, where you'd expect a tall sprinter to hold an advantage.

Grobler was still coaching the East Germans in 88, I would have thought (84 was a boycott). Still a huge part of the Redgrave story, of course.

Grobler or Redgraves team?

Brawn or schumaker?

well at least in redgraves case he/they are the engine

dummy_half wrote:Diggers

Of course neither Lewis nor Christie were noted for being fast starting sprinters either (both about 6'2"), but were noted for their coming through the field in the second half of the race. As the 100m is a compromise between the start and the finishing speed, there's obviously an optimum balance to be struck.

Bolt simply re-writes the rules because his speed from the blocks is good enough that he's not left too far behind and then his pick up from about 10m to 40m is sensational because his cadence matches that of the shorter guys but with the extra stride length. And then his cruising speed is just sensationally fast over the second half of the race, where you'd expect a tall sprinter to hold an advantage.

Indeed. Ask Bolt what his favourite event is though and he'll tell you the 200 as it allows his natural advantages more scope to shine....providing he doesnt get an inside lane....

100m is the marque event and 200m hurts!

well from my experience anyway!!


What I am pondering now that the 200m has become a full on sprint! How long will it take untill the 400 m is a full on sprint. One day i have a feeling it will happen!

We could end up with a sprinter taking all 3 events if thats the case and that will truely evolve the sport

Think the 400 hurts a lot more and the training is meant to be the killer, which is why a lot of sprinters....probably including Bolt....arent that interested.
I remember Kathy Cook who was probably Britains best woman sprinter, everyone always thought she'd make a great 400 runner...and she holds the British record stil (as well as the 200)l...but she said she couldnt take the pain.

400m is a truly horrible event, hurts much more than the shorter sprints and IMO more than the 800

mystiroakey wrote: How long will it take untill the 400 m is a full on sprint.

Rudisha practically turned the 800m into a sprint at the Olympics

There are 5/6 candidates per sport, to answer an above question.

Murali doesn't make the cut, for me. A wonderful bowler, exceptionally talented and did great things for Sri Lanka as a cricketing nation and in his post-Tsunami charity work, but he is just behind Warne in terms of being the greatest spinner of all time, and wasn't as rounded a cricketer either. Plus, he's in a tough group.

Redgrave takes my vote.

Redgrave for me. Fantastic athlete and has done a lot of work for sport and country in general.

PS: Wonderful to see CJ champion not one, but two athletes.

ChequeredJersey wrote:400m is a truly horrible event, hurts much more than the shorter sprints and IMO more than the 800

Just to be pedantic...has Bolt really broken 10 seconds more times than anyone else CJ ? Id have that nailed on for Asafa Powell. Bolt goes under 10 pretty much every time but he doesNt race that often really and Powells been doing it for donkeys years. Of course Powell is probably the biggest bottle job in sport so never really does it when it matters.

Question..

I heard that that long jumper in an earlier round would increase the world record by a centimetre a time- to keep gaining new world records..

Is bolt leaving some back to do this as well..


Also bolt is a bit of a play boy- He truely wants to try and play prem football. Is that a realistic ambition? well he be able to make the grade?

mystiroakey wrote:Question..

I heard that that long jumper in an earlier round would increase the world record by a centimetre a time- to keep gaining new world records..

Is bolt leaving some back to do this as well..


Also bolt is a bit of a play boy- He truely wants to try and play prem football. Is that a realistic ambition? well he be able to make the grade?

Not a long jumper, pole vaulter Mysti. Bubka could do it as you have a set height to clear, doesnt matter if you clear the bar by 10 centimeters the record is whatever height the bar is at. You cant guage it the same way in the other events, they have to go flat out to try and win, even Bolt.
And no, no chance of him making it as footballer at the top level or indeed as a cricketer which he also banged on about.

id still love to see him try and play footy..

Diggers, it's a fact I'd read, I'll look for the source but now that you mention it, it rings false, may have been I've misremembered it and it was actually sub 9.7 or something like that

some thoughts on the candidates

Bolt: I'm a bit worried it's still too early to judge his legacy. Two brilliant Olympics certainly, and an outstanding world championship in 09 as well (where he set his current records), but if say he does nothing else much for the rest of his career, and say Blake beats his records in the next two years, will we view him in quite the same light? I don't think so, in fact he'd probably then rank behind Carl Lewis. Also, I'm very much in the camp of people who think he's an arrogant pr*ck.

Redgrave: say what you like about niche sports, 5 gold medals in successive Olympics is a phenomenal achievement.

Murali: getting a bit of a rough deal here, but I agree with the general consensus, in that he doesn't always make a world XI so falls somewhat behind the other candidates IMO. Also, the doubts over his action, and in particular the fact the ICC changed the rules to accomodate his doosra are a big question mark.

Hoy: surprised by how little he's been discussed so far actually, probably due to the small cycling presence on these boards. 6 Olympic gold medals (as many as Bolt...) for starters. What's even more impressive is that he won the first of those in the kilometer time trial, which was then removed from the Olympic program. So he changed events, switching to the sprints, and promptly won three golds four years later (individual sprint, keirin, and team sprint). He added two more golds this year of course (keirin and team sprint) but was denied the chance of defending the individual sprint by the daft rule that teams were only allowed one rider per event, and GB chose Kenny above him.

Basically, Hoy did the equivalent of Bolt no longer being able to compete in the 100m and 200m sprints, so switching events and winning the 400m and long jump in the next Olympics, and then not being able to defend one of his titles because there happened to be a Jamaican better than him at the time of the trials.

So Hoy gets my vote.

I wouldnt say it is that similar to bolt switching to long jump.. because that is truely a different event. There is no reason why hoy cant compete in other events..

But i do agree that the cut down of track cycling and participation rules was/is ridiculas..

especially when we think about swimming!!

I disagree. I think kilo and individual sprint are hugely different events (kilo and team sprint are fairly similar for the third rider in the team sprint). The keirin is also a different event altogether. I don't think the switch is all that different to a sprinter switching to the long jump.

I dont quite get the argument of it being too early to judge Bolt I must say. He may well retire/switch sports/events soon simply because there isnt much left for him to achieve, which tells its own story. By the next Olympics he will be 30 which he might well be past his best in any case.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I disagree. I think kilo and individual sprint are hugely different events (kilo and team sprint are fairly similar for the third rider in the team sprint). The keirin is also a different event altogether. I don't think the switch is all that different to a sprinter switching to the long jump.

the kieren is a weird event.

I dont see the long jump analogy at all either to be honest. Maybe if Hoy switched to BMX tricks or something but all his events involve pumping pedals at grteater or lesser distances, so you can only apply a like for like comparison with Bolt doing different running distances.

like I said though there's a huge difference between the kilo time trial and the individual sprint. The kilo is just riding one kilometer as fast as you can (you don't go flat out obviously, all about keeping a speed you can maintain). The individual sprint on the other hand is a really tactical battle between two guys on track, all about choosing the right time to dive down and crank it up. The keirin is something else again. Both very different to just "pumping the pedals at greater or lesser distances"...

Bolt for me. Probably not going to be the ultimate GOAT but top of todays tree.

Was going to go Redgrave on longevity fastest in the world takes it.

In terms of arrogance, if you are the fastest man in the world of all time and have the stats to back it up, it's hardly arrogant stating it IMO. If he states it a lot, it's likely to be because he's asked something every time he goes out about being the fastest man in the world (what else would journos ask him about!)

Also (and somewhat tongue in cheek) whilst it is hardly the internationally recognised arbiter for personality, Bolt came across alright in his appearance on Top Gear!

Whether or not he is the G.O.A.T. remains to be seen, but Steve Redgrave was the best for sixteen years and not a lot can say that.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:like I said though there's a huge difference between the kilo time trial and the individual sprint. The kilo is just riding one kilometer as fast as you can (you don't go flat out obviously, all about keeping a speed you can maintain). The individual sprint on the other hand is a really tactical battle between two guys on track, all about choosing the right time to dive down and crank it up. The keirin is something else again. Both very different to just "pumping the pedals at greater or lesser distances"...

They are different events tactically but that's it, it's still just pedalling. It's not running then jumping which are two completely different things.

Diggers wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:like I said though there's a huge difference between the kilo time trial and the individual sprint. The kilo is just riding one kilometer as fast as you can (you don't go flat out obviously, all about keeping a speed you can maintain). The individual sprint on the other hand is a really tactical battle between two guys on track, all about choosing the right time to dive down and crank it up. The keirin is something else again. Both very different to just "pumping the pedals at greater or lesser distances"...

They are different events tactically but that's it, it's still just pedalling. It's not running then jumping which are two completely different things.

yes but to be fair they're quite a few in athletics history who've excelled at the 100m and the long jump. If you prefer you can replace the long jump by the 800m in the analogy

kwinigolfer wrote:Whether or not he is the G.O.A.T. remains to be seen, but Steve Redgrave was the best for sixteen years and not a lot can say that.

He was among the best for 16 years which meant he made the team, not quite the same as being judged the best at what you do, ie being the best rower.

Tough one today so flipped a coin between Redgrave and Bolt. Came down heads so it's Redgrave for me.

It's almost physically impossible to be a great 800m and 100m runner!

ChequeredJersey wrote:It's almost physically impossible to be a great 800m and 100m runner!

which is why I went with the long jump comparison, but apparently that one wasn't valid either

Look, I get these sorts of analogies are always going to be difficult to make, I was just trying to outline how impessive it was that Hoy had managed to win all those golds despite having to change completely which events he competed in.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

Diggers wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:like I said though there's a huge difference between the kilo time trial and the individual sprint. The kilo is just riding one kilometer as fast as you can (you don't go flat out obviously, all about keeping a speed you can maintain). The individual sprint on the other hand is a really tactical battle between two guys on track, all about choosing the right time to dive down and crank it up. The keirin is something else again. Both very different to just "pumping the pedals at greater or lesser distances"...

They are different events tactically but that's it, it's still just pedalling. It's not running then jumping which are two completely different things.

yes but to be fair they're quite a few in athletics history who've excelled at the 100m and the long jump. If you prefer you can replace the long jump by the 800m in the analogy

Im happy with the running analogy......though I think its easier in cycling to mix up your distances, but not denying Hoy is the greatest track cyclist of all time....well probably anyway. But track cycling is the poor cousin of road racing and only gets so much coverage in the UK as we are good at it...and why are we good at it.....because we reconised as a global sport it was of a low standard and if we threw enough resouces at it we could dominate which is what has happened....

Very decent and competitive group. For long continuing proven success I've gone for Redgrave. The other threee can all consider themselves unlucky.

I voted for Redgrave out of my two, by the way, mostly because I feel though Bolt is bigger outside his sport at the moment, Redgrave IS his sport and will be bigger outside for posterity's sake. Plus I prefer his character

As a cyclist Mad, I can safely say that there is not a lot of difference between the four sprint events other than tactics, the trick is knowing when to put the power down. For someone like Hoy the crossover is quite easy, he hits the front early and goes big from a long way out, his explosive sprint speed doesn't quite compare to the likes of Levi or Bauge but he can do it for a lot longer.

Looking at the contents of group 10 and then group 11...clearly there hasn't been any seeding, any 3 of group 11 would easily have won group 10 but...thats just my opinion. Redgrave had the longevity spread over 5 olympics although none of his golds were individual, Hoy had a bigger medal haul over a lesser period. Both enjoyed considerable success outside Olympics. Bolt, just awesome so far with possibly more to come....how can you separate these guys other than eenie meeni miny mo!!

Think it's a nationalities thing jas. if this board's members were'nt primarily British, this wouldn't be a difficult decision.

Likewise re group 10, i'd be very surprised if Bubka and Rossi in particular aren't better known internationally, than hoy or Redgrave.

I can name hundreds of international footballers, rugby players, boxers, golfers, tennis players, athletes etc. I can name 2 non-British sprint cyclists (on the grounds they are the main rivals of the top Brits) and precisely zero non-British rowers. I suspect I'm not alone among sports fans.

Well Ive read everything and wasnt convinced that either of the contenders impressed me enough to get my vote.

Got to admit that Chequered Jersey did a good job on both his subjects, I couldnt vote for Bolt as he hasnt stood the "test of time" to be considered "the best of all time". I hadnt heard of the rower, and since neither of the other two could get a write up from any of their sports experts, then I am not convinced.

Having called witness Laurie, I rest my case m'lud.

5 golds in 5 straight oylimpics .. I am suprised you havent heard of him.. Especially when NZ actually competes ok at rowing

Don't quite agree with the notion that Warne was better against top quality opposition than Murali and bowled better on wickets that didn't assist spin.
I don't know the stats but would imagine has a better record in England than Warne and I aslo remember the Indians treating Warne like a net bowler on a few occasions.

Stella

Murali's record in England is based on far fewer matches (6) and skewed by the Test at the Oval played on an absolute bunsen when he took 16 wickets for 220 in the match (although having an 8 for 70 at Trent Bridge as well suggests he was a threat in English conditions). Just means the direct comparison with Warne is unfair (I still hold that on a normal English wicket, other than Headingley, Warne was able to extract more turn and bounce than Murali).

mystiroakey wrote:5 golds in 5 straight oylimpics .. I am suprised you havent heard of him.. Especially when NZ actually competes ok at rowing

Honstly Mystir, I havent and your right I'm sure he must of rowed against kiwi crews. as I said above I cant find one to vote for but your on the way to persuading me. 5 out of 5 is pretty damn good.

So, maybe unfair to say Warne was better thn Murali in unhelpful conditions, which has become a cliché over the years. Both were equally great in helpful and not so much conditions, IMO.

Also I note that none of the contenders come from the Southern hemisphere.

To be fair Murali had a pretty ordinary record against India (and Australia for that matter)...

Yeah, the Aussies played him really well, to be fair.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:5 golds in 5 straight oylimpics .. I am suprised you havent heard of him.. Especially when NZ actually competes ok at rowing

Honstly Mystir, I havent and your right I'm sure he must of rowed against kiwi crews. as I said above I cant find one to vote for but your on the way to persuading me. 5 out of 5 is pretty damn good.

To be fair has nayone heard of Elisabeta Lipă who has won 8 rowing medals and 5 golds ? Nope, but I bet she is a big name in Romania.
Naim Suleymanoglu, maybe the greatest ever weightlifter, would anyone in the UK know him outside of weightlifting...nope...becasue its a sport we are rubbish at. (I didnt know him, just looked him up as an example.)
Yet we arrogant Brits reckon the world should know who Steve Redgrave is.......do me a favour. Its not like he's an individual even for people to remember him better.

Golds at olympics?