Brian Moore - comments on Welsh regions

Brian's comments on the Welsh regions:

".. it is the failure of the Welsh regions that is most egregious. The problems with player contracts have not helped the overall picture but there is more to it than simple cash.

The lack of competitiveness of the Welsh sides is shown by the fact that between them, Ospreys, Scarlets and Cardiff managed just three wins out of 18 games. This is despite between them having the majority of the Wales Grand Slam squad. The Welsh Rugby Union has to dig deep in an investigation that gets to the bottom of this malaise as it threatens to undermine the success of the national team. "

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9814550/Heineken-Cup-in-real-need-of-knockout-blow.html

How can anyone disagree ?

Those who blindly think that the national performance can somehow exist independent of the quality of the regions are about to see another example of the truth when we fail in the 6Ns. Professional rugby quality in Wales is awful, simply awful. Yet it seems that so many have their heads firmly stuck in the sand....or a dark part of their anatomy if you prefer.

The fact (for me) is that time for a gallic/pictish drains-up-cum-truth-and-reconcilliation investigation is overdue. The truth appears to be that the regions (in both Wales & Scotland) have fundamentally failed. Neither have sold their products particularly well but Wales has sold it spectacularly badly considering that there is a supply of talent capable of generating three GSs in the past seven years. Club rugby is in the DNA - not X-Factor spectacular regions. Six 3,000 crowds per bog-standard weekend (6x1000 in Scotland) would no worse than currently.

Whilst in England the PRL/RFU are doing everything possible to hamstring their top sides from progressing by levelling the clubs by Robin Hood socialism (and I am a Socialist), talk is of expanding the Jeff rather than cutting it to eight or ten (at most) and snipping the umbilical cord of wage caps, national leeching of talent rewards, smack-head playoffs and the like. Let professional clubs live and die by their own successes like High Street chains. Some mergers and relocation may be necessary, but this is rugby - not banking. So it's nothing fundamentally serious.

Ospreydragon wrote:Brian's comments on the Welsh regions:

".. it is the failure of the Welsh regions that is most egregious. The problems with player contracts have not helped the overall picture but there is more to it than simple cash.

The lack of competitiveness of the Welsh sides is shown by the fact that between them, Ospreys, Scarlets and Cardiff managed just three wins out of 18 games. This is despite between them having the majority of the Wales Grand Slam squad. The Welsh Rugby Union has to dig deep in an investigation that gets to the bottom of this malaise as it threatens to undermine the success of the national team. "

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9814550/Heineken-Cup-in-real-need-of-knockout-blow.html

I hope the WRU and Regions can work together to make the Regions more competitive in the HC*. The same goes for the Scots and Italians.

The lack of success in the HC from those three countries can only strengthen the English and French position for a revamp of the qualification process.

I want all six nations to be involved in the HC, but qualification should be more on merit to make it an elite competition.

* I did post on another article that lack of HC success has not prevented 3 Welsh grand slams in 8 years. Conversely, Irish domination of the HC has only seen one grand slam over a similar timescale.

That anomaly is largely down to the coaching and management at 'club' and international level.

My thoughts are that basically Moore and many welsh fans are being overly critical.

Until the last couple of seasons, all the regions in Wales relied heavily on foreign players to boost our competitiveness in the Celtic league an HEC. This was incredibly expensive, financially crippling, and not successfull in winning the HEC. The fans started to become dispondent. The crowds didnt fall but they didnt build either.

Three years ago the Scarlets, then Ospreys and Dragons and slowly this season the Blues have based their core around academy players with a few cheap NWQs to fill spaces where there is little depth or competition.

This hasn't pulled more fans, hasn't sent them away either.

Plus side is we produce more welsh players, down side the regional sides are weaker.

If the WRU invests more money that may keep more welsh players and attract better NWQs but fans won't swell unless they sniff success. But the WRU claims they can't afford to. I believe they are right, they probably can't afford to, therefor their money would be a short term solution with little gains.

The model is to produce from within, increase the output of the academies quantity of quality. A little more money and a maybe some more help in other areas will help improve regional rugby.

It needs to be done, but how is not a simple answer.

offload wrote:How can anyone disagree ?

Those who blindly think that the national performance can somehow exist independent of the quality of the regions are about to see another example of the truth when we fail in the 6Ns. Professional rugby quality in Wales is awful, simply awful. Yet it seems that so many have their heads firmly stuck in the sand....or a dark part of their anatomy if you prefer.

Pretty much hits the nail on the head. And Moore-o is spot on.

With each passing season the evidence becomes more overwhelming - that for whatever reason we are just not ready, willing or able to run a professional game in Wales.

The benefactor model has been a disaster and a decade into regional/superclub rugby the teams and the union continue to squabble. The best idea they can come up with is a monthly buffet lunch, so they can argue over BLT sandwiches and fizzy water.

I understand that some people think it will get better when the youngsters come through/the WRU invest some more money/Henson comes back, but chances are that day will never come.

A semi pro future looks increasingly likely. Just a matter of time and whether the union embrace this, or fight it.

As Eddie Butler, the former national captain, warned recently: “You don’t have to be a structural engineer to know that if you load the top and weaken the bottom, even the mightiest of towers can fall with a crash."

As many are saying the 'bottom of the tower' is in disarray & needs to be remodelled & thought through. Rugby is all about grass roots & clubs. This process may take time but needs to be got right for the future.

Problem being the WRU don't give a flying f*** about grass roots all they are bothered in is the coporate and hospitality that fills the boxes in the MS

bedfordwelsh wrote:Problem being the WRU don't give a flying f*** about grass roots all they are bothered in is the coporate and hospitality that fills the boxes in the MS

...and keeping the bank happy so that Roger can lunch with the 'good guys at Barclays' etc.

Maybe the low cost option (as the bulk of the money is diverted to paying off the union credit cards) would be to acquire/work with a couple of Aviva teams, or even negotiate entry for a 'region' into the English league (maybe this is the future for RGC 1404?). The Rabo isn't going to develop test players.

The performances of the National team have not necessarily reflected HEC results - but then the Ospreys have won the Rabo a few times.

It seems clear to me that the regional set-up has allowed the coaches to prepare the resources they have available to the optimum - especially during a season. Do they though provide enough strength in depth to cover for injuries, dips in form etc? Looking at the Welsh performances since the 2003 RWC it seems that when they are good they are very good, but when they are off their game..... The final thing to point out is the frequency with which Wales lose matches by the narrowest of margins against tri nations opponents. this may suggest that they have talent but do not play enough high intensity, high pressure rugby week in, week out to make the decision making required when the match is tight second nature.


(ps Wales inconsitency in 6Ns since 2003 gives way more highs than englands consistent averageness).

Wales since 2003:

2003/4 - 4th
2004/5 - GS
2005/6 - 5th
2006/7 - 5th
2007 WC - knocked out in Pool by Fiji
2007/8 - GS
2008/9 - 4th
2009/10 - 4th
2010/11 - 4th
2011 WC - 4th
2011/12 - GS

Casartelli wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Problem being the WRU don't give a flying f*** about grass roots all they are bothered in is the coporate and hospitality that fills the boxes in the MS

...and keeping the bank happy so that Roger can lunch with the 'good guys at Barclays' etc.

Maybe the low cost option (as the bulk of the money is diverted to paying off the union credit cards) would be to acquire/work with a couple of Aviva teams, or even negotiate entry for a 'region' into the English league (maybe this is the future for RGC 1404?). The Rabo isn't going to develop test players.

I know next to nothing about Welsh Rugby structure (i know there are 4, that's about it!), which is why i don't comment on any of the Welsh threads, but would this not go down like a lead balloon amongst the Welsh fans? With a country that has such a strong tradition of Rugby, wouldn't a lot of fans see this as 'selling out to the enemy' (yes, strong expression - we're all Rugby fans, but gets the idea across).

It does seem to have worked with wendyball though, which is a worry in itself, as a few Welsh teams seem to be thriving, but with such differentiation between the sport and fans, would this be accepted by Welsh rugby fans?

Alastair, there's a great tradition of cross-border fixtures at club level. There's be much more interest in Welsh clubs / regions playing English opposition than Irish, Scottish or Italian opposition.

Sometimes when I read these Welsh regions threads in the club section I Wonder if Welsh rugby isnt using the the Heineken Cup to its advantage,
By that, I mean, I get the felling that The Heineken Cup isolates Welsh Club/grassroots rugby from the International team.

Would it not help if Wales just kicked all the South africans, Kiwis and Aussies out of their teams and used the regions as feeders to the HC and in turn the HC acts as a feeder to the Welsh team. And dont limit this to players, but why not coaching personell as well?

No doubt I dont have a clue what I'm talking about...

Welsh rugby fans are a forward thinking lot nowadays. We embrace change and would love to see a team playing in the English league. Maybe Ireland and Scotland would follow suit and it would be the start of a British/Irish championship.

Trailblazers, that's what we'd be.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Alastair, there's a great tradition of cross-border fixtures at club level. There's be much more interest in Welsh clubs / regions playing English opposition than Irish, Scottish or Italian opposition.

I know there's a lot cross-boarders pre-season warm up matches. A friend of mine found himself in Cardiff and stumbled upon a Worcester/Blues pre-season game which he thoroughly enjoyed himself at, and personally, i watched a great warm up game against Connacht at the Stoop.

Would be a definite shake up of the status quo.

Casartelli wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Problem being the WRU don't give a flying f*** about grass roots all they are bothered in is the coporate and hospitality that fills the boxes in the MS

...and keeping the bank happy so that Roger can lunch with the 'good guys at Barclays' etc.

Maybe the low cost option (as the bulk of the money is diverted to paying off the union credit cards) would be to acquire/work with a couple of Aviva teams, or even negotiate entry for a 'region' into the English league (maybe this is the future for RGC 1404?). The Rabo isn't going to develop test players.

As I'm all in favour of reducing the Jeff to eight teams, I'd be in favour of with the RFU to negotiating a British League component competition as a half way house. This would provide competition between English, Welsh and Scottish clubs. This would provide a mainland competition. For the English promotion to the Jeff would be on offer whilst the Scots and Welsh, a proving ground for talent of their regions.

But a Welsh region in the Jeff would be a non-starter especially given the current state of European negotiations. The quid pro quo of any such proposal would surely mean a schism in the Rabo and turn the Welsh into Quisling fifth columnists in Celtic eyes.