"WRU needs to outline regions' role" - Dragons boss Martyn Hazell

'Newport Gwent Dragons chairman Martyn Hazell has called for the Welsh Rugby Union to outline the regions' role.

"The European game is all about money," said Hazell.

"The Welsh regions haven't got any money, we have a wage cap of £3.5m and some of these other people don't have a wage cap at all.

"We are playing £2.5m sides against £10m sides, it just doesn't work out.

"The Welsh Rugby Union has to come out of the closet and say how they see regional rugby and Welsh international rugby.

"What is their view for the future? They have not said exactly what they think it is. They have to come out of the closet and do it."'


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21126495



Martyn Hazell is spot on with this. Nothing is worse than uncertainty and the WRU's reluctance to make things clear is poor to say the least. All we've had from them is Roger Lewis's interview, and even then he stressed that it was just his 'personal opinion'.

The longer the WRU goes without telling us what their plan is for regional rugby, the more it appears that they don't have a plan at all.

To be fair the WRU cant really finalise any plan untill they know the future of the HC and ECC, and wa funds will come from that.

How the WRU funds the regions is only part of it. Three regions, five regions, development regions: there are plenty of rumours flying around and the WRU is doing nothing to clarify matters. That's hardly going to encourage private investment.

It is also misleading to compare salary caps from one area to a next. In some places it just covers the HC/amlin Squads (36 people) in others it has to cover every player who may represent a team. Thus in the Sale v Scarlets LV match at the weekend, every player on the Sale side has to fit in the cap, whereas the bulk of the (much weakened) Scarlets side are usually premiership players and do not come under the new WRU cap.

Really though the central funding is less important to having some form of stability. To grow the regions need fans coming through the gates week in week out. to get this they need to know they stand a damned good chance of seeing their best players in a competetive fixture. If this happens you get fans, this pull sin investors and TV/Marketing revenue. If however you have the situation Blues were in last year where the biggest names (Roberts and Gethin) barely appeared in the Rabo and performances were poor, people get diinterested very quickly.

"WRU need to outline the regions role."

Why? It's only been a decade, what's the rush guys?

The Millennium wasn't built in a day - let's get some more seed and sunshine on this as part of the 5 year rolling plan initiative and listen to the mood music at the monthly lunches before we start making any hasty decisions about stuff.

Hes spot on. Who would invest in a region when there's so much uncertainty around the Welsh game at the moment.
It's not a level playing field when teams are spending x4 on wages on what we can offer. The WRU don't care. We play an extra game thus draining our players further so they play less for the regions. The ticket prices are madness, I'm watching Italy Vs Wales this year for £15!

If the regions don't revive more money to build successful sides the crowds will never grow. As long as the pink hat brigade still appear for the internationals nothing will change.

LondonTiger wrote:Really though the central funding is less important to having some form of stability. To grow the regions need fans coming through the gates week in week out. to get this they need to know they stand a damned good chance of seeing their best players in a competetive fixture. If this happens you get fans, this pull sin investors and TV/Marketing revenue. If however you have the situation Blues were in last year where the biggest names (Roberts and Gethin) barely appeared in the Rabo and performances were poor, people get diinterested very quickly.

I think it is starting to become a real catch 22 situtation now. There are people who want to follow the regions, however they have limited money in their back pocket, and can either spend their £200 on seeing Wales play 3 or 4 games or to see their region play 16 games. If they go to see Wales play they can be sure to see the best players available playing against top class oposition. If they get a season ticket for a region they can see 5 or 6 games a season where their region are able to field their strongest side (due to call ups, injuries, extra internationals) and they will see the opposition sides doing similar (Irish provinces resting up at the start of the season, welsh regions missing players, Scottish/Italian sides being poor). SO in order for the regions to be able to bring in a higher average through the gates they really need the money to begin with to bring in/keep hold of good quality players, and be competitive.

Looking at how the rumoured comings and goings of the regions are shaping up, I would be willing to say that next season the regions should on paper have their strongest match day squads ever, but this seems to be at the cost of the fringe players. So I think we are going to look acceptable in the HEC and dire in all over competitions. Which may pull in half assed fans for the HEC, but not really help build the fan base for the Rabo/LV= games.

youngguns6 wrote:Hes spot on. Who would invest in a region when there's so much uncertainty around the Welsh game at the moment.
It's not a level playing field when teams are spending x4 on wages on what we can offer. The WRU don't care. We play an extra game thus draining our players further so they play less for the regions. The ticket prices are madness, I'm watching Italy Vs Wales this year for £15!

If the regions don't revive more money to build successful sides the crowds will never grow. As long as the pink hat brigade still appear for the internationals nothing will change.

An openning lose in the 6Ns and that could well see the end of these plastic fans.

Martyn is right - and now the WRU apologists will step in.

I have repeatedly said that the WRU is abstaining from its responsibilities as the governing body in Wales. One of the principle responsibilities they have is to outline the strategy, future direction and vision for the game (at every level) and then to present plans all the stakeholders can discuss, agree and get on with. You don't have to be a business guru to know that without a strategy, people don't invest.

Welsh rugby looks rudderless because it is. Unfortunately the WRU is still culturally amateur - it needs an overhaul.

I think its fair the say the WRU are limited on thier planning untill they know what format the H-cup will take after next year, and how much the WRu will recieve from it, or if there will be a H-cup?

It makes planing budgets very dificult, be since the H-cup money goes to the regions, its not really anything that would effect the WRU, they should be able to say over the next 5 years we will fund the regions X, and its the regions then that would sweat it out how much H-cup money (if any) comes in on top of this.

Sooner H-cup is resolved the better.

This whole problem has been exacerbated by the WRU coming out with statements such as 'we may fund the regions differently: perhaps 2 funded more and 2 less, or 3 and 1", or words to that effect. That's the real irresponsibility in all of this. If they do not know their plans then they should just shut up and be honest and say that they'll decide when the H-cup format is decided. To mention it before, even in passing, opens up this uncertainty which is doing nothing to further the regional game in Wales. Sponsors and investors will not want to risk investing in a development region, players will not want to sign for a region that may potentially be downgraded, and most importantly current players will start looking elsewhere for a more secure future (as is already happening).

Irresponsible WRU. Think before you open your ridiculously large mouths.

I think Griff, you may be right in the WRU are waiting to see what the H-cup changes to before they decide the funding, they (RRW and WRU) have mentioned the 3 + 1, but I think that if only two are likley to make it into the h-cup in future they may go 2 + 2.

Any downgrading of a region will not just be bad for Wales (or that regions fans anyway) but will effect the league in itself, and therefore the IRFU, FIR and SRU.

Zebre, Connacht and Dragons are the bottom sides, Connacht recieve more funding now and are building toward being a mid to playoff level team (6th, 7th or 8th) in future, Zebre will grow stronger each year, Edinburgh won't stay down near the bottom each year, meaning Dragons job of escaping the bottom of the table is going to be harder each year, never mind if their funding was cut.

If it was cut who fans turn up to see a beat lose nearly every game, to be rooted to the bottom of the table each year, and know the same is going to happen again next year and the year after, would sponors wish to be linked to the bottom struggling team? Being designated a development region is a slow death sentance, being slowly strangled of all assets.

Even if down properaly and all the best young players not getting gametime were given to Dragons for a season would they be any better than the current Dragons team, and with so many players coming and going each year, you couldn't form a team bound, team work etc etc, this takes time (look at Zebre, they have some very good players but lack the teamwork so far), youd be building a new team from stracth each year, from the less talented prospects, they are not going to be competative, fans are not going to like seeing when they get a good player him going back to his region after one year.

Connacht were a development Province and are now a province in development, they have increased funding and a plan put in place by the IRFU to bring them up a level or two, WRU's plan would be to demote a region a level or two and this is a backward step.

PS not saying the WRU have picked Dragons as a development region, but with a 50% ownership it seams to be the most likely.

This developement region stuff is just stupid. It could only have worked right at the start of regionalism, or if they were bringing in a new region. As that way there is stull some sort of pull to bring fans there. But to say to someone that they are failing so being downgraded is a joke, because realistically they could easily class each region as failing.

The Dragons are bottom of the bunch in the Rabo.
The Blues have not won any silverware for a handful of seasons.
The Scarlets didn't register a single HEC win.
The Ospreys have failed to get out of their group in the HEC.

Thats the issue...

Are the regions failing? Or are they just returning to the kind of level the old clubs were at?

Underfunded, undersupported and producing talent at a similar level.

The regions initially were packed full of talent, but this was never going to be sustainable as those players were all given exposure against and with top players and in very competitive games, however todays youngsters don't get the same exposure and only a very select few (generally the ones the WRU want to back) get regional time!!!

If we returned to our club game (for the majority of the season) we would allow for far more youngsters to get opportunities to prove they have what it takes, yes the prem would be a lower level to top euro teams but they are a step above our regions now anyway!

My point is there is a place for regional rugby, but it is not a model that people will buy into regular enough, therefore the kind of model that allows for a fully professional welsh prem AND regional participation in the HC is surely the only way we are going to find ourselves competitive in europe AND have the kind of support we can financially use.

WRU can centrally contract welsh internationals (these guys playing HC games and using prem games as warm up/return from injuries like they do now in the Rabo)

WRU can fund each region equally (with RGC being a prem team) of which the regions use for a squad (not inc internationals) and filter the funding to the clubs.

Clubs will benefit from low wage bills (Full ints and regional status already payed for) higher gates (if not only for the possibility of away support) competitive games week in week out, and success in their own rights.

The competition for regional places should push the quality of regional player up, and drag the depth of quality up also!!!

Regions could open and close the season with double headers at the MS, not to mention an xmas double header, these will encourage bumper cash days and add to the regional funding filtered to the clubs.

The way I see it if the regions are bound to 3.5 mill right now, then 3 prem clubs of a 1 mill budget will probably see little difference in quality, meaning there will be far more contracts and players on offer and average players wont be able to command extremely large wages.

Regional selection adds an element of excitement, club rugby ensures that most towns in the country are represented, keeping the game popular, and most importantly the WRU will fund an academy system with every prem club, meaning more players, of a higher quality, with more exposure to top rugby.

Sorted... next?

The best thing that happened to Connacht was being made a full side

Before that players could only get one year contracts because no one knew if they would be there the next year. As a result all of the best players left at the end of each year. Would Henshaw and co still be there at the start of next season if their contract was up.

Once Connacht started to be treated like a full team and that the IRFU wanted them to grow they have gone from strenght to strenght. They have made an Amlin semi losing to Toulon. They have done ok in the HC (esp when you compare them to other teams of their standard)
They have only given up 1 TBP in their two years which is very good compared to others.

Now some might say it was lucky that connacht have had HC to increase attendance etc, but they are on the up. Being told by the boss that we want you to do more here's the money is a good shot in the arm

Bluesman, you may have an few issues with that mode ....getting the rest of Europe to sign up to a deal on HC entry that enables it for example. Im not even sure the other Celtfolk will keep the united front if you say youre tearing down the Pro12 and expecting to keep a free pass for the regions to Europe.
That and working out how youll pay the players enough to retain them in Wales and available for regional selection. And accepting that due to the structure of the NH season you wont be able to beef up those regional teams with influential forineisgners on short term deals to make them truely competitive with the big French Irish and Engwish clubs.

Not to mention the slight coughs all this may arouse from existing sponsorship and TV deals.

Id agree that if it wasnt for reality getting in the way it would be a jolly good model and exactly the kind of thing the Irish ditched over a decade ago

Joking aside though if the whole of European rugby is going to get screwed up and thrown in the bin again that is a serious option for the WRU, and one that has a lot of merits ...including making people feel re-franchised and making the regions regions again rather than superclubs hamstrung by demands of the Union.

PSW

Europe doesn't have to sign up to the deal, they just need to agree on how many slots the WRU receives in the HC and Amlin, then allow us to present our regions as is.

You make a good point regarding the Rabo, but now is the time for honesty... The league is not working, the travel is too difficult for away fans, the travel for the less funded clubs is chaining their arms behind thei back, it is a non competitive league in which Int players are warmed up pre HC and international season. The league isn't commanding huge TV deals, doesn't offer a huge prize and doesn't determine any HC places, let alone have any soul due to 4 nations competing in it. The clock is ticking on it's demise, and I'd rather each nation looks at it's own way to survive than approach the PRL and strike a deal that screws the rest of us!!

Re retaining players in Wales, why would that be difficult, WRU centrally contracts 30, average 3 per club, the regions would contract another 30, average 10 per club, and the club would fund the rest (bottom end youngsters/clubman/a few NWQ signings)

Bluesman,

the problem is that the Rabo would still go on without the welsh. There would still be 8 teams in it and might even have room for a cup.

It would be great for the welsh to go back to the 10club league but in reality the welsh regions would finish last in their HC groups and fight it out with the S10 and non 6N teams in the Amlin for bottom spot.

The welsh clubs would lose all their top players as they would not want to spend their time playing only 6HC games, maybe 6 inter-region games a year.

Most of the money the IRFU/SFU and Itailians get wouldn't realy change.

Wales have to keep professional clubs in wales to keep the players. If Os had of got to the Amlin quarters and went on a run i don't think people would be so down. Last year thier were 2 of the 16 quarterfinalist from Wales.

the WRU has to give the regions a vote of support. Even if it is we are going to give the regions x more money for three years and if they can do y we will continue as is.

The IRFU is spending more as a result of connacht but I think most people would agree it has been well spent.
My one fear for Wales is that as North Wales is doing well the WRU might try and redo the southern regions and set themselves back a decade.

Have the WRU made the four regions into underage districts as that makes logical sense. The only reason the Irish regions work is not that it is history it is because all sport is done on these regions. surely there are regions in wales for sports.

Brendan, good points which I agree wholeheartedly with. I think we'd be mad to go back to a 10 team league. Where on earth would we get the players from? It would have to be the Welsh premiership, so the teams would obviously be weaker than we have now. The only way we could possibly do it is if we did somehow manage to get a 10 team league funded, played in by the best players in Wales, but with 4 regional representative teams sitting above it that play in the Euro competitions. But then, either the players would never be with their club sides so that league would suffer, or they'd not be playing together very much for the representative sides so they'd perform poorly in Europe! Better to stick to what we've got now IMO!

On your point about sports regions, no we haven't really got them. Not as far as I can recall. It's all club and district really in rugby, football, etc. Only rugby has attempted to go regional.

'GWENT rugby clubs are to send a letter to Welsh Rugby Union chief executive Roger Lewis expressing their concern about the way the sport is being run in Wales.

The move has been prompted by talk of downgrading Newport Gwent Dragons to development status but the Argus understands from sources that the state of regional rugby is just the tip of the iceberg.

There is a growing feeling of discontent and clubs want to be more involved in decision making when it comes to rugby in Wales.

They feel that they are being marginalised and that everything is geared towards the international game and developing players rather than helping clubs to thrive.

District A contains 47 clubs in the east of Wales – the biggest in the country – and it was agreed at a meeting last week to express their concerns to the chief executive.

They want to stress their opposition to any moves to cut the amount of funding that the Union gives to the Dragons.

And a vote of no confidence and an emergency general meeting of the WRU remains a possibility given that it could be forced by 29 of its member clubs.'

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/rugby/latest/10190315.Gwent_clubs_rise_up_to_express_discontent_over_state_of_Welsh_rugby/

Giff i was reffering to playing areas so in rugby in wales it would appear that Distirct A would be the district that most kids play rugby in and the top team (ie the team at the top of the pile that they should all be aiming to play for) is the Dragons. In munster Cork and Limerick dislike each other strongly in the club game. Even clubs in Cork or in Limerick dislike other clubs from their city. But every young player has a goal to play with munster. Why can't the WRU do teams on a District basis to.

Ireland has problems and inter club rivilary that make the munster leinster fighting look like two friends talking. But playing for the next team up is a reflection of you being in the best 30 or so players for that age group.

I think Brendan Distirct A was set up by the regions, clubs are assigned to regions, and the player progression is to the regional team, it's just that some clubs haven't brought into it.

If clubs have good young players some are more inclinded to try an hold on to them, so their team does well (maybe more pressure on Welsh prem clubs to perform than produce players for region, and coachs job depends on results) therefore they are less likey to make the region aware of them.
This is just an impression I get of some clubs, that have never fully brought into the region, and that there is a higher level above them.

I don't think it helps that say Blues are owned wholly by Cardiff RFC, so clubs like Ponty will not be to happy to see players move to thier old rivals. Also I think that Blues players when in need of gametime, mostly play for Cardiff RFC, so other clubs in the region don't recieve the same benifit from the region.

For me its one of the flaws in the regional system, imagine if Munster were owned and run by Shannon RFC, I bet Munster would become less popular in Cork, and Cork players would be a bit more inclinded to stay at their clubs.

For me the ownership model need to be changed from having one or two big clubs owning and running a region, for all the clubs in said region. To all clubs in the region owning and running the region.

Kingshu Wales has to have had regions before regionalization. Scotland had four. I am sure that England has loads of regions.

I just can't beleive that an under 14 team from Wrexham would play a team from newport if they were the same standard. Surely this would only happen if they each had won their repesctive leagues in their region.

I know wales is small but I know their soccer is broken up into small areas once you get below the national divisions, just like in Ireland.

I alway thought police regions may be good to follow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Maps_of_police_forces_of_Wales

theres also areas for districts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Districts_of_Wales

Historic counties of Wales

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_counties_of_Wales

Preserved counties of Wales
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preserved_counties_of_Wales

administrative counties


Theres just so many for different thing that I dont think any one feels like they are tied to them

it would be the same as trying to tie people together using the districts for councils and the same down south.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Councils_in_Northern_Ireland

I just don't feel as attacted to Moyle as I do the Glens, Antrim, Ulster.

The nearest we've got to regions that exists in everyday life (outside of sport) are counties, but there are too many of them (8 or so).

Not sure about districts Bendan. I've heard of them, but I can't tell you where or what they are or represent. In the Welsh rugby leagues it tends be national to a certain extent down to the 3rd division (i.e. the Welsh Prem and Championship leagues are national), then it goes a bit area related - Division 1 East, 1 West, 1 North; 2 East, West, North, etc.). They could base it on that, but those 'areas' don't exist anywhere in the real world, so would similarly struggle for identity. Certainly not like the provinces of Ireland. The area model used in the Welsh leagues may have been an idea from the start, but without much funding the 'areas' or 'region's would still have been run from one of the current pro venues as no-one could afford to build these teams a new stadium! East may have been run from Cardiff or Newport, West from Swansea or Llanelli, which are all essentially South and the population hot spots for those areas. North would maybe be played out of Wrexham?

I also always though, aprt from changing the running of the regions from the big club/clubs, to all the clubs, to also change the league setup.

Keep the Welsh Prem as the only all Wales league, but below that have 4 regional divisions, Dragons league divisions 1-3, Scarlets league 1-3 ospreys league 1-3 etc etc.winner of each league is crowned thier league champion, and all 4 division 1-3 champions then go into semi finals, for division 1/2/3 cup.

This would create more derbies, mean less travel for clubs and create a more regional feel, also I think the play offs for the cup between the 4 league winners would attract good crowds

Kingshu, all that makes far too much sense to ever get off the ground.

See it is things like that that will do more for the regions then what the Pro12 clubs do.

In GAA they have a similar thing. An under age to win a division in you area and then you go onto the country playoffs. At senior level and and also at under age the best 30 or so players from whatever club in the region (could be playing in div 1 or div 4) represent the region agaisnt the other regions in the county. As a result it is also our area.

And the problem is it is to much sense. It seems at the monment like the welsh regions are build in tiny air with nothing really under them.

Can the WRU issue a 3 year lience to each region and in three years if their is no improvement issue it to a WRU run union eg North wales

The vote of no confidence issue is the big thing here, and may prove the Dragons saviour!!!

Scarletts beware.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:'GWENT rugby clubs are to send a letter to Welsh Rugby Union chief executive Roger Lewis expressing their concern about the way the sport is being run in Wales.

The move has been prompted by talk of downgrading Newport Gwent Dragons to development status but the Argus understands from sources that the state of regional rugby is just the tip of the iceberg.

There is a growing feeling of discontent and clubs want to be more involved in decision making when it comes to rugby in Wales.

They feel that they are being marginalised and that everything is geared towards the international game and developing players rather than helping clubs to thrive.

District A contains 47 clubs in the east of Wales – the biggest in the country – and it was agreed at a meeting last week to express their concerns to the chief executive.

They want to stress their opposition to any moves to cut the amount of funding that the Union gives to the Dragons.

And a vote of no confidence and an emergency general meeting of the WRU remains a possibility given that it could be forced by 29 of its member clubs.'

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/rugby/latest/10190315.Gwent_clubs_rise_up_to_express_discontent_over_state_of_Welsh_rugby/

Can't possibly be true. We aren't a region all we care about is Newport

Good point Stone. For all of those people claiming that the Dragons do nothing in the region, do not act 'regionally' and are only really Newport RFC, then how on earth did we manage to garner the support of the clubs in the region???

'Not a proper region' or 'not embracing the region' is such a lazy put down to roll out, and something that people hear other people saying, so lots of people say it without first evaluating the facts.

I'm not saying everything is rosy, but at least this shows some solidarity within the region which would not be present if the Dragons were a closed shop that didn't engage with the rest of the region.

Kingshu - looking at all of those maps you put up there, I would say that the regions are near enough the regions on the maps (that said I was really only paying attention to the Scarlets/Ospreys boundary).

Griff wrote:Good point Stone. For all of those people claiming that the Dragons do nothing in the region, do not act 'regionally' and are only really Newport RFC, then how on earth did we manage to garner the support of the clubs in the region???

'Not a proper region' or 'not embracing the region' is such a lazy put down to roll out, and something that people hear other people saying, so lots of people say it without first evaluating the facts.

I'm not saying everything is rosy, but at least this shows some solidarity within the region which would not be present if the Dragons were a closed shop that didn't engage with the rest of the region.

Don't worry the might Leinster were only a south Dublin city team till they started winning. Lots of people pretent they don't care but it is more to do with results then how they accually feel. Os are only the one true region cause they have been the easiest to follow.

Honestly we get this is it a region or superclub a lot, he's my outsider view. Ultimately it comes down to how the other clubs in the region, work with or against the region that decides if its a region or superclub (IMO).

Dragons - 50% owned by Newport RFC 50% WRU, added Newport to name to link it more with old club. Over years kit has changed away from Newports, some fans no happy with precieved Newport biasis. All the other Clubs have had over 10 years to save, borrow put together a plan, to purchase the 50% ownership from the WRU, (you can say they are prro, but 10 years is plently of time to club together an darrange something), the fact that the other clubs haven't suggests that they are happy with Newports running of the region, the lastest letter reinforces this.
IMO region - clubs are happy even if some fans are not.

Ospreys - formed with Swansea and Neath, dropped clubs names from titles, working with bridgend, IMO region doesn't really need a lot said.

Scarlets - rebranded llanelli RFC, dropped the llanelli from title, but still use history prior to 2003, and ERC use history prior to 2003, makes them a superclub, however they have always been the big club in thier area and the other clubs in the region are used to feeding into this, as I said the defination of what makes a region is if the clubs in the region work together, and in Scarlets case they do, therefore they would be classed as a region. More accuratly they are a promoted superclub that the other clubs in the region ahave got behind and supported, creating a regional team. importantally the clubs, and the fans of these clubs, work with and support the region.

Cardiff Blues - same as Scarlets, kept ERC history, and history of club from before 2003, however unlike Scarlets they do not having a fully working relationship with all the clubs in the region. Old Cardiff RFC fans see them as still Cardiff RFC, and unlike Scarlets fans of other clubs in the region see them as Cardiff RFC also, and not a representive team in the region. The clubs and fans of these clubs, do not fully co-operate with and support the region, therefor I'd class them as a Superclub.

Of course there will be arguments, but thats the way I see it anyway.

King

Your not far out, but that is very simplistic!!! Blues problem is that they weren't organised with Ponty and co initially, the warriors going under ensured all anger pointed south to Cardiff, home of the WRU and CARDIFF Blues!!!

Dragons issue is the Ebbw problem, they pulled out early on and geographically your talking an hours drive from one to the other, it just doesn't work with that kind of distance in between.

Swansea and Neath didn't just form outright, it was only after feuds with Llanelli and anyone else willing to be heard that Cuddy took the Ospreys on, formed by Neath, for Neath in Neath colours, but the new stadium proved a saviour in the sense that if it hadn't come when it did Ospreys would almost certainly have been divided.

Also it's only really now that Neath are involved on any level, they wanted out and refused to participate for ages!!

IMHO Scarlets are a bit of a joke as a 'region' a town of 50'000 people at inception representing a 1/4 of the population in temrs of participants??? How was that allowed??? Not that I'm not saying theyre doing a decent job today, but still it's iffy!

All the problems the club game faces today are at the hands of the WRU, from caving in to Llanelli at inception, letting the Warriors just fold, not offering to do anything with the Dragons ownership, allowing Cuddy's reckless spending and hampering of the other regions, or treating the Blues like the flagship. It all couldve been handled better, with a bit of common sense.

You cant tell a public how to feel, those along the A470 are being bred to hate the Blues, those north of Pontypool are looking south with distain, there are a large number of Bridgend and the surrounding folk who dislike the Ospreys, and a certain number in Neath who still have their nose put out by the Liberty, the only region really united is the Scarlets, and well everyone in the town should be, and the remaining few thousand in the masses of open land have to support someon within 100miles.

Sorry I should have been clear on the Cardiff Blues issue, I don't blame them for the regional problems in thier region, and calling them the only SuperClub.

Cardiff Blues paid the WRU money to be allowed to go as a stand alone Club, Celtic Warriors folded, and the WRU just shoved the old Warriors region mostly on the Blues.

The Blues never wanted it, had paid money to not have it, and it really is the WRU's fault for 1) allowing Blues to stand alone and then when they did allow it, to burden them with an area that they didn't want, nor did the area want them.

When folding the Warriors the WRU took the easy route and said your in Blues country now, and hoped it would work (it didn't and never would). What they should have done is said we can't have 2 regions in this area it's going to have to be one, paid Cardiff Blues back the money they paid to stand alone, and had Ponty, Bridgend and Cardiff work together to create a region.

Ospreys and neath have had there issues, but a marrage of clubs was going to, but they have created a new idenity.

Lots of mistakes made by the WRU, and the clubs are to blame as well for the superclub/region model Wales have. I also think there is more tinkering in store for the regions, The WRu clearly want to enter the WRU controlled RCG at some point and this mean a current region folding/merging etc.

RGC will be added as soon as the WRU think they can get away with it, and IMHO the Dragons are safe because of the ownership element by the WRU.

I would suggest downgrading Scarlets would essentially make them affordable for the WRU to get their hands on, although maybe downgrading the Dragons would do the same thing.

Either way the WRU want control of everything without having to pay for it.

There will be tinkering for years, but not for the sake of the game!!

Bluesman - the Scarlets are a hard one to class, going by Kingshu's criteria they are a superclub because they have not changed from what they were doing before regionalism. However prior to regionalism Llanelli RFC were doing a hell of a lot throughout what used to be Dyfyd (see Kingshu's maps, Scarlets region is shown on all of the maps as a region), probably more than most regions are doing now. It is not just a town team as you are making it out to be, and since I have been following rugby it never has been. There have always beeen Llanelli RFC and Scarlets supporters in the far west.

Peoples lack of understanding of West Wales is frightening, do people honestly think that Swansea is west? The country carries on far further than the M4 runs, and there are two bloody counties out in the true west that seem to be forgotten by nearly everyone on here.

Personally I think the Blues and Dragons will both lose their pro 12 license. The WRU will look at Dragons as the lowes team and one their own 50% off as easest to change, with th evalleys area being dis-enfranchised, and not buying into Blues, the WRU may decide th ebest solution to it revoke Blues and Dragons License, and sit down Cardiff RFC, Pontypridd RFC, Bedwas RFC, Newport RFC, Cross Keys RFC and all the other clubs in the two regions and tell them they are to form one representive side, and are to all work together in the creation and running of the regional team for them, or else WRU will create one that they are all to feed into?

This should have everyone in Wales having a team that they feel represents them. South side, North side (RGC) and Scarlets and Ospreys.

ScarletSpiderman by my defination, I put Scarlets as a region, it appears to me that Carmarthen Quins RFC and Llandovery RFC have bought into the region, and work with Llanelli RFC, to create a Scarlets representive team, however they also fall into the superclub bracket as being owned and run by Llanelli RFC, keeping history, and records of Llanelli RFC. They can be classed as both. Personally I would normally want them to start with a clean slate, no history, new kit, etc etc, but if the other clubs in the region are happy with Llanelli's running of it, (like Gwent clubs, happy with Newport running of the Dragons), I would put them more into the regional bracket.

Llanelli are a super-region.

I've raised this before, but if the WRU genuinely is a union, surely Messrs Lewis and Pickering can't just click their fingers and have any of the regions downgraded, merged or disbanded?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I've raised this before, but if the WRU genuinely is a union, surely Messrs Lewis and Pickering can't just click their fingers and have any of the regions downgraded, merged or disbanded?

Excellent point. Same applies to how they paid the bank a £5m renegotiation fee, rather than divert the funds to e.g. 'the grass roots'. Five million buys a lot of tackle bags for schools and clubs.

The management just seem to do whatever they want. It's like North Korea.

IF the WRU were to go down the route of 'ditching' two regions, I do think it would most likely be the Scarlets and Dragons. Just down to the fact that Swansea and Cardiff are the larger population bases, and technically no harder for fans to get to than Llanelli or Newport respectively. However to do that would involve a lot of shipping players around, in order to ensure that the best players are at the 'best' regions and getting the 'best' game time together.

Kingshu wrote:Personally I think the Blues and Dragons will both lose their pro 12 license. The WRU will look at Dragons as the lowes team and one their own 50% off as easest to change, with th evalleys area being dis-enfranchised, and not buying into Blues, the WRU may decide th ebest solution to it revoke Blues and Dragons License, and sit down Cardiff RFC, Pontypridd RFC, Bedwas RFC, Newport RFC, Cross Keys RFC and all the other clubs in the two regions and tell them they are to form one representive side, and are to all work together in the creation and running of the regional team for them, or else WRU will create one that they are all to feed into?

Jeez Louise.
Love the way you've aligned Cardiff, Bedwas and Cross Keys as if they are equal and Ponty too (the breakaway MP supported Valleys Rugby lot that failed).
I know it's awkward and hard to believe etc, but the "U" means "Union" in "WRU".

Cardiff Dave - If the WRU is truely a union of its clubs then I guess that would make the Dragons the safest of all the regions, seeing as they have more clubs in their region than anyone else (I am not 100% sure that is true, but remember it being quoted time and time again in the past).

I've heard that too, Spiderman.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I've heard that too, Spiderman.

It was probably you I heard it off

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Personally I think the Blues and Dragons will both lose their pro 12 license. The WRU will look at Dragons as the lowes team and one their own 50% off as easest to change, with th evalleys area being dis-enfranchised, and not buying into Blues, the WRU may decide th ebest solution to it revoke Blues and Dragons License, and sit down Cardiff RFC, Pontypridd RFC, Bedwas RFC, Newport RFC, Cross Keys RFC and all the other clubs in the two regions and tell them they are to form one representive side, and are to all work together in the creation and running of the regional team for them, or else WRU will create one that they are all to feed into?

Jeez Louise.
Love the way you've aligned Cardiff, Bedwas and Cross Keys as if they are equal and Ponty too (the breakaway MP supported Valleys Rugby lot that failed).
I know it's awkward and hard to believe etc, but the "U" means "Union" in "WRU".

When wouldn't I aligne them as equal, they are all Welsh prem clubs, why wouldn't they be equal?

This business of one region covering south east Wales...unless it is a north, east, west total rebrand, will never work in a million years. Never mind the fact that you are letting the best connected, most densely populated and most affluent area of the country have one region while everywhere else has three, what do you think concentrating all that resource into one is going to do to the other three? It'll be like recreating the Galacticos region the O's tried to build further east, and equally short-termist and unsustainable.