Top 3 players in the world in every position - updated

Evening all, I created a thread during the AI's based around the idea of 'world class' players and what makes a player worthy of this accolade. Personally I think that for a player to be truly world class they should be in the top three players in the world in their best/chosen position. I thought I'd recreate the thread with the 6N looming to see how everyone's views have changed in what is quite a short period of time and also so we can see how opinions alter during the 6N.

Obviously this is a thread hugely reliant on opinions of how players in certain positions should play, what a players best position is, whether a player looks very good because they are in a poor team or would be even better in a good one etc etc. As such lets try to keep debate constructive and friendly.

In terms of selecting players who are injured or not playing currently due to the differences between season I've simply tried to use common sense. For instance McCaw won't be playing for 6 months but definitely deserves to be in their for me whereas POC whilst an exceptional player has played very little rugby for a long time so misses out.

Loosehead - Healy, Woodcock, Domingo? (Sheridan getting rave reviews, the Beast is always strong, Grant's stock is rising fast)

Hooker - Du Plessis, Best, Adriaan Strauss

Tighthead - Cole, Franks, Adam Jones?

Lock - Etzebeth, Gray, Pape

Blindside - Lobbe, Wood, Ouedraogo/Dusautoir (wait for 6N form to split those two)

Openside - McCaw, Pocock, Robshaw (Tipuric unlucky to miss out in a very competitive position)

No 8 - Read, Vermuelen, Picamoles

Scrum half - Genia, Fotuali'i, Pienaar

Fly half - Carter, Cruden, Sexton (Nick Evans unlucky to miss out to Cruden/Sexton as those three are very close IMO as is Michalak)

Inside centre - Nonu, Fofana, McCabe

Outside centre - Smith, JDv2, Tuilagi

Wing - Savea, Habana, Jane

Full back - Dagg, Kearney, Beale (Halfpenny unlucky though I still feel he's a winger)

Exceptional players I've omitted as they've just been out too long at the moment (or are going to be out for a while) - POC, Ferris, Kaino, Croft, Juan Smith, Burger, SBW, JOC, Bowe.

Apologies to any players that have completely slipped my mind or anyone mortally offended by some of the selections.

Ha

Surprised not to see Tony Faletau or Rhys Priestland, an was very shocked not to see Williams!!?

What the hell are McCabe, Wood and Robshaw doing in there.

Smith at scrum half in place of Pienaar

Michalak in place of Sexton

O'Brien ahead of Robshaw

Ferris ahead of Wood

A french tighthead?

Morgannwg

As I stated I haven't selected Ferris, Croft and Kaino due to lack of rugby (or high level rugby) at which point Wood comes in IMO. On Robshaw people can continually bash him despite continued excellent form over the last few seasons and an impressive debut International season but I rate him. There are plenty of options at 7 though it has to be said - Louww, Hooper, Warburton, Tipuric, Rennie, Barclay, O'Brien...

As for McCabe it may sound an odd selection (it did to me when I first thought of it) but he's played very well in a strong Aus backline and at the end of the day world rugby is short of ICs currently. With Roberts out of form and SBW returning to league McCabe deserves that spot for me.

Zebo on current form must be pushing for a spot, and I'm probably going to get crucified for mentioning this but Paddy Wallace is probably one of the form ICs in the NH at the moment...

Also can you really count Fofana twice? If not then probably Conrad Smith is who you meant?

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Zebo on current form must be pushing for a spot, and I'm probably going to get crucified for mentioning this but Paddy Wallace is probably one of the form ICs in the NH at the moment...

Also can you really count Fofana twice? If not then probably Conrad Smith is who you meant?

Apologies for Fofana at OC that was a typo. Conrad Smith has now taken his rightful place on top of that pile.

Zebo is one of a host of players whos stock could rise massively in the 6N if they show good form. Wallace is an odd one given that he can't get a sniff of the Irish jersey but is playing very well at Ulster. Personally I'd hold Nonu, Fofana and McCabe well ahead of him at the moment though.

I can only feel for JP Pietersen.

Bar one good performance Wood has been anonymous in every match I've seen him in.

why not put in 6 locks and wings ?

Amazing how Evans can be mentioned as a World top 3 in his position when he's not played a test in 6 years and even then was reserve to DC.

I suppose it doesnt say a lot for the 10's around bar DC if we have to find a best 10 at club level.

SamWhitelock would rate as one of the best 3 Locks ,ditto Andrew Hore even if suspended.Conrad Smith is THE best 13 currently playing in World Rugby.

I would add in Corbisiero at Loosehead. He's not been out done and should be up there when not injured.

Gray at Lock? - based on 2011/12 season he's 1st name. Based on this season not so sure. Tomorrow we see whether he stays or perhaps Launchbury replaces him.

Not sure if any European Flyhalfs can make top 3 at 10. This season we might see how good or not Farrell is.

From what I saw of Wales in the autumn, Halfpenny is the only Welsh name that should be in the list.

JmD wrote:Bar one good performance Wood has been anonymous in every match I've seen him in.

They used to say that about Richard HIll....

Not a bad list actually

John Afoa at TH?
Nathan Hines?
Chris Henry at 7?
Willem Alberts?

Once the SR season is under way I expect a young chap called Johan Goosen to be on the FH list injuries aside. Plays at a higher level then Cruden.

I think any of the inside centres would face a stiff test from Frans Steyn.... he's miles ahead of McCabe and Nonu is his only match.

Taylorman wrote:Amazing how Evans can be mentioned as a World top 3 in his position when he's not played a test in 6 years and even then was reserve to DC.

I suppose it doesnt say a lot for the 10's around bar DC if we have to find a best 10 at club level.

It's not that amazing. Carter has been by some distance the best 10 in the world for most of the last 10 years. Evans was and is as close behind him as any other player, but had the misfortune to be born (and capped as) a Kiwi. He very sensibly made the decision that rather than warm the bench for Carter, he'd go and earn his family some real money in Europe.

Have you watched him play over the last 5 years? If he were eligible, he'd walk into the squad of pretty much any international side and in many cases straight into the starting slot.

To pick an analogy from another sport, the guy who was the second best sailor in the world has no Olympic medals. Plenty of world cup wins and points, but he had the misfortune to be British and the best sailor in the world was Ben Ainslie. With only one Olympic entry available in their class, Ben was the one who went to the Olympics. No-one outside sailing even knows the other guy's name (and I, to my shame, can't remember it). But he was still (as measured by world cup points and suchlike) the second best sailor in the world.

It's more subjective with Nick Evans, but look at any aspect of his play and it's consistently right up there with the best in the world. Kicking, passing, vision, control of the game, and while he's not Wilko he's no slouch in defence either.

Evans I'm afraid is unproven and has been since 2007 so I don't think he can be in the list.

Charlie Hodgson is just as deadly at a premiership level.

Test rugby isn't just a higher bracket of skill, its a higher bracket of mental toughness.

My opinion, for what it's worth (these are in order).

1. Woodcock, Domingo then Healy
2. Du Plessis, Moore then Hore
3. Cole, Jones and Afoa
4. Etzebeth, Maestri and Botha
5. Whitelock, Gray and Charteris
6. Kaino, Juan Smith and Lydiate
7. McCaw, Pocock and Dusatoir
8. Parisse, Read and Picamoles
9. Genia, Youngs and Pienaar
10. Carter, Sexton and Evans
11. North, Habana and Clerc
12. Fofana, Steyn and Nonu
13. Conrad Smith, AA-C and Tuilagi
14. Jane, JP Pieterson and Nygwena
15. Dagg, Kearney and Halfpenny

It's actually really hard to do!

fa0019 wrote:Evans I'm afraid is unproven and has been since 2007 so I don't think he can be in the list.

Charlie Hodgson is just as deadly at a premiership level.

Test rugby isn't just a higher bracket of skill, its a higher bracket of mental toughness.

The difference being that Hodgson has repeatedly been tried at international level, and only rarely looked comfortable.

Evans isn't "unproven". His ability to play at that level has never been in doubt, he just had the misfortune that one of his countrymen was even better. His win percentage in 16 caps is 94%, falling to 92% if you discount the minnows. He scored 103 points, including 5 tries (which is a better hit rate at international level than many wingers and the same try-per-game ratio as Carter's 29 tries in 94 matches).

By comparison, the equivalent stats for his successors as Carter's backup are:
Cruden 19 wins in 21 matches (91%, no minnows), 78 points and 1 try.
Slade 9 wins in 10 matches (90%, including games against Canada and Japan), 60 points and 3 tries
(don't have full stats for Donald)

It's possible that he's somehow lost that ability in the last 5 years, but his club form has never dipped.

Of course, we'll never know unless he gets a Barbarians call up (now that would be tasty). But he's worthy of serious consideration.

Nick Evans post RWC was considered by many the equal or better than Dan Carter.
He made it clear to the NZ selectors him or me,the selectors said DC,it is also significant.
That Byron Kelleher was rated as the BEST in Europe at 9 recently he has`nt played test rugby since 2007 either.

Loosehead: Healy, Woodcock, Domingo
Hooker: Du Plessis, Hore, Best
Tighthead: Franks, Afoa, Cole
Lock: Etzebeth, Maestri, Whitelock
Blindside: O'Brien, Lobbe, Ouedrago
Openside: McCaw, Pocock, Dusautoir
No.8: Read, Parisse Picamoles
SH: Genia, Pienaar, Parra
FH: Carter, Sexton, Cruden
IC: Fofana, Steyn, Nonu
OC: Smith, Davies/Tuilagi/BOD
Wing: Habana, Jane, Savea
FB: Dagg, Kearney, Beale

fa0019 wrote:Once the SR season is under way I expect a young chap called Johan Goosen to be on the FH list injuries aside. Plays at a higher level then Cruden.

I think any of the inside centres would face a stiff test from Frans Steyn.... he's miles ahead of McCabe and Nonu is his only match.

geez, some statement. 'Higher level'? 'Miles ahead'? how are these measured?Goosen for me at test level was disappointing bar one acceptable performance, though hardly his fault, as Meyer brought him back when he wasnt ready. He had poor matches vs the ABs. How last years injury and form has effected his confidence we'll see this year. How has he 'played at a higher level' than Cruden? And Steyn?well...

SA need to get their backline working like a backline rather than as a supplement to their forwards. Only then can any of their backs be considered world class. At best they have 'moments' few and far between, with far lower work rates than their opposites.

If you compared Nonus yardage, passing, offloads etc to Steyns there would be a gulf.

Pieterson, Habana, Goosen...all very capable backs but rendered neutral by their gameplan, we have a long wait beteween drinks to see anything. That frustration is what makes Habana great. He goes off and does his own thing.His success is never after several skillful passes before it gets to him- in fact last year SA did exactly that and the last ball to Habana he dropped with the line in front of him. He initiates, and usually finishes things all on his own. Not the best use of a great wing, or a sign of a backline functioning at peak efficiency.

If youre comparing backlines, consider this. Put the AB backline behind the SA pack. That would be a difficult side to face, and it illustrates, I believe, how much the Bok backline needs to improve.

Poorfour wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Evans I'm afraid is unproven and has been since 2007 so I don't think he can be in the list.

Charlie Hodgson is just as deadly at a premiership level.

Test rugby isn't just a higher bracket of skill, its a higher bracket of mental toughness.

The difference being that Hodgson has repeatedly been tried at international level, and only rarely looked comfortable.

Evans isn't "unproven". His ability to play at that level has never been in doubt, he just had the misfortune that one of his countrymen was even better. His win percentage in 16 caps is 94%, falling to 92% if you discount the minnows. He scored 103 points, including 5 tries (which is a better hit rate at international level than many wingers and the same try-per-game ratio as Carter's 29 tries in 94 matches).

By comparison, the equivalent stats for his successors as Carter's backup are:
Cruden 19 wins in 21 matches (91%, no minnows), 78 points and 1 try.
Slade 9 wins in 10 matches (90%, including games against Canada and Japan), 60 points and 3 tries
(don't have full stats for Donald)

It's possible that he's somehow lost that ability in the last 5 years, but his club form has never dipped.

Of course, we'll never know unless he gets a Barbarians call up (now that would be tasty). But he's worthy of serious consideration.

All good stuff ... I just cant see how not playing at test level makes you world class. How would he go against the Boks now? who knows?

I just think we should know before picking him.

theslosty wrote:Loosehead: Healy, Woodcock, Domingo
Hooker: Du Plessis, Hore, Best
Tighthead: Franks, Afoa, Cole
Lock: Etzebeth, Maestri, Whitelock
Blindside: O'Brien, Lobbe, Ouedrago
Openside: McCaw, Pocock, Dusautoir
No.8: Read, Parisse Picamoles
SH: Genia, Pienaar, Parra
FH: Carter, Sexton, Cruden
IC: Fofana, Steyn, Nonu
OC: Smith, Davies/Tuilagi/BOD
Wing: Habana, Jane, Savea
FB: Dagg, Kearney, Beale

This is a good list. Pretty much agree with all of this .

Havent seen much of him recently but i thought Domingo was meant to have been pretty poor since he came from his injuries

Yes Domingo has been pretty poor but i'm very surprised to not see Mas on any list, also a list without Adam Jones at TH can't be taken seriously.