The problem with Wales

First topic message reminder :

The 6 Nations needs a strong Wales as much as all the other teams. Where has it gone wrong?

I've read on here and heard from many others, theories about the coaching set-up, oversees players, players playing in France, WRU mismanagement etc etc. Which one is it or is it a bit of all?

I was saddened to catch the Scarlets/Leicester game and see the paucity of the crowd and the resulting poor atmosphere - the only audible noise was the booing of the opposition.
What was good to see was the contrast in style of the more creative Welsh side against what was admittedly a particularly dire Leicester performance (perhaps not a typical display), but still a timely reminder why a good Wales is good for our game. Shame there were so few true rugby fans there to see it. I know it was a dead rubber but a big game all the same - no excuse!

My fear is that next year could well see 2 Welsh teams in the Football Premier League and that the unrelenting march of the round ball game will continue to the detriment of our beloved game. I suspect that Scottish rugby has been paying this price for many years now and that sadly Wales looks like it could follow.

Mainly to Welsh posters - Is football's popularity negatively effecting rugby or is this an unfair assessment from an occasional viewer from this side of the border of games on your side?

Comfort wrote:fow what its worth I agree with this:

'My fear is that next year could well see 2 Welsh teams in the Football Premier League and that the unrelenting march of the round ball game will continue to the detriment of our beloved game. I suspect that Scottish rugby has been paying this price for many years now and that sadly Wales looks like it could follow.'

I think this illustrates that due to the amount of money involved in football in comparison to rugby, especially comparing the demands and needs on the body against the 'celebrity' status youngsters can acheive in both sports, that the smaller countries who have successful football sides will see a detrimental affect to potential rugby numbers (and therefore potential physical talent) coming through at grassroots.

Success breeds interest.

Great for England Rugby ! The England football team are pants! Hang on, Wales and Scotland are awful too....

Nobbled, I think Englands population is big enough to sustain a number of sports at the highest level.

You're not losing all of your athletic/physically talented specimens to one sport.

Comfort, good to hear a reasoned response.

Don't you think that success comes from increase in numbers taking part, due to money and the media obsession in football? As long as the same company who control TV rights on football, control the majority of the press this will continue and rugby won't stand a chance, particularly in the smaller countries.

I think success can come from a number of things, increased numbers taking part is one way to look at it, the higher the numbers parcipitating, the more likely you are to find guys with the physical/mental tools to excel in that sport.

Money is a huge one, frankly, if you have more money, you can offer players better wages/facilities, which means a better standard of living (generally) for that player. Meaning you can attract more guys with the physical/mental tools to excel in that sport.

If you have a large playing base and money, well, you have the tools to be successful but that in itself doesnt guarentee success.

England have a large population and large finances (in comparison to the 3 celtic nations) and I think this is why they can compete at the top level in a number of sports (Rugby/Football/Athletics/Cricket/Hockey....) with a realistic chance of success.

Sport around the world is generally dominated by countries with larger populations and/or finances, it just depends on how they put those to use that will determine how successful they actually are.

My 2c's anyway!

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:Comfort, good to hear a reasoned response.

Don't you think that success comes from increase in numbers taking part, due to money and the media obsession in football? As long as the same company who control TV rights on football, control the majority of the press this will continue and rugby won't stand a chance, particularly in the smaller countries.

The media are so heavily biased in favour of football coverage. Talk Sport radio - it's a joke - should be Talk Football. Nothing else gets anything but a cursory nod. They might argue that it is because that is what the public want, but if the public aren't given a choice, then the status quo will remain.

Nobbled, to me it just again highlights the huge amount of money involved in football compared to the majority of other sports!

I believe Talksport too is allied to Sky. Murdoch threw his lot in with football and has ensured that it is hyped everywhere, bringing in the money and thus taking the talent potential from all other sports.

As I said before, the likes of France and England are big enough to still compete in many sports but where does that leave the likes of Wales. To see a heritage as rich as Welsh rugby losing out to football is truly saddening.

No Problem, sorry kiwi and anyone else that had to troll through that, was merely trying to make a point initially that unless you make the effort to actually attend games you cannot appreciate what the atmosphere is like in the stadium, the game reffered to has been mentioned on the Scarlets own pages and forums as been a great response from the fans actually lifting the team and providing the 16th man effect expected from home crowds.

As for the impact of football, yes I do agree that it will have an adverse effect on rugby in Wales unless the WRU get to grips with reallity and we see a significant change in their policy of prioritising Team Wales over the regions, the regions provided the players to win 3 grand slams in just 8 years after a very poor few decades, in return the WRU have controlled the game in Wales to suit their own ends and the regions have become uncompetative at the top level.

I watched the sports section of BBC Breakfast on Monday morning, and it didn't surprise me that the first two items were on English and then Scottish domestic football; but then they had a bit about women's and men's international cricket and that was it. Not even a mention of the Six Nations. The host broadcaster of the tournament!

How does rugby compare with other sports in the UK?

I think it has got to a stage in Ireland where in terms of coverage by national media it is the biggest sport.

I think we're pretty lucky in Wales coverage-wise.

We get Rabo games on s4c or bbc wales.
We've got the scrum V show on both of the same channels with a Heineken Cup roundup show.
The LV games are generally on S4c too if im not mistaken.

We get the majority of internationals on terestial tv too!

nobbled wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:Comfort, good to hear a reasoned response.

Don't you think that success comes from increase in numbers taking part, due to money and the media obsession in football? As long as the same company who control TV rights on football, control the majority of the press this will continue and rugby won't stand a chance, particularly in the smaller countries.

The media are so heavily biased in favour of football coverage. Talk Sport radio - it's a joke - should be Talk Football. Nothing else gets anything but a cursory nod. They might argue that it is because that is what the public want, but if the public aren't given a choice, then the status quo will remain.

Completely agree with you on TalkSport. I listen to it occasionally on TuneInradio expecting to hear some good rugby chat. They would sooner discuss what Clinton Morrison of colchester Utd does in his spare time than talk about rugby.

Have you too many games on free to air TV?

Comfort wrote:I think we're pretty lucky in Wales coverage-wise.

We get Rabo games on s4c or bbc wales.
We've got the scrum V show on both of the same channels with a Heineken Cup roundup show.
The LV games are generally on S4c too if im not mistaken.

We get the majority of internationals on terestial tv too!

Same in Ireland. Our ScrumV is called "Against the Head" featuring Alan Quinlan, Victor Costello, the dreadful hobo Gerry Thornley and the cute, squashable Joanne Cantwell. Can be a decent show.

Great the way all internationals are on terresial tv too. Love that.

Yes we do, Stag, certainly at regional level. There's no incentive for people to get down to the ground and support their team when it's on telly at teatime.

Stag, it depends who you listen too to be honest.

Some think that its part of the decreasing crowd numbers in the welsh game.

Others (like me) think its brilliant to have so much rugby available to watch for free.

I consider myself a rugby fan, but due to my commitments and lifestyle its very rare I'll have the time or money available to actually get myself down the arms park to watch the blues (my team, i live in cardiff), let alone any of the other regions or internationals.

Comfort wrote:but due to my commitments and lifestyle its very rare I'll have the time or money available to actually get myself down the arms park to watch the blues (my team, i live in cardiff), let alone any of the other regions or internationals.

Comfort, I don't know your anything about committments so I dont mean any offence but by and large I find that line about not having time/money to be an excuse not a reason.

Now obviously you could have loads of kids or be unemployed Im not trying to imply anything about you. Just speaking generally.

But if you live in Cardiff and a Cardiff Blues ticket can be got ten quid then I wonder how hard it is to go watch them if you really wanted to.

If Cardiff Blues weren't on the telly would you find a way of getting down there?

Again not trying to offend, just playing Devils Advocate.

Stag, with almost every game televised there has been a growth in armchair fans and dissapointing crowds at games, I go to every home game myself but have often been tempted not to bother when I'm heading out through the front door in all weather to watch a team striped of its star players by team Wales orders or meaningless extra Wales fixtures.
There are sound arguments for both showing all home games and against. personally I think there needs to be a compromise where the games are shown but either delayed or at the time that suits the clubs rather than the KO times been dictated by the TV companies.
A return to Saturday afternoon or early evening kick offs would probably help to grow the crowds.

Cardiff Blues Ticket Prices:

£8 to see LV=Cup Pool Matches, Friendly Matches, Treviso, Zebres. Kids are £1

£12 to see Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Connacht, Glasgow, Edinburgh. Kids are £5

£18 to see Heineken Cup Matches, Scarlets, Dragons, Ospreys. Kids are £8

2ndtimeround wrote:Stag, with almost every game televised there has been a growth in armchair fans and dissapointing crowds at games, I go to every home game myself but have often been tempted not to bother when I'm heading out through the front door in all weather to watch a team striped of its star players by team Wales orders or meaningless extra Wales fixtures.
There are sound arguments for both showing all home games and against. personally I think there needs to be a compromise where the games are shown but either delayed or at the time that suits the clubs rather than the KO times been dictated by the TV companies.
A return to Saturday afternoon or early evening kick offs would probably help to grow the crowds.

A brilliant point 2ndtimearound.

I've long felt that 18:30 on a Saturday the best time for any professional rugby game.

- It means that club players can attend the game. Cardiff Blues could make a small investment in providing a free coach service that visits all clubs in the region and brings them to Cardiff for ticket holders.

- It means that kids can still come. If the game kicks off too late (for example the 19:45 kick off) then it doesn't end until nearly 10pm which is too late for kids.

- Its late enough to allow punters to move onto the pubs for a real good night out afterwards. Local publicans would be firmly behind it.

Stag, I understand what you're saying, but I think its a case of different folks, different strokes - no offence caused.

For me, in simple terms, I'm 23 and trying to carve my life in a career I enjoy (Djing/Music) whilst holding down a part-time job for a steady income. Trying to do that means my weekends are spent travelling around the UK and any spare money I can save is spent on music production/Djing equipment.

So for me, if the games were not on TV, no, I'd probably give up on club rugby as frankly its not as important to me as my future career and the prospect of not doing what i love for a living.

That'll probably make me an "armchair fan"

I think you could also look at where the Welsh get their player base.

If it's traditionally been a 'working class' sport and the vast majority of players have come through the state school system, then any changes to the way the schools teach sport can have a knock on effect to the supply of players.

One of the past weaknesses and stengths of the English recruitment structure was that most of the players came from a small base of kids that learned their rugby at private schools. It was a weakness in that it missed out on the huge pool of potential talent that might have been in the state system, but a strength in that the private schools will always play rugby.

My kids play rugby at a normal secondary school - and any training or coaching is done out of school hours - the PE lessons are all geared to giving the kids a taste of a multitude of sports, non of which they will follow up as it's all crap (according to them). So consequently they don't even have a regular fixture list.

Now I went to the same school (a few years earlier of course) and with a PE department of about three and a bunch of other teachers who would help, the school managed to organise fixtures and train teams for every year group. The current PE department vastly outnumber that of my day, however the syllabus is not aimed at the traditional winter sports.

Compare that to the (posh) private schools in the area and they always put rugby at the top of their winter sports curriculum.

And if you have never played rugby at school and club level, if you have never left blood and bits of teeth out on the field, where is the impitus to go out on a cold afternoon and watch somebody else do it?

The Problem with Wales is that as a Nation they are too quick to build players up only to then put them down if they have a bad game.

Ask me if I think Wales are a poor rugby team then I'd say go away you half wit, of course not. 3 GS in a short space of time speaks for itself.

The problem for Wales this year is that a number of young players burst onto the scene and won the GS its doesn't take long for international coaches to work players out, this year was always going to be tough not helped by Gatland going to the Lions.

You've got to give them more time Rob Howley is a class act.

red_stag wrote:

2ndtimeround wrote:Stag, with almost every game televised there has been a growth in armchair fans and dissapointing crowds at games, I go to every home game myself but have often been tempted not to bother when I'm heading out through the front door in all weather to watch a team striped of its star players by team Wales orders or meaningless extra Wales fixtures.
There are sound arguments for both showing all home games and against. personally I think there needs to be a compromise where the games are shown but either delayed or at the time that suits the clubs rather than the KO times been dictated by the TV companies.
A return to Saturday afternoon or early evening kick offs would probably help to grow the crowds.

A brilliant point 2ndtimearound.

I've long felt that 18:30 on a Saturday the best time for any professional rugby game.

- It means that club players can attend the game. Cardiff Blues could make a small investment in providing a free coach service that visits all clubs in the region and brings them to Cardiff for ticket holders.- It means that kids can still come. If the game kicks off too late (for example the 19:45 kick off) then it doesn't end until nearly 10pm which is too late for kids.

- Its late enough to allow punters to move onto the pubs for a real good night out afterwards. Local publicans would be firmly behind it.

I could see that working really well on a Saturday evening in Cardiff as with the ground been in the city centre it should get a good take up, could also see it working on some games at present for the Scarlets, they already do a lot with the schools and the youth teams but buses from the regions feeder clubs would certainly help if they dont already do it, deffinately a question worth asking the supporters trust.

The problem with Wales is that in the past decade they have always done badly in the 6 Nations in the seasons between winning Grand Slams.

Grand Slam in 2005 - but in 2006 and 2007 came 5th in 6 Nations (beaten by Ireland in both years).

Grand Slam in 2008 - but in 2009, 2010 and 2011 came 4th in 6 Nations (beaten by Ireland in two of the three years).

Grand Slam in 2012 - but in 2013? (already beaten by Ireland).

There's been a problem for years.

Whats the significance of losing to Ireland?

red_stag wrote:Whats the significance of losing to Ireland?

Significance is they cannot do a grand slam therefore history suggests they will be spoon contenders.

its only ever one extreme for Wales.

GunsGerms wrote:

red_stag wrote:Whats the significance of losing to Ireland?

Significance is they cannot do a grand slam therefore history suggests they will be spoon contenders.

its only ever one extreme for Wales.

No I mean in general. The poster above is focused on their performance against Ireland. Surely their defeats to Scotland/Italy are more relevant for coming 5th.

red_stag wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

red_stag wrote:Whats the significance of losing to Ireland?

Significance is they cannot do a grand slam therefore history suggests they will be spoon contenders.

its only ever one extreme for Wales.

No I mean in general. The poster above is focused on their performance against Ireland. Surely their defeats to Scotland/Italy are more relevant for coming 5th.

As "the poster above", let me explain. I quoted each time Wales have been beaten by Ireland in non-Grand Slam years because it was Ireland who beat them last Saturday. If it had been one of the other sides in the 6 Nations who beat Wales last Saturday, I'd have quoted how many times that side - not Ireland - has beaten Wales between Grand Slams.

As GunsGerms pointed out, losing last Saturday means Wales can't do a Grand Slam and may be spoon contenders.

But if they'd won their first 6 Nations match they'd still be in the mix for a Grand Slam. If they were still in the mix, I wouldn't have posted the comment at all, because I couldn't yet have listed 2013 as a season between Grand Slams!

Swansea and Cardiff FCs have always drawn bigger crowds than their Welsh rugby brothers be it Clubs or Regions but the Welsh football will never fill the MS.