The Lions captaincy

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon 04 Feb 2013, 4:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Lions tours are what they ere in long-gone halcyon days of yore.
Concurrent ones are over in the time took from embarkation to arrival on the outward journey.
But the skipper's perk seems unchanged - undroppable.
There isn't a position, let alone an experienced captain who could be confidently predicted to guarantee a match day selection.

I said this before when I was Portnoy, but I'll say it again - give the job to BOD because of his credentials as a player, a social smooocher, a media man and all-round-good-chap.

But don't repeat the mistake of 1983 when they chose FitzGerald and played him in preference to and despite the fact that Colin Deans was far superior on tour.

by Bathman_in_London Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:10 pm

In terms of having a player who is likely to play in the tests then Cole would be a good candidate but I don't see him as a tour leader.

I think Heaslip is the likely candidate. I predict he will lead Ireland to a decent 6N as well as winning some silverwear with Leinster too. Added to that he (in my mind) is one of the players who is likely to be starting in the tests.

by GunsGerms Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:10 pm

pbuk0 wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
pbuk0 wrote:As a complete left field suggestion... what about Dan Cole as Captain??

Hard to know. Dont think I have ever heard him speak. Does he talk?

No but he could lead by example and he is worthy of a place in the team..

No doubt about that.

by fa0019 Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:11 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole

not an English fan. Here in SA we acknowledge good rugby players. Tuilagi is one of them... one of the few true class players in Europe. BOD is another... but for me and many others, Tuilagi is a special talent.

by GunsGerms Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:15 pm

fa0019 wrote:Hookisms and Hyperbole

not an English fan. Here in SA we acknowledge good rugby players. Tuilagi is one of them... one of the few true class players in Europe. BOD is another... but for me and many others, Tuilagi is a special talent.

Are you not originally from England?

by fa0019 Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:15 pm

close GunsGerms.

I'm a expat Scot.

by GunsGerms Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:16 pm

fa0019 wrote:close GunsGerms.

I'm a expat Scot.

Anglo Scot?

by pbuk0 Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:17 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
pbuk0 wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
pbuk0 wrote:As a complete left field suggestion... what about Dan Cole as Captain??

Hard to know. Dont think I have ever heard him speak. Does he talk?

No but he could lead by example and he is worthy of a place in the team..

No doubt about that.

Cole seems to have that quiet authority, he would not waste any words and only speak when necessary.. he is also hard as nails and won't take a backward step..

by fa0019 Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:20 pm

Anglo-Scot... Well I'm of protestant extraction so my family is historically from Anglo heritage at a stretch.

So you can only admire ENG players if you're from ENG or have ENG heritage. Shame if so.

by Sin é Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:21 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
fa0019 wrote:His last tour was disappointing. Good in defence sure but what did he do with the ball in hand... precious little and he was well taken care of by the boks.

please note also... his opposite man was Adi Jacobs in the first 2 tests.

Well now you are just being rather silly. It's shame you see rugby in such a (one-eyed) simplistic fashion. Is the only marker of a centre's effectiveness what he does with ball in hand? No wonder you like players like Tuilagi. If he and Roberts paired up together I prescribe you about a dozen pairs of under pants to bring to games with you for every time you cream yourself at such displays or uninspired, one dimensional straight line running. Let's put it this way, Roberts has never looked as good at international level as when he played with BOD. That's because BOD offers much, much more than someone like Tuilagi at present. Wasn't it just this autumn when many English fans called for him to be dropped because of his lack of spacial awareness and distribution? My, my, how short the memory seems to be. For all these outstanding skills you and other say he possesses I have only seen them once and that was against New Zealand. Now, credit where credit is due he really was superb that day. The challenge is to back it up. And even if he does (which he probably will- I bet is is praying to be up against Keith 'turnstile defence' Earls) the dearth of quality centres will probably mean he will partner BOD for the Lions. And BOD will be captain.

On the Robshaw front, good player no doubt. As good as Tipuric? Nope. If Ireland had a competent coach and they picked Chris Henry, the outstanding 7 in the Heinkein Cup, then that would be another to the list. What if Warburton suddenly hits form? What about if places are tight and Gatland decides he needs SOB, someone who can play 6, 7 and 8?

Also, weren't many English fans on this board calling for him to be dropped as captain due to his lack of, you know, captaining nouse and skills in the autumn? And now he's a Lions captain. So long my friend, and thanks for all the fish.

What total bullsh**t about Earls. For the record - against England last 6Ns, Earls, partnered with D'Arcy (and little possession) managed to make 3 clean breaks & beat 3 defenders. He also didn't miss a tackle in the entire 6Ns and which resulted in a draw in Paris. Tuilagi & Barritt didn't manage any breaks and ran a combined 15 metres (compared to Earls 82m) when playing against Ireland.

Going on the 2nd half of the match against Wales, I think the coach got the selections right as Henry was on the pitch when both Tipuric & Warburton were there. How did you think that went?

by GunsGerms Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:21 pm

fa0019 wrote:Anglo-Scot... Well I'm of protestant extraction so my family is historically from Anglo heritage at a stretch.

So you can only admire ENG players if you're from ENG or have ENG heritage. Shame if so.

I was messing with you. Though it is odd that a lot of your favorite players are either English or from the SH. Guscott, Tuilagi etc.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:24 pm

greytiger wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
rodders wrote:Heaslip was stand in captain in BOD and O'Connells absence, the question was did he do enough to retain it against a guy who is Irelands greatest ever player and captain? Not in my opinion.

Heaslip had a decent game on Saturday but BOD,Best, Sexton and Donnacha Ryan were the leaders out there imo. Heaslip is not captaincy material imo and I suspect BOD knows this too.

Whether he knows of Heaslips weakness or not is irrelevant. He should be throwing his support behind his captain 100%. BOD was MOTM on Saturday and he deserved it, he was again outstanding. He and Conrad Smith are the best 13s of our generation.

But he did come down a notch or 2 in my estimations by his rather cool dismissal of Heaslip as captain for the 6N. It seemed juvenile and to be honest if I were Heaslip I would be a wee bit wee'd off that BOD was being such a rabble-rouser.

Heaslip is a good player and is a natural successor to Ireland's captiancy. BOD should be guiding guys like Heaslip and or Sexton instead of being petulant.
+1 (normally I despise the plus one response but as this concurs with an observation I made earlier, I'll excuse myself)

+1

by Chjw131 Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:30 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
greytiger wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
rodders wrote:Heaslip was stand in captain in BOD and O'Connells absence, the question was did he do enough to retain it against a guy who is Irelands greatest ever player and captain? Not in my opinion.

Heaslip had a decent game on Saturday but BOD,Best, Sexton and Donnacha Ryan were the leaders out there imo. Heaslip is not captaincy material imo and I suspect BOD knows this too.

Whether he knows of Heaslips weakness or not is irrelevant. He should be throwing his support behind his captain 100%. BOD was MOTM on Saturday and he deserved it, he was again outstanding. He and Conrad Smith are the best 13s of our generation.

But he did come down a notch or 2 in my estimations by his rather cool dismissal of Heaslip as captain for the 6N. It seemed juvenile and to be honest if I were Heaslip I would be a wee bit wee'd off that BOD was being such a rabble-rouser.

Heaslip is a good player and is a natural successor to Ireland's captiancy. BOD should be guiding guys like Heaslip and or Sexton instead of being petulant.
+1 (normally I despise the plus one response but as this concurs with an observation I made earlier, I'll excuse myself)
+1

+1 and -1

On the basis that BOD should be publicly behind his Captain 100% but also that I concur Heaslip isn't great Captaincy material. He has a touch of the James Haskell brand about him and in interview he actively comes across this way.

by fa0019 Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:33 pm

GunsGerms

SH naturally because its sometimes difficult to get esp. NH club rugby here but we do get HC so you can sort of keep up. But 90% of my rugby viewing is SH.

Guscott, not sure where you pulled that one out... I do think he was a top class player on a par with the other great centres of the era. If I recall I've heard BOD saying he was the player he most looked up to as a teenager.

by Sin é Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:34 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
greytiger wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
rodders wrote:Heaslip was stand in captain in BOD and O'Connells absence, the question was did he do enough to retain it against a guy who is Irelands greatest ever player and captain? Not in my opinion.

Heaslip had a decent game on Saturday but BOD,Best, Sexton and Donnacha Ryan were the leaders out there imo. Heaslip is not captaincy material imo and I suspect BOD knows this too.

Whether he knows of Heaslips weakness or not is irrelevant. He should be throwing his support behind his captain 100%. BOD was MOTM on Saturday and he deserved it, he was again outstanding. He and Conrad Smith are the best 13s of our generation.

But he did come down a notch or 2 in my estimations by his rather cool dismissal of Heaslip as captain for the 6N. It seemed juvenile and to be honest if I were Heaslip I would be a wee bit wee'd off that BOD was being such a rabble-rouser.

Heaslip is a good player and is a natural successor to Ireland's captiancy. BOD should be guiding guys like Heaslip and or Sexton instead of being petulant.
+1 (normally I despise the plus one response but as this concurs with an observation I made earlier, I'll excuse myself)
+1

I'd like to hear what BOD did say (do you have a link). You have to realise that BOD & Heaslip would have been through a lot together and would be a typical Irish (slagging) way of dealing with the situation. For instance, some people might have misunderstood a tweet from Cian Healy that he was half glad Zebo didn't get to score that try after his flick because they would never hear the end of it from Zebo.

by Sin é Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:36 pm

fa0019 wrote:GunsGerms

SH naturally because its sometimes difficult to get esp. NH club rugby here but we do get HC so you can sort of keep up. But 90% of my rugby viewing is SH.

Guscott, not sure where you pulled that one out... I do think he was a top class player on a par with the other great centres of the era. If I recall I've heard BOD saying he was the player he most looked up to as a teenager.

No - Tim Horan was his idol.

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:38 pm

pbuk0 wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
pbuk0 wrote:As a complete left field suggestion... what about Dan Cole as Captain??

Hard to know. Dont think I have ever heard him speak. Does he talk?

No but he could lead by example and he is worthy of a place in the team..

Can't think that Dan's yer man but f you are going out of left field, Jonny Wilkinson?

by fa0019 Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:39 pm

I did hear it in an TV interview.... perhaps it was a lions interview a few years back etc... but he certainly said that or along those lines in terms of looked up to/admired etc.

by Sin é Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:44 pm

fa0019 wrote:I did hear it in an TV interview.... perhaps it was a lions interview a few years back etc... but he certainly said that or along those lines in terms of looked up to/admired etc.

It wasn't a BBC tv interview by any chance? Very Happy

I just can't imagine any Irish player as a kid looking up to any English player (even though Wilko would be liked, I can't recall ever hearing any kid aspiring to be him over here).

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:47 pm

Sin é wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
greytiger wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
rodders wrote:Heaslip was stand in captain in BOD and O'Connells absence, the question was did he do enough to retain it against a guy who is Irelands greatest ever player and captain? Not in my opinion.

Heaslip had a decent game on Saturday but BOD,Best, Sexton and Donnacha Ryan were the leaders out there imo. Heaslip is not captaincy material imo and I suspect BOD knows this too.

Whether he knows of Heaslips weakness or not is irrelevant. He should be throwing his support behind his captain 100%. BOD was MOTM on Saturday and he deserved it, he was again outstanding. He and Conrad Smith are the best 13s of our generation.

But he did come down a notch or 2 in my estimations by his rather cool dismissal of Heaslip as captain for the 6N. It seemed juvenile and to be honest if I were Heaslip I would be a wee bit wee'd off that BOD was being such a rabble-rouser.

Heaslip is a good player and is a natural successor to Ireland's captiancy. BOD should be guiding guys like Heaslip and or Sexton instead of being petulant.
+1 (normally I despise the plus one response but as this concurs with an observation I made earlier, I'll excuse myself)
+1

I'd like to hear what BOD did say (do you have a link). You have to realise that BOD & Heaslip would have been through a lot together and would be a typical Irish (slagging) way of dealing with the situation. For instance, some people might have misunderstood a tweet from Cian Healy that he was half glad Zebo didn't get to score that try after his flick because they would never hear the end of it from Zebo.

Jiffy and BOD did a piece to camera for ScrumV if you have BBC iplayer available in ROI, it's there. He he seemed less than happy to be by-passed for the captaincy.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 05 Feb 2013, 5:47 pm

Sin é wrote: What total bullsh**t about Earls. For the record - against England last 6Ns, Earls, partnered with D'Arcy (and little possession) managed to make 3 clean breaks & beat 3 defenders. He also didn't miss a tackle in the entire 6Ns and which resulted in a draw in Paris. Tuilagi & Barritt didn't manage any breaks and ran a combined 15 metres (compared to Earls 82m) when playing against Ireland.

Going on the 2nd half of the match against Wales, I think the coach got the selections right as Henry was on the pitch when both Tipuric & Warburton were there. How did you think that went?

Oh Sin you naughty boy, I can see your posts again and it makes me sad. Don't even ask how baby Jesus feels about it. He's apoplectic frankly.

Do correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't your states about turnstile Earls irrelevant? I just wondered as you quoted stats from an England match last year when I was talking about a match from last week. Unless you can see into the future. If so, I'm impressed. It makes you like a little Yoda, although more sense he makes. I'm pretty sure Earls was dreadful when he came on and cost the team seven valuable points. Sure he tried his little heart out god love him. What your states show is that he has got even less effective despite playing more. Deary deary me. Sad times.

Indeed Henry was on the pitch with both Warburton and Tipuric and did quite well. You see when Tipuric came on and had eight minutes on the pitch with POM and SOB and dominated them at the breakdown. Henry came on, took a couple of minutes to get to the pace of the match and Tipuric seemed less effective. Coinkidink naturally I'm sure.

Also POM came off it seems after missing a horrendous tackle when he was hiding out on the wing. Shame he didn't have the stomach for the fight. He was doing quite well up until then. I suppose it's just easier when your team is on the front foot. Shame he doesn't have the stones of SOB.

by Sin é Tue 05 Feb 2013, 6:13 pm

[quote="Hookisms and Hyperbole"]

Sin é wrote: What total bullsh**t about Earls. For the record - against England last 6Ns, Earls, partnered with D'Arcy (and little possession) managed to make 3 clean breaks & beat 3 defenders. He also didn't miss a tackle in the entire 6Ns and which resulted in a draw in Paris. Tuilagi & Barritt didn't manage any breaks and ran a combined 15 metres (compared to Earls 82m) when playing against Ireland.

Going on the 2nd half of the match against Wales, I think the coach got the selections right as Henry was on the pitch when both Tipuric & Warburton were there. How did you think that went?

Do correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't your states about turnstile Earls irrelevant? I just wondered as you quoted stats from an England match last year when I was talking about a match from last week. Unless you can see into the future. If so, I'm impressed. It makes you like a little Yoda, although more sense he makes. I'm pretty sure Earls was dreadful when he came on and cost the team seven valuable points. Sure he tried his little heart out god love him. What your states show is that he has got even less effective despite playing more. Deary deary me. Sad times.

I would consider that game as relevant as the centre partnership last season for England was Tuilagi & Barret (who could possibly be the centre partnership next Sunday) that Earls would have to defend against.

I've no doubt you would consider Earls performance dreadful, as like Henry, he came onto a team on the back foot and like Henry, it probably took him a few minutes to settle into an unfamiliar position (12). It might have been a different story if he had to just slot into 13. He sure did try his little heart out, because he made more tackles (9) than Henry (5) did who was on roughly the same time(Earls was on for 6 mins longer).

Indeed Henry was on the pitch with both Warburton and Tipuric and did quite well. You see when Tipuric came on and had eight minutes on the pitch with POM and SOB and dominated them at the breakdown. Henry came on, took a couple of minutes to get to the pace of the match and Tipuric seemed less effective. Coinkidink naturally I'm sure.

Eh, Wales scored 2 tries after POM went off - how do you quantify effectiveness?

Also POM came off it seems after missing a horrendous tackle when he was hiding out on the wing. Shame he didn't have the stomach for the fight. He was doing quite well up until then. I suppose it's just easier when your team is on the front foot. Shame he doesn't have the stones of SOB.

Coincidence I'd say that North or Cutbert weren't getting very far on their wings with POM roaming out there.

POM was taken off because he got a knock on the head. Henry may start next week because POM might have to be rested because he was concussed. Some might think that the reason Ireland were not on the front foot was because he wasn't on the pitch.

by Glas a du Tue 05 Feb 2013, 6:24 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
pbuk0 wrote:As a complete left field suggestion... what about Dan Cole as Captain??

Hard to know. Dont think I have ever heard him speak. Does he talk?

Yes. He sounds like Captain Birdseye without the cheery disposition.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 05 Feb 2013, 6:33 pm

Sin é wrote:
Coincidence I'd say that North or Cutbert weren't getting very far on their wings with POM roaming out there.

POM was taken off because he got a knock on the head. Henry may start next week because POM might have to be rested because he was concussed. Some might think that the reason Ireland were not on the front foot was because he wasn't on the pitch.

Not even POM's mum thinks that.

Unfortunately the rot had set into while POM was on the pitch while Tipuric ran rings around him. He missed his tackle and decided he'd have a rest. I don't blame him, I was tired watching him give POM a lesson. Best leave it to the big boys anyway. thumbsup

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 05 Feb 2013, 7:36 pm

Sin é wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
greytiger wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
rodders wrote:Heaslip was stand in captain in BOD and O'Connells absence, the question was did he do enough to retain it against a guy who is Irelands greatest ever player and captain? Not in my opinion.

Heaslip had a decent game on Saturday but BOD,Best, Sexton and Donnacha Ryan were the leaders out there imo. Heaslip is not captaincy material imo and I suspect BOD knows this too.

Whether he knows of Heaslips weakness or not is irrelevant. He should be throwing his support behind his captain 100%. BOD was MOTM on Saturday and he deserved it, he was again outstanding. He and Conrad Smith are the best 13s of our generation.

But he did come down a notch or 2 in my estimations by his rather cool dismissal of Heaslip as captain for the 6N. It seemed juvenile and to be honest if I were Heaslip I would be a wee bit wee'd off that BOD was being such a rabble-rouser.

Heaslip is a good player and is a natural successor to Ireland's captiancy. BOD should be guiding guys like Heaslip and or Sexton instead of being petulant.
+1 (normally I despise the plus one response but as this concurs with an observation I made earlier, I'll excuse myself)
+1

I'd like to hear what BOD did say (do you have a link). You have to realise that BOD & Heaslip would have been through a lot together and would be a typical Irish (slagging) way of dealing with the situation. For instance, some people might have misunderstood a tweet from Cian Healy that he was half glad Zebo didn't get to score that try after his flick because they would never hear the end of it from Zebo.

Sin, my +1 was referring to the fact that personally I was very busy also despising GT's shameless use of the "plus one response" Wink

by Glas a du Tue 05 Feb 2013, 7:38 pm

+1,000,000

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 05 Feb 2013, 7:40 pm

Typical Welsh show pony!

by Glas a du Tue 05 Feb 2013, 7:45 pm

Heaslip and Healy are Irish Headscratch

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 05 Feb 2013, 7:50 pm

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 05 Feb 2013, 8:09 pm

Glas a du wrote:Heaslip and Healy are Irish

According to Radge they are Glas. I think he's right though. Unless he was referring to Austin plus an another Englishman named Heaslip- in which case - +1.

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