v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Match 14

It’s Monday morning and that can only mean one thing…the return of the v2 G.O.A.T awards after the weekend break. Last week’s matches saw Wayne Gretzky, Pele, Bradman, Bjorn Borg, Steve Redgrave, Jesse Owen and despite the controversy Michael Jordon all progressing into the last 16.

We have three more round 2 matches left which will be played over the next two days, the first of which pits Olympic Champion Michael Phelps against Martina Navratilova.

Below are the previous round 1 articles written by forum members

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Michael Phelps- Swimming- Championed by 88chris05

There probably aren't enough superlatives in a dictionary to fully explain the greatness of Michael Phelps, or just how much he's achieved in his professional swimming career. I'll make my agenda clear early on - if Phelps doesn't make it to the advanced stages (let's just say, last eight or better) of this process, then I honestly would consider it a v2 travesty. If anyone reading this isn't a great fan of swimming, then don't fret - you don't need to be in order to gain an understanding of some sort of Phelps' accomplishments, as they're so glaring and awe-inspiring. So I'll do my best to give a reasonable explanation of them here.

Unless you paid absolutely no attention to the London 2012 Olympic Games, you'll know that, during the Games, Phelps became the most decorated Olympian of all time, with his London haul of four gold and two silver medals bringing his overall tally to twenty-two (a staggering eighteen gold, two silver and two bronze, spanning the Athens Games of 2004, the Beijing Games of 2008 and last year's London edition). This would be a damn good time for me to dispel and irksome myth, namely this idea I've seen thrown about that Phelps only became the most decorated Olympian of them all because there are "loads of medals in swimming" and / or because "it's easy to win them in that sport." First off, as I'll explain a little further down, there's nothing remotely easy about swimming and secondly, you'll find that, of the top ten most prolific Olympic medal winners in history, Phelps is the only swimmer amongst them. It should also be noted that Phelps is the owner of eleven individual golds in the Olympics (thirteen individual medals of all colours), more than any other man or woman in history - once again, this serves to dim the off-base talk suggesting that relay medals have given an over-inflated view of Phelps' achievements.

On top of that, there's thirty-four World Championship medals (a record), twenty-six of them being gold (a record), seven 'World Swimmer of the Year' titles (a record), a world record set at the tender age of fifteen years and nine months (a record), thirty-nine world records in all (a record), as well as becoming, in 2008, the only swimmer ever to win the coveted 'Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year' award.

Some CV: some athlete.

However, those numbers alone still can't fully convey how utterly dominant Phelps has been within his field, and nor can they give full context to his brilliance.

To me, even more than his medal collection, what sets Phelps apart is his unbelievable desire to test himself and take on new challengers, no matter how daunting they may be. By 2004, Phelps had already established himself as the most complete and best all-round swimmer on the planet at that time, with four gold medals and two silvers at the previous year's World Championships. By now, Phelps had established himself as being completely dominant in the 200m individual medley, 400m individual medley and also the 200m backstroke, and held the world record in all of these events. He was also the silver medal winner in the 100m butterfly. Let's remember here, before we get too far in, that all but a very select few swimmers spend their whole career concentrating and excelling in just one specialist event.

These were the events he'd been training for and participating in all of his career thus far, and it would have been easy for him to have stayed within these confines (although it was already one hell of a hectic schedule!) and remain undefeated throughout the 2004 Olympics. However, Phelps wanted to try and do the impossible; eclipse Mark Spitz's feat of seven golds in one Games in the 1972 Munich Olympics, and to do that meant adding the 200m freestyle to his schedule.

In that event, Phelps had to settle for a bronze medal, trailing in behind Australian legend Ian Thorpe and also Holland's Pieter Van Den Hoogenband. But the point is, a bronze in the 200m freestyle was still a remarkable feat - Thorpe and Van Den Hoogenband were the two preeminent freestylers of that era, and also the two fastest ever over that distance. Phelps, in comparison, had never even taken a stab at that discipline before Athens. It's worth noting that, after Phelps had dominated him at the 200m individual medley event at the 2003 World Championships, Thorpe never ventured in to one of Phelps' signature events again. However, the nineteen year old Phelps vowed to carry on until he became the world's best freestyler, to go along with being the world's best in the butterfly and medleys. Keep in mind that, at the time, most observers felt that this was a truly unreachable goal. Nevertheless, Phelps was the most successful athlete of the Games, narrowly falling short of Spitz's seven golds but still scooping up six golds (four of which came in individual events, equalling Spitz in that regard) and two bronzes.

His dominance in the butterly and medleys assured (he completed the 100m-200m double and the 200m-400m double in those events respectively in Athens), Phelps, good to his word, then set his sights on Thorpe's 200m freestyle world record (thought to be the best record in men's swimming at the time) of 1 minute 44.06 seconds, edging it out at the 2007 World Championships with a 1 minute 43.86 and then totally dismantling it with a 1 minute 42.96 clocking in winning the 200m freestyle gold at the 2008 Beijing Games.

I mean seriously, come on - he's not even meant to be a freestyler!

Almost as a bit of fun, Phelps even tried his hand at the backstroke in 2006, an event in which he was even less experienced and trained in than the freestyle. At the Pan Pacific championships that year, he won the silver medal in the 200m backstroke event. It was the only time he ever competed in backstroke at a major championship but, a year later, he showed his hand when he gave the discipline another whirl at the US Nationals; incredibly, he clocked the third fastest time ever recorded in the 200m backstroke, and went one better in the 100m, coming up with the second best time ever, just 0.03 seconds off the world record for the event. That a part-time (at best) backstroker could, almost at the drop of a hat, produce such performances in his weakest event, all while dominating the butterfly, medleys and freestyle (2007 had been the year in which Phelps scooped seven golds in seven events at the World Championships, lest we forget) is way beyond remarkable. I don't think there are sufficient words for it, in fact.

And then, of course, came the most successful Olympic campaign ever in Beijing in 2008, as Phelps took eight gold medals in eight events (seven of them in world record time, the other 'only' an Olympic record), eclipsing Spitz's aforementioned seven. His five individual golds at the meet (400m individual medley, 200m freestyle, 200m butterfly, 200m individual medley and 100m butterfly) also equaled the record for the most individual golds won in a single Olympics.

After the Games, a debate raged on about who was the stand out performer and / or biggest star of the Beijing Olympics - Phelps, or the incredible Jamaican track star Usain Bolt, who set world records in winning gold in the 100m, 200m and 4x100m sprints. Well, due to track and field's popularity and his telegenic personality (a contrast to the quiet, reserved Phelps), Bolt was the star of Beijing. But was he the greatest performer of the Games, as many claimed? Absolutely not. Phelps was. The variety of his schedule is scary. Ian Thorpe won nine Olympic medals, which is fantastic, of course. But all of them were in freestyle. Phelps' medals came in freestyle, butterfly and medley - to even compare, I honestly think that Bolt would have needed to add long jump to his arsenal and won the gold in that event, and / or perhaps a longer sprint such as the 400m.

After the eight golds of Beijing it was, naturally, impossible for Phelps to go beyond what he'd already done, however the medals continued to flow right up until his retirement after London 2012; five golds and one silver at the 2009 World Championships, four golds, two silvers and one bronze at the 2011 World Championships and then, to put the seal on his career, those four golds and two silvers in London.

Not only does Phelps boast unrivalled diversity and variety in the pool, then, but he also has insane fitness and unbelievable longevity to bolster his claim of being the greatest sportsperson of them all.

Take his Beijing feats, for example; to collect his eight gold medals, Phelps had to complete seventeen races in one week, what with the qualification rounds before the finals. While he was doing this across the past three Olympics, he often had rivals awaiting him near the end of the week - rivals who competed in just one specialty event and, having nothing like the work load of Phelps, would have been rubbing their hands together watching him fatigue himself. Milorad Cavic, a world champion over the 50m butterfly (and a former world record holder over the 100m distance) was awaiting Phelps in the 100m butterfy final in Beijing. How much fresher and less fatigued he must have been than Phelps at that stage was staggering - he'd dropped the 200m butterfly in order to maximise his chances of upsetting Phelps over the shorter course, and Phelps had already collected six gold medals that week. And yet, Phelps was still able to claim the gold in what was, without doubt, the greatest race I've ever seen in the pool.

Once more, to consistently be able to race across so many different disciplines for a week and then, at the end of it, be able to beat world-class specialists at their best event and after they've basically spent a week resting in comparison is a true mark of Phelps' ridiculous talent, and also his wonderful winning mentality.

What's more, swimming is a hard sport to stay at the top of, and seldom do its top practicioners produce anything like their best after their mid twenties. Before Phelps came along, no man in history had ever managed to win the same event at three successive Olympics in the pool, and many observers were wondering if the 'threepeat' was indeed possible at all, given how short a swimmer's peak is. Step forward Mr. Phelps, who made history at London 2012 by becoming the first man ever to do this, taking gold in the 200m individual medley (ahead of his great rival Ryan Lochte) to go along with the golds he took in that same event in 2004 and 2008. Not content with making history once, less than twenty-four hours later he was at it again, winning the final of the 100m butterfly (the last individual race of his career), turning a never done before threepeat in to a double threepeat.

Typical Phelps, really - nobody ever did it, and then he goes and does it twice at the same Olympics! It's just an outrageously fabulous achievement. And, for the third successive Olympics, Phelps took home more medals than any other athlete of the Games, regardless of discipline.

There have been some great all-rounders in sport; Gary Sobers in cricket, Frank Riijkaard in football - but none of them have been as complete across so many areas as Michael Phelps has been. If you wanted to be pedantic, then you could argue that Phelps lacks Usain Bolt's irrepressible star quality, or that he's not at the centre of the dreams of the world's youngsters the way that Lionel Messi is. But swimming is a sport which has grown immensely in participation levels, both amatuer and professional, in the past two decades, as well as being a truly demanding and punishing one in which incredible focus, dedication and a great deal of God-given talent are all neccessities. And Michael Phelps has been, to put it mildly, the Don Bradman of swimming. In many ways, in fact, you could argue that the 'Baltimore Bullett' has dominated his own field to an even greater extent than Bradman dominated his.

Not the greatest sporting personality, but as a sportsman in the purest form, and a true freak of nature, Phelps simply must be amongst the very, very elite of all time. Despite the length of this article, I still don't think I've done him full justice - that's how highly I think of Michael Phelps, unquestionably the greatest swimmer and most successful Olympian to ever walk the planet.

Tough draw for Martina. Has to be Phelps who should be there or thereabouts at the business end of the competition.

Tough draw for Phelps. Has to be Martina who should be there or thereabouts at the business end of the competition.

A coin flipper of a tie this one

Phelps...

JuliusHMarx wrote:Tough draw for Phelps. Has to be Martina who should be there or thereabouts at the business end of the competition.

My lawyer will be in contact shortly

Michael Jordan got through? What tripe. For this one though, Michael Phelps quite easily.

can't believe phelps is running away with this - definitely martina!

Phelps by a country mile, he's in my top 5 for the overall for sure.

ive just been voting but can someone tell me what is up about this rigged voting allegations???!!??!!

bored of it all. Far too long and protracted.

The coin came up heads for Phelps but a bit shocked to see the score (were we all flipping 2 headed coins?)

I don't see either as being the overall GOAT though, brilliant though Navratilova was I would say Graf just shades her as the female tennis GOAT and Federer beats both comfortable as the overall tennis goat.

Phelps spectacular for sure, all I would say about the great all round swimmers is that they have more options than almost any other sport to be able to contest multiple Olympic medals. 21 Olympic Golds is still a helluva haul though.

cherriesfna wrote:ive just been voting but can someone tell me what is up about this rigged voting allegations???!!??!!

Spaghetti Hans created lots of accounts to vote for Jordan, LeBron, and other of his favourite players.
He's been banned but Jordan still went through.

super_realist wrote:bored of it all. Far too long and protracted.

Oh, just stop whining.

It Must Be Love wrote:

super_realist wrote:bored of it all. Far too long and protracted.

Oh, just stop whining.

you know I'm right though.

Went for Phelps in the end. All those golds made my mind up.

It Must Be Love wrote:

cherriesfna wrote:ive just been voting but can someone tell me what is up about this rigged voting allegations???!!??!!

Spaghetti Hans created lots of accounts to vote for Jordan, LeBron, and other of his favourite players.
He's been banned but Jordan still went through.

What??? Jordan went through anyway? Oh well, that's the end of me voting.

super_realist wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

super_realist wrote:bored of it all. Far too long and protracted.

Oh, just stop whining.

you know I'm right though.

I think the ever decreasing post count is testament to that mate. That said I'm going to vote for Phelps in this as Martin had the unfair advantage of a male physique in the women's game.

navyblueshorts wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

cherriesfna wrote:ive just been voting but can someone tell me what is up about this rigged voting allegations???!!??!!

Spaghetti Hans created lots of accounts to vote for Jordan, LeBron, and other of his favourite players.
He's been banned but Jordan still went through.

What??? Jordan went through anyway? Oh well, that's the end of me voting.

There were three duplicate accounts created on the day of Jordan's match, therefore three votes were deducted from him, which was the fairest way, after that he was still two votes clear and progressed into the last 16.

Thing is with Navratilova she was a veritable chubster when she first came on the scene, took her quite a while so turn herself into the athlete that dominated womens tennis for so long, so I guess we have to give her credit for that as it wasnt just that she was blessed with a ripped physique.
That said its still a stroll for Phelps.
And yes, has all rather lost its momentum which is a shame. Should just have had groups of 4 all the way through with the winner only advancing. We'd be done by now probably.

I like this format

In the latter stages it'll be more exciting though.

MtotheC wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

cherriesfna wrote:ive just been voting but can someone tell me what is up about this rigged voting allegations???!!??!!

Spaghetti Hans created lots of accounts to vote for Jordan, LeBron, and other of his favourite players.
He's been banned but Jordan still went through.

What??? Jordan went through anyway? Oh well, that's the end of me voting.

There were three duplicate accounts created on the day of Jordan's match, therefore three votes were deducted from him, which was the fairest way, after that he was still two votes clear and progressed into the last 16.

It is mighty suspicious that Jordan won through even after the votes come off. I actually voted for him but at the time I did so there was a chasm between the two in SRR's favour.

Add to the fact LeBron James beat a field of well known British greats on a board with next to no basketball fans.

Not a criticism but I suggest a re vote or that they both progress given the fishy nature of that vote.

I agree, can we have a re-vote tomorrow?

As an addition.

It Must Be Love wrote:I agree, can we have a re-vote tomorrow?

As an addition.

Thirded. If that's a word!

I find 88 chris 05 ' s assertion that its not easier to win Olympic medals in swimming as opposed to most other sports somewhat mischevious if not misleading, and then he has the audacity to tell us how the previous holder of the most medals was Mark Spitz also a swimmer.

I just hope that Phelps doesnt go on to win this whole competition purely on the statistic of medals and World Championships when many other sportspeople have dominated in their sports but dont have the opportunity available to them to win Olympic medals and World Championships like the top International swimmer can

Then there are many other Sports that dont even go to the Olympics, and/or they can only compete for one World Championship title in a year.

I'm out of this progress, at midnight Robinson was 8 votes clear and there were 13 subsequent votes, the gap between the two was at one point 18 so it was a blatant stitch up as was James beating Khan. But I suppose having two basketball players advancing must be what the powers that be want but the whole process is tarnished beyond repair until something is done about it.

Or to put it another way, in the first 15 hours that the Robison/Jordan thread opened, Jordan got 39 votes, Then between hours 15 and 17 he suddenly picked up 15 votes (one of which was mine) What was more obvious to me was the fact that it was 3 in the morning UK time and hardly anyone was on the site.

To suggest that there were only 3 dodgy votes votes is downright naive.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I'm out of this progress, at midnight Robinson was 8 votes clear and there were 13 subsequent votes, the gap between the two was at one point 18 so it was a blatant stitch up as was James beating Khan. But I suppose having two basketball players advancing must be what the powers that be want but the whole process is tarnished beyond repair until something is done about it.

I'm inclined to agree on both points. I won't be voting in any more of these until both problem votes are addressed.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I find 88 chris 05 ' s assertion that its not easier to win Olympic medals in swimming as opposed to most other sports somewhat mischevious if not misleading, and then he has the audacity to tell us how the previous holder of the most medals was Mark Spitz also a swimmer.

I just hope that Phelps doesnt go on to win this whole competition purely on the statistic of medals and World Championships when many other sportspeople have dominated in their sports but dont have the opportunity available to them to win Olympic medals and World Championships like the top International swimmer can

Then there are many other Sports that dont even go to the Olympics, and/or they can only compete for one World Championship title in a year.

No, Laurie.

If you look, you'll see that I simply pointed out that you can't brush off or downplay Phelps' record of Olympic medals - be they gold or any other colour - on the basis of him being a swimmer, as he is the only swimmer within the top ten most prolific Olympic medal winners of all time. Never did I imply that being such an incredible swimmer helped his chances of getting this record; instead, I simply pointed out that it's not the ONLY reason he owns it, which is a theory spouted by some of the less intelligent posters I've seen. Incidentally, Spitz's record was a single-Games one, not an all-time one.

Moreover, I also stated that there are reasons outside of the pure statistics and medals which lead me to rank Phelps so high as an elite athlete. Not going to go over that ground again here, but if you read the article you'll find them for yourself.

Finally, I'm sure we have enough fair and reasoned posters on here who will be able to make up their own mind and won't simply think, "Right, most medals = greatest." I'm sure there are others, like me, who think that Phelps deserves to be a serious, serious contender to win this whole thing outright, but I'm also confident that they'll have come to those conclusions thanks to their own knowledge, opinions and beliefs. Just as Roger Federer's piece points out that he has won more singles Grand Slams than any other male player, or just as Wayne Gretzky's points out that he leads the all-time NHL points scoring chart, then it's perfectly reasonable to highlight the fact that Phelps is the most successful and decorated Olympian of all time, given that it's such a staggering achievement.

Not sure how "audacious" any of the above is, but hope it's been cleared up for you.

I hardly think the poll is rigged in any sports favour , in fact the only one that was clearly way over represented was boxing IMO.

So it's purely coincidental that Khan and Robinson both held huge leads which were overturned in the middle of the night up against a pair of basketball players.

So you think the original amount of boxing entrants was fair ?
I think the right guy went through personally. I'm not privy to the moderators intel so Im happy to accept their decision. The last thing this process needs is another vote.

88Chris05

The point you seem to be missing/dismissing is that it is harder for competitors in most other Olympic sports to harvest the volume of medals that swimmers can..

Is Phelps the most successful and decorated swimming Olympian of all time?... Yes.

Is Phelps the most successful Olympian of all time?... No.


Whether it be freestyle, butterfly or medley, they are just three different ways of imitating a fish.

I'm finding the debate about whether the voting has been compromised far more interesting than the debate about who is sport's GOAT and certainly more interesting than who is greater between Phelps and Martin.

If some wish to be so naive then that's there choice.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I'm out of this progress, at midnight Robinson was 8 votes clear and there were 13 subsequent votes, the gap between the two was at one point 18 so it was a blatant stitch up as was James beating Khan. But I suppose having two basketball players advancing must be what the powers that be want but the whole process is tarnished beyond repair until something is done about it.

Are these the same 'powers that be' that have spent hours organising, posting, messaging, collating articles, trying to raise interest across the site and posting up threads everyday for a month? So these 'powers that be' as you put it would invest all this time, energy and effort to rig the poll so a basketball player could make the final 16???? Have you heard yourself?

Believe it or not this competition is run for the enjoyment of the forum users and to continue to make v2 a place for great debate no other reason.

In regards to the voting issues that is prompting some of you to abstain from the completion an IP address search was carried out on the day and only three matches were identified, I really don't understand what you expect? We are not MI5 and quite frankly the fairest course of action was taken, I would suggest that you don't let the actions of a WUM affect your enjoyment in the GOAT and enjoy it for what it is an excellent way to debate who's the greatest of all time is and why.

m to the c- These guys are being proper humbugs. Forget about dem!

Well it does effect it when the GOAT has been ruled out because of a blatant stitch up, how do you fathom Jordan got 15 votes in a two hour period after midnight and Robinson got none? Same with Khan.

So just that we're clear on this, what exactly are you suggesting? And who are you accusing? Because I can categorically state that I run this comp because I enjoy it and want you guys to as well, I can't control the voting or wum's voting in a WUM way!

What's wrong with a revote anyway? Just add it on tomorrow next to the other one that's happening. Is it not also odd how the Jordan/SRR vote got 101 total votes when the other voting contests have struggled to get above 85?

Too just have a replay now stuffs up all the work M to C has done thus far, I too would like to have seen Kelly Slater and Khan in the mix but that just is not now going to happen.

next time we do this we will all be wiser.

MtotheC, I do like this competition and all credit should go to you and the admin team for running this

However both Jordan and LeBron got a massive number (was it 20 or something?) votes between 3am and 4am on their respective nights. SH could have easily changed his IP address, or simply gone to another location, it really is that simple for him.
Hence I think a Jordan re-vote is only fair tomorrow.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
88Chris05

The point you seem to be missing/dismissing is that it is harder for competitors in most other Olympic sports to harvest the volume of medals that swimmers can..

Nope, not doing that at all, hence why Phelps' haul of Olympic medals is only a part of why I think of Phelps so highly. Again, I'll spell it out for you; I have never denied that being a swimmer does offer the conceivability of more Olympic medals than many other disciplines at the Games. However, there have been both men and women swimming at the Games for over one hundred years, and none of them have managed to do what Phelps has done in his career. None have even come close, in fact. Yes, more medals were available to Phelps than others, but that doesn't mean that it didn't take a ludicrous amount of talent, dedication, character, hard work, focus and ambition to win them.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Is Phelps the most successful and decorated swimming Olympian of all time?... Yes.

Is Phelps the most successful Olympian of all time?... No.

Depends on your definition of 'successful', I imagine. Clearly, winning more than anyone else in competition doesn't equate to Olympic success for you, so what does? Personally, I think that winning is the very epitome of success in an Olympic context, hence referring to Phelps as the most successful Olympian of all time is perfectly valid, I think. You'll note that I haven't called Phelps the greatest Olympian, not once. He may well be, but there is never going to be any consensus on that matter. However, I do feel a lot more comfortable saying he's the most successful.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Whether it be freestyle, butterfly or medley, they are just three different ways of imitating a fish.

Clearly you're not a fan of swimming as a sport / spectacle. Fair enough, we all have our own tastes. But, if we try to be all clever about it, we could just as easily downplay the merits of any other sport in such a way - it'd be easy to say that golf is "only" hitting a ball with a stick, or that Formula One is "just" driving a car.

Anyway, I can't spell my points out any clearer than that and I've already gone to lengths to explain why I consider Phelps such a sporting giant and also why some of the criticisms often thrown at his achievements don't really stack up in my eyes. Back to the voting.

Despite SRRs exclusion I must agree that Jahangirs exclusion really damaged the credibility of the exercise. He was so far ahead of his peers it was frightening, how lebron can even come close is something to be investigated. I do however realise that you can only discount the ones you are sure of, but the grumbling is justified.

88Chris

So using your criteria, you would dismiss any chance of someone like Birgit Fischer being considered the most successful Olympian even though she was an Olympic Champion for a longer span of time than Phelps?

You probably wouldnt consider her worthy of being included in this discussion.

Herman is that you? Chris stop using flowery language it makes you a target.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
88Chris

So using your criteria, you would dismiss any chance of someone like Birgit Fischer being considered the most successful Olympian even though she was an Olympic Champion for a longer span of time than Phelps?

You probably wouldnt consider her worthy of being included in this discussion.

Has a 56 year old man got nothing better to do than keep twisting other people's words?

I said that 'most successful' is open to personal definition, quite clearly. I said that I (I, I, I) felt comfortable calling Phelps the most successful Olympian. I said that calling Phelps the most successful Olympian was valid, not fact.

Please don't tell me who I would and wouldn't consider a worthy candidate. Us on the mod / admin teams spent a long time finalising this list, trying to make it so that everyone would be happy with it or something close to happy, and a lot of time has gone in to the write ups and articles. Just because someone didn't make the final 64 doesn't mean that anyone is ignorant to them. Fischer was considered but didn't quite make the cut, as didn't Gail Devers, Carolina Kluft, Jacques Kallis, Dawn Fraser, Jim Thorpe, Lester Piggott and a host of other fine sportspeople.

Miserable sods like you, who'd rather quibble the 64, bemoan the fact that a favourite of theres has gone out and generally complain about the whole process and bleat on about what a big waste of time it is and how it's lacking in credibility, rather than just taking it for what it is and giving their reasons for voting how they did, have done far more damage to this process than anyone else, ironically enough.

88Chris05 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
88Chris

So using your criteria, you would dismiss any chance of someone like Birgit Fischer being considered the most successful Olympian even though she was an Olympic Champion for a longer span of time than Phelps?

You probably wouldnt consider her worthy of being included in this discussion.

Has a 56 year old man got nothing better to do than keep twisting other people's words?

I said that 'most successful' is open to personal definition, quite clearly. I said that I (I, I, I) felt comfortable calling Phelps the most successful Olympian. I said that calling Phelps the most successful Olympian was valid, not fact.

Please don't tell me who I would and wouldn't consider a worthy candidate. Us on the mod / admin teams spent a long time finalising this list, trying to make it so that everyone would be happy with it or something close to happy, and a lot of time has gone in to the write ups and articles. Just because someone didn't make the final 64 doesn't mean that anyone is ignorant to them. Fischer was considered but didn't quite make the cut, as didn't Gail Devers, Carolina Kluft, Jacques Kallis, Dawn Fraser, Jim Thorpe, Lester Piggott and a host of other fine sportspeople.

Miserable sods like you, who'd rather quibble the 64, bemoan the fact that a favourite of theres has gone out and generally complain about the whole process and bleat on about what a big waste of time it is and how it's lacking in credibility, rather than just taking it for what it is and giving their reasons for voting how they did, have done far more damage to this process than anyone else, ironically enough.

So Miserable sods in their 50s arent entitled to an opinion?

He's said no such thing - he gave his own opinion then you accused him of discounting everyone else. I dont think phelps is the greatest of all time but wouldn't accuse anyone who did of an agenda. There is ample evidence to support that view just as there is evidence to support Khan or Ali Or Jordan. Dont know why you've taken it so personally, if you think otherwise why dont you put together a case for another, maybe someone in the rest of the oturny.

All these swimming medals are slightly misleading I think. Bolt could probably run the 100m backwards the fastest, side ways, with an egg and spoon etc...

What is the point if butterfly stoke when someone can turn up and beat you doing a proper stroke.

Don't know much about the other bird, but voted for her anyway because I think the amount of medals in swimming is ridiculous.

That said, a woman could never win a greatest sports person award because men are better .