"Shot" Players on the International Stage

In boxing a fighter is often referred to as "shot" when he is but a shell of his former self, just a name from the past.

England's squad is much younger now than it has been in more recent times; who remembers the so-called Dad's Army from 2007? Some rugby players have been guilty of playing on way past their primes yet were often picked by their coaches based on previous qualities. Both Woodward & Johnson have been guilty of this both on the 05 Lions tour and in the 2011 RWC amongst others.

Players that easily spring to mind are:

Tindall
Moody (hardly surprising given the knocks he'd taken over the years)
Andy Farrell was shot after his years in League
Wilkinson at the 2011 RWC (although since dropping the Internationals he's on great form again)
Jason White in his last few games for Scotland in 2009.

On the 05 Lions tour Malcolm O'Kelly, Neil Back & Richard Hill were well past their primes but still toured.

Some players are the exception to the rule & keep going, their form improving as they get older, such as Simon Shaw & Mark Regan, who had a break of almost 3 years between caps before returning for a swansong at the 07 World Cup, but there are so many that carry on longer than they really should, believing their 35 year old body is better than when it was 20.

Who is on your list who went on too long?

Ok, I'll say it to get it out of the way...

O, wait for it....................... Gara!

John Smit, or as he was called in the latter stages of his career, "the man who ate John Smit".

Gordon darcy,Matt Stevens spring to mind.will greenwood also toured in '05(I think).

Didn't Richard Hill battle back from his initial career threatening injury only for it to happen again during the first test, and have that finish him as an international player? Think your being a little harsh on that one. Will Greenwood should have been mentioned for the 05 Lions though.

The obvious one from the weekend was of course ROG. Never a great 10 but damn good at what he did only for most of us to currently remember him as someone now who couldn't turn a game tailor made for him to his teams advantage. A bit sad really, especially if the reports are true that he wanted to quit after the WC. I feel he deserved better and hope if he does get selected for the next game that he produces a decent vintage ROG display and goes out on a high.

Lawrence Dallaglio for me should never have come back to play for England, think he was found out at the very top level when he returned in 2007 and it tarnished my memory of his playing prowess somewhat.

Thought the last couple of times I saw him for France that Jauzion he looked very slow, which was a shame as he is one of my favorite centers of all time.

If I wanted to wind people up I would say Shane Williams but thinking about I think he actually got out at the right time. He was certainly on the downhill slopes when he called it a day but I still remember him for being an amazing winger who defied the odds.

Although never the greatest Dennis Hickie surprised me when he quit when he did, thought he would have had another couple of seasons at European level left in him at least.

Nathen Hines always seemed to me another who got better as he got older.

Good idea for a thread by the way.

Good to see no Kiwis on the list so far- is inconsistent with our selection policy...oooh hang on...

Ali Williams.

Last chance saloon with the Blues Ali...by the time France rolls around...where will you be?

I saw dayglo today in london.you wouldn't say that to his face,more muscle on his head than my entire body.

Taylorman wrote:Good to see no Kiwis on the list...

I thought New Zealanders generally saw the 1991 World Cup campaign as a bridge too far for some.

Irish wing and business magnate Tony O'Reilly turned out for his country at Twickenham in 1970 after an absence of six years. He was 34 which is probably about 52 in today's reckoning. England won. Famously, his selection denied Frank O'Driscoll (aka the BODfather) his only chance of a cap.

Brad Thorn is 38 this year and still winning titles- ie with Leinster- so its not necessarily an age thing. Nothing suggested his form was off when he 'retired' from the AB's after the WCup and I for one would rather have him there than Ali G against France thats for sure- even if Thorn did debut for the Brisbane Bronco's in 1994 when James O'Connor was living there at...4 years old...

In a lot of cases it is a matter of opinion apparently at 30 your past it now.Most of Nz`s top players have apparently no chance of making RWC 2015.
Just on 2 years away.Cory jane,Nonu,Conrad Smith,Woodcock,McCaw,Dan Carter,Hore,Mealamu,etc.1991 and 1998 rings loud and clear presumably.
Ali Williams?two Achilles tendon ops few come back from that ask Juan Smith.
What of those who burst on the scene for a year then disappear Hosae Gear,Luke Mcalister,isaac Ross,Jason Eaton,Brendon Leonard etc.

Taylorman wrote:...so its not necessarily an age thing....

This. I don't think it's a case of being 'shot'; players peak at different times depending on their position to a small extent, but most times not. Or players go through peaks & troughs.

Wilko - had a sh1te 2011 RWC, has since been on the best form of his life, and although he still tackles like a beast he's actually smart enough now, after learning the hardway, that he can't meet no.'s 1-8 head on each and everytime and not be injured.
Sheridan - still scrummaging with the best of them.
Shaw - Obviously life wouldn't allow him get old
N Easter - Looking better now than ever, carrying like a monster, level headed in leadership
Kohn - @31 just got his first call up (ok, that may be due to injury) but he's certainly in the best form of his career, and made enough of a splash to be recognised.

I've seen a lot of speculation that BOD is getting past it. I don't agree, he's an older more wily dog these days, but no less dangerous coming up mid-30's. Less head strong, more savvy.

BOD is getting past it, not because he cant perform; when fully fit he is still, by some distance, the best 13 in the NH but his body is giving up and he will not be at this level much longer

Several recent Scotland backs have appeared to be 'shot' even at the start of their international careers never mind the end.

Ronan O'Gara for sure. He looks shot at Rabo league level let alone international. Reflexes are gone, descision making is all over the place and he hasn't got the range in his kicks any more. He was shambolic against England.

O'Driscoll's body is falling apart for sure and his legs have gone but he still seems capable of producing big plays, be it a magic piece of skill, a big hit or stealing the ball on the deck. The big challenge in terms of how long he can last is avoiding injury....

Gethin Jenkins doesn't look the player he was for Wales.

I think Ben Cohen was one who just looked like he hated walking on to a rugby field in the end...

Agree with quite a few that have been named

Dallaglio in the RWC 07 was not even a pale imitation of the player of 03. Slower, far less powerful and appearing also to have lost his 'nous'

ROG - Was never the best ball carrier and distributor, but you knew he'd keep you pinned back in the corners and kick most of his goals, which in conditions like the England match would usually be enough to gain Ireland the win. On Sunday he wasn't even able to make decent touch kicks from penalties, never mind when under pressure in open play.

Not sure if Gethin's shot or simply unfit at the moment.

BOD is close to being done physically - pace has gone and to compensate he's playing more like a flanker which he does very well but which also means he is picking up injuries. Hopefully he can hold on long enough to have a final successful Lions tour and then call it a day.

15 - JPR
14 - Banahan
13 - Jamie Noon
12 - Tindall
11 - Tony Stanger
10 - OGara
9 - Gareth Cooper
8 - Butler
7 - DayGlo
6 - Moody
5 - POC
4 - Borthwick
3 - Ben Evans
2 - M Rees
1 - Stevens

MacKnocked-on wrote:Several recent Scotland backs have appeared to be 'shot' even at the start of their international careers never mind the end.

Oh yes, but thankfully most of them have been put out to pasture now - Danielli, Walker, Morrison, Southwell, Lawson, Jones, Parks, Godman and (with respect) Paterson.

In Thom Evans' case, "put out to stud" would be a more accurate description, the lucky fecker.

Thom Evans? not any more apparently. Single and unemployed

Mark Cecillon

I think Paterson improved with Age, after he familiarised himself with full back he became a very good player.

Agreed on Paterson. I think he retired at about the right time.

Scotland haven't been too bad in this regard, Jason White being moved to lock was a failure, he just couldn't keep up with the game after so many injuries, but generally we haven't stuck with good players long after their sell by date.

Our issue has been using players who never had it in the first place!

I was recently starting to think Ryan Jones, but he seems to have hit form again.

From an England perspective - Worsley and Moody probably played on passed their best.

RubyGuby wrote:Mark Cecillon

Ha ha very un-pc. He wasnt shot though, he shot his wife.

GunsGerms wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Mark Cecillon

Ha ha very un-pc. He wasnt shot though, he shot his wife.

You don't say!

emack2 wrote:In a lot of cases it is a matter of opinion apparently at 30 your past it now.Most of Nz`s top players have apparently no chance of making RWC 2015.
Just on 2 years away.Cory jane,Nonu,Conrad Smith,Woodcock,McCaw,Dan Carter,Hore,Mealamu,etc.1991 and 1998 rings loud and clear presumably.
Ali Williams?two Achilles tendon ops few come back from that ask Juan Smith.
What of those who burst on the scene for a year then disappear Hosae Gear,Luke Mcalister,isaac Ross,Jason Eaton,Brendon Leonard etc.

Yeah agree Alan. We are staring down at a 91 again with this side.

I dont believe Mccaw dc Smith nonu will play. For one its a bridge too far. 3 world cups is too much and the sxv is going to throw up younger and faster players. Mccaw needing to take a rest from the game to play the game is an ominous sign, no matter how bullet proof he is. DC has never figured strongly in cups so we arent missing anything there anyway.

I expect the highlanders to lead the sxv at the start the tail off again at the business end and no reason Thorn wont get a start against France this year if he wants it.

In terms of players who had an worldclass reputation but then became terrible and were picked purely on their reputation?

There are not that many, I can't really think of any from Wales in recent times (although Gethin Jenkins may be becoming one)

Michilak looks pretty much past it

wales606 wrote:In terms of players who had an worldclass reputation but then became terrible and were picked purely on their reputation?

There are not that many, I can't really think of any from Wales in recent times (although Gethin Jenkins may be becoming one)

Wilko was one in 2011. Smit was definitely keeping a better DuPlessis off the park for too long.
M Steyn as well in 2012 selected too many times while his strongpoint- goalkicking, was below par.

My comment was a bit tongue in cheek because I don`t think a player is finished at 30.I am very much a one game at a time man I think with there current squad NZ were.Perhaps lucky that Aus,and SA were under strength
the corollary of that is long term perhaps they are in a better position.
RWCs as is well known mean nothing to me NZ 2015 don`t think they will get past SF stage.
IF RWCs meant anything to me OZ would be a pretty good bet they are relatively young and at last have some goalkickers.

westisbest wrote:Michilak looks pretty much past it

Didn't he helm France to a thrashing of Australia with a master-class of modern fly-half play just 3 months ago?

Dont know. Didnt watch it.

Did see the game last week and he was pish poor.