Nadal has a shockingly self-serving agenda

First topic message reminder :

He wanted two-year rankings.

He has recently opposed the 25 second rule, on very honest terms (I can't play like that).

Now he wants fewer hard court events, wrongly arguing they shorten careers. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/21436925

I don't know about others, but this really tarnishes his image in my opinion. No wonder he ended up off the Council. I accept he says he won't see it in his career, but that might not be his belief.
The facts go against him. As we know, there are more old players at the top of the game than at any time since the early 70's, I think, so where's this big need for fewer hard courts?

He can have his opinions, that's fine, but he'd come across more credibly if some of them were not in his interest.

I quoted this on another thread, but will quote it here again regarding the Clay courts (specifically at RG).

Most courts at Roland Garros are constructed of several layers of materials, about three feet deep. Most of that is filled with small stones topped with smaller gravel. (The two main show courts and three other courts are built on slabs of concrete, topped with a thick layer of sand.) The base is topped with a six-inch layer of volcanic rock and three inches of porous limestone.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/sports/tennis/30clay.html?_r=1&

Before someone points it out, I do understand that players' feet do not directly contact the concrete.

Indeed. We're all driven by the Selfish Gene.
These are world class competitors we're talking about here...they fight to the metaphorical death out there on court, driven madly by their own desire to win. Tennis is a very singular pursuit out of all sports...we then act all surprised when they reflect that one-sided determination and protectionism in interviews. Their will to win comes at a cost often...it can blind them to the needs of others. All the top guys are in it for themselves, they've trained their whole lives to be the one standing at the top of the podium...they're not Mother Theresa's, nor should be expected to be. However, in the scheme of things Nadal has hardly committed a crime here...he just has the cojones to express what many other players would say in a similar position.

Sometimes, we get too wrapped up in sporting personalities off court. Do we seek to know the ins and outs of every musician, or actor, etc? By and large we judge how successful they are by what they do at work. They are meant to be good at what they do, not diplomacy, politics or speeches outside work. Most of them don't give two hoots what others think of them outside work either...as Cantona said "When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea". The media, and many armchair followers, hang on their every word and expect them to be as good off-court as on-court but forget the externalisation of their will to win doesn't always stop at the locker room.

Base layer might affect speed but its the very top layer that defines how the surface actually performs. Clay and grass allow players to slide...that's the critical aspect in their injury-saving properties. Clay as a surface is actually quite hard to jump up and down on,,,,not much give at all...its the top dressing that allows sliding so joints stop moving more smoothly through even deceleration. HCs don't allow that.

Nadal may be self-serving but that doesnt make him wrong.

There was about 2,5 more unforced errors than winners in the AO final, on a faster court. Perhaps the 25s rule is already ruining quality? Doubt it, but lets not just dissmiss that out of hand.

As for the two-year ranking system. Well I get where Nadal is coming from, he could probably have avoided injuries if it was in place by skipping some mandatory HC MS1000s without fearing punishment. But the current 12-month cycle creates amazing runs. Remember JMDPs "0 to 60" rise in 2008?

It Must Be Love wrote:???
If clay courts were all changed to slow 'purple clay' (perhaps a new Tiriac idea?), which all caused injury to the body, and this surface was used throughout the ATP tour, wouldn't Murray be right to speak out against it?
As for your 'nothing is going to change, so why even go there?' line, that's not what Nelson Mandela thought did he.

Please! If Rafa is so noble, how come this didn't come up in 2009/10?

He may have an argument, it's just here, his timing is all over the place

lydian wrote:Base layer might affect speed but its the very top layer that defines how the surface actually performs. Clay and grass allow players to slide...that's the critical aspect in their injury-saving properties. Clay as a surface is actually quite hard to jump up and down on,,,,not much give at all...its the top dressing that allows sliding so joints stop moving more smoothly through even deceleration. HCs don't allow that.

Djokovic has perfected the art of HC sliding.

kingraf wrote:Well I get where Nadal is coming from, he could probably have avoided injuries if it was in place by skipping some mandatory HC MS1000s without fearing punishment.

Respectfully, I disagree. Look at this - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Rafael-Nadal.aspx?t=pa&y=2004&m=s&e=0#

30-17 in 2004.

7 tournaments on Clay, 11 on HC, 0 on Grass, 4 on Carpet. He had a stress fracture, IIRC, in 2004 and missed RG. Managing a calendar should have been the priority. What was the need to play HC, when the foot issue was known, and, playing RG was important.

banbrotam wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:???
If clay courts were all changed to slow 'purple clay' (perhaps a new Tiriac idea?), which all caused injury to the body, and this surface was used throughout the ATP tour, wouldn't Murray be right to speak out against it?
As for your 'nothing is going to change, so why even go there?' line, that's not what Nelson Mandela thought did he.

Please! If Rafa is so noble, how come this didn't come up in 2009/10?

He may have an argument, it's just here, his timing is all over the place

Ummm... don't know how to put this to you Banb, but ironically he did come up with this in 2009/2010.
After the AO 2009 in-fact, Lydian has posted a link to the interview on this very thread where he speaks about this.

Good comparison with Mandela, IMBL.

Mandela from 1964-1990 had the top ranking, about 26 years.

PS: Can you tell me what years Nadal was in the PC and was the Vice President?

Nadal has been saying this for some time about the hard court emphasis in the schedule. I would support an decrease on the emphasis on hardcourts. But I also think he is self interested and so what if he is. You have to look for yourself and speak up. On this issue he is right and we don't need intricate studies to tell us that running on dirt and grass is better for you than running on concrete. But he is dead wrong on the 25 second rule and on the two year rankings. I think that is a bizarre ranking system for a sport organized on yearly calendar. All his suggestions are things that he would like to see happen. Are we surprised that he didn't suggest things that would go against his interest? And there is an argument that healthier stars is something that the fans would like.

@SoCal... managing one's calendar is not an ATP responsibility, is it?

It Must Be Love wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:???
If clay courts were all changed to slow 'purple clay' (perhaps a new Tiriac idea?), which all caused injury to the body, and this surface was used throughout the ATP tour, wouldn't Murray be right to speak out against it?
As for your 'nothing is going to change, so why even go there?' line, that's not what Nelson Mandela thought did he.

Please! If Rafa is so noble, how come this didn't come up in 2009/10?

He may have an argument, it's just here, his timing is all over the place

Ummm... don't know how to put this to you Banb, but ironically he did come up with this in 2009/2010.
After the AO 2009 in-fact, Lydian has posted a link to the interview on this very thread where he speaks about this.

What? Just after his Aus 09' win or just after his US Open 10' win? - I think I know the answer and I think you know exactly what I mean. Why bring this up now? Simples! He knows his knees will not withstand the vigors of the hard courts - so let's have a plea and maybe Santa Claus will deliver a programme which swaps the current Clay / Hard Court ratio's

laverfan wrote:@SoCal... managing one's calendar is not an ATP responsibility, is it?

No I have been saying for years nadal should be playing the golden swing and instead he would go to Dubai for the payday. He could have reduced his own hardcourt schedule by one month a year for the last 5 or six years by skipping Dubai and practicing for Dubai by just going to Latin america

banbrotam wrote:........................................................................................................................................................................................................................
What? Just after his Aus 09' win or just after his US Open 10' win? - I think I know the answer and I think you know exactly what I mean. Why bring this up now? Simples! He knows his knees will not withstand the vigors of the hard courts - so let's have a plea and maybe Santa Claus will deliver a programme which swaps the current Clay / Hard Court ratio's

So... basically ..... a recalibration of the calendar surface-split ratio so that the season is tailored directly to Nadal's personal preference and style of play ? ....

And would we then revert to the current calendar as soon as he has retired...?

socal1976 wrote:

laverfan wrote:@SoCal... managing one's calendar is not an ATP responsibility, is it?

No I have been saying for years nadal should be playing the golden swing and instead he would go to Dubai for the payday.

Greed for moolah, dear SoCal, sheer greed. Thailand anyone?

socal1976 wrote:He could have reduced his own hardcourt schedule by one month a year for the last 5 or six years by skipping Dubai and practicing for Dubai by just going to Latin america

banbrotam wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:???
If clay courts were all changed to slow 'purple clay' (perhaps a new Tiriac idea?), which all caused injury to the body, and this surface was used throughout the ATP tour, wouldn't Murray be right to speak out against it?
As for your 'nothing is going to change, so why even go there?' line, that's not what Nelson Mandela thought did he.

Please! If Rafa is so noble, how come this didn't come up in 2009/10?

He may have an argument, it's just here, his timing is all over the place

Ummm... don't know how to put this to you Banb, but ironically he did come up with this in 2009/2010.
After the AO 2009 in-fact, Lydian has posted a link to the interview on this very thread where he speaks about this.

What? Just after his Aus 09' win or just after his US Open 10' win? - I think I know the answer and I think you know exactly what I mean. Why bring this up now? Simples! He knows his knees will not withstand the vigors of the hard courts - so let's have a plea and maybe Santa Claus will deliver a programme which swaps the current Clay / Hard Court ratio's

What?
You're rapidly back-tracking.
First you posted that Nadal's timing was suspicious as he was not talking about it in 2009/2010. Then I showed he did talk about it, giving the example of 2009 after AO. Then you randomly indicated that this is due to the fact that he won the event (as you also talked about USO 2010), which frankly makes no sense as Nadal would be less likely to talk about the negative impact of hard court over-use just after he's won a hard court slam?
He knows fully well that the ATP can't immediately rip up the concrete surfaces and replace them with clay, however after 3-4 years after the contracts are renegotiated with the tournaments some changes can be made- by that time it won't even make a difference to Nadal.
If Federer/ Murray had said the same thing, you'd be lauding them for speaking up for the health of the current and future tour; and rightly so.

It Must Be Love wrote:He knows fully well that the ATP can't immediately rip up the concrete surfaces and replace them with clay, however after 3-4 years after the contracts are renegotiated with the tournaments some changes can be made- by that time it won't even make a difference to Nadal.

1. Why make any changes, if it takes 3-4 years, and more importantly, the rest of the ATP has not asked for similar changes, for example, the Players Council?

2. There are many players who play specific tournaments and may have long-term contracts, for example, Federer has one with Halle.

It Must Be Love wrote:If Federer/ Murray had said the same thing, you'd be lauding them for speaking up for the health of the current and future tour; and rightly so.

Read SoCal's post... ( https://www.606v2.com/t40605p100-nadal-has-a-shockingly-self-serving-agenda#1859281 )

Nadal has been saying this for some time about the hard court emphasis in the schedule. I would support an decrease on the emphasis on hardcourts. But I also think he is self interested and so what if he is. You have to look for yourself and speak up. On this issue he is right and we don't need intricate studies to tell us that running on dirt and grass is better for you than running on concrete. But he is dead wrong on the 25 second rule and on the two year rankings. I think that is a bizarre ranking system for a sport organized on yearly calendar. All his suggestions are things that he would like to see happen. Are we surprised that he didn't suggest things that would go against his interest? And there is an argument that healthier stars is something that the fans would like.

I quoted the whole thing to make sure there are no accusations of quoting out of context.

Healthier stars can also be achieved by balancing court speeds and allowing players the choice of a schedule. If they want to play on Clay, there are enough tournaments to earn a living, as there are on HC. Just that a player may not get into very high rankings and may also complain that the number of tournaments is not enough to make a living, because there is less money to be made if such a player keeps exiting in the first round of each and every clay toruney, or HC tourney, or Grass.

Here is a list of available Clay ones... (I will leave it as an exercise for you figure out who is the last player to play ALL 23 Clay tournaments).

Slam - RG
Masters - Madrid, MC, Rome
ATP 500 - Acapulco, Barcelona, Hamburg
ATP 250 - Bastad, Bogota, Bucharest, Buenos Aires, Casablanca, Dusseldorf (Team), Estoril, Gstaad, Houston, Kitzbuhel, Munich, Nice, Sao Paulo, Stuttgart, Umag, Vina del Mar

Total - 23 Tournaments

Let us take Nadal as an example for number of tournaments...

Tournaments played on Clay

2002 - 11
2003 - 9
2004 - 7
2005 - 11
2006 - 5
2007 - 6
2008 - 6
2009 - 7
2010 - 4
2011 - 7
2012 - 5

(Second part of the exercise for you to find the maximum number of Tournaments that he has played in a given calendar year. Perhaps SoCal can provide some assistance ).


Hard ...

WTF - Barclays London
Slams - Australian Open, US Open
Masters - Cincinnati, Indian Wells, Miami, Montreal, Paris, Shanghai
ATP 500 - Basel, Beijing, Dubai, Hamburg, Memphis, Rotterdam, Tokyo, Valencia, Washington
ATP 250 - Atlanta, Auckland, Bangkok, Brisbane, Chennai, Delray Beach, Doha, Kuala Lumpur, Marseille, Metz, Montpellier, Moscow, San Jose, St. Petersburg, Stockholm, Sydney, Vienna, Winston-Salem, Zagreb

Total 36 7 Tournaments

Grass...

Slam - Wimbledon
ATP 250 - Eastbourne, Halle, London-Queens, Newport, 's-Hertogenbosch

Total 6 Tournaments

List source is - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tournaments/Tournament-Landing.aspx

E&OE

PS: A modified version of this is posted on another forum.

Nice work LF. But at the higher level....500/Masters/slams/WTF you get (the top guys don't play many 250s)

Clay: 7 events (6,500 pts on offer)
Hard: 18 events (16,000 pts on offer)
Grass: 1 event (2,000 pts on offer)

That shows the bias to hard court.
Grass coverage is woeful. Too expensive to maintain, too weather averse.
Clay isn't that expensive to maintain, and has good weather playability.
Hard is cheap maintain but not good in the rain.

As others have said, it's not dynamics that dictate but economics.

What LFs list does show is that a better rounded tour could be built though...we don't need to rip up courts, just distribute the events better on existing courts.

For example, why not better promote the game in Latin America by having a South/Latin American swing after AO...ending in say, Acapulco 1000. So many great players come from that region yet the area is under-recognised.

Move Miami/IW to autumn after the Asian swing for those who dont want to go EU indoors. You can play there all year round. Lengthen grass season by moving Wimbledon back 2-3 weeks, establishing Halle as a Masters, Queens as a 500, with Newport/Hertsen... as 250s. The fly in the ointment is always what to do with AO.

It seems to make such good sense to have better defined mini seasons across the year and yet ATP will never do anything to act....an American derived organisation that will always favour hard courts because that's the American way.

lydian wrote:Nice work LF. But at the higher level....500/Masters/slams/WTF you get (the top guys don't play many 250s)

Lydian. Just one thing to point out. Nadal is playing VTR and Sau Paulo and has played roughly 9 250s. Federer has played and won one of each denomination. Djokovic has played Marseille, Sydney, Halle, Queens, etc. Murray has Brisbane, Queens, Bangkok, etc. They play them when they feel the need.

lydian wrote:
Clay: 7 events (6,500 pts on offer)
Hard: 18 events (16,000 pts on offer)
Grass: 1 event (2,000 pts on offer)

That shows the bias to hard court.
Grass coverage is woeful. Too expensive to maintain, too weather averse.
Clay isn't that expensive to maintain, and has good weather playability.
Hard is cheap maintain but not good in the rain.

The way I look at points available is

Clay - 2000 (RG), 3 x 1000 (MC, Rome, Madrid), 3 x 500 , 15 x 250 (ATP - leaving Dusseldorf Powerhorse out) = 10,250 8,750
HC - 1500 (WTF), 4000 (USO, AO), 6 x 1000 (MSes), 8 x 500 , 19 x 250 = 20,250
Grass - 2000, 5 x 250 = 3,250 3,750 (Should I even bother )

lydian wrote:As others have said, it's not dynamics that dictate but economics.

What LFs list does show is that a better rounded tour could be built though...we don't need to rip up courts, just distribute the events better on existing courts.

Absolutely agree.

lydian wrote:For example, why not better promote the game in Latin America by having a South/Latin American swing after AO...ending in say, Acapulco 1000. So many great players come from that region yet the area is under-recognised.

Move Miami/IW to autumn after the Asian swing for those who dont want to go EU indoors. You can play there all year round. Lengthen grass season by moving Wimbledon back 2-3 weeks, establishing Halle as a Masters, Queens as a 500, with Newport/Hertsen... as 250s. The fly in the ointment is always what to do with AO.

It seems to make such good sense to have better defined mini seasons across the year and yet ATP will never do anything to act....an American derived organisation that will always favour hard courts because that's the American way.

This is something which should be discussed within the PC to come up with a better calendar.

Nadal's playing ATP 250s in LatAm may actually help promote the tour in that part a bit better. Rio Olympics should provide another boost.

@IMBL/SoCal... If smoking (or playing on HC) is bad for your health, why smoke (continue play on HC)? TP has also made this point quite a few times.

I do understand that playing on local courts is limited, but for Professionals who travel, they can choose, unlike us mere mortals.

Because the majority of Masters 1000 and Slams are on HC and mandatory.

If he really cares about his health on court, surely he wouldn't be so concerned with ranking if he places playing above winning so hence mandatory tournaments wouldn't be such an issue.

legendkillarV2 wrote:If he really cares about his health on court, surely he wouldn't be so concerned with ranking if he places playing above winning so hence mandatory tournaments wouldn't be such an issue.

Correct, which is why he will probably miss Indian Wells and Miami this year for the clay tournaments.
However his point is in general, the ratio of important hard court tournaments is too high... there are barely and grass and most clays are 250s.

It Must Be Love wrote:Because the majority of Masters 1000 and Slams are on HC and mandatory.

So? Why not discuss this with ITF and ATP privately? Especially when Nadal was VP of PC. There are very clear exemptions in the ATP rules for players.

Did you try and find the answers to my two 'exercises'?

If you watched Borg/Lendl/McEnroe/Connors, the surfaces played differently from each other, and players played very well on all and adjusted playing styles.

Nadal, specifically, made very significant progress on Grass between 2006-08, so players can learn, correct? or HC in 2009-10?

For me simple. Bring forward Cincinatti and make it a Grass 1000 before Wimbledon. Push Wimbledon a week back so that Halle, Eastbourne and Queens can follow Cincinatti so Grass at least has a month on the calendar.

With Grass not only comes the cost of maintaining it, but the precision of ensuring it isn't so affected by the elements. It is a small window for Grass to be played on.

For me there is enough Clay tournaments out there. Reduce the number of HC's in favour of Grass and I think we have a winner.

legendkillarV2 wrote:For me simple. Bring forward Cincinatti and make it a Grass 1000 before Wimbledon. Push Wimbledon a week back so that Halle, Eastbourne and Queens can follow Cincinatti so Grass at least has a month on the calendar.

With Grass not only comes the cost of maintaining it, but the precision of ensuring it isn't so affected by the elements. It is a small window for Grass to be played on.

For me there is enough Clay tournaments out there. Reduce the number of HC's in favour of Grass and I think we have a winner.

Absolutely I entirely agree

legendkillarV2 wrote:For me simple. Bring forward Cincinatti and make it a Grass 1000 before Wimbledon. Push Wimbledon a week back so that Halle, Eastbourne and Queens can follow Cincinatti so Grass at least has a month on the calendar.

With Grass not only comes the cost of maintaining it, but the precision of ensuring it isn't so affected by the elements. It is a small window for Grass to be played on.

For me there is enough Clay tournaments out there. Reduce the number of HC's in favour of Grass and I think we have a winner.

I think we can reduce the amount of clay events... but some of the ones remaining should be upgraded. I think we should have a Masters 1000 in South America on clay (perhaps Acupaulo).
Agree with the rest of what you're saying.

It Must Be Love wrote:
However his point is in general, the ratio of important hard court tournaments is too high... there are barely and grass and most clays are 250s.

36 + 23 = 59

36 / 59 = 61.0%
23 / 59 = 39.0%

Grass does not make a significant difference to this ratio.

Should this be 50/50% to be fair with an equal number of MS and 250s for it to be balanced? and Why?

Clay is fine. I like the flexibility that it can run cuncurrently with HC events throughout the year. I just wish there was a way for Grass to be able to do the same thing. There is potential for it to be a 6 week feature on the tennis calendar.

Unfortunately HC is so easy to maintain and is a wet dream for tournament organisers to make stacks of money.

Make all surfaces accessible geographically and timely and the players will vote with their feet to which tournaments they show up to.

legendkillarV2 wrote:For me simple. Bring forward Cincinatti and make it a Grass 1000 before Wimbledon.

Cannot be done. The climate and location does not permit it. Newport being an MS 1000 is a better option and can be adjusted in the calendar.

legendkillarV2 wrote:Push Wimbledon a week back so that Halle, Eastbourne and Queens can follow Cincinatti so Grass at least has a month on the calendar.

With Grass not only comes the cost of maintaining it, but the precision of ensuring it isn't so affected by the elements. It is a small window for Grass to be played on.

For me there is enough Clay tournaments out there. Reduce the number of HC's in favour of Grass and I think we have a winner.

I would even consider putting roofs in case of inclement weather, to avoid jeopardising the schedule, only if needed.

Cannot be done. The climate and location does not permit it. Newport being an MS 1000 is a better option and can be adjusted in the calendar.

Yeah it can. Average high in June is around 27/28 and the average low is 16. Average of 101 mm of rain. Give them a roof and they will be fine

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Cannot be done. The climate and location does not permit it. Newport being an MS 1000 is a better option and can be adjusted in the calendar.

Yeah it can. Average high in June is around 27/28 and the average low is 16. Average of 101 mm of rain. Give them a roof and they will be fine

If we are planning a roof, I had much rather see a hybrid like UK/Netherlands (with a roof) where both outdoor/indoor is possible. There are two months to build the grass court in Cincy (Apr-May).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinatti,_Ohio#Climate

Also, a bit off-topic. We can discuss the calendar in another article, perhaps.

Or use the roof like in Amsterdam I think where they have a glass roof

It is a tad off topic, but I thought it was a good added dimension.

legendkillarV2 wrote:Or use the roof like in Amsterdam I think where they have a glass roof

It is a tad off topic, but I thought it was a good added dimension.

Bringing the Tennis Caravan to USofA to Cincy for grass and back to W is challenging. IW/Miami in March in US, April-May/Jun European Clay, Jun/July for Cincy and back to W, August-Sep to US again. Too much travel, IMVHO.

Perhaps IW/Miami as grass is another option, but difficult again.

laverfan wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Cannot be done. The climate and location does not permit it. Newport being an MS 1000 is a better option and can be adjusted in the calendar.

Yeah it can. Average high in June is around 27/28 and the average low is 16. Average of 101 mm of rain. Give them a roof and they will be fine

If we are planning a roof, I had much rather see a hybrid like UK/Netherlands (with a roof) where both outdoor/indoor is possible. There are two months to build the grass court in Cincy (Apr-May).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinatti,_Ohio#Climate

Also, a bit off-topic. We can discuss the calendar in another article, perhaps.

Cincy should be moved up right behind wimbeldon laverfan why does it strike you as being impossible, the tournament used to be played on grass, frankly that dreary tournament needs something, anything to resurrect it. Being so close to the USO has resulted in a lot of withdrawals and a lot of tired bodies who would rather be in NY. Plus the grass will cool the playing surface where the concrete and acryllic paint increase the heat levels on court. It is a great idea frankly to save an ancient tournament that is way too close in time frame to the USO.

socal1976 wrote:

Cincy should be moved up right behind wimbeldon laverfan why does it strike you as being impossible, the tournament used to be played on grass, frankly that dreary tournament needs something, anything to resurrect it. Being so close to the USO has resulted in a lot of withdrawals and a lot of tired bodies who would rather be in NY. Plus the grass will cool the playing surface where the concrete and acryllic paint increase the heat levels on court. It is a great idea frankly to save an ancient tournament that is way too close in time frame to the USO.

More or less same is the fate for Toronto Masters, so many withdrawals and for the last few years I haven't see one great final.

socal1976 wrote:Cincy should be moved up right behind wimbeldon laverfan why does it strike you as being impossible, the tournament used to be played on grass, frankly that dreary tournament needs something, anything to resurrect it.

The tournament was started in 1899 as the Cincinnati Open (it would later be known by several other names, including the Tri-State Tennis Tournament and ATP Championships),[2] and would eventually grow into the tournament now held in Mason.[3] The original tournament was held at the Avondale Athletic Club, which sat on property that is now Xavier University, and would later be moved to several various locations due to changes in tournament management and surfaces. The first tournament in 1899 was played on clay courts (described in a newspaper article of the time as "crushed brick dust"), and the event was mostly played on clay until 1979 when it switched permanently to hardcourts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Masters#History

The only reference I can find to Grass is for Cincinnati Tennis Club, back in 1885 (Cincy started in 1899).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Tennis_Club#National_Register_of_Historic_Places

I personally have never seen it on Grass. It would be good to see a reference.

socal1976 wrote:Being so close to the USO has resulted in a lot of withdrawals and a lot of tired bodies who would rather be in NY. Plus the grass will cool the playing surface where the concrete and acryllic paint increase the heat levels on court. It is a great idea frankly to save an ancient tournament that is way too close in time frame to the USO.

AO is much worse than Cincy regarding court temperatures and humidity. .

Yes Laverfan but because the AO is hot and humid does it mean that we can't change Cincy. I frankly think it would be a shot in the arm and give cincy something unique. I didn't know though that it was on clay I assumed it was grass like most of the north american events prior to hardcourt. Good find there. Still I think it would give something unique to it apart from the other north american hardcourts that already exist.

Invisible, same thing doesn happen in canada but since Cincy is even closer time wise to the USO it happens more in Cincy. It is usually a very forgettable tournament and no this has nothing to do with Novak not winning it. Novak has won dubai 3 times and usually dubai is borefest as well. Good post IC.

Henman Bill wrote:I wonder if he was just maximising his winnings. He also almost never bothered to turn up at Wimbledon for easy on the body hard on the slow baseliners fast grass, seeming to develop a small injury every year about a week before the tournament started.

You may be right. In defence of my point I will say that back then it was virtually impossible to be successful both on grass and on clay. So you could not have focused on the natural surfaces and played them both well.

But again, I could be wrong. I remember some talk from then about how Muster focused on clay because of his wrecked knee, but it may well have been a bit of PR propaganda all along.

The surface issue is very easily solved. Just get rid of 2 or three of the current master series (preferably the useless or boring ones like Monte Carlo, Rome or Shanghai) and offer Master 1000 status to the first 2 or 3 500' tournaments that are prepared to change their courts to grass. Man if I was in charge of ATP...

Chydremion wrote:The surface issue is very easily solved. Just get rid of 2 or three of the current master series (preferably the useless or boring ones like Monte Carlo, Rome or Shanghai) and offer Master 1000 status to the first 2 or 3 500' tournaments that are prepared to change their courts to grass. Man if I was in charge of ATP...

Major issues legally plus monte carlo and rome are two ancient tournaments that I would not want to lose. MC is probably the one non-slam tournament I would really likely to attend, maybe the most beautifully situated center court in the world.

socal, I would gladly invite you to stay at my Monte Carlo home....if I had one.

Thanks julius, I don't want to lose MC or Rome those are two brilliant tournaments. Cincy I think is a natural shift to grass though, how often have we seen that tournament hurt by withdrawals and how close in time it is to NY.