FED/NADAL ????? NAH !!!! LETS TALK ABOUT FACEBOOK AND TWITTER

by Haddie-nuff Wed 20 Feb - 7:59

Oh no I hear you moan not another thread about the Fedal Rivalry... well yes it is and yet it isnt. I came across this article which I believe gives a slightly different perspective to these two tennis aces.. Talking more about the men behind the racquets .. so to fans of both maybe a chance to see the man you love to hate in a somewhat different light.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/tennis/2013/02/roger_federer_and_rafael_nadal.html

by lydian Wed 20 Feb - 8:35

Interesting take on things. Federer and Nadal are a sports psychologists dream because they win in different ways, yet win they've done from an early age...both in the scheme of sports at large conduct themselves well, nothing going on off-field and they are looked up to by most kids. Being involved in competitive tennis and the junior scene within that myself, it never fails to amaze me of the iron will of these guys at the top. You almost have to be abnormal to do what they do, to keep their heads in the most extreme of moments. Something most people just cannot do. They are a breed apart mentally and yet are laid back off court. In reality with a mindset like that they would have been successful at just about anything they had pursued.

One phrase I liked in the article which wasn't about Federer or Nadal was this: "our Facebook-driven compulsion to capture, edit and immediately upload moments from our lives is more about representing a certain reality than remembering it."

Love the way that is put...I see so many people blogging their lives on Facebook with innane status updates, etc...and I think the essence really is that it's more to shape their lives than anything else. To portray themselves to others in the way they want to be seen. Facebook makes people become marketing professionals. Or does it...maybe it just provides a vehicle for those who like to cultivate their image. Yet in a world of keeping up appearances, guys like Nadal and Federer don't seem to bother doing that...we can all learn from that.

by Haddie-nuff Wed 20 Feb - 8:55

Yes Lydian I do agree about the Facebook phrase.. I dont contribute to it myself and often wonder why people are driven to telling the world and his wife about their exploits.

But the article impressed me because whilst I have been of the opinion that Rafa and Fed are more friends than rivals off court I wondered at times how much of that was media propaganda ... but when I see them together I do believe it to be the case.. so different in the styles as players but fundementally I think they have the same set of values as people

by User 774433 Wed 20 Feb - 9:13

What a fantastic article, thanks H-n.

by bogbrush Wed 20 Feb - 9:22

lydian wrote:Interesting take on things. Federer and Nadal are a sports psychologists dream because they win in different ways, yet win they've done from an early age...both in the scheme of sports at large conduct themselves well, nothing going on off-field and they are looked up to by most kids. Being involved in competitive tennis and the junior scene within that myself, it never fails to amaze me of the iron will of these guys at the top. You almost have to be abnormal to do what they do, to keep their heads in the most extreme of moments. Something most people just cannot do. They are a breed apart mentally and yet are laid back off court. In reality with a mindset like that they would have been successful at just about anything they had pursued.

One phrase I liked in the article which wasn't about Federer or Nadal was this: "our Facebook-driven compulsion to capture, edit and immediately upload moments from our lives is more about representing a certain reality than remembering it."

Love the way that is put...I see so many people blogging their lives on Facebook with innane status updates, etc...and I think the essence really is that it's more to shape their lives than anything else. To portray themselves to others in the way they want to be seen. Facebook makes people become marketing professionals. Or does it...maybe it just provides a vehicle for those who like to cultivate their image. Yet in a world of keeping up appearances, guys like Nadal and Federer don't seem to bother doing that...we can all learn from that.

Facebook & twitter disturb me, or at least the people who have a psychological need to post on it do. I hold accounts on neither, I'm not interested in reading anyone else's personal details and have no need to communicate my own.

I think people using it are weird. That they may be in the majority doesn't change that.

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed 20 Feb - 9:41

Interesting article, although there is an aspect of "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" about it. Why highlight e.g. Jordan's indiscretions but gloss over Fed's and Rafa's.

When it says "They are paragons of fair play and sportsmanship" is the author forgetting all of Fed's indiscretions that have led some on this board to allege that the Edberg award must be fixed? Smile

He does get it right when he says Fed and Rafa are often criticised for the same things. Ironically, Rafa fans often criticise Fed for it, but not Rafa. And Fed fans often criticise Rafa for it, but not Fed.

Most people on Facebook don't regularly update with the minutiae of their lives, just the odd interesting bit/amusing anecdote/photo now and then.

by HM Murdock Wed 20 Feb - 9:53

Good article. The last two paragraphs in my mind best define the 'Fedal' legacy - that of viewing their positions in the game as ambassadorial and (generally) setting a good example.

As for Facebook, I'm not on it but I don't have an issue with it in itself. Just another form of communication alongside the telephone and text message to me.

Not a fan of a lot of the tripe that gets put on it though. Rule of thumb for Facebook users: if it's not interesting or important enough to tell me verbally, I don't need to see it in writing!

by Haddie-nuff Wed 20 Feb - 9:58

: Most people on Facebook don't regularly update with the minutiae of their lives, just the odd interesting bit/amusing anecdote/photo now and then.

Laugh

Obviously you dont know some of the people I know JM picard

I go along with HM.. if it isnt that interesting or exciting to want to phone all your friends and tell them personally... what makes you think the rest of the world wants to know about it.

by djlovesyou Wed 20 Feb - 10:19

Facebook & twitter disturb me, or at least the people who have a psychological need to post on it do. I hold accounts on neither, I'm not interested in reading anyone else's personal details and have no need to communicate my own.

I think people using it are weird. That they may be in the majority doesn't change that.

But it's perfectly fine to have a psychological need to post on a messageboard, often more than one messageboard, usually discussing the minutae of the lives of a couple of people you've never met.

I don't see the 'discussions' every single day between fans of the different players as being much different to teenage girls discussing which member of One Direction is their favourite on twitter.

by bogbrush Wed 20 Feb - 10:51

No. I argue.

That's quite different from the need to tell the World I'm stuck in traffic, or I've just broken up with my whoever, or whether I've just had the results of my STD test.

Little girls talking about OD is cool, it's the need of some people to reveal the minutia of their tedious personal lives (and they do, I know somebody who keeps a running commentary going of the state of their relationships, and their on/off partner does likewise) that I think it absurd and indicative of psychological issues.

by lydian Wed 20 Feb - 11:02

This is a forum, its about the exchange of views and information about tennis.

Facebook to me seems to concern telling the world what they're doing from one moment to the next, often just trying to make themselves sound witty, interesting or be seen with the in-crowd. Its almost a cry for attention.

If I want to stay in contact with friends, I pick up the phone and talk with them. Sending an update to my "network" that I'm about to go to London on a trip, or that I "like" someone else's innane comment seems rather pointless to me.

by Haddie-nuff Wed 20 Feb - 11:13

Well this is all very intersting boys but I think we have strayed a little from the purpose of maybe my not so interesting thread.
Every other thread gets turned into the Fedal debate.. now you have a chance and we have the TwitBook debate... no satisfying you lot Erm

Im off

by djlovesyou Wed 20 Feb - 11:15

lydian wrote:This is a forum, its about the exchange of views and information about tennis.

Absolutely. But does the obsessive use of forums to discuss tennis and players (often to quite a personal level) any better or worse than tediously updating your life on facebook?

That's one of the positive things about social media, you can use them how you want to use them. I agree that there is a lot of dross on facebook, but it can be filtered out.

Everybody has a right to use or not use these sites. It's the sanctimonious attitude of people who think they are somehow above it all, when essentially, they simply don't understand the medium enough. I use twitter for two reasons, firstly as a sporting news feed and secondly (shock, horror, probe) as a good way of discussing sports with like minded people. Facebook can be used in a similar way too.

by LuvSports! Wed 20 Feb - 11:17

wow okkk this is awkward but um....... i have facebook....... and..... twitter ...
BUT I LIKE THEM!

Take that v2 society!

by lydian Wed 20 Feb - 11:20

Yes but Haddie I made the link between the two above...

"...in a world of keeping up appearances, guys like Nadal and Federer don't seem to bother doing that...we can all learn from that..."

The article is about how Federer and Nadal are themselves, they don't try to be someone they're not, and are both honest and open in interviews. I'm not sure what there is to separate them on this. Nadal is probably more outspoken in terms of issues, as he sees them, with the tour but Federer wont hold back either. Their styles of tennis are very different but they probably have more in common than what separates them given they're the 2 most successful people in global tennis over the past 10 years.

My point is that on-court they let the racquet do the talking, off court they're unafraid to say what they mean. Either way they do whats necessary. Facebook to me seems to be the concern of doing loads of things that are relatively pointless...but hey that's just me! If someone loves being on FB then fair enough, each to their own.

by Haddie-nuff Wed 20 Feb - 11:33

lydian wrote:Yes but Haddie I made the link between the two above...

"...in a world of keeping up appearances, guys like Nadal and Federer don't seem to bother doing that...we can all learn from that..."

The article is about how Federer and Nadal are themselves, they don't try to be someone they're not, and are both honest and open in interviews. I'm not sure what there is to separate them on this. Nadal is probably more outspoken in terms of issues, as he sees them, with the tour but Federer wont hold back either. Their styles of tennis are very different but they probably have more in common than what separates them given they're the 2 most successful people in global tennis over the past 10 years.

My point is that on-court they let the racquet do the talking, off court they're unafraid to say what they mean. Either way they do whats necessary. Facebook to me seems to be the concern of doing loads of things that are relatively pointless...but hey that's just me! If someone loves being on FB then fair enough, each to their own.

I agree Lydian if Facebook floats your boat then sobeit.. but I think it sad that technology has taken the place of the art of conversation and the personal written word. But then Im old fashioned I believe personal human contact is one of the most precious things in our lives especially when you have family living half way around the world. To resort to emailing or facebooking a friend who lives just around the corner..
get off your bum go round and sit and have a coffee.

Anyway I think that sums up our discussion about Rafa and Roger the two normal men who happen to play tennis cheers to both

by HM Murdock Wed 20 Feb - 11:34

To combine the two topics:

Nadal has a twitter feed. He often uses it to promote playing poker

Federer does not have a twitter feed.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions. Or, indeed, none.

by bogbrush Wed 20 Feb - 11:41

djlovesyou wrote:
lydian wrote:This is a forum, its about the exchange of views and information about tennis.

Absolutely. But does the obsessive use of forums to discuss tennis and players (often to quite a personal level) any better or worse than tediously updating your life on facebook?

That's one of the positive things about social media, you can use them how you want to use them. I agree that there is a lot of dross on facebook, but it can be filtered out.

Everybody has a right to use or not use these sites. It's the sanctimonious attitude of people who think they are somehow above it all, when essentially, they simply don't understand the medium enough. I use twitter for two reasons, firstly as a sporting news feed and secondly (shock, horror, probe) as a good way of discussing sports with like minded people. Facebook can be used in a similar way too.

Any medium (Facebook, twitter, forums, telephone, pigeon post and verbal conversation) can be used to transit sensible communication. The problem with facebook and twitter is that they are uniquely suited to complete @r$eholes boring the pants off everyone with their hopeless lives and relationships because they think it makes them more like Kim Kardashian or some other irrelevent person.

Yes, I do look down on all that behaviour because I am better than it.

by HM Murdock Wed 20 Feb - 11:56

bogbrush wrote:Any medium (Facebook, twitter, forums, telephone, pigeon post and verbal conversation) can be used to transit sensible communication. The problem with facebook and twitter is that they are uniquely suited to complete @r$eholes boring the pants off everyone with their hopeless lives and relationships because they think it makes them more like Kim Kardashian or some other irrelevent person.

I must concur, certainly on Facebook. Twitter used properly can be pretty good news feed (actually BB, it limits people to 140 characters, so in some ways it's right up your street! Wink

).

For instance, why on earth is there a "relationship status" on there? It can only be to either a) herald to the world that you are in a relationship or b) to announce to the world that you are on the lookout. I'm not sure which is worse.

The "prod" function? Does it have any purpose other than to remind people of your existence?

The use of "friend" when we really mean "contact" is another veneer of faux popularity.

The "likes" section. Again, what purpose other than self promotion? To paraphrase a line from Family Guy, it's where we can list all the things created by someone else that we use to show our individuality.

Each to their own and all that but there surely can't be any denying that Facebook is designed to facilitate the inane?

by Calder106 Wed 20 Feb - 12:09

HM Murdoch wrote:To combine the two topics:

Nadal has a twitter feed. He often uses it to promote playing poker

Federer does not have a twitter feed.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions. Or, indeed, none.

Pretty sure they both have facebook accounts (I don't have either). Should I look down on them ?

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed 20 Feb - 12:10

BB, in Facebook you only see posts of people you want to see - these are usually my friends/ex-colleagues - who I don't consider @rseholes with hopeless lives Smile

otherwise they wouldn't be my FB friends
Most of them only post occassionally, and never about relationships!

by bogbrush Wed 20 Feb - 12:14

JuliusHMarx wrote:BB, in Facebook you only see posts of people you want to see - these are usually my friends/ex-colleagues - who I don't consider @rseholes with hopeless lives otherwise they wouldn't be my FB friends
Most of them only post occassionally, and never about relationships!

Sure, I'm not saying the medium itself is rendered useless to normal people, just that an excrutiatingly high number of people use them to parade their emptiness. I did say in my first sentence that any medium can be used productively.

I'm more concerned about what the use of this tool in this way tells us about the absurd people filling this country. The medium isn't the problem, it's just a symptom.

by Calder106 Wed 20 Feb - 12:31

Goes back to DJ's point though. What right do we have to criticise people for using these forms of media to discuss what they want when we are endlessly discussing the same tennis issues.

by bogbrush Wed 20 Feb - 12:32

Calder106 wrote:Goes back to DJ's point though. What right do we have to criticise people for using these forms of media to discuss what they want when we are endlessly discussing the same tennis issues.

I don't criticise them, I think they are pathetic.

They are free to think the same about me, the difference is that I am right.

by lags72 Wed 20 Feb - 12:32

[quote="Calder106"]

HM Murdoch wrote:

..................................................

Pretty sure they both have facebook accounts (I don't have either). Should I look down on them ?

Indeed they do both have Facebook pages. And with a relatively close number of 'likes' to use the FB jargon:

Nadal : 11.5 million

Federer : 12.5 million

by Calder106 Wed 20 Feb - 12:37

bogbrush wrote:
Calder106 wrote:Goes back to DJ's point though. What right do we have to criticise people for using these forms of media to discuss what they want when we are endlessly discussing the same tennis issues.
I don't criticise them, I think they are pathetic.

They are free to think the same about me, the difference is that I am right.

The difference is that you believe you are right but again that may not be everybody's point of view.

by bogbrush Wed 20 Feb - 12:50

Calder106 wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Calder106 wrote:Goes back to DJ's point though. What right do we have to criticise people for using these forms of media to discuss what they want when we are endlessly discussing the same tennis issues.
I don't criticise them, I think they are pathetic.

They are free to think the same about me, the difference is that I am right.

The difference is that you believe you are right but again that may not be everybody's point of view.

Not relevent, truth is not determined by democracy. Or indeed "likes".

by HM Murdock Wed 20 Feb - 13:09

Calder106 wrote:Goes back to DJ's point though. What right do we have to criticise people for using these forms of media to discuss what they want when we are endlessly discussing the same tennis issues.

If I started threads that announced that I was stuck in traffic or that I was enjoying a coffee or that cryptically bemoaned the tragic nature of my love life, they would rightly be viewed as dull and self-indulgent.

These things do not become more worthy just because they are posted on another medium.

by Calder106 Wed 20 Feb - 13:17

HM Murdoch wrote:
Calder106 wrote:Goes back to DJ's point though. What right do we have to criticise people for using these forms of media to discuss what they want when we are endlessly discussing the same tennis issues.
If I started threads that announced that I was stuck in traffic or that I was enjoying a coffee or that cryptically bemoaned the tragic nature of my love life, they would rightly be viewed as dull and self-indulgent.

These things do not become more worthy just because they are posted on another medium.

I didn't say that they are but if people want to post these things and people want to read them why decry them. Is it worse than raising yet another article discussing weak era's and stong era's or saying look there are more people cheering for player A than player B.

by bogbrush Wed 20 Feb - 13:26

There's nothing wrong with judging.

by HM Murdock Wed 20 Feb - 13:37

Calder106 wrote:I didn't say that they are but if people want to post these things and people want to read them why decry them. Is it worse than raising yet another article discussing weak era's and stong era's or saying look there are more people cheering for player A than player B.

I don't doubt the part about people wanting to post them but I really have my doubts about people wanting to read them!

As for whether they are better or worse topics than tennis, that's entirely subjective. Whether the early 2000s was a weak era or whether Maureen who you used to go to school with is really looking forward to a bath and glass of wine tonight, neither stops the world turning!

The difference is that on this forum, people are here to discuss tennis.

Facebook works on the assumption that everyone you are connected to wants to hear what you have to say about anything.

Which is fine if you have something extraordinary to say. But putting out endless mundanities suggests an over-valuation of one's status.

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed 20 Feb - 13:46

Ham and cheese sandwich for lunch on Hovis wholemeal, with Vitalite spread.

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed 20 Feb - 13:47

Sorry, that was supposed to be on Facebook

by HM Murdock Wed 20 Feb - 13:53

JuliusHMarx wrote:Ham and cheese sandwich for lunch on Hovis wholemeal, with Vitalite spread.

LOOOOOL! PMSL! ROFL Harris! Gr8 stuff m8!
#RightOnTheMarx

This was liked by HM Murdoch

by LuvSports! Wed 20 Feb - 13:57

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed 20 Feb - 14:05

Excellent bowel movement. No toilet paper #Andrex

by Calder106 Wed 20 Feb - 14:13

HM Murdoch wrote:
Calder106 wrote:I didn't say that they are but if people want to post these things and people want to read them why decry them. Is it worse than raising yet another article discussing weak era's and stong era's or saying look there are more people cheering for player A than player B.
I don't doubt the part about people wanting to post them but I really have my doubts about people wanting to read them!

As for whether they are better or worse topics than tennis, that's entirely subjective. Whether the early 2000s was a weak era or whether Maureen who you used to go to school with is really looking forward to a bath and glass of wine tonight, neither stops the world turning!

The difference is that on this forum, people are here to discuss tennis.

Facebook works on the assumption that everyone you are connected to wants to hear what you have to say about anything.

Which is fine if you have something extraordinary to say. But putting out endless mundanities suggests an over-valuation of one's status.

Totally fine with that. Don't go on Facebook if you don't like it (I'm not on it) but I still don't think it gives people on here the right to decry people who use it in a harmless fashion (e.g not using it to abuse or bully others). We talk about what we want they talk about what they want. Doesn't make us superior.
Anyway apologies to Haddie for getting involved in taking this off topic. I've said what I think. I maybe right or wrong but I won't prolong the discussion anymore.

by lags72 Wed 20 Feb - 14:13

JHM : I can see that you're definitely not a regular Facebook user.

If you were, your postings would be far less interesting than the two samples you have just offered ......

by HM Murdock Wed 20 Feb - 14:18

HM Murdoch wrote at 14:02 pm
Mmmm, I love pies.

HM Murdoch wrote at 14:10 pm
Wondering if I should shower today?

HM Murdoch wrote at 14:16 pm
WHY WON'T SHE NOTICE ME? AM I THAT UNLOVEABLE?!!!

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed 20 Feb - 14:19

Good

Yes

Yes

by invisiblecoolers Wed 20 Feb - 16:39

Thx for the Link HN thumbsup

Look whats great about these two is how good they patch up outside the court, they are not just great players but great human beings too, their contributions outside the court is amazing.Yea we had some celebrities in our sport in previous era too like Agassi who ran a lot of charity work with his foundations, but in Fed/Nadal era they almost made it a mandatory to do charity works on their off time.

What make these two special is the respect they share for each other, compared to previous era where ego was the key word between Agassi- Pete, Pete- Rafter etc,.. [I still feel ashamed with the way they reacted on Fed-Pete/Andre-Rafa charity match] these two gentlemen have been role models for the public, fans, Admins and finally the kids.

While they gave it all in the court they left it there after the match and enjoyed their public and private life they way they wanted. The image of the sport has been great and these two are a key part of it remaining great. thumbsup

by Haddie-nuff Wed 20 Feb - 16:53

Glad you enjoyed it ic.. it was intended to be something different about the two most talked about players.. it was refreshing (I thought at least)

by invisiblecoolers Wed 20 Feb - 17:36

Yup, it is.

by socal1976 Wed 20 Feb - 18:45

bogbrush wrote:No. I argue.

That's quite different from the need to tell the World I'm stuck in traffic, or I've just broken up with my whoever, or whether I've just had the results of my STD test.

Little girls talking about OD is cool, it's the need of some people to reveal the minutia of their tedious personal lives (and they do, I know somebody who keeps a running commentary going of the state of their relationships, and their on/off partner does likewise) that I think it absurd and indicative of psychological issues.

I concur with those that loathe facebook and virtual vomitting. I thought I was one of the last people who didn't tweet, instagram, or facebook. Who the hell cares about all that crap, more people who are entirely self-centered feigning interest in other people who are entirely self-centered. No one cares and no I don't need to stay in touch with everything that everyone is doing.

by socal1976 Wed 20 Feb - 18:52

I will say this it is a good gauge of how much of douchebag someone is to look at their facebook page. I have a cousin who is a reasonably good looking guy but I don't know not, model material or anything. And his facebook page looked like Zoolander's facebook page. Replete with black and white photos of him by himself, professionally done laying at the beach right at the wavebreak, wearing designer jeans and no shirt. Or homoerotic photos of him and his guy friends drinking with their shirts off and snapping pictures of themselves. And he isn't a model or actor or anything but the facebook page was the most silly, self-absorbed, borderline homoerotic thing I have ever seen. If you are a man and you take photos of yourself wearing jeans at the beach in black white shots, as the waves crash around you, well then you are a douchebag.

Well it goes without saying that me and couple of other family members made fun of Zoolander about his page to the point that he took it down.

by HM Murdock Wed 20 Feb - 18:53

socal1976 wrote:
bogbrush wrote:No. I argue.

That's quite different from the need to tell the World I'm stuck in traffic, or I've just broken up with my whoever, or whether I've just had the results of my STD test.

Little girls talking about OD is cool, it's the need of some people to reveal the minutia of their tedious personal lives (and they do, I know somebody who keeps a running commentary going of the state of their relationships, and their on/off partner does likewise) that I think it absurd and indicative of psychological issues.

I concur with those that loathe facebook and virtual vomitting. I thought I was one of the last people who didn't tweet, instagram, or facebook. Who the hell cares about all that crap, more people who are entirely self-centered feigning interest in other people who are entirely self-centered. No one cares and no I don't need to stay in touch with everything that everyone is doing.

And there we have it! A subject that Socal and BB feel strongly about AND agree on!

I'm going to have to think of an amusing hash tag and get this trending...

by socal1976 Wed 20 Feb - 18:56

HM Murdoch wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
bogbrush wrote:No. I argue.

That's quite different from the need to tell the World I'm stuck in traffic, or I've just broken up with my whoever, or whether I've just had the results of my STD test.

Little girls talking about OD is cool, it's the need of some people to reveal the minutia of their tedious personal lives (and they do, I know somebody who keeps a running commentary going of the state of their relationships, and their on/off partner does likewise) that I think it absurd and indicative of psychological issues.

I concur with those that loathe facebook and virtual vomitting. I thought I was one of the last people who didn't tweet, instagram, or facebook. Who the hell cares about all that crap, more people who are entirely self-centered feigning interest in other people who are entirely self-centered. No one cares and no I don't need to stay in touch with everything that everyone is doing.
And there we have it! A subject that Socal and BB feel strongly about AND agree on!

I'm going to have to think of an amusing hash tag and get this trending...

You know what they say about broken clocks Murdoch.

by HM Murdock Wed 20 Feb - 18:59

socal1976 wrote: If you are a man and you take photos of yourself wearing jeans at the beach in black white shots, as the waves crash around you, well then you are a douchebag.

FED/NADAL ????? NAH !!!! LETS TALK ABOUT FACEBOOK AND TWITTER Nadal-12

by HM Murdock Wed 20 Feb - 19:30

It does seem different when the picture is in colour though...
FED/NADAL ????? NAH !!!! LETS TALK ABOUT FACEBOOK AND TWITTER Ana_iv10

by socal1976 Wed 20 Feb - 19:34

Is it me or are color pictures less pretentious, plus if you work as a marketing pitch man, you will have to do those things to sell yourself and products. My cousins photos were way worse than this Nadal photo and he paid someone to take the photos they were professionally done, no one was paying him to dress up like that. Shirt off at the beach with waves crashing around you, as a man is pretty strange, especially if you work in real estate supposedly like my cousin and not as a pitchman.

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