v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Group 2

The second of today's Round 2 groups.

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Voted Jordan (Don't shoot me!)

The man was a tremendous physical specimen and is the GOAT of basketball which is a more global sport then I realised before this competition started. Maradona falls behind Pele and possibly Messi these days and all the off the ball stuff leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

Not a big cricket fan but Warne would be well down the list for GOAT and while Graf is probably the greatest female player of all time I feel she falls behind some of her male counterparts for tennis GOAT.

Shane warne. legend with the ball..

Maradona, biggest sport in the world and he is possibly the best in it. Jordan next.

Diego Maradonna Championed by Hero

"One day, Lionel Messi will possibly prove to be the global game's greatest player, but not yet, and certainly not just because he has blown the all-time number of goals in a calendar year. Messi may be scoring goals at a rate rarely seen since Dixie Dean's heyday, but he does have the advantage of being at the sharp end of probably the greatest club side of all time. Take Messi out of Barcelona and what do you have?
We already have an answer.

In the last World Cup Messi failed to score in five matches as Argentina lost in the quarter-final to Germany whilst his Barca teammates have lifted the Euro twice and the World Cup. It is argued that the Champions League is now a higher standard than the World Cup (not that the presence of Apoel Nicosia in the quarter-finals adds much weight to that view). Whether it is or not is irrelevant when judging Messi because he is playing for the best team in the competition, a team which even without him would be formidable. A truly great player is capable of turning a moderate team into a winning one. Like Diego Maradona.

English attitudes towards Maradona are understandably coloured by the ""Hand of God"" goal but his notoriety should not obscure his greatness. Maradona turned base materials into gold on both the club and international stage. Napoli were a shambles when they somehow found the cash to buy him in 1984. Fighting relegation had become a way of life with the club surviving by a point the previous season. Maradona turned them into title contenders and in 1986/87 they won the first scudetto in the club's history. A second Serie A title, and Napoli's first European prize, the Uefa Cup, followed. Since Maradona left, the club have not won a trophy.
Maradona was similarly central to Argentina's 1986 World Cup success. Ten of their 14 goals were scored or created by him, and his five goals included superb ones against England and Belgium of the type now associated with Messi. In the final, after West Germany had come back from 2-0 down to level, he supplied the pass for Jorge Burruchaga to score the winner. All this while carrying a knee injury which had threatened to rule him out of the tournament.

Brian Glanville, in The Story of the World Cup, his history of the competition since 1930, wrote: ""It will always be remembered as Maradona's World Cup, seldom has a player, even Pele, so dominated the competition. In an era when individual talent was at a premium, defensive football more prevalent than ever, Maradona – squat, muscular, explosive, endlessly adroit – showed that a footballer of genius could still prevail.""

This context is another factor in Maradona's primacy. He formerly played in an era when the tactics were negative and the tackling brutal. Maradona's relative lack of impact at Barcelona, and later decline, had much to do with the injuries he suffered including the notorious ankle-break by Andoni Goikoetxea, the ""Butcher of Bilbao"". Only after the 1990 World Cup, when Maradona carried to the final an Argentine team which was as guilty of these sins as any, did Fifa begin the crackdown which has allowed players like Messi to flourish.

Simply put Maradona was the best player in the most global sport and therefore rightfully should challenge for the biggest prize of all, the G.O.A.T.
"

Steffi Graf Championed by legendkillarV2

"Arguably one of tennis's most gifted and successful players ever. 22 Grand Slam titles. 6 end of year titles. 69 other tour event titles. 377 weeks at number 1. Gold, Silver and Bronze Olympic medals. The only player ever to have won the Career Golden Calendar Year Slam. A feat which will never be repeated. The Fraulein Forehand as she was known. She had a lovely and velvet like backhand slice to match that of the great Rod Laver. Her footwork and speed was amazing. The game had simply never witnessed anything like it. It still hasn't.

Steffi begun playing tennis at the age of 4 being coached by her tennis enthuisast father. By age 5 she had played in her first tournament. In 1982 she won both the under 12's and under 18's European Championships. She then turned pro at the age of 13 and her first match lost to 2 time Slam winner Tracey Austin. There was no doubt that this talented youngster was going to go far. In 1983 she broke into the top 100 of the world which for a 14 year old is just sensational. Let that sink in for a minute. The top 100 on the pro tour at the age of 14. At the age of 15 she won her first Grand Slam match. At the age of 16 she won her first pro title by winning the Family Circle Cup by defeating the legendary Chris Evert in straight sets.

It wasn't until 1987 when Steffi started to come to prominance. She won the Sony Ericsson Open and then went on to win in Rome. A month later and Graf was in her first Grand Slam final at Roland Garros. A week shy of her 18th birthday. Standing on the other side of the net was the greatest female player of them all. Martina Navratilova. A winning machine. The ultimate competitor. Graf was unbeaten in 1987. After a set all, it came down to a final set showdown. Nerve would fancy the more experienced Navratilova. Graf was 3-5 in the third. Navratilova double faulted serving for the match at 5-4. Graf broke the Navratilova serve and got 6-7. Match point. Navratilova served another DF thus handing Graf her first Slam title and making her the youngest female winner of the French Open. Navratilova however got her measure of revenge by beating Graf in the Wimbledon and US Open finals. Slam finals were many things which Graf would feature in. This would mark a run of 13 consecutive Slam finals for Graf.

1988. The single most amazing year in tennis history. She started the year winning her first Australian Open title. She overcame Chris Evert in straight sets. She won the title without the loss of a single set. She went on to Roland Garros where she defended her title by defeating Natalia Zvereva 6-0 6-0 in the final. The first time anyone had been bagelled in a Slam final since 1911!. Along came Wimbledon. She faced Navratilova who had won 6 straight Wimbledon titles. After losing the first set, Steffi found herself 2-0 in second. She rallied back and won 6 straight games to clinch the second set. Steffi then saw out the 3rd to win the match 7-5 2-6 1-6 and usher in new period of dominance. Graf then went on to win the US Open defeating Gabriela Sabatini in the final and then at the Summer Olympics in Seoul completed the most amazing year in tennis by capturing Gold. Thus sealing her place in history.

In her career she went on to win Wimbledon 7 times. 5 in a row. The French Open 6 times. The US Open 5 times and Australian Open 4 times. She appeared in 31 Slam finals. She won 18 Masters Titles making 24 finals. She won 5 end of year championships.

Quite simply she was the greatest player to have ever played the game."

Was a coin toss for me between Graf and Warne. Graf was phenomenol, but went Warne in the end. A genius with the ball, but with a remarkable understanding of the game that really sets him apart from everyone else for me

Graf by a mile.

Not as obvious a choice for me as Round 1.
Anyway, this time we have:
Druggy
Druggy
Married to Druggy
Played with Druggy (Rodman MUST have been on all sorts of stuff ).

For all I loved and hated watching Warne, I have to discount him from this list. Yes, he could do magic things, but his career statistics don't put him away and clear as even the best spin bowler.

Maradona? Fantastic skillful player who for about 5 years from the mid 80s to early 90s was the best. Was the outstanding player for Argentina in winning the 86 World Cup (in a side that is often under-rated, probably because the 1990 team wasn't much cop yet still made the final), and almost single handedly turned Napoli from being a Serie A struggler to a title contender (won 2 in four years, finished 2nd the other two years, plus winning cup competitions, but never quite cracked it in the European Cup). I do though think his legacy falls a bit behind Pele's.

Graf? Greatest year ever in women's tennis (Golden Slam) and a fantastc career record. Hugely gifted athlete and with arguably the best single shot ever seen in the women's game (that forehand) - the rest of her game wasn't too shabby either, including the vicious sliced backhand that was so effective on grass. The one weakness in her case is the record against Seles prior to her stabbing - Seles looked to largely have Steffi's number, and so SG's career legacy has to be viewed with that in mind.

Jordan? The NBA's greatest ever player, and with a huge championship legacy (twice leading the Bulls to 'threepeats'), and one of the few sports stars where it is possible to demonstrate objectively (i.e. by comparing regular season and playoff stats) that the more important the game, the better he played. My one concern in his legacy was the mid career 'retirement' to go and try playing baseball.

I think Steffi probably falls just behind Diego and MJ, who are not far off a coin toss. However, Maradona went to 4 World Cups and was only a real success at one of them (and the less said about 94 the better), while Jordan did the business in 6 Playoff finals, so just gets my vote for being the better big game player.

Michael Jordan, for me. I'm no fan of basketball but I'm not enough of a sporting bigot to discard a man who transcended his sport, helped change millions of people's perceptions of it and who, quite clearly, was one hell of a pure athlete and a fantastic specimen.

You know he must have been something special when someone like me, who can't stand the sport in general, still ends up watching in awe at some of the things he did. He's literally the only basketball player who could make me watch.

I rate Graf massively highly, Maradona whille being a touch overrated is still very much a sporting legend, but Joran gets this one today in my eyes.

Jordan as the person who transceneded his sport. Even people like me who know nothing about basketball have heard of Michael Jordan. Same can be said of Maradona, but for probably all the wrong reasons!

Jordan wins this one for me!

steffi by a mile.

My personal GOAT of football against my personal GOAT of basketball. Football may be the more universal sport but I think Jordan may be more ahead of his competitors than Maradonna is of his (ie Pele and Messi etc)
I'm going for Jordan!

Michael Jordan

gonna change my vote to jordon after thinking about it.

Sadly this is gonna be a two horse race and I gotta go for jordan.

Shane warne is my personal fav. But Jordan is worthy of this title more.

voted for graf I think she is the best of the 4.

Jordan in this one, and I've created a number of accou...

Seriously though, I have voted Jordan mainly on a transcending sport basis (in a positive way) and because IMO he is by far the best in his sport by some way relative to the others.

Maradona, the greatest ever at the greatest ever sport.

Graf for me. Needed a write up on Jordan really to show how good he was. If no-one could be bothered to do that, I can't be bothered voting for him!

I dont consider graf to be the greatest female tennis player ive seen let alone goat, I reckon serena would wipe the floor with her. Female tennis has evoled very quickly since the arrival of the williams sisters because its had too. They were just way to strong and quick for the rest and as a result the female game has ajusted. Graf was the best of the older weaker game, and this isnt like comparing sport where natural progression had occured its only a decade apart so I don't think that's a valid argument

So slowing down of courts hasn't impacted the game to benefit players like the Williams? In Graf's pomp they couldn't touch her.

Personally I can't stand the power game we have today in Women's Tennis. I used to watch it as it was an elegant contrast to the men's game. Women's Tennis to me now is just a very poor imitation of the men's game.

I don't blame the Williams sisters for that, but am definitely influenced by the era Graf played in.

Surprisingly I find myself voting for Jordan, although how Meadowlark Lemon was missed off the list, I'll never know.

VTR wrote:Personally I can't stand the power game we have today in Women's Tennis. I used to watch it as it was an elegant contrast to the men's game. Women's Tennis to me now is just a very poor imitation of the men's game.

I don't blame the Williams sisters for that, but am definitely influenced by the era Graf played in.

VTR
While agreeing with much of your post above, I rather disagree with the part I've bolded. Currently men's tennis has far more diversity than the women's game and has never been as solely focussed on power of groundstrokes. At present, the women's game to my eyes is simply a case of dollying in a serve to get the point going (except Serena and Venus) then bash the ball pretty straight up and down the court with a topspin forehand and a double-handed backhand until either you can hit a faster shot or your opponent misses. Hardly any player comes into the court or has a good slice and few of them even seem to try to work angles (Aggie Radwanska perhaps being an exception to this). It still shocks me on how much the game has regressed to one-dimensionality when I see the footage of (say) Graf and Novotna at Wimbledon - yes they could hit hard from the back, but they also could both serve (Steffi particularly), slice and VOLLEY...

Can't agree that Serena wipes the floor with Graf, Graf at the end of her career regularly beat a young Serena and i've seen nothing to suggest it would ever be any different. Graf is a far more rounded player, a better athlete and simply better in every way other than power hitting. Henin showed that someone with a bit of guile can overcome the heavy hitters.

Gone for Warne, by cricketing all time great, close between him and Graf though, I don't consider Maradona to be better than Pele so couldn't begin to contemplate him placing other the two aforementioned.

Michael Jordan is the only one in this group who is unquestionably the greatest in his own sport. Also, the only one you would recognise purely from his silhouette.

OK, basketball is a sport where the professional game is dominated by the US, and where every Olympics we have to put up with some or other silliness about whether the US team will win the gold (I had the misfortune to have to follow the 92 Olympics - the one with the first Dream Team - on US TV and it was sickening).

But Jordan transcended his sport in a way that none of the others has.

Transcended in America possibly but much of that is because of being an american playing an american sport.

not too sure you can compare their head to head records as serena hadn't really fully developed until the early 2000's at which point graf had retired. she may have turned pro in 1995 but that was at the age of 13!!

i agree with others that womens tennis is now more one dimensional but cant agree that it was stronger during grafs era. more variety definitely but its so much faster now. only have to look how a great technician like hingis was blown apart when the williams sisters hit there peak, as result womens tennis has had to try and match their speed and strength otherwise they were never going to beat them. could also argue that the rise of the eastern block girls there is a lot more depth in womens tennis now then in grafs era where it was just mainly Americans as main opposition with the odd Spanish and Argentinian

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Transcended in America possibly but much of that is because of being an american playing an american sport.

No, I mean what I said. Jordan transcended his sport to the extent that people globally with no interest and little to no knowledge of basketball know who he is and have some idea what he had achieved. I suspect that if you asked a random selection of people of all nationalities to name a basketball player, Jordan would comfortably top the list (even with a sizeable Chinese minority voting for Yao Ming).

That, to me, is transcending your sport, and very few sportsmen ever achieve it. It wouldn't count for much without achievement, but the achievements are certainly there. It would be relatively easy to dismiss him as an American playing a sport that America dominates, but the sheer scale of what he did outweighs that for me.

What basis is this opinion based upon because I don't see global transcendence from anyone other than Ali.

i agree with a lot of poorfour points about Jordan, but i would like to add that its much easier too transcend a smaller sport like basketball than it is for the likes of maradona and pele to transcend football

I would argue that Messi is far more well know globally than Jordan ever was but I wouldn't consider him someone who has transcended, football has such a massive following all of it's star will be know throughout the world.

When those 100's of millions of people were buying Air Jordan's I think its safe to assume they knew they weren't named after the country.

did anyone hear about the interview in america after Mo won a half marathon recently

The interviewer from a us network aussmed he was an amatuer.

She asked him if he had every raced before !!l

Diggers wrote:When those 100's of millions of people were buying Air Jordan's I think its safe to assume they knew they weren't named after the country.

funnily enough i asked a younger colleague recently who Michael Jordan was and he didn't know, but he did know what air Jordans were!

Interesting just watching Zola on the Sky fantasy football thing pick his all time 11 he's played with, picked Maradona and talked about how he could tell he was a cut above the likes of Van Basten and Gullit when they played against each other.
Not a bad recommendation from a guy who I think most of us would trust.

Warney

Jordan and Maradonna progress to the last 16

jeas Maradona only got through by the skin of his teeth!

The lines between success and failure are certainly thin.

his were also long, white, powdery, illegal.

Shame coz he was brilliant.