Rafa Crushes Ferrer 6-0 6-2. Is He Back Yet?

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After 8 months away from the court there was much speculation about whether Nadal would ever be able to return to the top. On his return he looked a little wobbly but last night he crushed the world number four 6-0 6-2

A dominant Rafa Nadal dismantled fellow Spaniard David Ferrer 6-0 6-2 on Saturday to win his second Mexican Open title and continue his successful comeback from a long injury lay-off.

Nadal, ranked fifth in the world, needed just over an hour to dispatch top seed Ferrer and was delighted with his form.

"For me, I played almost perfectly," said Nadal following the match. "My knee responded well all week."

Nadal also confirmed he would play in next week's Indian Wells hard-court tournament, despite speculation he might skip the event to spare his knee.

"My heart tells me I should continue competing, that I need to move on to the next tournament," he added.

"Rafa was just better than me today," said Ferrer.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/03/03/uk-tennis-mexico-nadal-idUKBRE92201I20130303

So is he back yet? How scared should other players be looking at that score line?

Actually, I think it helps Ferrer in his consistency to have zero expectations at slams. He can just play his game which is good enough to beat the "best of the rest" without worrying about how the beat the top 4.
It also helps to maintain his ranking to rack up titles in the likes of Auckland, s-Hertogenbosch in the weeks before slams when the top players are preparing for the slams.

Yvonne, I would agree with you if I honestly believed that these two have done the hard yards. I have yet to see berdych evolve as a player like murray or Djoko and add something to his package of weapons. Tsonga in particular refused to even have a coach for two years because quote he wanted Tennis to be fun again. I mean if you saw that match against Djokovic it was the same old Berdych finding away to give it away in a big match. The sad thing is that both of them have grandslam talent but neither one will probably ever win a slam because they just don't work hard enough or are not smart enough to figure out what they need to do differently.

I mean talent wise these guys have big 4 talent, but mentally and work ethic wise they are really not that committed. Well we have seen it now for years from them so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

YvonneT wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:But then you are left asking the question.....
Who in the last analysis is the most successful.. a man who has achieved 20 titles albeit he is now 31yrs old... and according to concensus of opinion has little talent.. just work ethic.
The other two albeit younger who have achieved virtually nothing with oodles of talent but obviously lacking the very thing that Ferrer has and they dont.
Again I say.. I take my hat of to Ferrer his tenacity and hard work has made him a tennis player who will be remembered.
At the moment I cannot see Berdych at any rate carving his name in the Tennis History books.

What a strange post to denegrate Berdych and Tsonga to try to big up Ferrer.
I have no idea why H-N thinks that Ferrer will be remembered any more than Berdych. As has been said, both have one Masters win among other titles. Berdych has multiple wins over Federer at slams, back to back slams wins over Federer and Djokovic, and a slam final.
And as for Tsonga, he was ranked higher than Ferrer over the summer, and is one of a select few with slam wins over Federer, Nadal and Djokovic.
Sure they do not have the mental strength of the very top players, but that's a pretty high standard to judge them by.
I think how they are rated at the end of their careers will be similar (assuming neither Berdych nor Tsonga bag that elusive slam) - but how they have approached their careers is obviously not.

I have not denegrated Berdych and Tsonga at all I have pointed out that they have oodles of talent if you want to compare that against Ferrer... so dont misquote me please

You know, it never fails to make me laugh on this forum how people talk about talent. Does anyone on here know tennis talent if it bit them on the backside?
Is a player ranked 250 talented? You bet. Very.
Is a player ranked 5 talented? You bet. Very.
What separates them? Actually very little in reality.
Perhaps more self-belief, that ability to not blink at crunch moments.
Ferrer is insanely talented at tennis, so is Berdych, so is Tsonga, so is Zeballos.
They are all different players with different approaches in how they play but don't for one minute think any of them are pushers, a pair of lungs, just work hard, etc...it does them all a massive disservice. If you we're down you local club and saw Ferrer knocking up on e court next to you, or a guy ranked 250, your mouth would drop open at their ball striking ability.

YvonneT wrote:Actually, I think it helps Ferrer in his consistency to have zero expectations at slams. He can just play his game which is good enough to beat the "best of the rest" without worrying about how the beat the top 4.
It also helps to maintain his ranking to rack up titles in the likes of Auckland, s-Hertogenbosch in the weeks before slams when the top players are preparing for the slams.

Seeing he has beaten Murray 6 times
Nadal 4 times
Djokovic 5 times...

He is not a journeyman he is entitled to have more than zero expectations

lydian wrote:Is a player ranked 250 talented? You bet. Very.
Is a player ranked 5 talented? You bet. Very.........
.................If you we're down you local club and saw Ferrer knocking up on e court next to you, or a guy ranked 250, your mouth would drop open at their ball striking ability.

Well, obviously, but this is not what people talk about. It is like saying all top 100 tennis players are just very good at tennis. But of course they are, the statements people are making are clearly relative. When we say that someone around 100 or so sucks and then we say that the buddy from our club is a great player, we are clearly not saying that our buddy is better than the #100 player.

lydian, is the player ranked 34 talented?

Wow, what a result, just saw it and watched the highlights. Great performance from Rafa. Embarrassment for Ferrer, who might have even thought he had a good chance to win this match after the Zeballos result.

This does change things for me. Before his comeback started, when we couldn't be sure it would even start, and perhaps after the Zeballos defeat, he would have settled surely for 2 titles this year - Monte Carlo and the French Open.

If I was Rafa I would be setting my sights higher now.

Wimbledon for instance - every year he plays he gets to the final, apart from Rosol and his first try. And you have to feel he has a good chance on some of the hard courts as well, who knows?

I don't want to overreact too much to one performance, but it was pretty good. He looks like he's back, basically.

Only thing is, have my doubts about him going off to Indian Wells. Surely he needs a rest. Isn't he making the same mistake he made a few years ago of playing every tournament going? If he plays both IW and Miami, that would be a mistake for me. One of them could be OK.

Would be a major blow for Miami if he and Rog both play Indian Wells and not Miami.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

YvonneT wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:But then you are left asking the question.....
Who in the last analysis is the most successful.. a man who has achieved 20 titles albeit he is now 31yrs old... and according to concensus of opinion has little talent.. just work ethic.
The other two albeit younger who have achieved virtually nothing with oodles of talent but obviously lacking the very thing that Ferrer has and they dont.
Again I say.. I take my hat of to Ferrer his tenacity and hard work has made him a tennis player who will be remembered.
At the moment I cannot see Berdych at any rate carving his name in the Tennis History books.

What a strange post to denegrate Berdych and Tsonga to try to big up Ferrer.
I have no idea why H-N thinks that Ferrer will be remembered any more than Berdych. As has been said, both have one Masters win among other titles. Berdych has multiple wins over Federer at slams, back to back slams wins over Federer and Djokovic, and a slam final.
And as for Tsonga, he was ranked higher than Ferrer over the summer, and is one of a select few with slam wins over Federer, Nadal and Djokovic.
Sure they do not have the mental strength of the very top players, but that's a pretty high standard to judge them by.
I think how they are rated at the end of their careers will be similar (assuming neither Berdych nor Tsonga bag that elusive slam) - but how they have approached their careers is obviously not.

I have not denegrated Berdych and Tsonga at all I have pointed out that they have oodles of talent if you want to compare that against Ferrer... so dont misquote me please

Can I misquote you if I quote you?
You said that Berdych and Tsonga had achieved "virtually nothing" and Ferrer will be remembered but you don't think Berdych will. I disagree on both counts.

Re lydian's post on talent, I have the same annoyance on the subject of mental strength. OK, players get tight and get broken at the end of tight sets, but again, it's all relative. It is really fair to call players who save match points against Federer or who can come back from 2 sets down against Federer at Wimbledon mentally weak or chokers? The odds are stacked so high against anyone beating Federer, Nadal or Djokovic over 5 sets that it must be extremely difficult to maintain belief that you could beat them.

In years to come if all of them end up slamless they will all be seen in a relatively equal light. To seperate them you would then need to assess their other stats such as titles won, slam finals reached etc. It is very hard to judge as Ferrer is very consistent and has the upper hand in mayches against the likes of Berdych and Tsonga. However, he has a pretty dire record against the top players whereas Berdych and Tsonga have caused the top players problems. I suppose it will always come down to personal opinion over who is/was better.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

YvonneT wrote:Actually, I think it helps Ferrer in his consistency to have zero expectations at slams. He can just play his game which is good enough to beat the "best of the rest" without worrying about how the beat the top 4.
It also helps to maintain his ranking to rack up titles in the likes of Auckland, s-Hertogenbosch in the weeks before slams when the top players are preparing for the slams.

Seeing he has beaten Murray 6 times
Nadal 4 times
Djokovic 5 times...

He is not a journeyman he is entitled to have more than zero expectations

Absolutely he should, which is my point really. In slams, that 6, 4, 5 becomes 1, 2, 0.
I mean, I know his chances of a slam are low, but he's had 2 slams plus the Olympics with the advantage of being fourth seed but hasn't to me planned a slam build-up like a top 4 player. Seems like zero expectation to me.
(For example, had Djokovic lost to Wawrinka, Ferrer could have been in the final against Murray, and would have had a real chance of a slam - but he would not have been in the best position to take advantage of that having been playing for the fourth week in a row).

Red wrote:Considering his breakdown in relations with IMG, I'd be surprised if he played Miami.
Personally I don't think he should play IW, but he says he's gonna play.

Thanks for drawing my attention to this IMG situation. I was surprised when Federer dropped Miami. Here is an interesting article I found. I would reccomend it.
http://www.perfect-tennis.co.uk/will-roger-federer-ever-play-an-img-owned-tournament-again/

Henman Bill wrote:

Red wrote:Considering his breakdown in relations with IMG, I'd be surprised if he played Miami.
Personally I don't think he should play IW, but he says he's gonna play.

Thanks for drawing my attention to this IMG situation. I was surprised when Federer dropped Miami. Here is an interesting article I found. I would reccomend it.
http://www.perfect-tennis.co.uk/will-roger-federer-ever-play-an-img-owned-tournament-again/

Nadal also left IMG.

Lydian everyone agrees that ferrer is talented and so are other the other pros. But come on ferrer can't generate the fire power that Tsonga or Berdych can. He is much more limited in his serve and his power off the ground. So in relative terms I would say athletically speaking he has less talent than those two. He lacks the same firepower that those two have and yet accomplishes much more, credit to him for doing it. Yes they all have ability but even among professionals the difference is not just 1 percent, or 2 percent as you sometimes make it. If that was the case would see more than just an occasional upset of the top ranked guys. The gap I think is much bigger lets say between the big 4 and the rest of the top 10, then lets say between a player ranked 50 in the world and 150 in the world. Or even a player lets say between 10 and 50. I would posit that there is much more separation at the very top of the rankings as when you compare the middle to the end or the second tier top ten guys with lets say the other top 50 players.

If Ferrer was just a few inches taller (just a few) and or had the sort of external input of Murray he would be right up there. When he plays Davis Cup surrounded by a team he is a different player.

Although I don't think any of that would have helped last night. Nadal was just too good. That has repeatedly been his problem... and of course having to play Federer when he was just too good too. But he can take comfort from the fact that he isn't the only one to have a career blighted by that tricky pair.

You might be right socal but his H2H with both Berdych and Tsonga
is 2 -1 JWT and 6 - 3 Berdy
However he has acquired the ranking -- whether you want to say its pure hard work, tenacity or no. He cannot have reached those dizzy heights by not having talent. And whatever your opinion is of the other two they have yet to better his achievements... and that is not in any way shape or form denegrating Tsonga or Berdych... to all those it may concern !!!
No he has not won a slam and now at his age never will but he has the right to expect and demand that much of himself. There are those further down the rankings that could well take a leaf out of his book

Yes socal, thats why I was talking from top 5 down. At the pinnacle of every sport you get those few players who simply stand out for a number of reasons, they are outliers on a linear scale from bottom towards the point before the top few. They have an X factor in technique, belief and fitness. From there down its more linear, difference in ability is often down to small differences in those 3 areas. It just gets my goat how many players are disparaged for being seemingly talentless. I slag off Granollers for being agricultural in style but boy is he still talented...but there really isn't that much between him and a guy ranked 127.

Does anyone here enjoy watching Ferrer play?

Not an insult, genuine question.

Haddie-nuff wrote:However he has acquired the ranking -- whether you want to say its pure hard work, tenacity or no. He cannot have reached those dizzy heights by not having talent. And whatever your opinion is of the other two they have yet to better his achievements... and that is not in any way shape or form denegrating Tsonga or Berdych... to all those it may concern !!!

Saying Ferrer's achievements are greater than Berdych's & Tsonga's achievements is certainly not denigrating them, unlike saying that they have achieved virtually nothing. It still depends how you weight the achievements (titles, highest ranking, slam finals, record against top 5 etc) so it's still subjective but Ferrer's got a fair shout on those I agree.

HM Murdoch wrote:Does anyone here enjoy watching Ferrer play?

Not an insult, genuine question.

I enjoy watching Ferrer play. But I did not like the beat-down Nadal handed him at Acapulco.

I find Ferrer a trifle boring beyond 1 set. He's got great focus and application, but his game play is a tad predictable and workmanlike.

I pretty much agree with your Ferrer assessment there lydian.

Great player and a model pro, but doesn't really pass my fairly basic but effective litmus test : just how excited would I be if offered a ticket to one of his matches ....? Not very, to be honest.

In the case of Federer or Nadal, and also (albeit less so) Djokovic and Murray, I would rate the chances of seeing something special from them as pretty high. And there a few other 'lesser' names in that category too, eg Tsonga and Baghdatis IMO.

In contrast, Ferrer for me is a guy who has always impressed with his hard work and dedication to the cause, but ultimately lacks any 'wow factor'

lydian wrote:Yes socal, thats why I was talking from top 5 down. At the pinnacle of every sport you get those few players who simply stand out for a number of reasons, they are outliers on a linear scale from bottom towards the point before the top few. They have an X factor in technique, belief and fitness. From there down its more linear, difference in ability is often down to small differences in those 3 areas. It just gets my goat how many players are disparaged for being seemingly talentless. I slag off Granollers for being agricultural in style but boy is he still talented...but there really isn't that much between him and a guy ranked 127.

Good post lydian can't say I disagree with any of that. Of course if granollers was hitting the ball in the court next to you, your jaw would drop yet compared to other top, top guys we find him less than impressive. The very top guys like you say are outliers who are more than just one or two percent better than the nearest competitors. That is the reason we see such consistent dominance at the top, is because there is a very appreciable and significant talent and ability gap between a Djokovic and even a ferrer. Or a federer at his peak and berdych. But I do agree as you go down the rankings the difference between number 55 and 85 or 105 is not that big. But I don't think that same progression works when you go from number 1 to number 11 player in the world, that gap in ability is actually pretty big. I mean how much of a gap exists between Murray, Djoko, Fed, and Nadal (despite the lower rank) and Ferrer? The gap is just one ranking spot, but in actual tennis ability and accomplishment that one ranking gap is the size of the ocean.

HM Murdoch wrote:Does anyone here enjoy watching Ferrer play?

Not an insult, genuine question.

I will say that the first 5 set ferrer match I watched that Novak wasn't involved in, was Tipsy and Ferrer at the USO and in that match both players had their shotmaking hats on. But frankly even that match was watchable mainly because of tipsy who hit a whole highlight reel's worth of shots in that match because ferrer would keep bringing it back in the court. Still Ferrer produced some highlight shots as well through the course of the match. But even in that great match, which might have been the match of the year that year it was mainly tipsy doing most of the shotmaking and attacking.

Haddie-nuff wrote:You might be right socal but his H2H with both Berdych and Tsonga
is 2 -1 JWT and 6 - 3 Berdy
However he has acquired the ranking -- whether you want to say its pure hard work, tenacity or no. He cannot have reached those dizzy heights by not having talent. And whatever your opinion is of the other two they have yet to better his achievements... and that is not in any way shape or form denegrating Tsonga or Berdych... to all those it may concern !!!
No he has not won a slam and now at his age never will but he has the right to expect and demand that much of himself. There are those further down the rankings that could well take a leaf out of his book

You and I both know Haddie that if Tsonga and Berdych worked and fought like ferrer they would accomplish way, way more at this stage and we would be talking about a big 5 or big 6. I mean could you imagine ferrer's mind and heart in Tsonga's body or Berdych's. He would terrorize the tour. But it is often like that, the players who are smaller or lack a bit of physcial ability often work harder because they feel they have to. The more gifted talent wise or physically the player often doesn't work as hard becasue things have come easier for him, and later in life it is not that ease to just become a harder worker or want it more.

One thing striking about the match with Ferrer was how good he hit his BH, it left Ferrer for dead so many times. I haven't seen him hit it that well since AO2009.

lydian wrote:One thing striking about the match with Ferrer was how good he hit his BH, it left Ferrer for dead so many times. I haven't seen him hit it that well since AO2009.

I hope he perfoms as well at IW - I still think this is a trial/test for him to see how the knee will behave
I hope he doesn´t try to cram too much into his schedule before the clay season really gets going

I agree but the schedule forward isn't too bad. He's playing an exho vs Del Potro today in New York (Madison Sq. Gardens). That'll probably give him a feel for the knee on hard, and if he's not comfortable he'll pull out of IW. However, I think that's unlikely. He's always done well at IW and it doesn't start until Thursday at the earliest so he has plenty of time to rest after Mexico (the exhibition won't be full on) - almost a week. I don't think he'll play Miami, so that will likely give him 3-4 weeks before Monte Carlo. He may also lose early in IW giving him even more time (although if he did I think he'll enter Miami).

Remember MC doesn't start until April 14 and its still only March 4...

lydian wrote:One thing striking about the match with Ferrer was how good he hit his BH, it left Ferrer for dead so many times. I haven't seen him hit it that well since AO2009.

I agree: it was much better than in Chile. What about that post you made about all the areas he looked weak on on his comeback, like movement and core-rotation related issues. Woud you like to dig that up and do another analysis after the Acapulco final?

Indeed HB, we can all see those areas of weakness have improved night and day - and so rapidly too. Clearly his core strength and sharpness has built up rapidly under 'match stress' making strength in his shots go up markedly and his ability to move and return serve similarly. Likewise, his innate feel for angles on the court has returned - this was always only going to take a matter of time on court.

However, perhaps more than anything else, what has changed most markedly is the return of that iron self belief - where is no doubt over execution - that was fragile at best in Chile, and in Brazil to a lesser extent. Much of that comes from winning matches in series as well as feeling freer from pain in the knee and time on court. He's said that in the last few matches he feels he can finally move without worry again -and look at the difference. Before Almagro and Ferrer he hadn't faced anyone of particular note but most of us felt that those 2 would provide real challenges given they're ranked #12 and #5 and adept on clay.

But he stayed mentally strong vs Almagro, returned much better (Almagro has a huge serve - regularly 210K+) and then simply overpowered Ferrer making him look puny which is ridiculous considering he solid #4/#5 and in the form of his career. Infact Ferrer didn't play too badly, he was just chasing shadows as winner after winner swept past him. Whether Rafa can keep this up on HC is a different matter as the surface will throw him for a few matches (and maybe throw him out!) given he's not played on it for 12 months but he's certainly made a statement of intent to the locker room with the result vs. Ferrer.

Well obviously he is fully back and that's that. I'd be all for being cautious if he was struggling but it can't be both ways - either he beats up on Ferrer as usual or he doesn't, and he did.

I'm sure amrit will still keep up his guff about being 8th favourite for RG but I'd say he's pretty obviously the favourite for that event now, we'll see about hard court in due course.

Don't know how anyone could put him 8th favourite for RG. He's certainly top 2 for sure...i.e. not clear #1 as Djokovic is a v.different proposition to Ferrer...assuming the knee holds up. If he wins MC again (or any clay event with Novak in) pre-RG then yes he's No.1 favourite.

and he's your favourite for the RG title!

Rafa was more scary against AlMUGRO, mUG RO played great both sides of the court and even had 3 break points at 4-3 0-40 yet Rafa served the game out with ease and broke him the next game and take the set and match with ease.

Ferrer score line was a bit disappointment considering he was in great form, but thats vintage Rafa, if he plays his best nobody beats him in clay [Including Borg and Fed].

Just wanna check with IMBL where is Rafa now in the fav's list for FO? 20th

Somebody´s pulling somebody´s leg according to William Hill



http://news.williamhill.com/en/a/french-open/tennis-rafa-nadal-favourite-for-french-open/

I was joking when I said he was 8th favourite, to clear that up. I wasn't being serious.

In all honesty I see Djokovic as clear favourite, then Nadal, and then way below these two Federer.
Djokovic is unbeaten since Paris Masters last year, it's a joke.

Red are you IMBL BTW...have been on much recently so no idea if you changed moniker?

I've just watched the full match replayed on Sky. What I found most impressive was Nadal's backhand.

Lydian

bogbrush wrote:Well obviously he is fully back and that's that. I'd be all for being cautious if he was struggling but it can't be both ways - either he beats up on Ferrer as usual or he doesn't, and he did.

I'm sure amrit will still keep up his guff about being 8th favourite for RG but I'd say he's pretty obviously the favourite for that event now, we'll see about hard court in due course.

I pretty much agree with this post, when you drop 2 games to Ferrer who usually battles Nadal much closer in his losses and who is one of the best clay court players out there then you can't use the recovering from injury and not at his best excuse anymore. The man is like what 13-1 with two titles and is the second hottest player on the tour right now. So all this stuff about the imminent demise of Nadal or deeply degraded Nadal is frankly not supported by any facts. I actually think that Nadal could come back even stronger. 7 months to rest and heal the body and mind should not be seen as a complete negative.

I think it comes back to pain in the leg, if his leg isn't hurting he is as good as ever, hopefully that lasts for a very long time.

In my mind I see Nadal and Djoko as 1 and 2 favorites for RG, and I would like to see how the warm up european masters play out between the two in order to decide which one is #1 favorite and which on is #2. Frankly if anyone other than Nadal or Djoko win the RG I will be stunned.

socal1976 wrote:

In my mind I see Nadal and Djoko as 1 and 2 favorites for RG, and I would like to see how the warm up european masters play out between the two in order to decide which one is #1 favorite and which on is #2. Frankly if anyone other than Nadal or Djoko win the RG I will be stunned.

Frankly any one outside Nadal winning is a big upset for me, and I don't think so the upset is coming.