Irish Coaches

The head coaches of the the top two sides in England are Irish. The head coaches of the top three Irish sides are Kiwis. Are Irish coaches not good enough to lead our teams or are there serious flaws in our national coaching progression? And why for instance would O'Shea seem to have no interest in coaching his country?

All 4 provinces will have kiwi coaches come may.

Dont think O'Shea gets on with the IRFU too well.

Mark McCall, coached both Ireland U21s and Ireland A and was a deputy coach for Ulster and then made the head coach in 2004

I'd say that was a fair enough progression path for McCall from the IRFU

With only 4 top jobs, if you leave one you are not going to get another, and would have to prove yourself oversea's.

Look at EOS he couldn't get the Connacht job, and the 4 provinces want to hire the best they can, if these are Irish its a bonus, I don't think its a problem, if an Irish coach proves himself as a coach, he will get the head coach role when its free, if they are not ready then we look outside Ireland, it just happens that at present none of the 4 have an Irish coach ready to step up, and it can be difficult to bring ones back when settled in England and Wales.

O'Shea, McCall, and Simon Easterby, were not given provinicial jobs for one reason or another and have to prove them selves overseas.

I think the deal with the 'Kiwi' coaches is more design than just individual Provinces coming to the same conclusions. I think SH influence, in rugby tactics, strategies and training methods are the desired direction into the immediate future for the IRFU. Why? - Because it's a winning version and the world has become a small place as regards the easy globalisation of good ideas.

So rather than try to do it the Irish way, and to have Irish coaches try to adapt their involuntary and instinctive tendancies away from the more traditional Irish values and over to the SH blueprint, I think the IRFU feel the quicker route is to use SH coaches who can hit the ground running.... and THEN, infuse a more immediate appreciation of their methods amongst Irish coaches who might hope will begin to fill the coaching slots later on.

Is it a perfect plan? No plan is. Is it as good as any other? Yep. The fusion of traditional Irish bull-in-a-china-shop endeavour with some SH 'smarts and frills' could be a very potent engine indeed....BUT, right now, the thing that strikes me as actually doing most suffering is the bull-in-a-china-shop bit.

I think far too many Irish players now seem to think they have the skills that no longer require mad-dog passion on the field. They're wrong. And in the old days, when games started to slide away from Irish sides, it was the uncoachable factor of wild-eyed defiance and honest sweat that often saw us through. That 'unprofessional' and uncoachable extra ingredient is missing in recent years.

Conor O'Shea moved to London in 1995 as a player. Thats nearly 20 years ago.

Theres a lot of talk about politics and backroom shenanigans keeping O'Shea out of Ireland but I suspect he just likes living in the UK.

After 20 years it would surely seem like home.

Played for London Irish
Coached London Irish
Worked for the RFU
Worked for English Institute of Sport
Coached Harlequins
Worked with British Olympic Committee

I just think it doesnt suit him to move to Limerick or Dublin when he can do a similar job on similar pay without moving.

red_stag wrote:Conor O'Shea moved to London in 1995 as a player. Thats nearly 20 years ago.

Theres a lot of talk about politics and backroom shenanigans keeping O'Shea out of Ireland but I suspect he just likes living in the UK.

After 20 years it would surely seem like home.

Played for London Irish
Coached London Irish
Worked for the RFU
Worked for English Institute of Sport
Coached Harlequins
Worked with British Olympic Committee

I just think it doesnt suit him to move to Limerick or Dublin when he can do a similar job on similar pay without moving.

I agree Stag, to the extent that he's probably just comfortable where he is, amongst players he knows and a League he's very familiar with. Why kill the golden goose and all that...

But there is another side to me that says a guy who is Irish, who played for Ireland, who knows his reputation has well and truly spread far enough west to get back the short distance to Ireland, who comes back to his homeland Ireland frequently to give the knowing low-downs and high-ups on the state of Irish rugby, (both at Provincial level when he sometimes helps out in commentary, and at International level where he's a constant public pundit on Ireland's travails, embarrassments, slings and arrows of outrageous downturning fortune! ) ...... a man who has in the meantime been central not only to his own club's success but has breathed life back into the English national side both in the players he presents to it and in his contributing role to the choosing of Lancaster himself... I think such a man is in a very good position to either ................... ahem, how shall we put it? - put up or shut up...... if the IRFU ever did approach him with an offer.

I mean it's all great that Hookie shoots off the missiles of vitriol that everyone seems to hate so much and never intends to coach again, but Conor is different - he's a successful manager/director/coach - ??? any and all of them it seems. He's assisted a lot of organisations across the water with his particular skills, he uses those skills to tut tut Hookie and Pope, to question Irish team selections, to hum and ha at likely Irish replacements, to give the details on why Ireland isn't working, to tell it like it is without the varnish of emotive theatricality.... and yet he doesn't see that he can offer anything practical to the efforts of an International side he once played in?

So yes, he's just happy where he is - and every working man deserves that much if he can achieve it. Unfortunately (or fortunately in my case ) part of me fears too that he doesn't quite believe in the idea that Ireland have the players that could bring themselves and him subsequent glory on the International stage. I think he fears he and his reputation would fall into the mire like the others.

From the little asides and observations, I think he's gaining a lot of personal satisfaction from the exploits of England and the renewed punch of English club sides. To be honest, I don't think he quite needs Ireland to succeed on any distinct emotional level, and yet Irish fans of his probably see his particular Irishness as the reason he'd take the job in the first place.

If his heart was still in this country and he felt confident in his own skills, he'd quickly overcome any 'issues' he might have with the IRFU, name his terms and just take a job offered - at the right price of course. But saying you won't be available in the near future due to respect for a contract signed is one thing and admirably loyal; needlessly adding the line that he'd also hope to continue with Harlequins after his contract expiry date was a little crass and a slap in the face to Irish rugby when he knows how highly he's regarded by (most of) his own people. Maybe his RTE opinions have then too outlived their usefulness to fans of his who listen to his every Lordly word with worshipful ears

To be honest I dont really see him as an "Irish" coach. Same as Easterby.

His Irish fans do though.

It's why they've listened to him so reverentially over the years on RTE. It's why his name is always on the lists of the 'potentials' and is never off the lists of the 'wanted'.

His fans believed he felt 'Irish'...his fans believed his RTE presence was the unspoken audition for the job when it became available. That mood has only increased over the years as his stock has risen across the water.

I'm suggesting that if he has pronounced now that his Irish fans were a little deluded, that he was only talking about Ireland because...he's getting nice weekend money to do so...maybe he should now wave bye bye to RTE too? It'll be a difficult job to keep turning up and saying how things should be when people know he has turned down the chance to prove it.

I'm happy though...so I'm not going to affect anger at his turning down of the job that wasn't even offered to him yet. I just think he's given old Hook a leg up in their continuing 'should'a done this' battles

The simple truth is that O'Shea and McCall haven't really won enough of note as yet. Serial AP trophies and a HEC would propel them into the top coach bracket.

The jury's out on whether top club coaches automatically become top Test coaches, Gatland v Kidney.

Eddie O'Sullivan had his day and it ultimately failed.

Ruddock will surely do a Benitez and step up in the interim. He lives in Ireland, knows the young players, can cope with the IRFU, and has a Grand Slam record.

Fly - O'Shea was a speaker at an IRFU National Coaching Conference last summer. They have an interview with him on IRFU tv. Look like the IRFU doesn't have too much of a problem with him.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv/

Do a search for this:

IRISH RUGBY TV: CONOR O'SHEA AT IRFU THE NATIONAL COACH CONFERENCE
Former Ireland fullback and now Director of Rugby with Harlequins, Conor O'Shea spoke to Irish Rugby TV at the IRFU National Coaching Conference about the importance of coach developm

Sin é wrote:Fly - O'Shea was a speaker at an IRFU National Coaching Conference last summer. They have an interview with him on IRFU tv. Look like the IRFU doesn't have too much of a problem with him.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv/

Do a search for this:

IRISH RUGBY TV: CONOR O'SHEA AT IRFU THE NATIONAL COACH CONFERENCE
Former Ireland fullback and now Director of Rugby with Harlequins, Conor O'Shea spoke to Irish Rugby TV at the IRFU National Coaching Conference about the importance of coach developm

I'm not the one saying he has, Sin. You need to read closer. I'm saying that's an excuse put out there by someone...it does the media circuit off and on. That means someone keeps saying it or suggesting it...and I'd guess the ones suggesting it are the people who would love O'Shea to be part of the Irish system at some level. I'm not in their camp and I don't think the IRFU thing is anything much to talk about. He's an adult and would get the relationship to work on a professional basis if it required it..so too are the guys in the IRFU. Personal prawblems wouldn't stop him taking a job if he truly wanted that job.

I wouldn't have an issue with him getting involved in the IRFU (admin side of things)... but I'm not the greatest fan (as might be guessed!) of his opinions on the game itself - they slide like sand dunes in a desert. But that's just my opinion

Maybe I should ask for the job as opinions seem to count for much? What do you say, Sin? Would you come onboard as my assistant? I'd throw you out to those journalist lions...you'd handle them better

If I was your assistant Fly, I'd severely edit your posts

Far too verbose

Aha!!! So you don't read my posts! I guessed that

The trick is to only read the first sentence........... and then the last one. And as they're usually the same thing, jobs done!