v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Group 2

Today's second Last 16 group pits another 4 sporting giants against each other, with Golf, athletics, football and ice hockey fighting it out for your votes

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted.

Michael Johnson- Track & Field- Championed by 88chris05

"I was eight years old in 1996 and, as a result, the Atlanta Games of that year are the first Olympic Games I can remember properly - and for any sports fan, that's a serious footnote in your memory. It says much about the greatness of the man I'm writing about here that, whenever I think back to that summer of 1996 and the Olympics, the first thing to enter my head is never the Games themselves, and nor is it a collection of moments. Instead, it's just one name which crops up instantly - Michael Johnson.

It took some nerve - or, you might even say, some well-placed arrogance - to wear those golden running spikes, and it must also have taken a large helping of self-belief and stubbornness to ignore the plethora of coaches who had told him right throughout his college and junior career to abandon his unusual 'duck' style of running in favour of the traditional high knee lift, long strides and pumping arms which we usually associate with sprinting. But both the running spikes and that unique style had me hooked from 1996 onwards and I became determined to find out all I could about the man who came away with three gold medals on the track from those Games.

With the emergence of Usain Bolt in recent times, it's easy to forget that, just ten to fifteen years earlier, there was one man on the track who blew everyone's mind and redefined the parameters just as much as the brilliant Jamaican. In fact, I'd argue that Johnson, in many ways, redefined them even more than Bolt has.

For starters, his dominance of the 400m throughout the nineties must be right up there with the greatest spells of dominance in any one event in history. Before Johnson, whose incredible feats earned him the nickname 'Superman', no man had ever won the 400m title at back to back Olympics. Johnson did this at a canter, taking the gold medal in the one lap event at Atlanta in '96 and at Sydney four years later. He won four successive world titles at that same distance, too, from 1993 right up until 1999. His fifty-four consecutive 'finals' wins in the 400m is, of course, a record - so far ahead of his peers in that event is he, that comparisons are pretty pointless.

But there were more notable 'firsts' in Johnson's career. The 100m-200m double is, of course, a rare achievement, the sort which only the giants of sporting history (Owens, Lewis, Bolt etc) have managed. But do you know what's been an even rarer achievement in men's track and field? The 200m-400m double. Because once more, before this remarkable Texan came along, absolutely nobody had managed to win the two events together at the Olympics - or at any major championships, for that matter. Not content with making history once by doing so at the 1995 World Championships in Gothenburg, Johnson made it two 'doubles' in as many years at the following summer's Olympics. And which man has replicated this feat since? That's right - absolutely none of them.

Usain Bolt's double of the 100m-200m (or even his 'double double' of doing the 100m-200m act at two successive Olympics, a feat which he controversially shares with Carl Lewis) make him one of a few, but Johnson's achievements really do make him one of a kind.

I think it's key to remember, also, that the 400m takes on a very different dynamic to the shorter sprints. Unlike the 100m or the 200m, the 400m discipline takes a different type of training, a large amount of kidology and tactics. There is no element of just running flat out as fast as you can; pacing yourself, the concept of even-paced running, adapting to running two bends ect all make it a different ball game. Genuinely, I feel that Johnson's ability to adapt so perfectly to both events make him a serious contender to be considered the finest track athlete the world has ever seen.

Johnsons' gold medal tally in the 200m (two World Championships, one Olympics) doesn't read quite as staggeringly (but is still only surpassed by a certain Mr Bolt, mind you!) but, as I mentioned above, I genuinely think that Johnson expanded the ideas of what was possible in this event more than anyone else has thus far in his own way. In track and field, particularly in the sprints, you seldom see a world record which lasts more than three or four years, generally speaking. It's amazing what the human body can do when you're setting its every faculty towards a certain mark - for instance, Roger Bannister's four minute mile in 1954 was considered superhuman and, almost, a case of someone doing the impossible, and yet it lasted as a world record for a mere six weeks.

So then, let's keep in mind that Pietro Mennea's 200m world record of 19.72 seconds had stood for a whole seventeen years by 1996, remarkable in a sport which is pitted so often against the clock. At the Olympic trials that year, Johnson edged it out with a 19.66, a fantastic feat in itself, but what he did in the Olympics themselves in that event will stay with me forever. Even as an eight year old, I knew I was watching something remarkable. But it's only looking back that I can fully appreciate the magnitude of Johnson's gold medal winning performance.

Johnson won the gold in a staggering 19.32 seconds, a whole .34 of a second ahead of his own personal best (by an absolute mile the most that anyone has improved a short sprint record since the introduction of electronic timing in the sixties), and .36 ahead of second-placed Frankie Fredericks who, just weeks earlier, had beaten Johnson and was fancied by many to do so again (a shell-shocked Fredericks remarked after the race, ""If I'd have known that Michael was going to run 19.32, I wouldn't have bothered showing up.""). Ato Boldon, who took the bronze medal, went to Johnson after the race and bowed, later commenting that Johnson's race that night was ""fifty years ahead of its time.""

Now, I know what you're all thinking. Rather than fifty, the record 'only' lasted for twelve years (still a hell of a long time by track and field standards, of course) before Usain Bolt narrowly beat it with his wonderful 19.30 in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. But as I said before, it's amazing what can be done by the human body when its sole focus is on a time which you have the luxury of shooting for. Basically, if someone can run a 19.32, you know that it's a real possibility and, in many ways, inevitable that someone can eventually go 19.30 or better, like Bolt has. Edging a world record out like that is the norm.

However, totally obliterating one like Johnson did most certainly isn't. With Mennea's 19.72 came the realisation that humans could and eventually would be running in the 19.6 bracket. With Johnson's 19.66 three months before Atlanta came the realisation that maybe, just maybe, we could see a high 19.5 time in our lifespan if we were lucky. Absolutely nobody, however, would have ever dared conjour up the the thought of a man eating up 200m of track in a low 19.3 time. It boggled the mind, tore up all logic and left a world-wide audience, including BBC commentator David Coleman, saying ""this man surely isn't human!""

When Bolt broke the 200m world record, there were loud cheers in my house. However, when Johnson ran that 19.32 in Atlanta, there was nothing but a stunned silence, followed by a series of glances which seemd to be asking, 'Did I really just see that?'

And of course, Johnson's 400m world record still remains intact at 43.18 seconds, despite thirteen and a half years having passed since he finally set it at the 1999 World Championships in Seville. Again, it's worth noting that, in track and field, world records that can last a decade or more come at a premium. From the top of my head, I do believe that Michael Johnson is the only man to have set a world record lasting a decade or longer in two individual events since the introduction of electronic timing, and it says a hell of a lot about the man's accomplishments that you have to scroll a fair way down his CV to find a fact as impressive as that!

In all, Johnson stepped on to a podium to collect thirteen medals at either the Olympic Games or World Championships during his career - and ever single one of them was gold.

And as if his towering accomplishments weren't enough, he still manged to show what sportsmanship should be all about in 2008 when, after his relay team mate Antonio Pettigrew admitted under oath that he had used performance enhancing substances throughout the late nineties and early twenty-first century, Johnson voluntarily returned his Gold medal won with Pettigrew and two others in the 4x400m relay at the Sydney Olympics of 2000. In an age where far too many are adopting a relaxed attitude to doping in sport, Johnson's gesture, to me at least, added to his greatness even more, if that were at all possible.

It's a terrible shame that, a certain Mr Carl Lewis aside, track and field athletes have often struggled to receive their dues over in the States, because in Michael Johnson they really did have one of the finest sportsman to have graced the planet. To me, Johnson is everything a sporting great should be. "

Pele- Football- Championed by paperbag_puncher

"Only when I sat down to write this article did the sheer scale of what I was attempting to do hit me. This article should really write itself, yet there are no words that can accurately describe the greatness of 'The King of Football' There are few human beings throughout history in any walk of life who have reached the iconic status of Pele.
“My name is Ronald Reagan, I’m the President of the United States of America. But you don’t need to introduce yourself, because everyone knows who Pele is.”
Ronald Reagan

Like most young boys I grew up hearing stories of this mythical man from Brazil who could create magic with his feet. I’d always been told of his greatness and happily accepted it but I was doing the man a great disservice by simply accepting it. Only as I got older and researched further did I realise how great he actually was. I am genuinely grateful that I have agreed to write this piece as it has given me the opportunity to revisit and explore the career of arguably the greatest sports person to have graced this earth.

There is no doubt in my mind that Pele was the most complete player of those who are generally mentioned in the greatest ever debates. Blessed with an unbelievable combination of pace, power, balance and close control he beat defenders at will making everything look effortless. Capable of the unpredictable and the sublime he was very much ahead of his time. Two footed and lethal in the air he was the ultimate goal scorer. The famous stat of 1281 goals in 1363 games is testament to this.

Pele said in 2006: ""For 20 years they have asked me the same question, who is the greatest? Pele or Maradona? I reply that all you have to do is look at the facts - how many goals did he score with his right foot or with his head?""

Pele made his debut for Santos at the tender age of 15 scoring on his debut in 1956. By the time the 1957 season came around he was a first team regular and finished as the league’s top scorer. Just 10 months later he was called up to the Brazilian national team scoring in a 2-1 defeat to Argentina making him the youngest ever international scorer at 16 years and 9 months. He would go on to become and still is Brazil’s top goal scorer with a remarkable 77 goals in 92 games.

1958 was Pele’s breakout year and he announced himself to the world in style. He won his first major title the Campeonato Paulista with Santos scoring a record 58 goals along the way (a record that still stands) He was selected for the 1958 World Cup at the insistence of of his team mates despite being injured, which shows the regard the 17 year old was already held in. He played a pivotal role scoring the winner against Wales in the quarters, a hat-trick against France and another brace Vs Sweden in the final on his way to becoming the youngest ever World Cup Winner.

Brazil repeated the trick in 1962 but did it without Pele who injured himself in the second game having looked ominously bright in the opening game. The 1966 was even worse for him. Pele was ruthlessly and cynically targeted by opposing defences meaning he missed the loss to Hungary and was never at his best for the two games he did play. Without their talisman the defending champions were eliminated in the first round.
He got his redemption in 1970 inspiring perhaps the greatest team of all time to a third world cup success. Pele at the peak of his powers won the player of the tournament and provided us with two of his most iconic moments. Had his lob from the half way line against the Czechs or his audacious dummy to round the Uruguayan goalie resulted in goals they surely would have been 2 of the greatest in World Cup history.

At one stage it was universally accepted that Pele was the greatest footballer of all time. In recent years it has almost become fashionable to dismiss his claim and achievements in favour of two little Argies. There are two sticks that are usually used to beat him which are contradictory for me. True he never tested himself in Europe. Having been named a ‘national treasure’ by the Brazilian Government and not being allowed to be ‘exported’ he spent his best years in his native land. However, we do have some clues as to how he would have fared had he moved to a big European club. His goals record and performances at international level leave me unequivocally convinced that he would have burned it up in any league. Also Santos (mainly to be able to afford his wages) regularly toured and faced the biggest clubs in Europe where Pele showed he was still on another level. The other criticism is that he was part of the greatest international team ever and had world class team mates around him which somehow should dilute his success. Many of these same team mates also predominantly played in Brazil yet this isn’t held against the likes of Garrincha, Rivelino, Tostao or Jairzinho who regularly had to play second fiddle to Pele and his Santos team. Nor is it held against one Lionel Messi who is a part of the greatest team I have ever seen. Like Messi now, Pele was the undoubted jewel in a beautiful crown.

For me, to be worthy of being called the greatest sports person of all time you need to tick several boxes. You must be supremely talented and have a strong argument to be the GOAT in your own sport. In my opinion you also have to have transcended your own sport and have made a widespread universal and lasting impact. With all due respect to the big hitters who have been voted through so far, most people have no idea who Bradman, Merckx etc are. While this may not be a popularity contest Pele’s notoriety and worldwide acclaim stemmed solely from his prodigious talent and countless achievements. He wasn’t a character, he wasn’t a loveable rogue. He did all his talking with his feet and his reputation is a product of his talent alone.

I have used a lot of words despite originally stating words could not do the great man justice. Still for me Pele is a treat best enjoyed visually. Watching him nutmeg two defenders and rounding the keeper or seeing him effortlessly flicking the ball over a defender’s head and volleying home is still jaw dropping even today. I will leave you with some quotes from his peers and contemporaries who say it a lot better than I ever could.

""I told myself before the game, 'he's made of skin and bones just like everyone else'. But I was wrong.”
Tarcisio Burgnich, the Italy defender who marked Pele in the Mexico 1970 Final

“The difficulty, the extraordinary, is not to score 1,000 goals like Pele – it’s to score one goal like Pele.”
Carlos Drummond de Andrade, Brazilian poet

“The greatest player in history was Di Stefano. I refuse to classify Pele as a player. He was above that.”
Ferenc Puskas

“After the fifth goal, even I wanted to cheer for him.”
Sigge Parling of Sweden on a 5-2 defeat by Brazil in the 1958 FIFA World Cup Final

“I arrived hoping to stop a great man, but I went away convinced I had been undone by someone who was not born on the same planet as the rest of us.”
Costa Pereira on Benfica’s 5-2 loss to Santos in the 1962 Intercontinental Cup in Lisbon

""Pele was the greatest – he was simply flawless. And off the pitch he is always smiling and upbeat. You never see him bad-tempered. He loves being Pele.”
Tostao
“When I saw Pele play, it made me feel I should hang up my boots.”
Just Fontaine

“Pele was one of the few who contradicted my theory: instead of 15 minutes of fame, he will have 15 centuries.”
Andy Warhol

“Pele was the only footballer who surpassed the boundaries of logic.”
Johan Cruyff

“His great secret was improvisation. Those things he did were in one moment. He had an extraordinary perception of the game.”
Carlos Alberto Torres

“I sometimes feel as though football was invented for this magical player.”
Sir Bobby Charlton

""Pele played football for 22 years, and in that time he did more to promote world friendship and fraternity than any other ambassador anywhere.”
J.B. Pinheiro, the Brazilian ambassador to the United Nations

Malcolm Allison: “How do you spell Pele?”
Pat Crerand: “Easy: G-O-D.”
British television commentators during Mexico 1970

Pelé is the greatest player of all time. He reigned supreme for 20 years. All the others – Diego Maradona, Johan Cruyff, Michel Platini – rank beneath him. There's no one to compare with Pelé.
—West Germany's 1974 FIFA World Cup-winning captain Franz Beckenbauer

The best player ever? Pelé. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are both great players with specific qualities, but Pelé was better.
—Real Madrid legend Alfredo Di Stéfano
"

Wayne Gretzky- Ice Hockey- Championed by Azzy Mahmood

"If you’re looking for a G.O.A.T., then look no further than Wayne Gretzky, or as he is more commonly known, ‘The Great One’. Gretzky is the best ice hockey player of all-time, by some considerable distance, with an incredible number of records set during his 20-year NHL career that will never, ever be broken.

In ice hockey there are a wide variety of stats. To make this brief, I’ll only talk about the three main stats – points, goals and assists. Points = goals + assists in case you’re unfamiliar with ice hockey (please do ask questions in the thread, I’m happy to answer them).

Points: Gretzky is the leading point-scorer in NHL history, with 2,857 points. Second-placed Mark Messier has 1,887 points. Only one player in NHL history has scored over 200 points in a single season – which Gretzky did four times. And only Gretzky and Mario Lemieux have ever scored more than 155 points in a season. Points-wise, Gretzky was the greatest player by far.

Goals: Gretzky scored 894 goals in his career, 93 more than second-placed Gordie Howe. He took the 5th most number of shots in history. A devastating stat is that he leads all players in short-handed goals – with 73 – showing that, even playing with the equivalent of 9 men, he was still head and shoulders above the rest. The most number of goals in one season is 92 – by Gretzky. He also has the most number of hat-tricks – 50 in total. As the stats show, Gretzky was the best goal scorer in hockey history.

Assists: Gretzky provided 1,963 assists which, you may notice, is more than any other player has even when combining goals and assists. Even if he had never scored a goal in his career, he’d still lead the points table. That is a measure of just how great Gretzky was.

When Gretzky retired in 1999, he held 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, and six All-Star game records. Most of these will never be beaten. He was immediately inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, waiving the normal 3-year waiting period. The NHL retired his jersey number 99 league-wide, the only player to have had this recognition. If you see a sports player with ‘99’ on his shirt, it is almost certainly a tribute to The Great One.
In terms of peer recognition, Gretzky captured nine Hart Trophies as the league’s MVP, five Lester B. Pearson Awards as the players’ MVP, five Lady Byng Trophies for sportsmanship and performance, and two Conn Smythe Trophies as playoff MVP. During his career he also won four Stanley Cups with the Edmonton Oilers –the ultimate trophy in ice hockey - and led the Los Angeles Kings to the Stanley Cup Finals as well. Following his playing career, he became Executive Director of the Canadian men’s ice hockey team, leading them to Olympic Gold at the 2002 Winter Olympics.
In all of sporting history, no transfer, draft pick or trade has ever caused as much emotional outpouring as ‘The Trade’. On 9 August 1988 Canada was in uproar as Edmonton traded Gretzky to Los Angeles for $15m (at that time, a hefty sum), plus an exchange of other players back-and-forth. Canadian politicians demanded that the Canadian government block the trade, and the owner of Edmonton was vilified to such an extent that his own fans burned effigies of him outside their arena. Gretzky himself was unable to talk at the press conference, such was his love for his team, as he cried in front of hundreds of journalists. The Trade has been referenced in films and on TV ever since.

‘The Trade’ did have one very positive effect. It made California, previously oblivious to ice hockey, stand up and take notice of the sport – Gretzky is often credited with being single-handedly responsible for popularizing the sport in California.

In addition to all this, Gretzky was chosen to be the final torch-bearer at the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, lighting the cauldron. Nickelback had Gretzky in their video for ‘Rock Star’, and reportedly wouldn’t make the video if they couldn’t get him in it. Gretzky also appears in all the TV adverts for Visit California – a measure of how much he is loved there, that a Canadian sportsman could be an ambassador for their state.

So there it is. I hope this has opened a few people’s eyes to the greatness of Wayne Gretzky, a man who I believe truly is the Greatest Of All Time. He won everything there was to win, he broke every record there was to break, and he made the sport what it is today. There will never be another like Wayne Gretzky."

Got to be Gretzky, completely dominated his sport for 17 years, and its a contact sport as well.

Pele - the icon of the most global sport there is

Pele first - as VTR said, THE iconic figure in the most global sport. For me also a better all-round player than Maradona (who was all left foot and dribbling ability).

Close between Nicklaus and Gretsky as runner up - Nicklaus the golfing GOAT, but not by a huge amount from Tiger, while Gretsky is a clear GOAT of a slightly less widespread sport.

Johnson had his moments, and certainly his 200m WR was one of those times that you just stop and go 'wow', but a bit over-matched in this company.

Maradona was also a brilliant playmaker who could pick out a deadly pass but I digress.

Johnson, Gretsky or Pele is the choice, much like in the other group Nicklaus doesn't deserve the same level of 'sporting' recognition as the others. Johnson is a hero of mine but it's going to have to be Pele.

Despite my love of ice hockey and desire for Gretzky to progress and despite my huge admiration for Nicklaus and desire for him to progress....it's got to be Pele. I mean he's, well, he's Pele isn't he? 'nuff said.

Pele for me. Not a lot to say really, all greats and glad to see theyre all getting votes, but only one man beats Pele IMO and he aint in this group.

hjumpshoe wrote:Pele for me. Not a lot to say really, all greats and glad to see theyre all getting votes, but only one man beats Pele IMO and he aint in this group.

Thanks, hjumpshoe. Look forward to your vote for Sobers tomorrow.

Went for Pele, who still just about hangs on to his status as the greatest footballer of all time for now. I championed Johnson, yes, but he wasn't directly up against the Brazilian then!

dummy_half wrote:Pele first - as VTR said, THE iconic figure in the most global sport. For me also a better all-round player than Maradona (who was all left foot and dribbling ability).

Close between Nicklaus and Gretsky as runner up - Nicklaus the golfing GOAT, but not by a huge amount from Tiger, while Gretsky is a clear GOAT of a slightly less widespread sport.

Johnson had his moments, and certainly his 200m WR was one of those times that you just stop and go 'wow', but a bit over-matched in this company.

Perfect summary from Dummy. It surely has to be Pele.

I also went for Pele.

The Golden Bear.

No brainer

Pele

Has to be Pele, I'm afraid.
As has been said, he is possibly the best, and best known, player in the history of the most popular sport on the planet.

G - N - P - J

guildfordbat wrote:

hjumpshoe wrote:Pele for me. Not a lot to say really, all greats and glad to see theyre all getting votes, but only one man beats Pele IMO and he aint in this group.

Thanks, hjumpshoe. Look forward to your vote for Sobers tomorrow.

Haha nah it aint Sobers mate, brilliant though he was. For me, The Don is the cricket GOAT, ive posted my top 5 before though and the only man ahead of Pele was Ali. Each to their own mind.

an interesting group this one, if of a lower standard than the other group today. I'm going to rule out Johnson, great though he was he's a small step down from the other three IMO who were either the stand-out GOATs of their sport or very close to it (Pele, with the caveat being that he was a footballer so more global participation). I think my current GOAT contenders looks something like:
Federer Bradman Ali the three stand-outs
then a group of outstanding sportsmen without quite the level of excellence/transcendance of those three: Jordan, Maradona, Pele, Merckx, SRR, Nicklaus, Gretsky, Owens, Phelps, and probably a couple of others I've forgotten. So three of this group are in this batch, and at the moment I'm struggling to split them. Tempted to go with Gretsky for the level of dominance he displayed. Against that is the fact that the sport he played in had lesser participation levels than the other two (particularly Pele).

Pele as he became synonimous (probably spelt wrong) with football. However, could easily go for Gretsky and Nicklaus using the same reasoning.

As a golfer I've got to go for.....Pele!!

Doesn't matter what my own sport is to me he was everything that epitomised the beautiful game when it still was the beautiful game, not the grotesque over commercialised corrupt monster it has now become. As I said in an earlier round how many kids..when they dropped a football at their feet and began to move with it at any time in the 60's & 70s didn't have the wee commentator voice in their heads saying "Pele".

Having said that, when I first picked up a golf club in my youth I wanted to be Nicklaus. Obviously golf isn't the intense physical sport that a few others are however that doesn't mean golfers at the top level don't possess the key features that define sporting greatness (dedication, talent and an iron willed determination to succeed and be the best...don't think Nicklaus would be found wanting in any of those things)

Both Pele and Nicklaus are great ambassadors for their sport and I hope both go through and that takes nothing away from Johnson or Gretsky, Johnson had a great Atlanta Olympics and one of the great "wow!!" moments in sport (when he smashed the 200m record. Gretsky I had to read about as I'm unfamiliar with the ins and outs of Ice hockey. Great achievement to stay at the top of what is a fairly intense physical sport for so long. Clearly he had something very special.

JAS wrote:As a golfer I've got to go for.....Pele!!

Doesn't matter what my own sport is to me he was everything that epitomised the beautiful game when it still was the beautiful game, not the grotesque over commercialised corrupt monster it has now become.

I'll bet you also liked the world when you could call a poof a poof and give your children a hand across their bottoms.

You can still call a poof a poof.

Why wouldn't you give your children a whack when appropriate?

Remember Mac is a lily livered liberal. He wouldn't do anything that The Guardian and Charlie Brooker wouldn't approve of.

kwinigolfer wrote:Why wouldn't you give your children a whack when appropriate?

Like say if they told you they were a poof ?

McLaren wrote:

JAS wrote:As a golfer I've got to go for.....Pele!!

Doesn't matter what my own sport is to me he was everything that epitomised the beautiful game when it still was the beautiful game, not the grotesque over commercialised corrupt monster it has now become.

I'll bet you also liked the world when you could call a poof a poof and give your children a hand across their bottoms.

Aye, them would be the days when I was still sharp enough to work out the meaning behind silly comments and concerned myself as to why people made them.

Had enough of my Golf forum collegues tbh.

You should be banned from playing for two months with all your crazy anti comments.

stop being such a poof Oakey

mystiroakey wrote:Had enough of my Golf forum collegues tbh.

You should be banned from playing for two months with all your crazy anti comments.

Nooooo!!! I've got Hoylake, Muirfield, North Berwick and Gullane 1 coming up shortly. I'll therefore flout any ban :-/

GOLF is the sport of Kings pal. Its ubber cool(havent you seen Fowler and hillbilly Bubba in the rap Vid )

Just because you are embarassed by it...

JAS wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Had enough of my Golf forum collegues tbh.

You should be banned from playing for two months with all your crazy anti comments.

Nooooo!!! I've got Hoylake, Muirfield, North Berwick and Gullane 1 coming up shortly. I'll therefore flout any ban :-/

Ok I will let you off dude.

I am playing Princes and St Georges next month

To be fair Oakey...We should get kiddie locks fitted on the golf boards to stop Mac getting out

Mac on a leash

Have gone with Pele, can see a good argument for Nicklaus and was a bit conflicted on this but find myself asking whose exclusion from the final 8 would seem more incongruous to me and that has to be Pele

I'm still sticking with Johnson despite his defeat by a cockroach and the fact Gretzky was in the Mighty Ducks.

Nicklaus was/is a fat bore and Pele was sh!te.

Has to be Jack.

Pele

johnson, best 400m runner ever and 2nd best 200m runner ever, and the WR in 1996 made me collapse.

Pele didn't look too impressive in all those grainy videos I've seen (altho to be fair they were mainly porn)

Wow, I did not see my man Gretzky coming last in this group!

Azzy Mahmood wrote:Wow, I did not see my man Gretzky coming last in this group!

In fairness Azzy I doubt if many on here have ever been exposed to or seen any ice Hockey. I too am somewhat surprised.

I think I'm more surprised that so many people voted for Pele tbh

Pele wins this handsomely and hence my vote.

Gretzky had no chance to win in this groupings simply because the others played in sports with world wide audiences while the Great One played in relative obscurity outside of North America.

However many of his accomplishments and records are virtually unassailable which cannot be said of any of the others can it?

The absurd thing about Gretzky is that i've seen american journalists who have him second behind Bobby Orr.

Gretzky also highlights the nostalgia with Bradman in this country, he has almost 1000 more points than any other player despite playing less games than his nearest rivals, anywhere else and he trounces the others.

That's American journalists for you...

I think the equivalent in football is the Premier League scoring record. Alan Shearer has 260 goals - if Gretzky was a footballer he'd have had over 500, in less games.

I must be missing something but I fail to see how Bradman can be considered so much better than Gretzky.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The absurd thing about Gretzky is that i've seen american journalists who have him second behind Bobby Orr.

Gretzky also highlights the nostalgia with Bradman in this country, he has almost 1000 more points than any other player despite playing less games than his nearest rivals, anywhere else and he trounces the others.

I'd still argue that if (and it's irrelevant because this wasn't the case) Mario Lemieux hadn't been so riddled with injuries and had played near the number of games of Gretsky then he would be very close - he has 1.85 points per game to Gretsky's 1.91 and was robbed of his potential and still has incredible stats. But Gretsky was incredible and definitely deserves to be on this list for me