Welsh Regions Signings/Departures/Rumours 2013 (Scarlets set to offer James "cub" Davies a contract)

First topic message reminder :

Ospreys

In

Tito Tebaldi (Zebra) – Confirmed
Rhodri Williams (Scarlets) - Rumour

Out

Kahn Fotuali'i (Northampton Saints) - Confirmed
Jonathan Thomas (Bayonne/Worcester Warriors) - Rumour
Jonathan Humphries (Scotland Forwards Coach) - Confirmed
Campbell Johnstone ( Russian Club) - Confirmed
George Stowers (Tasman) - Confirmed

Scarlets

In

Steven Shingler ( London Irish) –Confirmed
Ed Jackson (London Welsh ) – Rumour
Andrew Coombes (Dragons) - Rumour
Gareth Delve ( Melbourne Rebels) - Rumour
Serge Lilo (Wellington Lions) - Rumour
John Barclay (Glasgow Warriors) - Confirmed
Nick Cummins (Western Force) - Rumour
Farid Sid (Perpignan)- Rumour
Opeti Fonua (Agen) - Rumour
Brett Deacon (Leicester Tigers) - Rumour
Regan King (Backs/Skills Coach) - Rumour
Genesis Mamea (Wellington) - Rumour
Darran Harris (Pontypridd) - Rumour


Out

Tomas vallejos cinalli (Pampas XV) – Confirmed
Gareth Maule (London Irish/Munster) – Rumour
Adam Warren (Cardiff)- Rumour
Scott Williams (Cardiff) – Rumour
Sione Timani (Agen) – Confirmed
Rhodri Williams (Ospreys) – Rumour
Tavis Knoyle ( Gloucester) – Confirmed
Gareth Davies ( Cardiff) –Rumour
Owen Williams (Leicester Tigers) – Confirmed
Jonathan Edwards (Released) – Confirmed
Andy Fenby (London Irish) - confirmed
Morgan Stoddart (Retired) - Confirmed
Dan Newton (London Scottish) - Confirmed
Kieron Murphy (London Welsh/Edingburgh) - Rumour
George North ( Northampton Saints)- Confirmed
Rheon James (Cornish Pirates)- Confirmed
Richie Pugh (Released) -Confirmed
Rhys Jones (Released) - RumourConfirmed
Dale Ford (Released/Bristol) - Confirmed
Samson Lee (Glouceste) - Rumour
Peter Edwards (Released) -Confirmed
Craig Hawkins (Released) - Confirmed
Craig Price (Leicester Tigers) -Rumour


Dragons

In

Ross Wardle (Bedwas) - Confirmed
Richie Rees (Edinburgh) - Confirmed
Luciano Orquera (Zebre) -Rumour
Martin Muller (Cheetahs) - Confirmed
Juan Gomez (Pampas XV) - Rumour
Netani Talei (Edingburgh) - Confirmed
Francisco Chaparro (Stade Francias) - Confirmed
Kris Burton (Treviso) - Confirmed
Rhys Thomas (Wasps)- Confirmed
Malakai Fekitoa (Auckland) - Rumour



Out

Andrew Coombes (Scarlets) – Rumour
Dan Lydiate (Racing Metro)- Confirmed
Steve Jones (Retired)- Confirmed
Tom Brown (Released/Jersey) - Confirmed
Tondi Chavhanga (Released) - Confirmed
Iestyn Thomas (Retired) - Confirmed
Josh Tyler (Released) - Confirmed
Hywel Stoddart (Released) - Confirmed

Blues

In

Filo Paulo (North Harbour) - confirmed
Matthew Rees (Scarlets) Confirmed
Liam Davies (confirmed - until end of season)
Gethin Jenkins (Toulon) - Confirmed
Rhys Gill (Saracens) - rumoured
Adam Warren (Scarlets) - rumoured
Scott Williams –(Scarlets) – rumoured
Tavis Knoyle (Scarlets) – rumour
Gareth Davies ( Scarlets) - rumour

Out

Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro) - not confirmed
Tom James (Exeter Chiefs) -confirmed
Richard Mustoe (retirement) -confirmed
Fau Filise - (retirement) rumour
Ceri Sweeney (Exeter Chiefs) - Confirmed
Leigh Halfpenny (Clermont) - Rumour
Michael Paterson (Sale Sharks) - Confirmed
Campese Ma'afu (Nottingham) -Confirmed

Knoyle won't get much game time at Gloucester. Robson and Cowan are on the books and playing well. Bath might be a better option with only Cook the academy graduate signed up though Micky Young is expected to sign for them as well.

As Sam says, Knoyle to Gloucester does not feel liek a good fit. They have spent a lot of money on Jimmy Cowan and Robson is a real talent.

So it is only Turks that rate Knoyle then? Unlucky Glaws.

Can we find some way to get a deal with the rebels they ensure delve comes here and we send tav down there?

I think if he does go to the jeff he may end up shining as he is better suited to a physical skirmish than a high tempo game. It may even lead to some folk changing their opinions of him. Glaws makes sense, Nigel really rates him, said Tav was the most talented scrum half he has worked with, and far better at his age that spikey mikey was.

There are mutterings around the CAP that George North is going to the Blues, the kid does not want to leave Wales as it might damage his Wales opportunities and the Scarlets want the money as they are so much in debt. Also the WRU are pushing for this as it will enhance the North, Cuthbert, Halfpenny combination.

LD, I could see North going to Cardiff for the reasons you mention, but I can't see the Blues paying the transfer fee. If they don't pay it then he'll be going for free and so the Scarlets won't make any money, so it won't be attractive to them to offload him.

The reasons why I can't seem them paying it are twofold: firstly, I can't see Peter Thomas paying for it out of his own money - he's said in the past that he didn't want to sign welsh internationals as they are not value for money, so I can't see him paying a load of money up front to buy a player out of their contract, and then pay them loads when they hardly feature. The other option is that the buy out is done with the WRU funding, but would that be allowed? It barely covers wages, so spending it to pay off an existing contract may not be an option either.

Griff wrote:LD, I could see North going to Cardiff for the reasons you mention, but I can't see the Blues paying the transfer fee. If they don't pay it then he'll be going for free and so the Scarlets won't make any money, so it won't be attractive to them to offload him.

The reasons why I can't seem them paying it are twofold: firstly, I can't see Peter Thomas paying for it out of his own money - he's said in the past that he didn't want to sign welsh internationals as they are not value for money, so I can't see him paying a load of money up front to buy a player out of their contract, and then pay them loads when they hardly feature. The other option is that the buy out is done with the WRU funding, but would that be allowed? It barely covers wages, so spending it to pay off an existing contract may not be an option either.

Griff, Peter Thomas has already said that he wants Cardiff back at the top table of European rugby, and he has already stated that he wants good quality "Welsh" players, he has also hinted that he might be using some of his own fortune to do this, trust me, the man has an ego the size of Wales, and if he splashes the cash himself he will let people know what he is doing and why. He already has Matthew Rees, it looks like he will be getting another centre to replace Jamie Roberts, do not be surprised if he pays for Gareth Delve and Scott Williams as well, also he already has Gethin coming back.

what i gather the wru are willing to pay for his release from the scarlets, and place him with the blues. possibly to turn one region against another? 4 regions united under the (PRGB) is too much of a threat to roger.

pioden gorllewin wrote:what i gather the wru are willing to pay for his release from the scarlets, and place him with the blues. possibly to turn one region against another? 4 regions united under the (PRGB) is too much of a threat to roger.

I hear rumblings of this too; putting their eggs into 2 baskets rather than 4. So, instead of trying to emulate an Irish or New Zealand model where they try to have 4 strong provinces/regions, we're going down the Italian route, with 2 main sides and a couple of really crap sides that even get tonked by the current Dragons. Can't wait for that.

but griff the wru are not having it all their own way. with the regions having signed an agreement not to play any wru centrally contracted players, they will be unable to move the likes of north to the blues at present.

south wales evening post are now running the story that tavis knoyle will probably leave the scarlets with a year left on his contract:

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/Wales-scrum-half-Tavis-Knoyle-latest-linked-Parc/story-18585819-detail/story.html#axzz2PIOq92WP


WALES scrum-half Tavis Knoyle has become the latest player to be linked with a move away from Parc y Scarlets.

As the Scarlets continue to be embroiled in a row over the potential loss of star wing George North, it has emerged that 22-year-old Knoyle could also be leaving the region.

​on the move Tavis Knoyle is the latest player to be linked with a summer move away from Parc y Scarlets, even though the scrum-half has a year left on his deal.
.Knoyle, like North, has a year remaining on his contract in Llanelli, although the Evening Post understands the Scarlets would be willing to let him go this summer.

Knoyle has been part of Wales's squad for the autumn Tests and Six Nations this season, but hasn't featured for the Scarlets since mid-January because of a combination of international commitments and niggling injuries.
Earlier this year head coach Simon Easterby conceded that it would be unlikely that the region would be able to keep hold of all four of its young scrum-halves — Knoyle, Aled Davies, Rhodri Williams and Gareth Davies — even though all are contracted for another season.

It is understood that Knoyle has attracted the attention of clubs in France and the Aviva Premiership, notably Gloucester, who are coached by former Scarlets boss Nigel Davies.

The Glynneath product joined the region in 2009 from the Ospreys and made an immediate impact, earning his first cap on Wales's tour of New Zealand the following summer.

The last of his nine caps came against Argentina in November, when he was preferred to British Lion Mike Phillips in the No. 9 jersey.

The union and regions are meeting now over the centrally contracted players issue. If all four stick together on it then maybe North, Faletau, and possibly Lydiate could stay put. Hopefully that would stop first choice players swapping regions which would aid massively in growing regional support etc.

That's key, I think. If the WRU starts actively assisting certain regions to take players from other regions, rather than helping those players' current regions keep hold of them, then that's the final straw.

that's the bit i'm struggling to understand. why would the wru assist in helping moving north to the blues, but won't asist the scarlets in keeping him. wouldn't that be the most obvious and cheapest option? if the wru are thinking of having a "mini team wales" based at the blues with north,lydiate,faletau, jon davies etc......what would be the point of the other regions?

To feed 'mini Team Wales', presumably.

I really don't see North coming to the Blues

In theory the Blues would like him, with Tom James leaving, Ben Blair gone and Mustoe retiring.

However, Peter Thomas and the Blues board do not want another first choice international on the books - they are looking a 2nd and 3rd choice players who are unlikely to come back injured.

The Blues would never agree to pay the Scarlets anything for North's contract, and the chances of the cushioning up the the WRU are pretty small.

As I have said, apparently, North was offered to the Blues and Ospreys on a WRU funded contract, and both refused - perhaps if the WRU buy out North contract but the new contract is between the player and the regions it might happen.

Unless this central contract meeting happens now and the WRU up their funding - North is either leaving the country, or staying at the Scarlets.

Have to say, I am impressed with North refusing France and doing his best to stay put in Wales - he can be added to the list of players dedicated to stay in Wales along with Warburton and Halfpenny (his reluctance to leave would be an incentive to any region looking to sign his actually)

pioden gorllewin wrote:that's the bit i'm struggling to understand. why would the wru assist in helping moving north to the blues, but won't asist the scarlets in keeping him. wouldn't that be the most obvious and cheapest option? if the wru are thinking of having a "mini team wales" based at the blues with north,lydiate,faletau, jon davies etc......what would be the point of the other regions?

The Scarlets don't want North by the sounds of it - he refused the contract offer they presented to him, and based on the claims that he is desperate to stay in Wales (so desperate he has come to the WRU about it!), I can only assume that the offer the Scarlets gave was completely unacceptable.

The WRU would be critisised even more if they threw money at the Scarlets for threatening to sell their welsh internationals while letting Roberts and Lydiate leave after their regions begged for assistance.

We also don't know the details of the offer made to the Blues (the offer the Blues rejected as far as I am aware) or Ospreys, or if the Scarlets were willing to come to the negotiating table

wales606 wrote:

pioden gorllewin wrote:that's the bit i'm struggling to understand. why would the wru assist in helping moving north to the blues, but won't asist the scarlets in keeping him. wouldn't that be the most obvious and cheapest option? if the wru are thinking of having a "mini team wales" based at the blues with north,lydiate,faletau, jon davies etc......what would be the point of the other regions?

The Scarlets don't want North by the sounds of it - he refused the contract offer they presented to him, and based on the claims that he is desperate to stay in Wales (so desperate he has come to the WRU about it!), I can only assume that the offer the Scarlets gave was completely unacceptable.

The WRU would be critisised even more if they threw money at the Scarlets for threatening to sell their welsh internationals while letting Roberts and Lydiate leave after their regions begged for assistance.

We also don't know the details of the offer made to the Blues (the offer the Blues rejected as far as I am aware) or Ospreys, or if the Scarlets were willing to come to the negotiating table

In other words, we don't know much.

pioden gorllewin wrote:that's the bit i'm struggling to understand. why would the wru assist in helping moving north to the blues, but won't asist the scarlets in keeping him. wouldn't that be the most obvious and cheapest option? if the wru are thinking of having a "mini team wales" based at the blues with north,lydiate,faletau, jon davies etc......what would be the point of the other regions?

I must admit, this outrageous scenario did cross my mind.

Similarly, I have no problem with Dan Lydiate wanting to leave the Dragons - he's been great for us and he must get tired of losing more games than he wins; but if it turns out that the WRU has lent / given money to another region for them to sign him, without also making money available to the Dragons so we can make him an equal financial offer, then that can't be right. Same goes for Toby.

the scarlets offered george a contract, and that contract is still on the table if he wants to stay at the scarlets. once george turned down the offer, the scarlets had very little option but to explore the possibility of selling him. roger himself stated that he wants the regions to run a long term business sustainability. that in my mind what the scarlets are doing, £250k is a lot of money to turn down on a player who will probably only play 10 games for us next season.

no other region can accept north at present cause of the agreement between the regions not to play a centrally contracted player. i still see this as an attempt by the wru to divide the regions against each other.

it is very much a control thing by roger in my eyes. why hasn't he tried to revive the PRGB? possibly because it is chaired by the independant judge Sir Wyn Williams? so he wouldn't have the final say if there a disagreement. This new meeting he is trying to organise is very much on his terms, and his way of retaining as much control as possible.

Well said, Pioden.

pioden gorllewin wrote:the scarlets offered george a contract, and that contract is still on the table if he wants to stay at the scarlets. once george turned down the offer, the scarlets had very little option but to explore the possibility of selling him. roger himself stated that he wants the regions to run a long term business sustainability. that in my mind what the scarlets are doing, £250k is a lot of money to turn down on a player who will probably only play 10 games for us next season.

no other region can accept north at present cause of the agreement between the regions not to play a centrally contracted player. i still see this as an attempt by the wru to divide the regions against each other.

it is very much a control thing by roger in my eyes. why hasn't he tried to revive the PRGB? possibly because it is chaired by the independant judge Sir Wyn Williams? so he wouldn't have the final say if there a disagreement. This new meeting he is trying to organise is very much on his terms, and his way of retaining as much control as possible.

Agreed and when I read about this proposed summit this morning I wrongly assumed it was at last going to be a proper PRGB get together.
I was way off and this gets more farcical by the day. Wonder how the regions will respond to this invitation?

regions have come back by the looks of things and want to by-pass roger. they have asked to speak to the full board of the wru rather than just roger. i suspect they want the full wru board to know what's really going on. it's reported here in the guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/apr/01/george-north-welsh-rugby-union-wales-regions

"We want to speak to the full board of the WRU because we want to be sure that they know directly what our position is. The game board needs to get to work very quickly but that will only happen if the union is prepared to concede ground rather than try to claw it back."

"My fear is that the WRU would rather see the regions go to the wall and then move in because they would not be taking on any liabilities," said a regional official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "The lack of funding is affecting not just regional rugby but the club game that underpins it. The union seems to think that it only needs to focus on the national team and the academies, but that is a dangerously narrow view."

When I read up on the public attack on the Scarlets I was actually on the WRU's side. But they neglected to mention that an offer had been made to North, so the Scarlets looking for a plan B isn't such a bad thing. Although something has to be wrong if George went to the WRU about it, maybe a bit of a naf offer? I'm for the central contract idea, but the proposal needs to be revised. I would love to see lydiate, Roberts and North stay in Wales as it is going to help grow the regional base. The loyalty of players like Halfpenny, North, Biggar and all the Jones' has to be commended at times like these. Disapointed in Roberts. I know the Blues are in a mess but he was there from the beginning and experienced the good times they had. He should have stayed put and helped them rebuild and get back to winning silverware.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Wonder how the regions will respond to this invitation?

"Regions to say no to WRU’s contracts summit";

See other "WRU speaks out" thread;

Robin Davey tweeted that Dragons will possibly bring in 6 players this summer to strengthen their squad. Richie Rees has already been confirmed coming from Edinburgh. Possibly an Italian 10 in Burton or Orquera. Rumours that Cheetahs lock Muller and another SA TH will also arrive. That's 4 players, what will be the other two positions the Dragons will strengthen?

Another transfer announced today former Wales U20'S and Scarlets centre Rheon James has signed for Cornish Pirates. Big ball carrying centre who a lot expected big things from. Unfortunately injury has hampered his progress in the game. Hopefully this move will work out for him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22025688

On the Dragons forum a poster suggests we will sign Juan Gomez the Argentinian. It is feasible, given he was at Leeds and Darren does like signing from players he has played with before (Bedford). So maybe that's the prop.

I think we will also sign a backrower seeing as Tom Brown is probably released and obviously Danny is off and I also think we may sign a twelve.

That said, Davey is a chod and often posts tweets without substance, probably desperately trying to act like he's in the know.

Risca Rev wrote:On the Dragons forum a poster suggests we will sign Juan Gomez the Argentinian. It is feasible, given he was at Leeds and Darren does like signing from players he has played with before (Bedford). So maybe that's the prop.

I think we will also sign a backrower seeing as Tom Brown is probably released and obviously Danny is off and I also think we may sign a twelve.

That said, Davey is a chod and often posts tweets without substance, probably desperately trying to act like he's in the know.

To be fair Tom Brown has always been decent when I've seen him play. Is it cause the emergence of Ieuan Jones as the back up 8 for Faletau that he's being released?

Yeah, I'm a bit miffed about Tom Brown if it's true. Always seems very good when he's played. Why not keep him?

I'm always quite happy/proud that the Dragons have been putting out nearly all welsh matchday 15s for the last couple of seasons - only really Tuilagi and Chavanga of late, plus Nimmo, but they're all injured/rested so much that they rarely all play together. Anyway, I'm a bit worried that we may be stretching our NWQ quota if all of these overseas signings actually happen. Is someone else off to make way for more NWQ? Nimmo can go to be honest - hasn't done much. I've got no problem with NWQ players, as long as they're quality. But they cost, so I appreciate it's a difficult balancing act for the coaches/regions.

Also, Pioden can I make a request. Steffan Jones has signed a 2 year extension at the dragons so I guess he can come off the rumoured OUT list now.

Good news for the Dragons that Steffan has signed an extension. Agree with you there griff. Nimmo is useless for a giant of a man. Isn't there some other Irish prop aswell?

Actually quite surprised Jones has resigned, he was annoyed at one point that he wasn't getting time, and there was a bit of interest surrounding him, since then Ive seen Dan Evans be particularly average at 10 a few times!!

The Irish prop is Tim Ryan who I don't think has played a game yet for the Dragons. Nimmo although a popular member of the squad by the looks of things, hasn't offered much on the field. Both Nimmo and Ryan signed 2 year contracts, so I guessing will be around next season.

Tim Ryan was meant to be the answer to all of our scrummaging problems but I have never seen him play. Complete waste of money.

Griff wrote:Tim Ryan was meant to be the answer to all of our scrummaging problems but I have never seen him play. Complete waste of money.

Depends what he's on. Was only on a semi-pro contract out it Italy don't forget, and by rights Buckles and Coundley et al have been lifted from our Prem teams so we have to send cover both ways.

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:Tim Ryan was meant to be the answer to all of our scrummaging problems but I have never seen him play. Complete waste of money.

Depends what he's on. Was only on a semi-pro contract out it Italy don't forget, and by rights Buckles and Coundley et al have been lifted from our Prem teams so we have to send cover both ways.

What I mean is that he wouldn't have come here to play for free. So, to play no games (OK maybe 1 or 2 away games???) is not value for money, even if he's on a smallish contract. If he's on a 'pay as you play contact' then fair enough, but I would have remembered that at the time he signed as it's quite unusual.

Quite a bit was made of his signing too, and considering his former clubs, he must be on a fair bit.

I wouldn't be sad to see Nimmo go. All beard, no trousers. A grunt vacuum.

Nimmo hasn't been the abbrassive force I was hoping before but I won't be too gutted if he has another season to try and shine.

Cudd has been our best signing I think

Cudd's getting better with every game.

Definitely, +2 for Cudd. Commentators keep mentioning his small stature, but that's been working to his advantage as a real menace at the breakdown and on the loose ball. Great to see someone out of favour at one region then coming good at another. That's how it should be ideally. We should share out resources better. Aled Brew is a great example of that. Yes, we're not the most fashionable of regions, yes we're not in the HC, but playing some rugby at Pro12/Amlin level has to be better than sitting on the bench or wearing your best suit to the game in the HC. As I've said before, just a few more players from other regions out of favour, and bringing home a few more ex-pats, and the Dragons would be pretty competitive IMO.

We'd still need to offer much more in attack - personnel is only one of the issues there. We'd need to shore up our defence, too.

i thought Aaron Coundley had a fairly good game against the Scarlets - been out a long time with injury,hope he can kick on

Bring back Brew, as much as I like Chav he simply doesn't play enough games.

And when he does play, we don't make best use of him - we've brought him back on the crash ball before now, which is one the stupidest things I've seen. Another time I remember Tom Prydie fielding a high ball and with Chavhanga outside him, he kicked it. I couldn't believe it.

Very true Luckless, the sad thing is when he gets the ball and hes in postition he very normally scores !

All he needs is to be put in a bit of space. He's an absolute flyer.

It all goes back to the tight five. There are no real threats there with ball in hand bar converted back rower Coombsy and since we lost Brew no grunt in the backs to commit defenders. Result is we are one of the easiest teams to defend against in pro rugby despite some undoubted attacking talent. Until we beef up the front five we may as well have Appleyard and Dazzles on the wings.

Dazzles, I haven't heard that one before!

Much improved Sione Timani looks to have signed for Agen. Shame as he was one of the few ball carries we had in our squad. Also looks like flanker Jonathan Edwards and promising winger Dale Ford are too be released too.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/timani-gets-up-to-speed-for-tahs-before-flight-to-france-20130405-2hbxk.html

Shame about Timani, he his been a real stand out for me when he has played. Not too suprised by Jedward going, he is getting on, and I guess it means Dan Thomas is deemed ready to step up at last. But Dale Ford going is worrying, unless we have a signing soon in the back three then things are looking grim.