The Times' opinion on the Lions

Making other plans

Chris Ashton
Ben Foden
Sean Lamont
Andrew Trimble
Rhys Priestland
James Hook
Andrew Sheridan
Ross Ford
Stephen Ferris
Geoff Parling

Waiting by the phone

Conor Murray
Jonny Wilkinson
Craig Gilroy
Matt Scott
Simon Zebo
Dan Lydiate
Tom Croft
Billy Vunipola
Johnnie Beattie
Ryan Grant

In the departure lounge

Tim Visser
Alex Cuthbert
Sean Maitland
Jamie Roberts
Greig Laidlaw
Jonathan Davies
Dan Biggar
Dan Cole
Euan Murray
Tom Youngs
Dylan Hartley
Jim Hamilton
Paul O’Connell
Donnacha Ryan
Richie Gray
Ian Evans
Jamie Heaslip
Chris Robshaw
Kelly Brown

On the plane

Leigh Halfpenny
Rob Kearney
Stuart Hogg
George North
Brian O'Driscoll
Manu Tuilagi
Ben Youngs
Mike Phillips
Jonathan Sexton
Owen Farrell
Adam Jones
Gethin Jenkins
Cian Healey
Rory Best
Richard Hibbard
Alun Wyn Jones
Joe Launchbury
Sam Warburton
Justin Tipuric
Sean O’Brien
Tom Wood
Toby Faletau

Thoughts? Harsh on Parling and Paul James and Ryan Jones (not even mentioned)? Kind on one of Tom Youngs and Hartley (fair to assume two English hookers won't go).

Farrell on the plane?? Surely they mean Andy Farrell?
Also no Ryan Jones?

I wouldn't say Rob Kearney is on the plane, far from it. Faletau is another who I wouldn't be so sure about.

I don't think there'll be many Irish players there. I'd say SOB, Healy, Best, BOD and Bowe. If POC gets back into the swing of things he'll go.

In fairness to Faletau, who is his competition? Morgan is injured, Heaslip's performances a mixed bag, Wood is not an 8, Parisse and Picamoles not eligible. He's easily finished the strongest of the eligible 8s.

Unless you think that Nick Easter will be getting a call...

Youngs and Hartley - jeez never saw that coming !

I wouldn't have said Launchbury was ahead of Ian Evans, and surely Dan Cole goes as second choice tighthead behind Adam Jones (is there another credible candidate??).

I really don't think BOD is "on the plane" either. Needs a big finish to the season with Leinster in my view.

I think Jonny Wilkinson will be waiting by the phone a very very long time.

why is POC in dep lounge lydiate by phone, where is Ryan jones Tommy Bowe, why is Farrell on the plane...stupid article

Because Farrell has had one bad game this season r.e wales

100%beefy wrote:why is POC in dep lounge lydiate by phone, where is Ryan jones Tommy Bowe, why is Farrell on the plane...stupid article

POC is still the stand out second row while there are plenty of backrows.

Farrell had a good season overall.

POC WAS stand out not anymore....AWJ/Evans/Launch/Parling/Ryan etc all on form and fit

Farrell's lack of composure puts him at 3 behind Sexton and Biggar...but cos Dad is going he must!

So Gatland said that they had pretty much 2/3s of the squad already, realistically the following places are available;


Loose-head prop;

In squad; Jenkins, Healy

1 ticket left; Marler, Vunipola, Grant, James, Corbisero, Sheridan


Tight-head prop;

In squad; Jones, Cole

1 ticket left; Ross, Murray


Hooker;

In squad; Hibbard, Best

1 ticket left; Youngs, Ford, Hartley, Owens, Rees


Second-row;

In squad; Jones, Evans, Parling, Launchbury

2 tickets left; Gray, Ryan, Combs, Hamilton, Lawes, O'Connell, Hines


Flanker;

In squad; Tipuric, Wood

3/4 tickets left; Robshaw, Warburton, Brown, Jones, O'Brien, Croft, O'Mahony, Armitage


Number-8;

In squad; Faletau

2/3 tickets left; Heaslip, Beattie, Morgan


Scrum-half;

in squad; Philips, Youngs

1 ticket left; Care, Murray, Laidlaw


Fly-half;

In squad; Sexton, Farrell, Biggar


Centre;

In squad; O'Driscoll, Roberts, Tuilagi, Davies

0/1 ticket left; Barritt, Marshall, Scott, Twelvetrees


Winger;

In squad; North, Cuthbert

2/3 tickets left; Visser, Gilroy, Maitland, Ashton, Brown, Zebo, Bowe


Full-back;

In squad; Halfpenny

1/2 tickets left; Hogg, Kearney, Goode

[quote="reallybored"]So Gatland said that they had pretty much 2/3s of the squad already, realistically the following places are available;


Loose-head prop;

In squad; Jenkins, Healy

1 ticket left; Marler, Vunipola, Grant, James, Corbisero, Sheridan


Tight-head prop;

In squad; Jones, Cole

1 ticket left; Ross, Murray


Hooker;

In squad; Hibbard, Best

1 ticket left; Youngs, Ford, Hartley, Owens, Rees


Second-row;

In squad; Jones, Evans, Parling, Launchbury

2 tickets left; Gray, Ryan, Combs, Hamilton, Lawes, O'Connell, Hines


Flanker;

In squad; Tipuric, Wood

3/4 tickets left; Robshaw, Warburton, Brown, Jones, O'Brien, Croft, O'Mahony, Armitage


Number-8;

In squad; Faletau

2/3 tickets left; Heaslip, Beattie, Morgan


Scrum-half;

in squad; Philips, Youngs

1 ticket left; Care, Murray, Laidlaw


Fly-half;

In squad; Sexton, Farrell, Biggar


Centre;

In squad; O'Driscoll, Roberts, Tuilagi, Davies

0/1 ticket left; Barritt, Marshall, Scott, Twelvetrees


Winger;

In squad; North, Cuthbert

2/3 tickets left; Visser, Gilroy, Maitland, Ashton, Brown, Zebo, Bowe


Full-back;

In squad; Halfpenny

1/2 tickets left; Hogg, Kearney, Goode

[/quote/]

LH - Corbs, James is better but in the name of balance
TH - Murray
HK - Ford Lions Balance and frankly neither English hooker is much good
SR - Hines and Ryan. Ryan is a good SR and can cover 2 of the BR positions to a very high standard. Would
also use one of the other tickets for POC instead of Launchbury
BR - Warburton, Robshaw (as a BS), Brown, O'Brien
N8 - Beattie, Morgan (again Ryan provides cover)
N9 - Laidlaw Better tourist and Lions selection for balance
10 - Hook instead of Bigger. Its just all the same otherwise. Farrell / Bigger show me the difference
C - Scott[/b
W - [b]Maitland, Bowe (better than Ashton in a full body cast), Gilroy, and Visser (for want of anything
better)
FB - Kearney, Hogg (though his half arsed attempt on Fofana did make me worry)

Held up at the airport bar:

Ryan Jones (driver)
Cipriani (ticket collector)
Danny Care (relapsed)
Gavin (taking a pee)
ROG (on phone to bookies)
Tindall (settling the tab)

Now that is one little bar team.

O'Connell is an interesting one. Due to recurrent injuries he's done very little but there is precious little in the way of quality in the second rows across all four nations.

gregortree wrote:Held up at the airport bar:

Ryan Jones (driver)
Cipriani (ticket collector)
Danny Care (relapsed)
Gavin (taking a pee)
ROG (on phone to bookies)
Tindall (settling the tab)

Now that is one little bar team.

you forgot ashton.....took a dive

gregortree wrote:Held up at the airport bar:

Ryan Jones (driver)
Cipriani (ticket collector)
Danny Care (relapsed)
Gavin (taking a pee)
ROG (on phone to bookies)
Tindall (settling the tab)

Now that is one little bar team.

Ryan Jones???

Griff wrote:

gregortree wrote:Held up at the airport bar:

Ryan Jones (driver)
Cipriani (ticket collector)
Danny Care (relapsed)
Gavin (taking a pee)
ROG (on phone to bookies)
Tindall (settling the tab)

Now that is one little bar team.

Ryan Jones???

Think he is talking about a bloke that he knows rather than Wales' outstanding player!

It is a little odd...pick a side based on the AI's where the 4 sides did play the SH sides including Australia, then pick a side based on the sides playing eachother- and not playing the sH sides or Oz and you'd get two wildly varying sides...one primarily on the latter.

Players who perhaps did perform against the SH sides may get left behind for players that didnt and more importantly, players that perhaps didnt perform vs SH sides, yet did against 6N sides will go...interesting...

I know old fashioned centres are so last year and I can just about buy the positions being littered with back row but I just don't get props like Tuilagi.Probably the most overhyped player around currently.Can someone please explain what I am missing?He is a big unit but so was Cyril Smith!

Taylorman wrote:It is a little odd...pick a side based on the AI's where the 4 sides did play the SH sides including Australia, then pick a side based on the sides playing eachother- and not playing the sH sides or Oz and you'd get two wildly varying sides...one primarily on the latter.

Players who perhaps did perform against the SH sides may get left behind for players that didnt and more importantly, players that perhaps didnt perform vs SH sides, yet did against 6N sides will go...interesting...

Of course I see what happened now. England are so focused on the SH now that they struggle against NH sides. Lucky against France. lucky against Italy and smashed by Wales. They must be banking on SH sides beating France Ireland and Wales only to then face England who are finely tuned to beat them and lift the Trophy.

Rubbish I hear you say. Well you started it

dragonbreath wrote:

Taylorman wrote:It is a little odd...pick a side based on the AI's where the 4 sides did play the SH sides including Australia, then pick a side based on the sides playing eachother- and not playing the sH sides or Oz and you'd get two wildly varying sides...one primarily on the latter.

Players who perhaps did perform against the SH sides may get left behind for players that didnt and more importantly, players that perhaps didnt perform vs SH sides, yet did against 6N sides will go...interesting...

Of course I see what happened now. England are so focused on the SH now that they struggle against NH sides. Lucky against France. lucky against Italy and smashed by Wales. They must be banking on SH sides beating France Ireland and Wales only to then face England who are finely tuned to beat them and lift the Trophy.

Rubbish I hear you say. Well you started it

Taylorman has a valid point

Do you select players that has won a 6Ns championship or do you select players who have and are capable of beating SH sides in their own back yard, its not a rubbish query

I still wouldn't take Farrel. He's far too one dimensional and will restrict any open play. I don't believe he's had one bad game against Wales as some have said, we just showed him for what he is . . . . a poor mans Dan Bigger especially when on the back foot. He's done little other than kick goals when playing at the highest level and he's proved when the pressure is on he bottles it. Sexton, Bigger, hell we should even go back to Priestland before Farrel earns the jersey.

overlord, agree about farrel. if the posters who complain about biggar feel he cant get the line going, side step etc .etc. look at farrels game, and you will fall asleep with boredom.

dragonbreath would have hook instead of biggar, because he is a different type of player, instead of taking 2 alike. biggar and farrell

we dont want hooks kind of different. and the game plan now suits biggar.

in fact, the more he is developing at international level I can see biggar as a mix between the two types of fly half. he is far more involved in more aspects of the game than farrell.

dragonbreath wrote:

Taylorman wrote:It is a little odd...pick a side based on the AI's where the 4 sides did play the SH sides including Australia, then pick a side based on the sides playing eachother- and not playing the sH sides or Oz and you'd get two wildly varying sides...one primarily on the latter.

Players who perhaps did perform against the SH sides may get left behind for players that didnt and more importantly, players that perhaps didnt perform vs SH sides, yet did against 6N sides will go...interesting...

Of course I see what happened now. England are so focused on the SH now that they struggle against NH sides. Lucky against France. lucky against Italy and smashed by Wales. They must be banking on SH sides beating France Ireland and Wales only to then face England who are finely tuned to beat them and lift the Trophy.

Rubbish I hear you say. Well you started it

Errm, Taylorman's a Kiwi, not English

Rather makes your last sentence look more than a little silly

Luckily Walsh is now an AUS resident, so he will not be reffing the Lions.
This allows Gatland to pick some English players who have beaten AUS before, and who will not be blown off the park by the ref.

That depends on what the english players do to warrant the whistle. Will be disappointed if its english players who give away the highest penalty count in the lions.

Poorfour wrote:In fairness to Faletau, who is his competition? Morgan is injured, Heaslip's performances a mixed bag, Wood is not an 8, Parisse and Picamoles not eligible. He's easily finished the strongest of the eligible 8s.

Unless you think that Nick Easter will be getting a call...

A penetrating analysis of Johnny Beattie's performances. Even a token gesture would have been appreciated.

I'm loving how one game has transformed Owen Farrell into overrated and Dan Biggar into a certainty to travel!

They are both pretty similar players in my view, except Farrell is a better goal kicker and tackler.

Both are behind Sexton, by some distance.

Also funny how so many people who are paid to give their views on the game and have many years of experience in doing so seem to think that Farrell is a definite tourist and, in a number of cases, a likely starter. Yet he is dismissed on here as being utterly rubbish by many people.

gavstar wrote:overlord, agree about farrel. if the posters who complain about biggar feel he cant get the line going, side step etc .etc. look at farrels game, and you will fall asleep with boredom.

dragonbreath would have hook instead of biggar, because he is a different type of player, instead of taking 2 alike. biggar and farrell

we dont want hooks kind of different. and the game plan now suits biggar.
in fact, the more he is developing at international level I can see biggar as a mix between the two types of fly half. he is far more involved in more aspects of the game than farrell.

And how exactly do you know what the game plan is??. Please tell I am sure your sources are first class

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Taylorman wrote:It is a little odd...pick a side based on the AI's where the 4 sides did play the SH sides including Australia, then pick a side based on the sides playing eachother- and not playing the sH sides or Oz and you'd get two wildly varying sides...one primarily on the latter.

Players who perhaps did perform against the SH sides may get left behind for players that didnt and more importantly, players that perhaps didnt perform vs SH sides, yet did against 6N sides will go...interesting...

Of course I see what happened now. England are so focused on the SH now that they struggle against NH sides. Lucky against France. lucky against Italy and smashed by Wales. They must be banking on SH sides beating France Ireland and Wales only to then face England who are finely tuned to beat them and lift the Trophy.

Rubbish I hear you say. Well you started it

Errm, Taylorman's a Kiwi, not English

Rather makes your last sentence look more than a little silly

Ah ! He should have said, everyone knows Kiwis are incapable of talking rubbish. My sincere apologies to Kiwi's everywhere, not speaking rubbish at this very moment

no way will the lions game plan include any showboating, risky passes, blind alley breaks or bambi on ice stepping infront of tacklers before being turned over.

so maybe i should have said i know what the game plan won't be !

as for farrell being a better kicker than biggar, there could be some debate on that . dan is top points premiership scorer, you didnt see him kick in this six nations as 1/2p has been our kicker for some time.

but as all good kickers do, he stepped up and did the kicking no problem when 1/2 p couldn't.

also he is more invoved in the games than farrell. we'll see anyway won't we.

gavstar wrote:no way will the lions game plan include any showboating, risky passes, blind alley breaks or bambi on ice stepping infront of tacklers before being turned over.

Haven't you just described the classic Welsh fly half?

I would take Farrell and Sexton,Dan Biggar offers nothing that Farrell doesn't. Farrell was the best fly-half in the tournament aside from the last game but he has never played a match of that magnitude before and seems to bounce back from disappointment. Sexton is class and second only to Dan Carter when it comes to all round game play as a fly-half.
Ben Youngs would not get near the plane if I had any input before the six nations he was my first choice but he has shown again that he hasn't got the temperament for big occasions, he screwed up massively against Ireland in 2011 and was missing against Scotland and France in the World cup, you'd expect that from a guy in his first season as an international rugby player but you'd think he'd have learnt from it by now and on Saturday he was anonymous. I can't help but think that if he goes he'll do an O'Gara. On the other and Mike Phillips appears to have the head for big occasions, another scrum-half I'd consider if he has a strong end to the season is Chris Cusiter, defensively he's superb and could negate Will Genia, which is their main threat. Currently I'd go for a starting line up op:

1. Healy
2. Ford
3. Jones
4. Evans
5. Gray
6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Beattie
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Tuilagi
13. Bod
14. Halfpenny
15. Hogg

I picked the front row because they're solid in the scrum and in the loose like extra flankers, similarly with Evans and Gray, the back row will dominate the break down with Tipuric and Warburton which will allow Beattie to run riot.
Phillips turns up for the big games and Sexton is our best all round fly-half, North is a powerful runner and Halfpenny and Hogg will be able to cover kicks and return them amply either by boot or by punting.
On the bench I'd have Grant and Murray as well as Hibbard, I'd have O'Connell to come on for the last few minutes for his experience and control, I'd have Kelly Brown because he covers all three positions. I'd have Laidlaw and Farrell on the bench because they can come on and control the game, Laidlaw covers two positions as does Farrell, lastly I'd have Maitland because he covers the back three and is experienced when it comes to the hard pitches in Australia and will know the players very well.

123456789 wrote:I would take Farrell and Sexton,Dan Biggar offers nothing that Farrell doesn't. Farrell was the best fly-half in the tournament aside from the last game but he has never played a match of that magnitude before and seems to bounce back from disappointment. Sexton is class and second only to Dan Carter when it comes to all round game play as a fly-half.
Ben Youngs would not get near the plane if I had any input before the six nations he was my first choice but he has shown again that he hasn't got the temperament for big occasions, he screwed up massively against Ireland in 2011 and was missing against Scotland and France in the World cup, you'd expect that from a guy in his first season as an international rugby player but you'd think he'd have learnt from it by now and on Saturday he was anonymous. I can't help but think that if he goes he'll do an O'Gara. On the other and Mike Phillips appears to have the head for big occasions, another scrum-half I'd consider if he has a strong end to the season is Chris Cusiter, defensively he's superb and could negate Will Genia, which is their main threat. Currently I'd go for a starting line up op:

1. Healy
2. Ford
3. Jones
4. Evans
5. Gray
6. Warburton
7. Tipuric
8. Beattie
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Tuilagi
13. Bod
14. Halfpenny
15. Hogg

I picked the front row because they're solid in the scrum and in the loose like extra flankers, similarly with Evans and Gray, the back row will dominate the break down with Tipuric and Warburton which will allow Beattie to run riot.
Phillips turns up for the big games and Sexton is our best all round fly-half, North is a powerful runner and Halfpenny and Hogg will be able to cover kicks and return them amply either by boot or by punting.
On the bench I'd have Grant and Murray as well as Hibbard, I'd have O'Connell to come on for the last few minutes for his experience and control, I'd have Kelly Brown because he covers all three positions. I'd have Laidlaw and Farrell on the bench because they can come on and control the game, Laidlaw covers two positions as does Farrell, lastly I'd have Maitland because he covers the back three and is experienced when it comes to the hard pitches in Australia and will know the players very well.

Oh dear....Scottish fan...Ford? Not Best or Hibberd....Jones because he is a flanker?!!! Laidlaw before Youngs...Grant and Murray not Gethin and Cole? Maitland? Tuilagi...couldn't catch cold....oh dear

gavstar wrote:no way will the lions game plan include any showboating, risky passes, blind alley breaks or bambi on ice stepping infront of tacklers before being turned over.

so maybe i should have said i know what the game plan won't be !

Expect to see wave after wave of big runners battering the Aussies. The Lions will go after them in the scrums in a big way. I think the strongest scrummagers will be picked so that Adam Jones and whoever at loosehead.

12345678 dan biggar hasn't played in a game of that magnitude before either !!!!! he has played his first 6 ns and it is the first time he has played 5 consecutive games for wales.

where you get the idea that farrell is the 'rookie ' here i don't know.
they have both had the same number of caps near enough, could be one out.

as guscott said pre match, look at the stats. biggar is involved with more carries, more out of hand field position kicking, you just didn't see how well he kicks at goal because 1/2p was our kicker. as i said, we'll see.

sexton leads purely through his experience, and deservedly so.

funny exscot, yeah i described the fly half some welsh supporters would rather watch and lose a game!!!!!!!!! lets hope we've turned that corner for good.

profitius wrote:
Expect to see wave after wave of big runners battering the Aussies. The Lions will go after them in the scrums in a big way. I think the strongest scrummagers will be picked so that Adam Jones and whoever at loosehead.

Not sure that's always the way to beat the Wallabies. they're quite use to big boys running into them, wave after wave, the Argies and Boks are not really lightweights, usually their defence is not powderpuff and they can counterattack quite well.

Of course having a strong platform helps any sides, but probably a bit of finess will be required. quicker flankers I think wil be the way to go, got to tie the Wallabie's flankers up.

As a Scot, I'd take Farrell ahead of Biggar every day of the week because quite simply he is a better class of player.

I think Gatland should pick Walsh as his squads law advisor.
SW gets on very well with the Wales front row, and can also give smart coiffeur advice to A Jones and Hibbard.

reallybored wrote:As a Scot, I'd take Farrell ahead of Biggar every day of the week because quite simply he is a better class of player.

elaborate

100%beefy wrote:

reallybored wrote:As a Scot, I'd take Farrell ahead of Biggar every day of the week because quite simply he is a better class of player.

elaborate

He's not Welsh, so his laziness won't drag the tour down.

Farrell has an edge to him, when we played England Farrell was the difference when Scotland played Wales Biggar was practically anonymous, statistics don't even tell the whole story and if you picked a best team on the basis of what you've seen they'd probably beat the best team on the basis of statistics. Farrell is Wilkinson-esque where England fell short was that whereas Wilkinson had Greenwood and Tindall, Farrell has Brad Barritt who was repeatedly receiving plaudits for the most underrated player to the point he became overrated, he can tackle but you expect every rugby player to be able to tackle, he offers very little in attack and so England's game plan suffers.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I wouldn't have said Launchbury was ahead of Ian Evans, and surely Dan Cole goes as second choice tighthead behind Adam Jones (is there another credible candidate??).

I really don't think BOD is "on the plane" either. Needs a big finish to the season with Leinster in my view.

I think Jonny Wilkinson will be waiting by the phone a very very long time.

No I would have Dan Cole as starting tighthead. Jones may shade Cole in the scrum but Cole is better in every other way and that will pay dividends v Australia IMO who arent known for their scrummaging.

Cuthbert first name on test sheet. No brainer.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Cuthbert first name on test sheet. No brainer.

So Digby Ioane can achieve his dream of scoring against the Lions?

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Cuthbert first name on test sheet. No brainer.

Isnt he injured and in doubt he will tour at all?

123456789 wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Cuthbert first name on test sheet. No brainer.

So Digby Ioane can achieve his dream of scoring against the Lions?

That's a dream of his?

SecretFly wrote:

123456789 wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Cuthbert first name on test sheet. No brainer.

So Digby Ioane can achieve his dream of scoring against the Lions?

That's a dream of his?

Yeah, he told me himself

Tell him to eat cheese...that'll help him have better ones.