Ireland's injury woes due to lack of muscle mass?

First topic message reminder :

We are not the biggest race of people in the world and I definitely think Irish players suffer a little if they aren't carrying that kilo or two of extra muscle. Some of the other international sides are just naturally bigger.
Look at the backlines of the other Six Nations teams – with the possible exception of Scotland, all the other sides have bigger backlines than us. I’ve always thought we need that bit of extra bulk.
I don’t know if this has been a factor in the spate of injuries but it should be examined when they sit down to work out if there’s more to them than just bad luck.
The IRFU’s game management programme has protected the players from having to play too many games so we have to look elsewhere for a possible reason. I just think that if the players had an extra few kilos of muscle mass, they would be able to protect themselves a bit better.
What I’m talking about here is the top level, the international players. I wouldn’t like to see young players thinking they have to put on loads of muscle as teenagers before their body is ready for it. But definitely at the professional level, I think we have suffered in this Six Nations because of a lack of size.
It might not be the main reason for all the injuries. They might all just be freak injuries, fellas getting caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. But at international level, you can’t be putting everything down to bad luck. You have to try and find out if there’s more to it than that.

I get what you are saying there fly but surely you'd have to accept that our diet of potatoes isn't as effective as the Scottish and Welsh respective Haggis and Lamb diets?

rodders wrote:I get what you are saying there fly but surely you'd have to accept that our diet of potatoes isn't as effective as the Scottish and Welsh respective Haggis and Lamb diets?

There you go, Rodders. Talk food in an Irish rugby thread and you get kicked to death. Talk genetics and you get kicked to death. Talk strength and conditioning and you get kicked to death.

Talk about the science behind some of the efforts Ireland is putting in in recent years and you get told to shut your face, it's Jackson that should have been put to 15 and Heaslip that should have been on the wing and Hayes that should have played centre.

There is always and forever a simple reason of player choices that explains away all Ireland's ills for some. And that even stretched to the Ireland camp itself when they tut tutted the idea that a dedicated Strength and Conditioning coach was needed. "Don't talk bull, son...that's airy fairy stuff. irish players know what they have to do and besides, they have their conditioning people back in Provinces. We can save money by not having one...and maybe we can get away without an Attack coach too for a while. That's all girlie stuff...we're Irish"

So you're right. I'm saying irish players mostly have to fight a daily battle to keep on the poundage and to keep on the muscle in the right places and we need a pretty scientific approach to it. I think we have a lazy approach to it because we think things are fine in that department. And this thread proves my worries in that area. "Oh we're big enough, don't be making a scene"

We're not...and we could learn from virtually every other top ten side and maybe even quit the stodgystarch spud! ..if need be

BTW..is it a coincidence or an aspect of genetics that Wales's two massive backs...Cuthbert and North... are part English? Wales seem to know what they want in the gene factory

Fly makes a point to a degree, PI players have different genetic adaptations to training than white european, black and spanish players.

But the Irish race are typically wirey, small and bony??? Lets not get ahead of ourselves, the sterrotypical Ballymun boys maybe, and then maybe the odd town is renowned for it, but have you ever been to Offaly? Most of Clare or Cork, they breed em big and ugly as much as the rest of the UK easy!!

Fly we aren't big enough and one aspect of that is likely genetic.

However I think the bigger aspect is the training and culture, particularly at underage level.

I do think there are illicit substances being used more widespread in other countries but even ignoring that can of worms our approach to training and diet needs to be changed.

N.B. injuries have been quite wide spead in some of the NIEs too...Muller, Williams, Roux, Stander, Payne etc. so that suggests the issues aren't just genetic.

"Don't talk bull, son...that's airy fairy stuff. irish players know what they have to do and besides, they have their conditioning people back in Provinces. We can save money by not having one.

Just want to point out the job of a strength and conditioning coach at international level, solid warm ups, structured cool downs and stelth coaching (waterboy) throughout games. An internation SnC coach would not touch a training plan/physiological adaptations of players without consulting the provincial coaches, and if they did it would be to follow the provincial set ups already structured plans!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Fly makes a point to a degree, PI players have different genetic adaptations to training than white european, black and spanish players.

But the Irish race are typically wirey, small and bony??? Lets not get ahead of ourselves, the sterrotypical Ballymun boys maybe, and then maybe the odd town is renowned for it, but have you ever been to Offaly? Most of Clare or Cork, they breed em big and ugly as much as the rest of the UK easy!!

There you go again, blues..telling me the makeup of my country that I've travelled in for over 40 years. I know what I'm saying...I'm right in what I'm saying...and my evidence is probably a little more founded in observation than yours...no offence intended as I wouldn't begin to tell you the genetic blueprint of Welsh people or the cross-over results of 'outside' breeding there. Irish people are getting taller, getting bulkier...(heading towards the 'In General' level...NOT there yet in most counties I've travelled in...and that's all of them)

But this is an opinions forum..so we'll just agree to differ................. again

thebluesmancometh wrote:"Don't talk bull, son...that's airy fairy stuff. irish players know what they have to do and besides, they have their conditioning people back in Provinces. We can save money by not having one.

Just want to point out the job of a strength and conditioning coach at international level, solid warm ups, structured cool downs and stelth coaching (waterboy) throughout games. An internation SnC coach would not touch a training plan/physiological adaptations of players without consulting the provincial coaches, and if they did it would be to follow the provincial set ups already structured plans!!

Structured plans? IRFU Kidney Ireland Inc? Structured? Correct, bluesman, we do agree. Structure...is an issue................

Come off it Fly those Leprechauns you see round Temple bar and O'Connell street are huge! Way bigger than the ones on TV!

rodders wrote:Fly we aren't big enough and one aspect of that is likely genetic.

However I think the bigger aspect is the training and culture, particularly at underage level.

I do think there are illicit substances being used more widespread in other countries but even ignoring that can of worms our approach to training and diet needs to be changed.

N.B. injuries have been quite wide spead in some of the NIEs too...Muller, Williams, Roux, Stander, Payne etc. so that suggests the issues aren't just genetic.

Too true, it seems a lot of foreigners that come to Leinster in particular cant hack the physicality and spend most of the their time in the injury room:

CJ Van Der Linde
Quinn Roux
Steven Sykes
etc.

SecretFly wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Fly makes a point to a degree, PI players have different genetic adaptations to training than white european, black and spanish players.

But the Irish race are typically wirey, small and bony??? Lets not get ahead of ourselves, the sterrotypical Ballymun boys maybe, and then maybe the odd town is renowned for it, but have you ever been to Offaly? Most of Clare or Cork, they breed em big and ugly as much as the rest of the UK easy!!

There you go again, blues..telling me the makeup of my country that I've travelled in for over 40 years. I know what I'm saying...I'm right in what I'm saying...and my evidence is probably a little more founded in observation than yours...no offence intended as I wouldn't begin to tell you the genetic blueprint of Welsh people or the cross-over results of 'outside' breeding there. Irish people are getting taller, getting bulkier...(heading towards the 'In General' level...NOT there yet in most counties I've travelled in...and that's all of them)

But this is an opinions forum..so we'll just agree to differ................. again

I'm not questioning your heritage? And I'm not presuming to tell you about your genetic history mate, but unless your feild is gentic history of the Irish population in relation to sporting ability I'm afraid our opinions are as valid as each others, you don't hold a higher moral ground because you are a native unfortunately. And with regards to genetics and rugby development I have spent years living, playing and coaching in lots of areas, I wouldn't presume to know any more about Irish genetics than Welsh genetics than anyone else on the forum, I find it amazing that you do frankly.

The issue of genetics has little to do with injury rates, over a small number of players, in a squad comprising of a tiny percentage of pro players in the country IMHO, techniques used and training methods would be a suggestion with far more validity IMHO

SecretFly wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:"Don't talk bull, son...that's airy fairy stuff. irish players know what they have to do and besides, they have their conditioning people back in Provinces. We can save money by not having one.

Just want to point out the job of a strength and conditioning coach at international level, solid warm ups, structured cool downs and stelth coaching (waterboy) throughout games. An internation SnC coach would not touch a training plan/physiological adaptations of players without consulting the provincial coaches, and if they did it would be to follow the provincial set ups already structured plans!!

Structured plans? IRFU Kidney Ireland Inc? Structured? Correct, bluesman, we do agree. Structure...is an issue................

The IRFU, Kidney and co will have little if anything to do with SnC plans though, SnC coaches are in the most part outside qualified and employed as specialists.

rodders wrote:Come off it Fly those Leprechauns you see round Temple bar and O'Connell street are huge! Way bigger than the ones on TV!

I didn't know whether they were big ...or just far away......................................??!

thebluesmancometh wrote:
The issue of genetics has little to do with injury rates, over a small number of players, in a squad comprising of a tiny percentage of pro players in the country IMHO, techniques used and training methods would be a suggestion with far more validity IMHO

I concur.

I think the condition set up has gone down hill since EOS left. He was a bit of a visionary in that record implementing those brutal 10 week pre season programs.

Bluesman I heard recently that the Ulster first team only train a maximum of 6 hrs per week during the season. How does that fit with other teams you have experience of?

rodders wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:
The issue of genetics has little to do with injury rates, over a small number of players, in a squad comprising of a tiny percentage of pro players in the country IMHO, techniques used and training methods would be a suggestion with far more validity IMHO

I concur.

I think the condition set up has gone down hill since EOS left. He was a bit of a visionary in that record implementing those brutal 10 week pre season programs.

Bluesman I heard recently that the Ulster first team only train a maximum of 6 hrs per week during the season. How does that fit with other teams you have experience of?

I'd say that was team training mind, 6 hours of getting together and putting in place structured work, probably tactical issues more than technical.

A typical week would consist of probably 15 - 20 hours toward improving them as players and a team including...

Recovery, Physio, Analysis, Strength and conditioning, technical work, tactical work, small unit work, individual skill based work, team contact, and strategising (just off the top of my head I may have missed some areas)

So training on pitch may be as little as 6 hours, but I'd say you have to add at least 6 hours of gym work, 4 hours of admin and the odd hour or two of recovery/movement.

But 1.5 hour sessions 4 times a week sounds about right for team training (sam as Dragons)

thebluesmancometh wrote:

I'm not questioning your heritage? And I'm not presuming to tell you about your genetic history mate, but unless your feild is gentic history of the Irish population in relation to sporting ability I'm afraid our opinions are as valid as each others, you don't hold a higher moral ground because you are a native unfortunately. And with regards to genetics and rugby development I have spent years living, playing and coaching in lots of areas, I wouldn't presume to know any more about Irish genetics than Welsh genetics than anyone else on the forum, I find it amazing that you do frankly.

The issue of genetics has little to do with injury rates, over a small number of players, in a squad comprising of a tiny percentage of pro players in the country IMHO, techniques used and training methods would be a suggestion with far more validity IMHO

You're questioning my knowledge of my own country, blues..that's what you're doing. I wouldn't give a damn about questioning my views on the heritage bit...all that lovely stuff is on Wiki for whoever wants to pretend they are specialists in that field.

You're questioning my Eyes, ears and memories.... that's what you're questioning. And you are saying your observations of Ireland and Irish people are as legitmate as mine. I'm bluntly, openly and directly, telling you you are wrong. Nope, your observations of Ireland and the Irish are NOT as legitimate as mine as I've travelled more extensively in my country and for longer a period than you have, and have lived in it for most of my life. I know my country from seeing it in the flesh. You've looked at a bit of it and second guess the rest..... mate

Let's keep it to the sport, blues. That's a happier place for you and I.

I was told 6 hours physical training blue - the rest being meetings, tactics etc.

Maybe I picked it up wrong and this was only gym based work but I'm pretty sure this was field based work included as well.

SecretFly wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

I'm not questioning your heritage? And I'm not presuming to tell you about your genetic history mate, but unless your feild is gentic history of the Irish population in relation to sporting ability I'm afraid our opinions are as valid as each others, you don't hold a higher moral ground because you are a native unfortunately. And with regards to genetics and rugby development I have spent years living, playing and coaching in lots of areas, I wouldn't presume to know any more about Irish genetics than Welsh genetics than anyone else on the forum, I find it amazing that you do frankly.

The issue of genetics has little to do with injury rates, over a small number of players, in a squad comprising of a tiny percentage of pro players in the country IMHO, techniques used and training methods would be a suggestion with far more validity IMHO

You're questioning my knowledge of my own country, blues..that's what you're doing. I wouldn't give a damn about questioning my views on the heritage bit...all that lovely stuff is on Wiki for whoever wants to pretend they are specialists in that field.

You're questioning my Eyes, ears and memories.... that's what you're questioning. And you are saying your observations of Ireland and Irish people are as legitmate as mine. I'm bluntly, openly and directly, telling you you are wrong. Nope, your observations of Ireland and the Irish are NOT as legitimate as mine as I've travelled more extensively in my country and for longer a period than you have, and have lived in it for most of my life. I know my country from seeing it in the flesh. You've looked at a bit of it and second guess the rest..... mate

Let's keep it to the sport, blues. That's a happier place for you and I.

See now youve become too emotional to have a rational discussion with, your knowledge of your country is far more extensive than mine, but we aren't talking about your country, we are specifically discussing the effects on genetics on Irish rugby players at elite level. And when it comes to elite development pathways, junior physiologcail development I can put my hand on heart and say I am as knwledgable as anyone. Let me ask you a question about it... What was the average Height and weight of Irish U16 elite performers under the watch of the IRFU last season? How does those figures compare to the WRU's and RFU's statistics of the same elite performers?

My observations as an outsider of the Irish nations development pathways are far more legitimate than yours, as would be an Irish professional observing the Welsh development pathways than mine. Emotion oscures observation to a massive degree, and is exactly the reason analysis in sport has become so popular, the chance to re see incidents without the cloud of emotion, and the instant reaction. Infact I'd go as far to say that most people involved in analysis and reflection are eithe national or sporting outsiders on purpose!

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

profitius wrote:

hugo124 wrote:We are not the biggest race of people in the world and I definitely think Irish players suffer a little if they aren't carrying that kilo or two of extra muscle. Some of the other international sides are just naturally bigger.

According to people who spent their lives travelling from country to country measuring people Irish people actually are big ON AVERAGE. I've posted about this before. It really annoys me because not only is it factually incorrect but its a defeatist attitude.

100% agree. Its such a cop out, drives me mad. Ive no doubt there are other more relevant reasons for the injury crisis such as tactics or coaching.

We maybe average, but what you really need to know are the teams we are playing against are also average i.e, South Africans & English are definately bigger than we are.

And the welsh are bigger than all three.

rodders

No it will have been field based work only (I think) SnC work is largely regarded as personal training, and a lot of it done indipendantly of the clubs training (depending on venue, facilities etc)

SnC coaches are brought in as specialists, and generally the head SnC coach will dictate the best ways for players to train (IE timings to abvoid fatigue during training etc)

So if I were to guess On field training would be the 6 hour figure, however as players get older training methods differ from younger players and they change focus so for a lot of 28/30 yr olds plus training for maintenance instead of improvements may occur.

I'd be surprised to hear a player talk about other players conditioning routines as every one of them would do different things lasting different amounts of time, plus there will always be some freaks who hit the gyms after as well.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

My observations as an outsider of the Irish nations development pathways are far more legitimate than yours, as would be an Irish professional observing the Welsh development pathways than mine. Emotion oscures observation to a massive degree, and is exactly the reason analysis in sport has become so popular, the chance to re see incidents without the cloud of emotion, and the instant reaction. Infact I'd go as far to say that most people involved in analysis and reflection are eithe national or sporting outsiders on purpose!

Yeah totally agree with that. Sometimes I really find my irrational hate for my country and pretty much everyone in it (bar Bono, John Hayes, Sine and Ruan Pienaar) clouds my judgement sometimes.

thebluesmancometh wrote:
I'd be surprised to hear a player talk about other players conditioning routines as every one of them would do different things lasting different amounts of time, plus there will always be some freaks who hit the gyms after as well.

This came directly from the (ex)SnC coach themselves and was an average in season figure.

rodders wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

My observations as an outsider of the Irish nations development pathways are far more legitimate than yours, as would be an Irish professional observing the Welsh development pathways than mine. Emotion oscures observation to a massive degree, and is exactly the reason analysis in sport has become so popular, the chance to re see incidents without the cloud of emotion, and the instant reaction. Infact I'd go as far to say that most people involved in analysis and reflection are eithe national or sporting outsiders on purpose!

Yeah totally agree with that. Sometimes I really find my irrational hate for my country and pretty much everyone in it (bar Bono, John Hayes, Sine and Ruan Pienaar) clouds my judgement sometimes.

I can honestly say Ive rewatched games of teams Ive coached and what I watched on the video looks to be a totally different game than Ive felt pitchside!!! There are actually quite a few studies on it, one of my favourites was an American study that used hundreds of coaches, basically video'd and then questioned the coaches on the incidents during the game. Recollection of their own team was below 40% of what happened in a 90 minute soccer match, recollection of someone elses team was near 60% of what happened in a 90 minute soccer match. So even the BEST could only recall 60%, and 40% of their own team. I thought that was amazing, and I would be far below the 40%

rodders wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:
I'd be surprised to hear a player talk about other players conditioning routines as every one of them would do different things lasting different amounts of time, plus there will always be some freaks who hit the gyms after as well.

This came directly from the (ex)SnC coach themselves and was an average in season figure.

I'd be amazed if that was an average in season figure for both on field and SnC, but I suppose different teams different ethos. Pre season would be massively higher than that, but when the season rocks up players tend to differentiate in routines, some orefer to target key times of the season, then look to taper for weeks before that (I'm sure all ints do this for 6N) others are still in a developmental stage of their careers and would be looking to improve week on week constantly. It all gets very technical but mid season certain phacets of training get toned down, other ramped up, I wouldn't know the seasonal average of a team so I wouldn't know tbh.

Fly, you've ignored what I have posted from experts (not Irish) who went around Europe measuring different populations. They measured head width, length, jaw size, the difference between men and women, chest size, shoulder size, length of limbs, weight, height etc etc. You're dismissing that for something you observe in your travels! I travel to northern Germany alot and see no difference. I quoted the average heights on wikipedia also.


And to counter your argument further, there isn't a whole lot of difference between populations. You're talking inches and half inches but you insist Irish people are small and wirey. No point insisting you're right when all the data says otherwise.


Rewind the clock back a few years and Welsh fans were saying this too. They started to focus on bigger backs as a result and now look at their backline. Irelands U20 team can include 2 centers over 6ft 4 at the JWC. Chris Farrell and Tom Daly. There are also team who are putting backrows into center ie Jordan Coughlan and Harrison Brewer.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

See now youve become too emotional to have a rational discussion with,

My observations as an outsider of the Irish nations development pathways are far more legitimate than yours, as would be an Irish professional observing the Welsh development pathways than mine.

I detected a 'mate', blues.... so I returned with a checkmate. You see, when the 'mate' starts hitting the fan, you know you're talking to a guy speaking through clenched teeth. So, in order to contain the emotions in others, it'd be best not use words that would uncover your own. Nobody ever calls me 'mate' unless they're aggitated....that or they're a SHer

On your second point. Well, it's irrelevant as Irish 'development pathways' wasn't what I was calling you up on. By all means discuss the pathways. It's the shoddy pathways at Ireland inc I'm concerned about...so I'm all ears. Nope, the thing I pulled you up on, as you well know, was just the general contours of an ordinary (pre gym and conditioning pathways) Irish male.

There are two discussions taking place at once here. Genetics and then Conditioning. The two sometimes collide in the real world and then the two can operate independently of each other too. People should read what's being said before anyone gets that idea that I'm saying Irish players can't improve their conditioning because of genes. They obviously can...and 2007 proved it. My point is, they need to be more attentive to conditioning as conditioning at present is visibly off present International standards.

David Wallace was always ruthlessly professional in his approach to conditioning on an individual basis and his abilities in a game proved his conditioning worked for him.

profitius wrote:And to counter your argument further, there isn't a whole lot of difference between populations. You're talking inches and half inches but you insist Irish people are small and wirey. No point insisting you're right when all the data says otherwise.

2 words...

Barry

McGuigan.

FACT.

profitius wrote:Fly, you've ignored what I have posted from experts (not Irish) who went around Europe measuring different populations. They measured head width, length, jaw size, the difference between men and women, chest size, shoulder size, length of limbs, weight, height etc etc. You're dismissing that for something you observe in your travels! I travel to northern Germany alot and see no difference. I quoted the average heights on wikipedia also.


And to counter your argument further, there isn't a whole lot of difference between populations. You're talking inches and half inches but you insist Irish people are small and wirey. No point insisting you're right when all the data says otherwise.


Rewind the clock back a few years and Welsh fans were saying this too. They started to focus on bigger backs as a result and now look at their backline. Irelands U20 team can include 2 centers over 6ft 4 at the JWC. Chris Farrell and Tom Daly. There are also team who are putting backrows into center ie Jordan Coughlan and Harrison Brewer.

There you go. What are we disagreeing with here, Profitius? I see Irish people with my own eyes.
We have big Irish people. Yes..we have.
We're all Leprechauns? No.

You're so black and white in your claims. It has to be one truth with you and nothing else... the stats one.

I still say, I've been around this country more than once, much more than once, with my own eyes... and we're not imposing people...We are not...in general.

We have imposing people...we have midgets...but overall, I don't see us as being a sturdy, big boned people - in general. I'll believe my own eyes. And I still say too that when we line out against France, England or whatever other Nation, we are seldom if ever the imposing looking side. I see that with my own eyes..I don't need any figures to prove me right or wrong.

So what I'm saying...what I continue to say..is we need to work on conditioning. We're falling behind in that department all the time and it has something - not everything - but something to do with our declining standing at International level.

Now how can I be more clearer? The particular conditioning point I make has little to do with the gene point I make; but on observations I still say genes show up in peoples. They do..and I see them at work in Ireland. Others will see them at work in their own countries. Christ, genes have become a dirty word since Hitler's day obviously. We're all the one? Well we ain't..and genetic models even in Europe prove it.

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote:Fly, you've ignored what I have posted from experts (not Irish) who went around Europe measuring different populations. They measured head width, length, jaw size, the difference between men and women, chest size, shoulder size, length of limbs, weight, height etc etc. You're dismissing that for something you observe in your travels! I travel to northern Germany alot and see no difference. I quoted the average heights on wikipedia also.


And to counter your argument further, there isn't a whole lot of difference between populations. You're talking inches and half inches but you insist Irish people are small and wirey. No point insisting you're right when all the data says otherwise.


Rewind the clock back a few years and Welsh fans were saying this too. They started to focus on bigger backs as a result and now look at their backline. Irelands U20 team can include 2 centers over 6ft 4 at the JWC. Chris Farrell and Tom Daly. There are also team who are putting backrows into center ie Jordan Coughlan and Harrison Brewer.

There you go. What are we disagreeing with here, Profitius? I see Irish people with my own eyes.
We have big Irish people. Yes..we have.
We're all Leprechauns? No.

You're so black and white in your claims. It has to be one truth with you and nothing else... the stats one.

I still say, I've been around this country more than once, much more than once, with my own eyes... and we're not imposing people...We are not...in general.

We have imposing people...we have midgets...but overall, I don't see us as being a sturdy, big boned people - in general. I'll believe my own eyes. .

I do not know the scientific truth of this either way, but if the evidence points in a direction to the contradiction of one's "own eyes" then Fly you have a responsibility to open your eyes a bit bigger. This is not a matter of subjective opinion to be argued. Either Irish people are "genetically less big" then other rugby playing nations or they are not. And it won't be Fly's travels around Ireland, and list of anecdotes that will give us the answer, but scientific research. I'm a big fan of you as a poster, but here I think you are completely wrong.

SecretFly wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

See now youve become too emotional to have a rational discussion with,

My observations as an outsider of the Irish nations development pathways are far more legitimate than yours, as would be an Irish professional observing the Welsh development pathways than mine.

I detected a 'mate', blues.... so I returned with a checkmate. You see, when the 'mate' starts hitting the fan, you know you're talking to a guy speaking through clenched teeth. So, in order to contain the emotions in others, it'd be best not use words that would uncover your own. Nobody ever calls me 'mate' unless they're aggitated....that or they're a SHer

On your second point. Well, it's irrelevant as Irish 'development pathways' wasn't what I was calling you up on. By all means discuss the pathways. It's the shoddy pathways at Ireland inc I'm concerned about...so I'm all ears. Nope, the thing I pulled you up on, as you well know, was just the general contours of an ordinary (pre gym and conditioning pathways) Irish male.

There are two discussions taking place at once here. Genetics and then Conditioning. The two sometimes collide in the real world and then the two can operate independently of each other too. People should read what's being said before anyone gets that idea that I'm saying Irish players can't improve their conditioning because of genes. They obviously can...and 2007 proved it. My point is, they need to be more attentive to conditioning as conditioning at present is visibly off present International standards.

David Wallace was always ruthlessly professional in his approach to conditioning on an individual basis and his abilities in a game proved his conditioning worked for him.

Firstly I must apologise if you saw my comments as angry in any way, I use mate all the time (check other posts) for no other reason than to try to calm down other posters who have let emotion creep in, no offence intended mate

Secondly the average Irish male has nothing to do with rugby, we are talking the best of the best selected for their athletic prowess at junior level. If what your saying is correct then the mixed gene Dubliners will all be selected over small wirey Irish boys anyway so the argument is defunct.

PS conditioning plays very little part at international level, conditioning sessions are merely introduced to compliment new and original tactical and technical implimentations

wolfball wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote:Fly, you've ignored what I have posted from experts (not Irish) who went around Europe measuring different populations. They measured head width, length, jaw size, the difference between men and women, chest size, shoulder size, length of limbs, weight, height etc etc. You're dismissing that for something you observe in your travels! I travel to northern Germany alot and see no difference. I quoted the average heights on wikipedia also.


And to counter your argument further, there isn't a whole lot of difference between populations. You're talking inches and half inches but you insist Irish people are small and wirey. No point insisting you're right when all the data says otherwise.


Rewind the clock back a few years and Welsh fans were saying this too. They started to focus on bigger backs as a result and now look at their backline. Irelands U20 team can include 2 centers over 6ft 4 at the JWC. Chris Farrell and Tom Daly. There are also team who are putting backrows into center ie Jordan Coughlan and Harrison Brewer.

There you go. What are we disagreeing with here, Profitius? I see Irish people with my own eyes.
We have big Irish people. Yes..we have.
We're all Leprechauns? No.

You're so black and white in your claims. It has to be one truth with you and nothing else... the stats one.

I still say, I've been around this country more than once, much more than once, with my own eyes... and we're not imposing people...We are not...in general.

We have imposing people...we have midgets...but overall, I don't see us as being a sturdy, big boned people - in general. I'll believe my own eyes. .

I do not know the scientific truth of this either way, but if the evidence points in a direction to the contradiction of one's "own eyes" then Fly you have a responsibility to open your eyes a bit bigger. This is not a matter of subjective opinion to be argued. Either Irish people are "genetically less big" then other rugby playing nations or they are not. And it won't be Fly's travels around Ireland, and list of anecdotes that will give us the answer, but scientific research. I'm a big fan of you as a poster, but here I think you are completely wrong.

Not that I want to be too argumentative, but an average of height and weight measurements of a group of elite Irish U16 players last season saw a higher firgure than both Welsh and Scottish equivilants, and very near par with Englands.

wolfball wrote:

I do not know the scientific truth of this either way, but if the evidence points in a direction to the contradiction of one's "own eyes" then Fly you have a responsibility to open your eyes a bit bigger. This is not a matter of subjective opinion to be argued. Either Irish people are "genetically less big" then other rugby playing nations or they are not. And it won't be Fly's travels around Ireland, and list of anecdotes that will give us the answer, but scientific research. I'm a big fan of you as a poster, but here I think you are completely wrong.

Are you Irish, wolfball? Not a smart question just one that would let me know could you have your own opinion on the subject. Because I'm hearing Profitius quote the scriptures to me but I don't see many of my countrymen giving a direct reading of their own understanding of what kind of physique the GENERAL (have to specify that one always as I'll get told Jim O'Malley is 6'9" ) Irish population have...as they travel around Ireland in whatever capacity.

I've lived in Australia...I lived out in the sticks...they're as sinewy and wiry as Irish guys (mostly)... hard men but with not a lot of Germanic smooth skin padding ... maybe the diet, maybe the sun..maybe the fact that a good many of them would have Irish Celtic genes. We're historically known to be craggy skinned and angular... perhaps diet, perhaps minerals in the ground we eat our crops from in the past, perhaps genes... I SEE the difference between irish people and Germanic Anglo Saxon types.

You say you don't know the scientific truth either way, wolfball. Well you do. Or at least you should, you're after telling me Profitius's 'facts' prove I'm wrong. So Profitius is correct. Well, apart from my eyes I could go away and do my own research - which I'm pretty damn good at - and prove him worng...at least prove there is other scientific truths out there, as there always is.

That's why Scientific magazines keep getting rewritten - nothing is ever fact only a journey to it in science and Hawkings said that, not me I'll believe my own eyes about Irish people. We're getting sturdier, becoming more imposing and with the new immigrants we've had in the last 10 years genes will mix and we'll change...but for now, as I travel through Ireland, I see Mr. Average to small all around me - in general.

You say you don't know the scientific truth either way, wolfball. Well you do. Or at least you should,

This is where I say my goodbyes, theres no reasoning with people who write like this!

SecretFly wrote:
I've lived in Australia...I lived out in the sticks...

....but have you lived in Lilliput fly? .....

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Firstly I must apologise if you saw my comments as angry in any way, I use mate all the time (check other posts) for no other reason than to try to calm down other posters who have let emotion creep in, no offence intended mate

Secondly the average Irish male has nothing to do with rugby, we are talking the best of the best selected for their athletic prowess at junior level. If what your saying is correct then the mixed gene Dubliners will all be selected over small wirey Irish boys anyway so the argument is defunct.

PS conditioning plays very little part at international level, conditioning sessions are merely introduced to compliment new and original tactical and technical implimentations

Apology accepted or rather explanation fully accepted, blues.... it's just, well, maybe I have been missing the 'mates' in your previous posts. I'll look out for them in future.

Average Irish males might have nothing to do with rugby, but they've very much had something to do with the topic of this discussion. So I can't very well apologise for keeping them in the equation. You draw your players intitally from the average population..and you have to form them into rugby players from that beginning...so average Irish/Welsh/French male IS a factor. We can debate how big a factor it might be in relation to overall population density, but it is a factor.

And your PS bit..I totally agree with.

But in that idea that conditioning COMPLIMENTS tactical and technical implementations..then getting it absolutely right is extremely important. Welsh players are highly conditioned...and because they are conditioned to the extent that they are, they can implement a high energy attack focused gameplan for long periods in any given game. Their skill levels are helped by it, their brain gets more oxygen, they make better fresher decsions as the game wears on..they have the stamna to endure and execute the program/the plan. Conditioning is extremely important in giving a side a tactical advantage as without it tactics fall apart. I remember a time when Adam Jones had to be regularly replaced not too far into a second half of quite a lot of games. Now he cruises through heavy duty 80 minute sessions with a smile on his face. Irish players are well off that pace..their 40 minute slices of form prove it.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Not that I want to be too argumentative, but an average of height and weight measurements of a group of elite Irish U16 players last season saw a higher firgure than both Welsh and Scottish equivilants, and very near par with Englands.

AHA! Now we're getting there.................. like I've been saying Ireland are getting there...but it'll take a while yet before we start feeding International larger players to work with...in all positions, as I think MIGHT be the requirement in the future.

Although you never really know where rugby is going. When Ireland finally get their South African-like squads together, we might be getting outgunned by swarms of midgets from the latest incarnation of 'good' rugby

thebluesmancometh wrote:You say you don't know the scientific truth either way, wolfball. Well you do. Or at least you should,

This is where I say my goodbyes, theres no reasoning with people who write like this!

Explain blues..... as that's such a logical statement........................................

SecretFly wrote:

wolfball wrote:

I do not know the scientific truth of this either way, but if the evidence points in a direction to the contradiction of one's "own eyes" then Fly you have a responsibility to open your eyes a bit bigger. This is not a matter of subjective opinion to be argued. Either Irish people are "genetically less big" then other rugby playing nations or they are not. And it won't be Fly's travels around Ireland, and list of anecdotes that will give us the answer, but scientific research. I'm a big fan of you as a poster, but here I think you are completely wrong.

Are you Irish, wolfball? Not a smart question just one that would let me know could you have your own opinion on the subject. Because I'm hearing Profitius quote the scriptures to me but I don't see many of my countrymen giving a direct reading of their own understanding of what kind of physique the GENERAL (have to specify that one always as I'll get told Jim O'Malley is 6'9" ) Irish population have...as they travel around Ireland in whatever capacity.

I've lived in Australia...I lived out in the sticks...they're as sinewy and wiry as Irish guys (mostly)... hard men but with not a lot of Germanic smooth skin padding ... maybe the diet, maybe the sun..maybe the fact that a good many of them would have Irish Celtic genes. We're historically known to be craggy skinned and angular... perhaps diet, perhaps minerals in the ground we eat our crops from in the past, perhaps genes... I SEE the difference between irish people and Germanic Anglo Saxon types.

You say you don't know the scientific truth either way, wolfball. Well you do. Or at least you should, you're after telling me Profitius's 'facts' prove I'm wrong. So Profitius is correct. Well, apart from my eyes I could go away and do my own research - which I'm pretty damn good at - and prove him worng...at least prove there is other scientific truths out there, as there always is.

That's why Scientific magazines keep getting rewritten - nothing is ever fact only a journey to it in science and Hawkings said that, not me I'll believe my own eyes about Irish people. We're getting sturdier, becoming more imposing and with the new immigrants we've had in the last 10 years genes will mix and we'll change...but for now, as I travel through Ireland, I see Mr. Average to small all around me - in general.

You're talking about Germanic being bigger. Hallstatt nordid types (named after an area of Sweden where the most blood viking looking people can be found) are described as the following "The typical Hallstatt Nordid is a leptosome - tall and lean, with relatively long legs and a short body, moderately broad shoulders and relatively short arms. The impression is of a long and slender type, and corpulence is particularly rare. Sexual dimorphism is not significant."

Fly, you said I see things in black and white. I'm just quoting the most accurate facts there is on the subject. Its not what I think. You're going on what you see. The sentence I hightlighted is an example. You see Mr Average to small all around you - in general. That sentences shows you only focus on the average to small people!

profitius wrote:

Fly, you said I see things in black and white. I'm just quoting the most accurate facts there is on the subject. Its not what I think. You're going on what you see. The sentence I hightlighted is an example. You see Mr Average to small all around you - in general. That sentences shows you only focus on the average to small people!

We're going to fight to the bitter end on this one, profitius.... well, nope, we're not 'cause I have to go away for a bit. But I'll be back later so I'm open to more suggestions

But on that last line. It's also quite possible, and realistically could be, that the sentence infers that's what I'm actually seeing...not focusing on...seeing. That's a real possibility you could take from my Mr Average line. You see an Ireland full of larger than average Europeans? Maybe they're the Europeans though, and not the Irish?? Huh? Anyway...be back later all. Don't inundate me with 'You is Wrongh, Fly!!!' comments...I'm a sensitive soul, me

Fly, I am Irish, born in Dublin, moved to US when I was 4, returned to Mayo when I was 11 and lived in Mayo/Galway until I was 22, then Scotland/London for 5 years and now in the US again. I played rugby for Ballinrobe for years, and also St Andrews in Scotland and I feel I have seen enough Irish people to have an opinion on Irish people.

My brother is a personal trainer in Ireland. The lads he hangs out with are huge. So my own eyes tell me there is a mix and that Ireland is 5-10years behind the body-beautiful work-out regimes of USA. So when you talk about sinewy irish people, I know what you are talking about, but is that diet/training or genetics? I simply do not know. I am being honest, I do not know the scientific answer. Profitus might be wrong, I havent checked the scientific facts myself and a quick google search gives alot of contradictory information. For example, a country could have people genetically predisposed to be 6 foot 3 adonis type fellows, but if their national dish is grease and cheese, the average person might not represent it. I suppose my point is, this is complicated, and the personal experience of a single Irish person is not invalid, but nor does it give any more insight then someone who has looked into the scientific studies.

wolfball wrote:Fly, I am Irish, born in Dublin, moved to US when I was 4, returned to Mayo when I was 11 and lived in Mayo/Galway until I was 22, then Scotland/London for 5 years and now in the US again. I played rugby for Ballinrobe for years, and also St Andrews in Scotland and I feel I have seen enough Irish people to have an opinion on Irish people.

My brother is a personal trainer in Ireland. The lads he hangs out with are huge. So my own eyes tell me there is a mix and that Ireland is 5-10years behind the body-beautiful work-out regimes of USA. So when you talk about sinewy irish people, I know what you are talking about, but is that diet/training or genetics? I simply do not know. I am being honest, I do not know the scientific answer. Profitus might be wrong, I havent checked the scientific facts myself and a quick google search gives alot of contradictory information. For example, a country could have people genetically predisposed to be 6 foot 3 adonis type fellows, but if their national dish is grease and cheese, the average person might not represent it. I suppose my point is, this is complicated, and the personal experience of a single Irish person is not invalid, but nor does it give any more insight then someone who has looked into the scientific studies.

Thanks for the feedback wolfball. The question about were you Irish was a genuine one... I didn't know. The sentence could read that I was being smart about it.. but I tried to make sure that wasn't the mood you should take from it. And I wanted to know so that you could give an Irish person's opinion on our (Irish) overall physique...as in an overall take on it. Not many of the contributers - Irish ones - have been giving their own views on it and I think it's important to see just how influencial eyes actually are in the debate. I think observation in the real world is important.

Anyway, yes, I'm from an - Jesus, I can't believe it but it's now true that I'm from an older generation (still all my own hair!)

But yes, I can see the shape of Irish people changing and I certainly can see the big spurt in height in young people. But all that will take time to feed more generally into sport still, and then it has to be chanelled to rugby sport against other competition. It's coming. I've said that...and I'm using my eyes for that assessment too...but it's going to take some more time. Meanwhile we have to push our conditioning levels higher than they've been to protect our International players who are being asked to play a high impact South African style game when their current physique don't really suit it...and most of the Irish posters on this thread and other related ones do agree with that bit.

interesting discussion but ultimately a smokescreen for the real problems.

If our new coach changes our style of play and encourages offloading and passing (not excessive defence, box kicks and forcing errors) and we are still winning less than 40% of our matches a year then we can have this discussion.

You do not need a team of 6ft4 17 stone backs to be successful. The Welsh backs did not look like world beaters when they had major injuries up front. There revival was due to a huge improvement in their forward pack. Granted the back 3 are a serious unit and take some stopping.

I will concede that the Irish backline is small and a bit of ballast and power would be of use. Trimble and Bowe can offer this to an extent if used well. Would like to see Bowe get a run in midfield and leave the steppers on the wing.

With good coaching and a suitable game plan i am quietly optimistic about the future of the Irish international team. We will not be world beaters but we can certainly be competitive get back towards the top of the 6 nations and put bums back on seats in the Aviva again and stop these mammoth threads on here.

Cue appointments of Les Kiss with Bradley and Foley as assistants LOL

dublin_dave wrote:

Cue appointments of Les Kiss with Bradley and Foley as assistants LOL

The Horror. The Horror.

nothing personal against Les Kiss Fly. he has been misused

However with a win rate of less than 40% in the last 2 years nobody from the current set up should be let near the new one.

dublin_dave wrote:nothing personal against Les Kiss Fly. he has been misused

However with a win rate of less than 40% in the last 2 years nobody from the current set up should be let near the new one.

Nothing against any of them as individuals dave...even Declan. He did what he did for Munster and Munster would still tell you he was central. But as our International unit...they never really clicked no matter how Kidney put them here or there. So yes, in a pure sense of what's best for Ireland's hopes, I think a full break away and a completely new set up to clear the air and introduce something genuinely new.

SecretFly wrote:
But yes, I can see the shape of Irish people changing and I certainly can see the big spurt in height in young people. But all that will take time to feed more generally into sport still, and then it has to be chanelled to rugby sport against other competition. It's coming. I've said that...and I'm using my eyes for that assessment too...but it's going to take some more time. Meanwhile we have to push our conditioning levels higher than they've been to protect our International players who are being asked to play a high impact South African style game when their current physique don't really suit it...and most of the Irish posters on this thread and other related ones do agree with that bit.

Agree completely that we have played a game that our current crop of players are not suited too. I rewatched all the grand slam matches recently and noted the equal measures of luck and dross play that gave us that championship; we have to play a game more suited to our players. But I do not know if that is genetic and even when you say you see a spurt in height in young people; well genetics dont work that quickly, what you are seeing may be more to do with environment (diet/excersice) then genes. Australia is hardly a country of small daisy-like people but currently their rugby team is physically light. I doubt the Aussies are bemoaning their genetic differences, but rather attempting to play to their current players strenghts. And when Deccie goes, I hope we get a coach who does the same.

I see dublin-dave's comments now. Pretty much everyone Irish on these boards is on the same page (besides one obvious poster) with regards the need for us to play to our strenghts. Genetic disposition is interesting to debate, but it will be pointless once we have our team playing like heads up footballers avoiding contact.

wolfball wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
But yes, I can see the shape of Irish people changing and I certainly can see the big spurt in height in young people. But all that will take time to feed more generally into sport still, and then it has to be chanelled to rugby sport against other competition. It's coming. I've said that...and I'm using my eyes for that assessment too...but it's going to take some more time. Meanwhile we have to push our conditioning levels higher than they've been to protect our International players who are being asked to play a high impact South African style game when their current physique don't really suit it...and most of the Irish posters on this thread and other related ones do agree with that bit.

Agree completely that we have played a game that our current crop of players are not suited too. I rewatched all the grand slam matches recently and noted the equal measures of luck and dross play that gave us that championship; we have to play a game more suited to our players. But I do not know if that is genetic and even when you say you see a spurt in height in young people; well genetics dont work that quickly, what you are seeing may be more to do with environment (diet/excersice) then genes. Australia is hardly a country of small daisy-like people but currently their rugby team is physically light. I doubt the Aussies are bemoaning their genetic differences, but rather attempting to play to their current players strenghts. And when Deccie goes, I hope we get a coach who does the same.

Ah no, genetics don't work that quickly... I hope I'm intelligent to know that. But selective breeding does, wolfball. That means the country has become more mobile, people move away from their communities... people choose partners based on desired traits (that tend to be based on the cultures of the time) and hey presto..within a generation or so of two statueque athletic beauties marrying each other we have the beginnings of a new look village To a certain degree that's what has been happening in Ireland. People finding their partners from all areas of the country and having the modern leisure to choose traits they like in each other.

But I'm not looking for Nazi experimentation to get us up to speed...I'm simply stating facts that I see before me whilst saying Ireland is changing in shape overall.

Back at team talk I don't deal in the idea that we shouldn't have the players we have..I say how do we make the players we have the best that they can be (no genetic thoughts come into my head - the genetics are here because the topic of this thread circles it)

I deal in the now when talking everyday rugby and I want our current players to be given every opportunity to compete on an equal footing. Higher attention to conditioning to get us through sequences of games (WCs and 6N), higher levels of conditioning to get us to survive 80 minute games and better coaches plus gameplan to allow players suited to a certain kind of game to be able to play it.

i think rodders to be fair cited it. Not as an excuse for Kidney mind you

sound like the poor fella has given up all hope and is resigned to us playing in the developing european nations thing. ireland v belgium in ravenhill

dublin_dave wrote: ireland v belgium in ravenhill

I wouldn't risk a game like that right now, Dave.... It'd be verrrryyy risky. Ninth in the world rankings is as low as I want us to go this year.

dublin_dave wrote:
sound like the poor fella has given up all hope and is resigned to us playing in the developing european nations thing. ireland v belgium in ravenhill

I think that will be Ireland XV v Belgium at Ravenhill.......