David Flatman's Lions Team.

Probably the best Lions team I've seen yet, though I would probably have Parling in the second row. Should also be said that if O'Connell performs against Harlequins I think he will travel after his blinder against Connacht last night. His first match in a long time.

1 Cian Healey (Ire): Gethin Jenkins is also bang in form, so a close call.

2 Rory Best (Ire): Richard Hibbard is superb, but since William Servat of France retired Best has been the most consistent hooker in the northern hemisphere.

3 Adam Jones (Wal): The rock.

4 Alun Wyn Jones (Wal): How would he perform post-injury? Exceptionally. Joe Launchbury could feature too. Last Saturday wasn't his day, but what an impact he has had.

5 Jim Hamilton (Scot): Strong at the scrum, great timing for a giant in line-outs, confrontational and abrasive around the field. He would permit no liberties.

6 Chris Robshaw (Eng): Tireless and selfless. Stephen Ferris and Dan Lydiate are contenders if fit.

7 Sam Warburton (Wal): Back with a bang after tough few months. Seriously impressive.

8 Nick Easter (Eng): Toby Faletau and Jamie Heaslip both in with a shout, as is Ben Morgan when fit. But Easter is the boss at No 8.

9 Mike Phillips (Wal): Another man rejuvenated. This is all about who will scare Aussie defenders the most. Right now it's Phillips.

10 Jonny Sexton (Ire): Missed the past couple of games, but is still the man to control the series.

11 George North (Wal): Has it all.

12 Jamie Roberts (Wal): Based on form and experience. Knows what to do, has the athleticism to do it.

13 Brian O'Driscoll (Ire): Manu Tuilagi is a huge physical threat but BOD still has intelligence to work teams out and courage to take responsibility. One last shot.

14 Alex Cuthbert (Wal): Came of age in Six Nations. Automatic pick with his mate on the other side.

15 Leigh Halfpenny (Wal): Stuart Hogg could be a surprise success, but Halfpenny has experience, goal-kicking and a relationship with the two wingers.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/david-flatman-heres-my-revised-lions--with-a-few-welshmen-added-in-8547196.html?fb_action_ids=10151391645272736&fb_action_types=news.reads&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%2210151391645272736%22%3A513284055401899%7D&action_type_map=%7B%2210151391645272736%22%3A%22news.reads%22%7D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

Cant argue with that side...... well you can I suppose, but its a damn good side

Just two words though ROSS RENNIE, on form is quite simply the best open-side in the NH. Played the full 80 mins on Friday against high flying Ulster and was quite superb, he has four more games to possibly sneak into the Lions squad and make the 7 shirt his own.

I think BOD will find it hard to keep Jon Davies out of the midfield who during the 6Ns has played better than both Brian and Manu. I would play Hogg instead of Cuthbert as well but its a damn close call

Is he serious with Nick Easter at number 8, I mean I know David Flatman is a prop, but even so.....

Disagree with Hamilton and Easter, Evans/Grey/Launchbury/Parling even Coombes would be ahead of him.

Faletau, Morgan and Heaslip are better players than Easter

Too many Welsh players in that team and not enough other players from other nations.

Again i ask the question here is David Flatman looking the whole of the 6ns or just the last game between England and Wales?

One good game for Wales and Bad game for England should not be the deciding factor of how many for Englandf and Wales players go on the lions tour.

majesticimperialman wrote:Too many Welsh players in that team and not enough other players from other nations.

Again i ask the question here is David Flatman looking the whole of the 6ns or just the last game between England and Wales?

One good game for Wales and Bad game for England should not be the deciding factor of how many for Englandf and Wales players go on the lions tour.

Not our fault our players are the best. You pick the best I'm afraid unlike Woodward and his 3,000 English in 2005.

majesticimperialman wrote:Too many Welsh players in that team and not enough other players from other nations.

Again i ask the question here is David Flatman looking the whole of the 6ns or just the last game between England and Wales?

One good game for Wales and Bad game for England should not be the deciding factor of how many for Englandf and Wales players go on the lions tour.

ONE bad game for England? Their defence was terrible all tournament and they couldn't score a single try against Ireland, ITALY or Wales.

Time to be realistic and assess your team honestly.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Too many Welsh players in that team and not enough other players from other nations.

Again i ask the question here is David Flatman looking the whole of the 6ns or just the last game between England and Wales?

One good game for Wales and Bad game for England should not be the deciding factor of how many for Englandf and Wales players go on the lions tour.

ONE bad game for England? Their defence was terrible all tournament and they couldn't score a single try against Ireland, ITALY or Wales.

Time to be realistic and assess your team honestly.

Lets be realistic for once Tries do not all ways win games. It is the final score on the board that counts. And England had the most points on the board, that is why they kept winning. ok.

majesticimperialman wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Too many Welsh players in that team and not enough other players from other nations.

Again i ask the question here is David Flatman looking the whole of the 6ns or just the last game between England and Wales?

One good game for Wales and Bad game for England should not be the deciding factor of how many for Englandf and Wales players go on the lions tour.

ONE bad game for England? Their defence was terrible all tournament and they couldn't score a single try against Ireland, ITALY or Wales.

Time to be realistic and assess your team honestly.

Lets be realistic for once Tries do not all ways win games. It is the final score on the board that counts. And England had the most points on the board, that is why they kept winning. ok.

Eh what? Have I finally got you lost for words.

"Tries do not always win games". I agree and you've just re-iterated my point.

Defence wins games and Wales' has been fantastic. That is why flatman's team has 5 Welsh backs. You can't even argue with any Welsh selections up front. The Welsh pack has been awesome all tournament and annihilated England.

Wales are the form team. Two tournaments in a row speaks volumes. Show us your English dominated lions and please justify your selections.

majesticimperialman wrote:

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Too many Welsh players in that team and not enough other players from other nations.

Again i ask the question here is David Flatman looking the whole of the 6ns or just the last game between England and Wales?

One good game for Wales and Bad game for England should not be the deciding factor of how many for Englandf and Wales players go on the lions tour.

ONE bad game for England? Their defence was terrible all tournament and they couldn't score a single try against Ireland, ITALY or Wales.

Time to be realistic and assess your team honestly.

Lets be realistic for once Tries do not all ways win games. It is the final score on the board that counts. And England had the most points on the board, that is why they kept winning. ok.

What are you on about?

You know what your problem is? You criticise squads etc but then offer nothing as to who you would select instead of certain players. Try contributing more, you may surprise yourself with how much you know.

I suppose my earlier comment about Easter could have been construed as juvenile, actually it wasn't because I'm Welsh and therefore firmly of the belief that young Toby should be in there. No, it was a reaction to just having watched the Saracens, Quins game where Easter was non-existent as a force as far as I was concerned.

Mako Vunipola on the other hand was a bloody handful. I'm afraid with Faletau, Morgan, Heaslip and now Vunipola on the scene, Easter's glory days are well behind him.

8. Warburton
7. Tipuric
6. Lydiate

FORCE

Not a bad team, but don't like the back row and Phillips is not the man to unleash Sexton IMO.

Must be the new trend to endorse players who either aren't playing great for their nation or aren't playing for their country at all atm. If Hamilton makes the starting XV over the likes of Gray (if fit), POC (if fit), Evans, AWJ, Launchbury, Parling etc I'll be seriously questioning whether reality functions the way it used to.

Likewise I fail to grasp the reasoning behind looking at options who've a) retired from int'l rugby and are therefore unable to demonstrate whether they'd even make their side's first choice (ie JW, Shane...) or b) who are simply nowhere near their side's current first choice (ie Easter, Stevens...).

I find advocates for POC risible.I cannot remember the last time that I thought him effective.He runs like a lamppost and is prone to girlie arm waving to milk a pen for his side which is pretty distasteful.
He was pretty darn good in his day but that day is long gone.

If fit though I'd rather have him than Hamilton all day long. The former is a proven class operator who isn't necessarily entirely finished, just going through a torrid patch of injuries. Why only last year I recall many touting a POC-Gray partnership as the potential starters. Plus POC can be crafty and if on song might give the Lions that much more chance of disrupting the Aussie breakdown which may prove invaluable with Pocock likely to miss out. Whereas all I've ever really noticed Hamilton do is bumble around having brainfarts and giving away silly needless penalty, that which we certainly don't need Down Under. If he makes any significant contribution to the Scottish side I have yet to notice it, which is what I was originally taking issue with.

Are you seriously trying to say Hamilton didn't have a good 6Ns, he took two lineouts against AWJ in the first half. Agree he made a few silly mistakes in that match but his aggression alone stood out in the first half against Wales. If all you can remember is a "brainfart" you need to stay off the brains bitter and start watching the actual rugby match

His understanding with Gray has been very good and if he hadn't gone off injured in the first half who knows what might have happened

All I recall of him from that first half is that inexplicably stupid penalty he gave away which forfeited Scotland a half-time lead. Being a Scottish fan you've probably seen him play more often than I have and thus probably know more about him than I do, I'm just saying from a subjective point of view that I haven't seen him make a telling contribution for Scotland and therefore have a hard time agreeing with Flatman's opinion that he ought to start.

I seem to recall AWJ been a penalty machine under pressure..... stuck his leg out on two occasions and gave silly pens away.

Well lets just say that I would bet my house on him winning lineouts against AWJ, not saying that he is ahead of him but he isn't that far away, and while Jones is much more aware and intelligent on the field Hamilton is much more of a powerhouse in the setpiece, and a more aggressive runner of the ball which on the hard Oz surfaces makes much more sense.

AWJ isn't exactly a paragon of composure and intelligence either. However I might point out that the last time I remember a glaring error from Jones was three years ago when he tripped up Hartley. Compare that to Hamilton making a silly error just over a fortnight ago and you might get where I'm coming from.

Imo, Jones has also looked more active and impressed more for Wales, namely over the course of the RWC and the last two 6N's, than Hamilton has for Scotland. End of the day neither of them would make my starting XV if everyone was fit and on form.

Easter? a man too slow to play internationals

Phillips - no point in having outside backs when he delivers such slow ball - although I fear Gatland will play him. Roberts - what has he done to deserve a place?

If Phillips plays for the lions we we not win a game.

TJ wrote:Easter? a man too slow to play internationals

Phillips - no point in having outside backs when he delivers such slow ball - although I fear Gatland will play him. Roberts - what has he done to deserve a place?

If Phillips plays for the lions we we not win a game.

His passing and handling was lighting when Wales demolished England 30-3.

Stop talking tosh. The guy is unbelievably good, passionate and committed.

Deffo and we were all cheesed off with that, as it would have been 6-3 going into the 2nd half and the mindset would have been a tad different. What we have all got to realise is that the Oz pitches are going to be hard ideal for the guys with engines and fast of foot, players who can spin off on both legs, the likes of a Shane or a Jason Robertson will do well down under.

Faletau could fit the bill, Jon Davies could fit the bill, Hogg deffo could, and the big guys like Hamilton could fit the bill

Saying that you are correct Jones has been a different animal since he has come back from injury and fair do to him on the weekend his mind is on the Ospreys job and nothing else very impressive

Sorry - In the Wales England game his passing was glacial. His usual slow arrival at ruck, then look up, then pick up the ball then take two steps then pass. Several seconds have gone past during which time the defensive line got soreted.

He is good at what he does running, fighting, tackling - especially his tackling in this series. What he doesn't do is feed the outside backs with quick ball. Yes he is passionate and committed. However he is slow to deliver the pass

Numerous occasions during the game we could see this and was screaming at him to get the ball moving. Anyone who knows anything about rugby knows this is his flaw - his slowness to the ruck and his slowness to get the ball out and pass it

Jesus just let it go.

I want to win the lions series. I believe we will need to unleash the very potent backs we have. I know Phillips is not the man to do this. We will not win the series playing the way Wales have in this 6N.

We have a great set of backs. We need them to have quick ball

I know any faint criticism of any welsh player on these boards gets a disproportionate response however Phillips simply is not eh man to take the lions to victory. the last lions tour he cost us a game and eventually Blair got a bit of a game and showed what a real SH can do.

its a shame we have no one of the stature of Blair at his best right now but we do have SH with the attributes to get the backs decent
ball.

mikey_philVIII wrote:Jesus just let it go.

Is that what Roberts and Davies scream at Spikey?.................

Can't we get through one thread where someone expressing a different opinion from your own isn't "talking tosh"? I might not necessarily agree with TJ but he has a right to express his own opinion without being harassed by anti-social responses. End of the day we'll have the luxury of finding out who's right and wrong when the tour actually rolls around. At this stage I can't wait for it to be over just so people can pipe down and cut out the immature responses.

Phillips has silenced doubters many a time before, most notably on the last tour and most recently on the final weekend of the 6N. People keep saying he'll get shown up by a "real" SH and Genia definitely outplayed him last time they clashed. But then Phillips certainly got the better of Youngs, whom many had been tipping to start at 9 in the summer.

TJ wrote:I want to win the lions series. I believe we will need to unleash the very potent backs we have. I know Phillips is not the man to do this. We will not win the series playing the way Wales have in this 6N.

We have a great set of backs. We need them to have quick ball

I know any faint criticism of any welsh player on these boards gets a disproportionate response however Phillips simply is not eh man to take the lions to victory. the last lions tour he cost us a game and eventually Blair got a bit of a game and showed what a real SH can do.

its a shame we have no one of the stature of Blair at his best right now but we do have SH with the attributes to get the backs decent
ball.

As much as I would like Laidlaw to start at 9, I have to disagree with you with regard to Phillips who was just bloody immense against England and I think his passing has upped a notch this term. His overall game when on top form more than makes up for his slow service. I would be more concerned with the starting backrow.......... I hope Rennie continues where he left off on Friday as on form he is a country mile the best openside in the NH,

8 Morgan
7 Rennie
6 Lydiate

Would have made the difference between winning and losing down under, however I can see the following

8 Faletau
7 Warburton
6 Robshaw

starting which is distinctly second best IMO

Saying Phillips cost us a game on the 2009 Lions tour is a load of sh*t. I would agree that a certain Irish legend cost is the 2nd test (which he did with that stupid decision) but making up something because you dislike a player so much is poor show. As such, I think he will tour but Youngs will more likely be the test starter.

mikey_philVIII wrote:Saying Phillips cost us a game on the 2009 Lions tour is a load of sh*t. I would agree that a certain Irish legend cost is the 2nd test (which he did with that stupid decision) but making up something because you dislike a player so much is poor show. As such, I think he will tour but Youngs will more likely be the test starter.

Now you are talking a crock of sh1te............... not one instance in a game costs you that game

TJ wrote:eventually Blair got a bit of a game and showed what a real SH can do.
.

I assume that was a midweek game, as Harry Ellis was on the bench for tests

flyhalffactory wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:Saying Phillips cost us a game on the 2009 Lions tour is a load of sh*t. I would agree that a certain Irish legend cost is the 2nd test (which he did with that stupid decision) but making up something because you dislike a player so much is poor show. As such, I think he will tour but Youngs will more likely be the test starter.

Now you are talking a crock of sh1te............... not one instance in a game costs you that game

Why? Did I imagine ROG's up n under from our 22 then blatantly taking out Du Preez in the air? At that point the teams were locked on points and this gave bullseye Steyn the chance he needed to seal the game in the dying seconds. It is those decisions that cost you games. Thankfully I have much fonder memories of O'Gara which most rugby fans would,, so to speak.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:8. Warburton
7. Tipuric
6. Lydiate

FORCE

If we have the whole British and Irish nations to chose from we better not pick a single bloomin player out of position, I would pick Morgan, faletau, vunipola, easter, beattie, delve, heaslip over warbuton, wood, robshaw or anyone who can do 'job' at 8, same goes for centres, wing etc I want see specilist players that play there rugby in there starting positions week in and out

Am inclined to agree that ROG was the main reason we lost that game. He got steamrolled by Fourie for the try that allowed the Boks to draw level and make no mistake, to attempt an up and under from your own 22 and follow it up with a shocking challenge was pretty suicidal imo. Painful to watch after the Lions had worked so hard all game to establish a decent winning platform.

Yeah that was a ludicrous idea. I wish I didn't bring it up though. I got bored of discussing this point in the old 606. But i am intrigued to know where Phillips had cost us such a game.

mikey_philVIII wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:Saying Phillips cost us a game on the 2009 Lions tour is a load of sh*t. I would agree that a certain Irish legend cost is the 2nd test (which he did with that stupid decision) but making up something because you dislike a player so much is poor show. As such, I think he will tour but Youngs will more likely be the test starter.

Now you are talking a crock of sh1te............... not one instance in a game costs you that game

Why? Did I imagine ROG's up n under from our 22 then blatantly taking out Du Preez in the air? At that point the teams were locked on points and this gave bullseye Steyn the chance he needed to seal the game in the dying seconds. It is those decisions that cost you games. Thankfully I have much fonder memories of O'Gara which most rugby fans would,, so to speak.

The Lions lead 19-8 but awful weak tackling and woeful positioning left Bryan Habana (63 min) and Jaque Fourie (74 min) in for late tries they just shouldn't have scored I can name the defensive culprits but if I did I would be no better than you.

ROG did not cost us the 2nd test

You wouldn't name the culprits as one of them was the same player to cost us that test. No you wouldn't like to prove me to be correct I know.

ROG didn't make the tackle, but after that MIKE PHILLIPS and BOWE didn't stop him, so no you are not correct

you'd have to be pretty insane to hold Phillips accountable for the brilliance of Fourie there. One would think Fourie bumped him off like he was a bowling pin... Oh wait that happened to ROG. My view is the same as it always has been. Some guys on here just continually 'hate upon' Phillips, it's getting tedious and sad.

Well looking back at it:

Second Try by Habana - poor defending by Wallace and Stephen Jones.
Third Try starts due to a dumb penalty given away by Simon Shaw followed by poor defence by ROG, Phillip[s and Bowe.

Looks like the only "innocents" were the Scots, perhaps because none made it on to the pitch.

Phillips made the tackle and Fourie was arguably in touch. He had a lot of work to do by that point and did well. Therefore I don't see where there was an act of poor defence by Phillips.

Edit: LT don't take anything away from RSA in those scenarios. They showed some world class moves and finishes.

I don't hate Phillips if you read my post earlier on in this post you will see that I have praised him and think he should start the Lions tests, I am just saying you have blamed one instance for losing the test, I was lucky to watch the 09 series over there, and yes the 13 or 14 mins that ROG was on was exactly his crowning moments but fourie is hell of a lump, and he slowed him down albeit he could have done better but hell he was almost on the touchline when Phillips and Bowe got to him, they both should have at least put him in touch.

We wouldn't be talking about OGara's moment of madness then

I didn't name you as a 'hater' of Phillips fly half. He has a fair few from various nations though and I can not see where it stems from. If we take Ashton and Hartley for example, most can see why they are disliked. For reasons mentioned I still hold ROG accountable for how things ended in that test, but not Phillips, who played his heart out and was at the front of everything the lions did so well in that series. Phillips also deserves to go on this tour as there only probably one, maybe two scrum halves playing better, arguably. I'm envious you were there in South Africa for that tour, I bet it was out of this world! I've met a few Afrikaners on my travels and they're passionate rugby fans and nice people.

Ok tell me where Phillips was when Fourie du Preez (the SA 9) released Bryan Habanna for the 2nd try?.......and where should he have been?

Just out of interest

So overall ROG cannot be held fully accountable for letting the Boks claw back level. As I recall though, he received no assistance from the other Lions in committing the error that gifted Steyn a very straight, kickable penalty, that looked, from my pov at least, like entirely his own instigation. Of course there's no definitive evidence that the Lions wouldn't have lost anyway had that error not been committed but putting aside the what if's and looking at things the way they panned out, I think it's only fair ROG ships the bulk of responsibility on that. Criticism is intended here to draw attention to and thus prevent such crucial mistakes from being repeated, nothing personal towards the R o' the G as a general player.

Knowsit17 wrote:So overall ROG cannot be held fully accountable for letting the Boks claw back level. As I recall though, he received no assistance from the other Lions in committing the error that gifted Steyn a very straight, kickable penalty, that looked, from my pov at least, like entirely his own instigation. Of course there's no definitive evidence that the Lions wouldn't have lost anyway had that error not been committed but putting aside the what if's and looking at things the way they panned out, I think it's only fair ROG ships the bulk of responsibility on that. Criticism is intended here to draw attention to and thus prevent such crucial mistakes from being repeated, nothing personal towards the R o' the G as a general player.

Totally 100% ROG error, there was less than 60 seconds left and all he had to do was at least put it in touch or bloody passed it to one of the forwards to retain into a ruck

On reviewing the footage it looks like Phillips was covering blind, hint of a block from RSA number 6. Personally I don't think he should have been in any particular place apart from where he was. What do you think?

I wouldn't hold any individual responsible for that lovely piece of work by the boks. However when someone acts as a speed bump then single handedly has a moment of madness which gives the opposition the game just minutes later, I begin to point the finger.

First of all it was an uncontested scrum when Fourie du Preez put the ball in Phillips actually had his back to the scrum and was looking away pointing to something!!! absolutely scandelous, a quick roundhouse movement and du Preez was gone loop passing to Habbana by which time Phillips had actually now looked to see if the ball was about to be put in WHAT!!! and was caught in the traffic.

That was as poor defensive cover of a scrumhalf as I have seen at test level, no bloody awareness at all......

And I haven't seen that for four years but it was and still is etched in our memory

Kelly Brown has to be in the mix surely? Been consistently strong for club and country. Yet again part of a powerful backrow performance yesterday.

Not sure why Lydiate is even being considered - bearing in mind he's not been playing recently.

flyhalffactory Ross Rennie?

I would like to see a backrow of

6.Brown
7.Tipuric
8.Faletau