Why is the Top 14 so much richer than the Aviva or Pro 12?

The Top 14 is able to offer wages that teams in the other 2 leagues cannot match, but where do the increased funds in the Top 14 come from?

Is TV much much bigger?
sponsorships bigger?
Crowds massively bigger?
and if so why?

Can AP and Pro 12 catch up on these?

With the salary cap blamed at holding some leading Engish clubs back, but making the league more competative, and ensuring the survival of the smaller clubs. Do the smaller French clubs struggle to survive? Is it boom and bust?

I've heard people say its benefactors willing to plow millions into the teams, but surly this is only two or three team, a most of the 14 wouldn't have rich backers wasting millions?

Why is there a money gap between the other leagues and Top 14? Can we catch up? Have they pulled ahead temporarily, due to better deals and we will catch up?

Will the rules no non French players, bring them back down slightly?

or will they continue to grow, untill the Aviva and Pro 12 are like the Scottish league compared to the Premiership?

Kingshu wrote:The Top 14 is able to offer wages that teams in the other 2 leagues cannot match, but where do the increased funds in the Top 14 come from?

Is TV much much bigger?

Much bigger than Rabo, but not bigger than AP deal with Sky. BT deal will give AP clubs more than T14 get.

sponsorships bigger?

I believe so - much bigger. Michelin put a lot of money into Clermont.

Crowds massively bigger?

Not significantly compared to AP but quite a lot bigger than Rabo. Average 2011/12 attendance 13,269 (AP 12,925, Rabo 7,856)

and if so why?

The other thing to take into account is that we have quite a lot of Municipal funding as well as some rich owners. Monferrand and Toulouse both fund their teams I believe.
Final thought is population size - France has about 65m people, England 53m, Scotland 5m, Wales 3m, NI + RoI 6m. T14 followed by AP will always be able to strike bigger deals compared to individual Rabo countries - whether it is TV or sponsorship, as the markets are so much bigger.

Can AP and Pro 12 catch up on these?

AP is already close in terms of TV deals, but could do more on sponsorship. Municipal funding will never happen.
Rabo will struggle to close the financial gap. Whiel a deal has been signed with Sky it is still a pittance - and really they need Italy to continue developing as they have the population to support increased revenues. If they get to a decent size though it is unlikely they will show much gratitude and will look to get a bigger share of the pot.

Go to the likes of Toulouse and Perpignan - prime location supporters shops.

Sales are huge

To be fair the Irish Provinces Prob have the same sponsorship, and crowds as the top teams in the Aviva, we do not receive the same TV money, but do get more support from the Union.

So I would put them on a par with top Aviva teams.

If your correct LondonTiger, it would see only a few English players, move to France, and the worry about the Top 14 hovering up all the talent would be gone.

Whats saving the British and Irish players from being hoovered up by France is the quantity of southern hemisphere players they're signing. They'll probably continue to sign mostly SH players which means the other countries can expect to lose only a handful of their internationals.


The downside for the French is their national team will suffer. Ireland have only 4 teams so we struggle in some positions because of foreign players but France with 14 teams are heading that way too. Their U20 side was very poor and theres not a whole lot the French union can do because the clubs run the game.


With the new BT deal it might help the English catch up a bit. The Rabo will continue to grow too but is still a bit behind the other leagues although growing at a faster rate.

Why is it so much richer ? Becuase of all the sugar daddies sinking their money into their clubs, lets not forget, it is not all the clubs who are flashing the cash, just a unique few, Toulon for one, Perp is another, Stad Francais have not so long ago gone bust because of this, it is all down to rich owners.

One of the owners of a t14 club is one of the richest men in France

There arn't that many super rich French teams if its sugar dadies,

Toulon, Racing Metro, Perp?
Toulouse are a big team, do they have a big fan base or benefactor or both?
Stade used to but don't seam to receive the same support

don't think Castres Olympique, Montpellier , Biarritz Olympique or any of the smaller teams have benefactors?


So is it really 2/3 clubs pushing up the wages across Europe?

I don't really think benefactors are the sole reason for the Top 14 being big speanders, as th eother teams attract plenty of top players as well

Kingshu wrote:To be fair the Irish Provinces Prob have the same sponsorship, and crowds as the top teams in the Aviva, we do not receive the same TV money, but do get more support from the Union.

Shane Logan said as much last year when he said that Ulster total salary bill (including Dublin iput) was on a par with Ospreys, Munster, Leinster and the leading English clubs

England have Football (Premiership) to drag big funding sponsors to..does France have the same priority for football there? I wouldn't know as I don't even follow English Premiership. But I have a feeling rugby is probably the 'football' sport in France? Yes? No?

As for the Pro12..that's simply down to numbers not there to compete with a competition like Top14 in money terms. But, if Italy became more interested in the game at club level..that's a big potential market.

All french teams are a bit different to each other when it comes to funding but I would say the following are probably the differences with the AP and the P12 :
- private sponsorship : Toulouse have founded its wealth on a network of small regional sponsors (probably around 50 of them, not all have their name on the shirt). you will often find big industrial names behind some of the provincial clubs.
- public sponsorship : yes the towns gives some subsidies to the clubs but lets face it, this account for like 100-150 k€ per year and/or a free/cheap access to the town stadium
- marketing / merchandinsing: proper source of income here and some clubs like toulon are quite good at it and go as far as managing their players image (wilkinson for example)
- agree that the tv deal is not that good and is equally spread amongst to all professional clubs anyway
- the sugar daddy thing is quite limited but sometimes it's hidden through big sponsorship (Fabre at Castres, Altrad at Montpelier). Some owners did put some of their own money to keep their clubs affloat recently but appart from Stade Français and maybe Bayonne I cannot see many examples. Toulon doesnt fall anymore in this category despite all the cliches around them but I have doubts about Racing funding though (very rich owner).
- tickets sale : last time I went to see a racing game in their colombes stadium (that they actually dont pay for ) , average ticket price was 30 euros so not exactly cheap. how much is it in UK and Ireland? A bottom team like Bordeaux begles can fill a few times a year a 34000 people stadium which is great boost for their small budget (500keuro extra revenu for a 10M€ budget).Parisian clubs can almost fill the stade de France and the basque ones go to anoeta on time to time.


things are somehow changing though : more clubs are calling for reducing the salaries (in effect a lower salary cap) and more clubs like Toulouse (who just registred a loss for the 1st time in the pro era) are affected by the economic downturn... the one who looks to be in most danger would be Perpignan who will struggle to keep up with the spedning of the top 6 and is based in a relatively small area.

Ticket prices at the Stoop are £22-45 so quite similar whocares

I don't get why attendances are so much bigger in France than in England. Or tv money either. And they are.

As a teenager I remember the Toulouse rugby team were in Ireland using a rugby ground local to me for some Summer training. To this day I don't know why. But the conversations about Toulouse then (1990?) were that they were on a level with the best clubs in Europe but not the hugely popular team they are today. Today the rugby stadium in Toulouse dwarfs the football one, in terms of popularity there rugby is far ahead and the players are stars. Some clubs in the UK also had money thrown at them but the people locally didn't give them this kind of following.

The bad news about both the salary cap there, and the quota of French trained players on each team, is that the clubs have rebelled already against both. After only two years the salary cap was increased and the clubs refuse to reduce the quota of foreign players to one third of the squad, which again was agreed only a few years ago. This suggest that the majority of clubs have close to €9 million to spend on salaries or they wouldn't agree to the increase.

What's so sad about this for the French is seeing the standard of their national team slide down and knowing that the FFR has little power to stop this.

The French clubs have investment and discounts from their local councils with regards to their stadiums. Which is something the British teams don't have.

Secondly the tv deal the French have is much bigger than they sky one and the rabo direct one.

Intotouch wrote:I don't get why attendances are so much bigger in France than in England.

But they are not. In 2011/12 T14 averaged just over 13k per match, AP just under. Not a huge difference.