Terrible / controversial judging calls, and our perspectives of them

First topic message reminder :

Afternoon, gentlemen.

Quick and to the point, as I desperately need some debate to help get me through this final, terrible day before a long weekend of bliss. Let's talk some of boxing's most horrific judging decicions and the different angles you can consider them from.

What was the very worst one you've seen? Which ones did you think were bad'uns, but which seldom get described as such? Which ones do you regularly see trashed as great injustices despite you thinking that such claims are over-blown? If you could pick out one particular awful judging call and correct it by going backwards in time, which one would you pick, and why?

Naturally, I've got a fair few in my head, but it'd be good to see which ones you guys offer up, and from which of the above angles you decide to view them from; a travesty, an overblown storm in a tea cup, a simple shocker or one which you'd like to put right more than any other.

Let's have it, then. Cheers.

Mr Bounce wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Your very own Michael Brodie was screwed out of a title a few years back.....Mexican fighter with the Mexican WBC...........

Yup - Brodie against Willie Jorrin. Ridiculous decision, that one. Poor guy got jobbed in his own country. It was a close-ish fight, but I still had Brodie 2-3 ahead.

Yes that was a poor decision.

Jorrin then got another gift against Oscar Larios before suffering a 1st round knock out in the rematch. Some would call that justice.

Leonard -Hagler ............Remember the 118-110 card.

Wow, a thread about robberies in which Truss has not brought up 10-1-1. No more wumming from the beefster?

Manny-Marquez 1 anybody remember that???

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Leonard -Hagler ............Remember the 118-110 card.

Quite agree truss, and the other judges were even more biased to hagler

Rios abril worst I've seen also Martinez cintron I've never seen I fighter win 3 ways and still draw

Talking of Leonard I remember being vexed at the draw with Hearns. Maybe not a robbery but Tommy was wronged that night.

Leonard waiting for Haglar and Hearns to get old and then getting the rub of the green on the judges cards was annoying.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Your very own Michael Brodie was screwed out of a title a few years back.....Mexican fighter with the Mexican WBC...........

Always reallly liked Michael Brodie, gave it everything. Tried to make acomeback a while back and it really didn't go well, was completely finished. Always sad when you see that.

Strongback wrote:Talking of Leonard I remember being vexed at the draw with Hearns. Maybe not a robbery but Tommy was wronged that night.

Leonard waiting for Haglar and Hearns to get old and then getting the rub of the green on the judges cards was annoying.

Yeah agree, the second knockdown had put the fight into pretty much no dispute for Hearns.

Actually I rewatched that fight a couple of months back, even better than the first fight when they were in there primes.

milkyboy wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Leonard -Hagler ............Remember the 118-110 card.

Quite agree truss, and the other judges were even more biased to hagler

Seriously Milky, how did you score the fight?

Barrera v Morales I. It was a close, competitive fight but it was hardly difficult to score. Especially galling given the absolute hiding Morales received in the final round.

I've always been on the side of each Pacquiao Marquez encounter being a close fight. I found the last four rounds of number III far too Holly Wilaboobie for tat for the most part to call it such a travesty. Personally thought if Marquez had got the win in either of the first two people wouldn't be so infuriated by it.

Scott v Glazkov was shameless and Cunningham v Adamek II was irritating.

Hearns v Leonard II. The final round was given as a 10-8 by one judge, which is why it was a draw rather than a Hearns win. Watch the final round. That is not a 10-8.

Well, JBW, Hearns did take a bit of a beating in the final round... On the border of a 10-8 to be fair.

Atila wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Leonard -Hagler ............Remember the 118-110 card.

Quite agree truss, and the other judges were even more biased to hagler

Seriously Milky, how did you score the fight?

After all these years of us bitching about it, Atila, have we never even discussed scorecards? Last time I watched it, I think I had Leonard by 2. A lot of close rounds. Never had a beef with anyone seeing it for hagler, only with those that scream robbery. How did you have it?

Strongback wrote:Talking of Leonard I remember being vexed at the draw with Hearns. Maybe not a robbery but Tommy was wronged that night.

Leonard waiting for Haglar and Hearns to get old and then getting the rub of the green on the judges cards was annoying.

Terrible how he waited for them to get old, without ageing himself. What a con artist, ducker he was.

He has said he thought hearns should have got the nod in the return. Considering what a t*sser everyone thinks he is, it's pretty unusual for a fighter to admit he got a favour... Especially in a fairly close fight.

milkyboy wrote:

Strongback wrote:Talking of Leonard I remember being vexed at the draw with Hearns. Maybe not a robbery but Tommy was wronged that night.

Leonard waiting for Haglar and Hearns to get old and then getting the rub of the green on the judges cards was annoying.

Terrible how he waited for them to get old, without ageing himself. What a con artist, ducker he was.

He has said he thought hearns should have got the nod in the return. Considering what a t*sser everyone thinks he is, it's pretty unusual for a fighter to admit he got a favour... Especially in a fairly close fight.

Leonard said himself he decided to fight Haglar after the Mugabi fight as Marvin looked like father time was catching up with him.

Hearns had been calling for a rematch since the first fight so why did it take so long to happen?

I remember those fights well as I was training in a boxing gym at the time and these were hot topics. The feeling then was Leonard bided his time. Leonard was also pretty inactive for more than 5 years and didn't have the same wear and tear. I'm not saying Leonard wasn't a genius but of the two fights I mentioned one could have gone either way and the other he should have lost.

Sadly, im old enough to remember it too strongback. You'll also remember that for all the contractual favours srl gleaned, no-one gave him a prayer. Hagler's decline from mugabi is a theory leonard put in people's mind retrospectively, showing us how clever he was, pretty much no-one else spotted it. Mugabi was a highly touted ko merchant and gave a brave account of himself before hagler showed his mettle once again. Of more concern to the bookies and pundits was the one fight in 5 years and weight disadvantage for Leonard. I really don't get the big deal with this, he messed hagler about earlier with a 'will he won't he' get the fight on, but Srl knew he wasn't the same after his lay-off. Big deal if he thought a post prime version of himself could beat a post prime hagler.

Leonard retired in 82 with the detached retina and he might well have spent a year or so in training for the fight, with hagler but the previous four year's training regime was largely based on putting white powder up his nose. Unimpressive against howard, the post lay off Leonard, like post Vietnam Ali was a leg weary version of the original.

So if you 're looking at a balanced opinion you can weigh up a natural welter with let's call it ring rust and a penchant for mind games, against a natural middle coming to the end of his career.

As for hearns 2 when really was this going to happen earlier? So tommy wanted a rematch, of course he did, everyone wanted a piece of leonard. Its like the leonard ducked pryor rubbish you hear. if leonard had fought loads if bums throughout the 80's it would have some credence. When it did happen, super middle was hardly favouring Leonard.

Post comeback leonard was a belt chasing glory fest, and with shambles like the lalonde fight he didn't cover himself in glory. But the fact he gloats in outsmarting the competition and people dont like him, just gives people ammunition for conspiracy theories and one eyed perspectives.

Hagler got to fight the glamour boy welter he always wanted, and hearns got his redemption fight at a weight that suited him, just 2 fights (for srl) later. I do agree that he got the rub of the two decisions. But if people are going to slate him for the timing of the fights, they need to also acknowledge that they were past his own prime and well above his best weight.

Leonard was outboxed and hurt by Hearns........That's why it took so long....

Hearns jab for me was one of the most potent weapons in Boxing.. lightning fast and the right hand rolled of it...

Leonard couldn't find a way past it before Hearns tired and Robinson and all the others would have struggled to......

Leonard dodged a bullet and KNEW IT!!

Agree with the general feeling of Hearns-Leonard II; not a blatant robbery or stitch up, but fortune favoured Ray that night for sure. In terms of who won what rounds, Leonard was actually much closer to Tommy in that fight than he was in the first, but the two knockdowns should really have put it beyond doubt.

Watched Leonard-Hagler yet again very recently and, for the first time ever, I didn't have Leonard ahead at the end. Didn't have Hagler ahead either, mind you, as I saw it six rounds apiece. That said, I did find myself giving Hagler a round outright that my instincts said was probably a 10-10, so I still maintain that Leonard was the ever so slightly superior man on the night to that end. Truss will put Duran at the top of his all-time pound for pound list before the debate over that one ever dies down.

I think the 10-8 final round was the robbery................

Whilst it may have been justified....It wasn't and isn't common practice unless someone tastes the deck.

Honey v Vaca1. Ridiculous ruling by the wbc where in the event of an accidental clash of heads the boxer who isn't injured loses a point. Cost Honey the title.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Leonard was outboxed and hurt by Hearns........That's why it took so long....

Hearns jab for me was one of the most potent weapons in Boxing.. lightning fast and the right hand rolled of it...

Leonard couldn't find a way past it before Hearns tired and Robinson and all the others would have struggled to......

Leonard dodged a bullet and KNEW IT!!

Outboxed and outreached truss on the end of that jab for sure. Leonard well behind and stung at times but never in trouble though. Unlike tommy. Agree tommy gives any guy including robbo trouble at welter...Until they knock him out!

Probably only curry gets past that jab

It's a bit ask but if you're willing to try and walk through his jab then Hearns is very beatable.

I've never been a massive fan of Leonard and his 'i'm so clever' persona, brilliant as he was I find him very hard to like and do think he got away with daylight robbery against both Hagler and Hearns. I just can't give him much credit for the pitter patter combos he was throwing, if he was coming close to hurting Hagler then it would have been a legitimate tactic.

milkyboy wrote:Sadly, im old enough to remember it too strongback. You'll also remember that for all the contractual favours srl gleaned, no-one gave him a prayer. Hagler's decline from mugabi is a theory leonard put in people's mind retrospectively, showing us how clever he was, pretty much no-one else spotted it. Mugabi was a highly touted ko merchant and gave a brave account of himself before hagler showed his mettle once again. Of more concern to the bookies and pundits was the one fight in 5 years and weight disadvantage for Leonard. I really don't get the big deal with this, he messed hagler about earlier with a 'will he won't he' get the fight on, but Srl knew he wasn't the same after his lay-off. Big deal if he thought a post prime version of himself could beat a post prime hagler.

Leonard retired in 82 with the detached retina and he might well have spent a year or so in training for the fight, with hagler but the previous four year's training regime was largely based on putting white powder up his nose. Unimpressive against howard, the post lay off Leonard, like post Vietnam Ali was a leg weary version of the original.

So if you 're looking at a balanced opinion you can weigh up a natural welter with let's call it ring rust and a penchant for mind games, against a natural middle coming to the end of his career.

As for hearns 2 when really was this going to happen earlier? So tommy wanted a rematch, of course he did, everyone wanted a piece of leonard. Its like the leonard ducked pryor rubbish you hear. if leonard had fought loads if bums throughout the 80's it would have some credence. When it did happen, super middle was hardly favouring Leonard.

Post comeback leonard was a belt chasing glory fest, and with shambles like the lalonde fight he didn't cover himself in glory. But the fact he gloats in outsmarting the competition and people dont like him, just gives people ammunition for conspiracy theories and one eyed perspectives.

Hagler got to fight the glamour boy welter he always wanted, and hearns got his redemption fight at a weight that suited him, just 2 fights (for srl) later. I do agree that he got the rub of the two decisions. But if people are going to slate him for the timing of the fights, they need to also acknowledge that they were past his own prime and well above his best weight.

You've provided good analysis there Milky. After that it's just comes down to interpretation. Two sides to every story and all that.

Honeyghan got what he deserved....Watch any of his fights and the guy was fouling all the time with his head and other parts of the anatomy...

Yung kil chung should have been given the title for the crack in the bollox...

Shame he couldn't get close enough to Starling to get the nut in..

"If you're willing to try to walk through the jab!" Did you ever see how hard his jab was...no one could walk through it!!

milkyboy wrote:

Atila wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Leonard -Hagler ............Remember the 118-110 card.

Quite agree truss, and the other judges were even more biased to hagler

Seriously Milky, how did you score the fight?

After all these years of us bitching about it, Atila, have we never even discussed scorecards? Last time I watched it, I think I had Leonard by 2. A lot of close rounds. Never had a beef with anyone seeing it for hagler, only with those that scream robbery. How did you have it?

I can't remember if we actually discussed scorecards milky. What I do remember is that anytime Hagler Leonard came up you got very abusive and automatically slammed anyone who disagreed with the decision as a "Leonard hater". My scorecard was 115-113 Hagler, 7 rounds to 5.

I have to admire the way you still keep defending Leonard even though he pulls the rug out from under your feet. He himself is the one who says that he knew Hagler was slipping, so decided to comeback and fight him. Though, if you had listened to me all those years ago you would have known that already. I always thought that this was pretty obvious?

As for Leoanrd v Hearns. All that needs to be said is that Leonard and Hearns were on a TV show and Leonard admitted that Tommy had won their second fight.

Had it to Leonard by four.........

Hagler lost the fight...Leonard didn't "win" it..

Struggle to make anyone a genuine favourite against Hearns at WW despite SRL beating him to be honest.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Struggle to make anyone a genuine favourite against Hearns at WW despite SRL beating him to be honest.

Really, what about Honeyghan? After all, he smashed the s*#t out of Don Curry.

Pick Hearns to beat Leonard over 12 everytime............

Imperial Ghosty wrote:It's a bit ask but if you're willing to try and walk through his jab then Hearns is very beatable.

I've never been a massive fan of Leonard and his 'i'm so clever' persona, brilliant as he was I find him very hard to like and do think he got away with daylight robbery against both Hagler and Hearns. I just can't give him much credit for the pitter patter combos he was throwing, if he was coming close to hurting Hagler then it would have been a legitimate tactic.

At the same time if Hagler had actually done something especially early, he would have made it beyond doubt.

Atila wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Struggle to make anyone a genuine favourite against Hearns at WW despite SRL beating him to be honest.

Really, what about Honeyghan? After all, he smashed the s*#t out of Don Curry.

True, it was a bit of a beat down Atila...

Honeyghan v Curry 4-1- 1......

Honeyghan v Starling 1-8.....Being generous....

Which one is the beat down..........

I think the fact that Leonard didn't hurt Hagler is immaterial, really. He might have thrown a lot of 'pitter patter', but what's better, throwing a lot of pitter patter or throwing basically nothing, which is a trap Hagler fell in to in the early rounds as he stalked without really letting any meaningful shots fly?

Leonard was the quicker man so naturally was going to use that speed to get in and out quickly, draw counters and use the ring. Hagler never tried to actually set anything up with the jab until about the eighth round and before that was just too cumbersome to catch Leonard coming in or take advantage of the times when he had Ray on the ropes or backing in to the corners.

Hagler was warming to the task quite nicely in the latter rounds but just left himself a bit too much to do, for me. I can see how someone could have Hagler up at the end, but to call it a robbery doesn't sit well with me. Don't see how anyone could have it as anything other than a seriously, seriously close fight.

Did Hagler hurt Leonard??

Watched Starling v Honey the other night and felt sorry for Honeyghan.....Not only was he humiliated but even after the fight Starling played down his win rather than boast about it...

"Always said he got a burnt out Curry....He had a bit of a punch but nothing else...always wanted the green belt".......

Poor old Honey not given any respect before or after........

Beautiful boxing lesson though...shame he didn't learn from it..

Always watch the US broadcast though...that Carpenter guy was a real muppet...

AlexHuckerby wrote:Well, JBW, Hearns did take a bit of a beating in the final round... On the border of a 10-8 to be fair.

Disagree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lpphvIzM4c Got to 04:00 for round 12. Hearns clearly outboxes Leonard for the first minute and snaps Leonard's head back several times. Then it gets dull briefly and then Hearns gets hurt, but Tommy spoils successfully and Leonard doesn't actually land that much clean despite how hurt Hearns was. Given how cleanly Hearns was landing in the first minute I can't see how that's a 10-8. Regardless, Hearns had already done enough.

Once you've humiliated Curry not sure he was ever too bothered how his career panned out, he beat your boy easily and you hate it .

Who is higher in the alltime list..........

Who won Truss, he made your boy quit like a dog, couldn't hack being hit back.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Watched Starling v Honey the other night..

I hope you've cleaned the sheets truss

Atila wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

Atila wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Leonard -Hagler ............Remember the 118-110 card.

Quite agree truss, and the other judges were even more biased to hagler

Seriously Milky, how did you score the fight?

After all these years of us bitching about it, Atila, have we never even discussed scorecards? Last time I watched it, I think I had Leonard by 2. A lot of close rounds. Never had a beef with anyone seeing it for hagler, only with those that scream robbery. How did you have it?

I can't remember if we actually discussed scorecards milky. What I do remember is that anytime Hagler Leonard came up you got very abusive and automatically slammed anyone who disagreed with the decision as a "Leonard hater". My scorecard was 115-113 Hagler, 7 rounds to 5.

I have to admire the way you still keep defending Leonard even though he pulls the rug out from under your feet. He himself is the one who says that he knew Hagler was slipping, so decided to comeback and fight him. Though, if you had listened to me all those years ago you would have known that already. I always thought that this was pretty obvious?

As for Leoanrd v Hearns. All that needs to be said is that Leonard and Hearns were on a TV show and Leonard admitted that Tommy had won their second fight.

You mean after all this bickering, we both have fairly moderate cards?

I think I conceded the points in your last 2 paras... But as ever with the one eyed hagler luvvies, I have to explain that life's not so simple

Cleaned the sheets after the Breland-Honey fight!!

Now that was comedy gold...20-14 after two rounds

Hmmm, boring thread. Favourite ko's anyone? I'll start, Jackson Norris, and mccallum curry.

Coming back to Hagler-Leonard...why not start the way he did against Hearns...

Sure Leonard may have spoiled but Hagler goes ahead on the cards early..

Leonard got to him truss, hagler tried to get clever. had he been able to get over the bitterness, when he reflected on that night he'd think he blew it, rather than he got shafted. At the very least he gave Leonard a start and gave the judges the opportunity to see it differently to him. Deep down I think he probably knows that too.

I agree...Hagler lost that fight...as much as Leonard won it..

What about fighters getting ripped off in their own home towns? Who else here has seen Alfredo Escalera's 'win' against Tyrone Everett in Philadelphia, Everett's backyard? Everett was a super-smooth, quicksilver boxer and many thought he was the man to give Arguello all sorts of problems when they eventually met at 130 lb. But Escalera held on to his WBC belt with a scandalously unjust verdict and, even worse, Everett was dead in mysterious circumstances within a few months of the fight.

Chris is going all deep on us.......

What about my last fight......what a robbery that was........

I must have landed dozens of blows on his fists...

and he got the decision...I was so disgusted I never fought again..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Chris is going all deep on us.......

What about my last fight......what a robbery that was........

I must have landed dozens of blows on his fists...

and he got the decision...I was so disgusted I never fought again..

My work was clearly more effective, Truss. I controlled the fight.

I Tko'd all them girls that beat you up........

What I want to know is does that make me higher on the ATG list..