Latest European rumblings

Rather desperate PR effort from the Torygraph on the part of PRL and McCafferty:

Heineken Cup under threat as top English clubs consider alternatives

England’s leading clubs are set to consider a number of radical alternatives to the Heineken Cup at a board meeting next month that could shape the future of the European game, Telegraph Sport can disclose.

Up for discussion are a world club championship, a fourth England Test match every autumn and an expanded Premiership.

An enhanced and expanded Anglo-Welsh competition, including a new sevens tournament, is also expected to come under consideration as an alternative to the nine European weekends in the current season.

It is understood Premiership Rugby is to put the proposals to club owners and shareholders amid increasing frustration at the lack of progress on negotiations with its fellow European Rugby Cup stakeholders over the future structure of the current European competitions.

The English and French clubs served the necessary two years’ notice to leave the current accord that governs the Heineken and Amlin Challenge Cup more than nine months ago.

The English clubs, along with their French counterparts, are demanding reform of the Heineken Cup, including a reduction of the number of clubs from 24 to 20, a strengthening of the Amlin Challenge Cup and the introduction of a third tier competition.

While it would still prefer to strike a deal with its ERC stakeholders and make new European competitions work, Premiership Rugby is not prepared to accept the status quo, which guarantees all four Italian and Scottish Pro12 clubs places in the Heineken Cup.

After four stakeholder meetings, there is still no sign of any agreement being reached. With no further meetings planned – and it is understood the issue was not raised at the regular ERC board meeting last week ahead of this weekend’s quarter-finals – there is a growing sense of urgency in the English game to consider real alternatives for the 2014-15 season when, in the absence of agreement, the Heineken Cup will cease to exist.

Premiership Rugby has already presented a compromise over its original demand that only the top six of the Pro12 clubs should qualify for the Heineken Cup, suggesting that the top four Pro12 sides would qualify, with the final two qualifiers based on geography to ensure every country was represented in the tournament. That has not been accepted by the other ERC stakeholders.

Parallel to its search for a European solution, Premiership Rugby is understood to have held exploratory talks with the Super Rugby clubs in the southern hemisphere as well as the Welsh regions.

It is understood the possibility of a world club championship, staged every two years and involving the champions of the leagues in the northern and southern hemisphere including Super Rugby, is one concept expected to be put forward for further consideration by the English club owners.

A Premiership expanded from 12 to 14 sides would also give clubs an extra two home games and four extra rounds, and their financial position is strengthened by the controversial new television deal with BT Vision, which for Premiership games alone will almost cover current income from both the Premiership and European competitions.

That deal caused widespread anger in the Celtic unions and led to ERC also announcing on the same day last September an extension of the current agreement with Sky Sports.

Premiership Rugby is also likely to present a proposal for consideration to extend its current deal of releasing its players to the Rugby Football Union once every two years for a fourth Test match outside the International Rugby Board autumn window.

A fourth Test every year would be worth at least £3 million in extra revenue to the Premiership clubs, who currently receive around £8.5 million for their participation in the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup.

Reform of the distribution of central ERC revenue is also one of the main demands of the English and French clubs. Currently the Pro12 clubs receive 52 per cent of funding with the English and French receiving 24 per cent each.

That format has meant the Pro12 clubs have benefited to the tune of €30  million (£25.5 million) over the last five years, according to Premiership Rugby’s calculations. The English and French clubs both want an equal three-way split in funding between the three leagues.

Exploratory talks with the four regions in Wales last month are unlikely to lead to Welsh clubs joining the Premiership despite the fallout between the Cardiff Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys and Newport Gwent Dragons over funding and player contracts. However, Premiership Rugby believes the commercial value of the LV Cup has not been maximised.

The potential for increased revenues as part of the Premiership’s BT Vision deal for European games could also tempt the Welsh regions to consider a new European competition if the dispute over the Heineken Cup is not resolved.

How clubs could fill their vacant European weekends

Plan A
A world club championship, held every two years, could run over two or three weekends, bringing together the champions of leagues from both hemispheres including Super Rugby clubs. Talks have already been held with SANZAR clubs, and the likes of Natal Sharks would be a huge draw in England.

Plan B
A Premiership expanded from 12 to 14 clubs would give each club two more guaranteed home games – they presently host three in the European competition – and four extra rounds. An enhanced Anglo-Welsh tournament would also help fill the nine European weekends.

Plan C
Allowing the release of their players for a fourth England Test match outside of the International Rugby Board window every autumn – currently they are released only once every two years – could net the Premiership clubs an extra £3million per game. Their present annual share of ERC revenue is £8.5million.

Until McCafferty puts his own house in order, see thread regarding Prem finances, then it's not clear why any of the other nations involved (NOT leagues FFS!) should take him seriously - you sir are a contemptible hypocrite

So no new information then?

Excellent summary, Thunor! However on the basis of a requirement for waffle, I don't foresee a career in journalism for you!

Asbo,

To counterbalance try reading the reporting in Times and Sunday times - so one-eyed and biased the other way it makes this seem balanced.

From Rupert Murdoch through to Mark McCafferty via the cyborg that is Roger Gallacher Lewis they all appear to be hypocrites. Less said about the morals of ERC boss Jean-Pierre Lux the better.

Indeed, my friend

sounds more like just a Premiership press release. I love the bit about the Premiership have already compromised by allowing the Rabo team to have 4+2 instead of 6. That is some compromise and an incredibly generous offer. The argumenst still stands of course that (a) why should the Rabo take a 4 team cut while the English and French take none. (b) its got nothimg to do with leagues any way. It is a tournament participated in by countries/unions. How each union selects the teams that compete is up to them not up to the Premiership clubs.

Unless the Premiership gives in its position, which doesn't sound likely, then the European cup is over and the Premiership sides will have killed it off for their own greed and power demands. The reported alternatives are poor at best. I don't see a World club thing working as the SH doesn't have the available dates and logistically it would be too much.

They will be left with an expanded Premiership and that is about it. Shame.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9970583/Heineken-Cup-talks-in-deadlock-as-top-English-clubs-consider-alternative-competitions.html

It starting to get close to crunch time. These options could be to bring the other side to the table, although pretty sure there also is big pressure to expand the AP to 14 teams - which I would like.


I have said before that if the other Unions don't want the BT euro monies, then the AP should keep it and use in more imaginative ways. Not sure the PRL are professional enough with the right expertise to achieve that though.

It doesn't seam very biased there, will read the times one to get the other view.

Just to point out, I don't know why they say
"the top four Pro12 sides would qualify, with the final two qualifiers based on geography to ensure every country was represented in the tournament"

Because if the provinces finished 1st-4th that would leave only 2 places for 3 unions (FIR,SRU,WRU) therefore it does not "ensure every country was represented in the tournament"

Seams silly they still metion this as surly someone has pointed this flaw out to them.

Not going to go through all the old arguments, will just talk about what Pro 12 and Jeff teams should do if they cannot agree a new H-cup deal.

Jeff I think will try will an expanded Prem (and if new H-cup is agreed in say two years time have a season 3 teams go down, to go back to 12 teams), or they may promote the LV=Cup to a higher competation (maybe with Championship clubs), and try that.

Pro 12, not sure what will happen, Celtic cup brought back, (would the regions play in it or LV=Cup)?
Expansion? only IRFU would be in a position to be able to but 4 provinces is all we have got and can't do more. London Irish are struggling and losing players, could London Irish, and London Welsh be brought in? Seams a long shot.
Set up two USA teams and expand the league to the US, they do have some very good players and even a minority sport can attract major funding?

It's getting to the point where I think we just need to let them walk. I don't want us to be cutting off our nose to spite our face and a competition with all six unions participating is good for everyone, but they're really over-reaching themselves in trying to dictate to other unions how they decide to allocate their qualifying places! If we cave in now, whats to stop us caving in the next time they come to the negotiating table with a set of even more unrealistic and unfair demands?

Say the Anglo-Welsh competition comes about I would be quite happy to see a European competition consisting of;

POOL 1; Ulster Toulouse Edinburgh Biarritz
PPOL 2; Clermont Auvergne Glasgow Connacht Perpignan
POOL 3; Leinster Castres Treviso Racing Metro
POOL 4; Toulon Munster Montpellier Zebre

Ospreys, Harlequins, Saracens and Tigers would be missed for sure. But if we cut it down to 16 teams there isn't a massive drop-off in quality- certainly not as big a drop-off as the English are contemplating.

I hope they come to their senses all the same.

I'm glad the English and French clubs are sticking to their guns despite improved performances in the HC. Last year there was a lot of talk about this being mere sour grapes following the success of Celtic teams in the competition. This year we see 3 English and 3 French teams in the quarters and a strong possibility of an all English and French semi final line up. Clearly this is not just sour grapes and the clubs have genuine concerns over qualification criteria and remuneration. The PRL may not be the greatest run organisation, but their approach to this issue is quite right in my opinion.

I hope they do sort it and continue with European competitions not too dissimilar to those we have now, but there are issues which need to be ironed out. Losing the HC would be bad for everybody.

Notch,

The French clubs still have major issues with ERC. They are livid that they have no say in the running of the competition (FFR has the votes not the clubs) and this all came to a head when Lux was re-appointed as they wanted a change, but their Federation voted for the status quo.


Everyone is so busy worrying about their own interests that we will end up with a major hooha.

Kingshu wrote:It doesn't seam very biased there, will read the times one to get the other view.

It is not a specific report by the Times/ST that is the issue I am afraid. Just every time they write about this subject they eulogise about Sky, how good they are etc, etc. Never a mention that they are all the same company.

It means I view every article they write as NewsCorp PR.

jeffwinger wrote:I'm glad the English and French clubs are sticking to their guns despite improved performances in the HC. Last year there was a lot of talk about this being mere sour grapes following the success of Celtic teams in the competition. This year we see 3 English and 3 French teams in the quarters and a strong possibility of an all English and French semi final line up. Clearly this is not just sour grapes and the clubs have genuine concerns over qualification criteria and remuneration. The PRL may not be the greatest run organisation, but their approach to this issue is quite right in my opinion.

I hope they do sort it and continue with European competitions not too dissimilar to those we have now, but there are issues which need to be ironed out. Losing the HC would be bad for everybody.

Pretty sure that it's always been about the moulah predominantly

LondonTiger wrote:Notch,

The French clubs still have major issues with ERC. They are livid that they have no say in the running of the competition (FFR has the votes not the clubs) and this all came to a head when Lux was re-appointed as they wanted a change, but their Federation voted for the status quo.


Everyone is so busy worrying about their own interests that we will end up with a major hooha.

Isn't Lux Blanco's man tho, LT, and by that token behind the FFR position?

LondonTiger wrote:

Kingshu wrote:It doesn't seam very biased there, will read the times one to get the other view.

It is not a specific report by the Times/ST that is the issue I am afraid. Just every time they write about this subject they eulogise about Sky, how good they are etc, etc. Never a mention that they are all the same company.

It means I view every article they write as NewsCorp PR.

I ment to type "It does seam very biased there" added an extra n't which changed the meaning. I don't think you get any papers that report facts without opinion anymore, they target a reader base and right what they want to read. I.e above is very biased to jeff clubs point of view, majority of readers would be Jeff clubs fans. Irish papers wouldn't have the same viewpoint, and would be equally biased in the other viewpoint

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Plan A
A world club championship, held every two years, could run over two or three weekends, bringing together the champions of leagues from both hemispheres including Super Rugby clubs. Talks have already been held with SANZAR clubs, and the likes of Natal Sharks would be a huge draw in England.

Plan B
A Premiership expanded from 12 to 14 clubs would give each club two more guaranteed home games – they presently host three in the European competition – and four extra rounds. An enhanced Anglo-Welsh tournament would also help fill the nine European weekends.

Plan C
Allowing the release of their players for a fourth England Test match outside of the International Rugby Board window every autumn – currently they are released only once every two years – could net the Premiership clubs an extra £3million per game. Their present annual share of ERC revenue is £8.5million.[/i]

Plan A is unworkable much and all as people may want it.

Plan C would probably help financially in conjunction with some of Plan B.

14 club premiership would allow the French and English seasons to synchronise and possibly tie in with bringing in a few Welsh regions. Which would leave the Celtic unions in a bit of a hole.

Hopefully they can sort it all out over the summer. Otherwise European Rugby will be poorer for all nations.

Blanco and LNR wanted the opponent in, Lux was their man once I think, but had "betrayed" them. Or that was how I read it in L'Equipe last summer (my French is a tad iffy though).

LNR are effectively fighting with FFR (sounds like PRL and RFU a few years back). RFU made a pigs ear of English clubs playing in the HEC. by missing the start our clubs had no votes in ERC - this was only corrected after the 1998/99 boycott and after that the clubs effectively had control of their own destinies. LNR are looking for a similar outcome (oh and more moolah as well)

Personally i would like a european competition where europe is represented.

Clearly this is not what the powers that be want in France and England with both organisations pushing for an elite competition.

i would be interested to hear what the average punter would prefer?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Plan A
A world club championship, held every two years, could run over two or three weekends, bringing together the champions of leagues from both hemispheres including Super Rugby clubs. Talks have already been held with SANZAR clubs, and the likes of Natal Sharks would be a huge draw in England.

Plan B
A Premiership expanded from 12 to 14 clubs would give each club two more guaranteed home games – they presently host three in the European competition – and four extra rounds. An enhanced Anglo-Welsh tournament would also help fill the nine European weekends.

Plan C
Allowing the release of their players for a fourth England Test match outside of the International Rugby Board window every autumn – currently they are released only once every two years – could net the Premiership clubs an extra £3million per game. Their present annual share of ERC revenue is £8.5million.[/i]

Plan A is unworkable much and all as people may want it.

Plan C would probably help financially in conjunction with some of Plan B.

14 club premiership would allow the French and English seasons to synchronise and possibly tie in with bringing in a few Welsh regions. Which would leave the Celtic unions in a bit of a hole.

Hopefully they can sort it all out over the summer. Otherwise European Rugby will be poorer for all nations.

Variations of Plan A have been mooted for years, and have always fallen down once discussions start re. scheduling. Unless a global season happens it won't fly. And when the article talks about "talks with Sanzar Clubs" they presumably mean South African sides - the NZ and Aus teams are still controlled by the parent unions.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:i would be interested to hear what the average punter would prefer?

Been over specifics many times before but my personal views, generally speaking:

1. Reduced HC numbers, ideally to 16 with a 4,4,2,2,1,1 country split + winners of HC and ACC.

2. Improved Amlim, with similar qualification and same tournament structure as HC, including top teams from developing countries, and taken more seriously by Celtic nations - achievable as it will be a viable route into the more limited HC.

3. Possible third tier development comp - specifics undecided.

4. Slightly more even financial split. Perhaps the equal 3 way split is a bit too far since the Rabo caters for 4 unions, but maybe something like 40:30:30?

In an ideal world we'd see the quality improve in Italy and perhaps other countries too and increased participation and interest as a result. However that isn't going to happen for a while so I think the above outline would be the best option with what we currently have available.

The English clubs, along with their French counterparts, are demanding reform of the Heineken Cup, including a reduction of the number of clubs from 24 to 20, a strengthening of the Amlin Challenge Cup and the introduction of a third tier competition.

This is in the article. This is something I completely agree with.

8 Pro12 teams - top Italian team,top Scottish team,top Welsh,top Irish then next 4 in the table.

6 AP

6 Top 14.

beshocked wrote:The English clubs, along with their French counterparts, are demanding reform of the Heineken Cup, including a reduction of the number of clubs from 24 to 20, a strengthening of the Amlin Challenge Cup and the introduction of a third tier competition.

This is in the article. This is something I completely agree with.

8 Pro12 teams - top Italian team,top Scottish team,top Welsh,top Irish then next 4 in the table.

6 AP

6 Top 14.

+1

Always though that this was the most fair compromise. To expect the Rabo sides to drop 4 places from their allocation is a no go as far as I can see.

doctornickolas wrote:

beshocked wrote:The English clubs, along with their French counterparts, are demanding reform of the Heineken Cup, including a reduction of the number of clubs from 24 to 20, a strengthening of the Amlin Challenge Cup and the introduction of a third tier competition.

This is in the article. This is something I completely agree with.

8 Pro12 teams - top Italian team,top Scottish team,top Welsh,top Irish then next 4 in the table.

6 AP

6 Top 14.

+1

Always though that this was the most fair compromise. To expect the Rabo sides to drop 4 places from their allocation is a no go as far as I can see.

Hopefully they can compromise on something like this. Currently 4 Unions want the status quo. English want the Previous Amlin and HC winners instead of the 2 extra Celtic nations, and god knows what the French want. I suspect they don't even know themselves.

This is something I'm coming round to as well, and it'll make the Rabo more interesting come the end of the season.

Very important though to guarantee one representative from each participating country. You don't want to lose the broad European appeal of the tournament.

Edinburgh better start rolling their socks up....

Also happy with that 20 team comp, but feel it is really important to get the previous winners of the Amlin involved as otherwise there is absolutely no incentive for teams to compete in it. It would become significantly less competitive than it is now with clubs possibly trying to not qualify for later rounds.

jeffwinger wrote:Also happy with that 20 team comp, but feel it is really important to get the previous winners of the Amlin involved as otherwise there is absolutely no incentive for teams to compete in it. It would become significantly less competitive than it is now with clubs possibly trying to not qualify for later rounds.

Hmmm.

Possibly a fudge? It is very unlikely that the HC winners will not qualify. Could there be some way round taking the Amlin winners ahead of a team in their League?

Simple with a French or English team. Just drop their 6th place. With the Celtic nations it is slightly more complex but doable.

The second tier competition could be very interesting if the teams could be convinced to take it seriously. Its nice having a competition that is genuinely open - as all the 'usual suspects' should be in the HC

Indeed. There are a number of strong competitors in this years quarter final line up, and looking at the teams announced, most seem to be taking it fairly seriously. This is great, and should be encouraged. Don't know why some teams and fans are so dismissive of the Amlim, it has proven a good breeding ground for many a star player and team down the years.

jeffwinger wrote:Indeed. There are a number of strong competitors in this years quarter final line up, and looking at the teams announced, most seem to be taking it fairly seriously. This is great, and should be encouraged. Don't know why some teams and fans are so dismissive of the Amlim, it has proven a good breeding ground for many a star player and team down the years.

It's a joke when 3 teams drop down from the HC and have a decent chance of winning. Basically the teams who fail in the HC gets an opportunity to rack up the ranking points.

Is it fair on Wasps for example having to face Leinster? Of course not.

An Amlin winner get more ranking points than a HC quarter finalist.

It's why there have been pretty farcical HC rankings recently for Cardiff and Biarritz.

If there was a meaningful reorganization of the Amlin there should be a case for either not having the HC rejects or for them to join at an earlier stage.

If we had the right number of groups (4 or 8) it would not be an issue. that 2 runners up get rewarded with a 1/4 final place is crazy.

No HC rejects for me. New competitions should just have top qualifiers from the pools in that competition. If you lose out you lose out. If its 20 teams then I'd imagine 5 pools of 4 with 5+3 qualifiers. A 16 team competition would consist of 4 pools and top 2 from each pool. As I stated in my breakdown above, tournament structure should be the same in 2nd tier comp as in the main one.

beshocked wrote:

jeffwinger wrote:Indeed. There are a number of strong competitors in this years quarter final line up, and looking at the teams announced, most seem to be taking it fairly seriously. This is great, and should be encouraged. Don't know why some teams and fans are so dismissive of the Amlim, it has proven a good breeding ground for many a star player and team down the years.

It's a joke when 3 teams drop down from the HC and have a decent chance of winning. Basically the teams who fail in the HC gets an opportunity to rack up the ranking points.

Not saying I agree or disagree, but that paragraph could have benefited from an "in my opinion" or 2.

beshocked wrote:

Is it fair on Wasps for example having to face Leinster? Of course not.

Be great for Wasps if they beat them though.

beshocked wrote:
An Amlin winner get more ranking points than a HC quarter finalist.

They do have to fight their way through 3 knockout games for it though. the first of which is away to an Amlin group winner..

beshocked wrote:
It's why there have been pretty farcical HC rankings recently for Cardiff and Biarritz.

Ah your old hobby horse again.

Cardiff are gone this year, but Biarritz could possibly stay top seeds. I don't want to be around you if they do and Sarries are still tier 3. I can feel the steam coming out of your ears already.

Jenifer you do make good points but surely you must see my point of view too.

Yes my opinion perhaps should have been added. Beating Leinster would be great for Wasps but going by their recent form it's unlikely.

Yes it's 3 knockout games but it's still a lesser competition compared to the HC.

Come on. You agree with me about the rankings surely?

If Sarries are tier 3 and get drawn with sides weaker than us surely that's good no? Only becomes a problem when drawn with either Clermont or Leinster

I don't have a problem with the HEC runners up dropping down into the Amlin - it improves the quality of the knockout stages and has made for some memorable matches - which could be even better if the Amlin were properly promoted and marketed.

Entry into the HEC for the Amlin winner and ranking points for performance in the Amlin both seem fair to me. If anything, a win in the Amlin could be worth more in terms of ranking points. The distortion in the ranking comes from the fact that 10 of the Rabo teams are guaranteed qualification and therefore ranking points, which increases their chance of being seeded, which increases their chance of a good draw, which increases their chance of qualifying for the QFs, which increases their ranking points... Can't really fix that without a more meritocratic qualification system.

The basic problem with the HEC discussions, though, is that the parties are arguing from entirely different platforms. The AP and Top 14 clubs - who are independent businesses not controlled (or even meaningfully subsidised) by their unions - are looking for a fairer distribution of money and entries at a club level.

The WRU, IRFU, SRU and FIR, who have a substantial degree of control over their regions/provinces/clubs, are trying to preserve the status quo, which distributes the money and entries at a union level and is, at least arguably, fair if viewed at that level. But at the union level only.

Nothing is going to get agreed until at least one side acknowledges that the other's position is legitimate, but there's been little evidence that either side is negotiating at the moment.

All the talk of "it's all about unions and clubs have nothing to do with it and the RFU could restructure into 6 clubs and then they'd all qualify and the club owners are being greedy" is at best wishful thinking and at worst WUMming.

The structure of the game is different in England and France from the Celtic nations and there are genuine reasons for that. For one thing, they are bigger countries with bigger populations and a bigger fan base. They can support a larger number of clubs - and need to in order to have a viable league. The club owners are interested in making enough money to keep their teams afloat - and are understandably frustrated that in the most demanding competition they receive less money and have a harder time getting a good seeding than some of the other teams they face.

The Celtic unions need the income from the HEC to keep the professional game afloat in their countries and are understandably reluctant to give any of that up. They've restructured to form a viable league when their individual markets can't support enough teams alone, and as a happy by product take advantage of the fact that the qualification system gives them pretty much guaranteed places and a cut of the money that they can share among fewer teams.

Both sides of the argument have some merit but something has to give if we want a European competition to continue. Sadly, that doesn't look much like happening.

Poorfour we'll have to agree to disagree about the drop down then. I think that if more Pro12 sides were in the Amlin the drop down wouldn't be needed.

More Pro12 sides in the Amlin would give them a higher chance of progressing, plus it would make the Amlin less Anglo-French centric.

As it stands in the Amlin only 5 sides qualify for the quarter finals. That's just silly.

It's important that Italy,Wales,Scotland and Ireland have at least one representative in the HC but in my opinion it's not necessary to have all Italians or Scottish ones for example.

beshocked wrote:Poorfour we'll have to agree to disagree about the drop down then. I think that if more Pro12 sides were in the Amlin the drop down wouldn't be needed.

More Pro12 sides in the Amlin would give them a higher chance of progressing, plus it would make the Amlin less Anglo-French centric.

As it stands in the Amlin only 5 sides qualify for the quarter finals. That's just silly.

It's important that Italy,Wales,Scotland and Ireland have at least one representative in the HC but in my opinion it's not necessary to have all Italians or Scottish ones for example.

I would agree with that. If the Amlin were also guaranteed to include sides from each union and the profile/marketing were improved, there would be much less of a case for teams dropping down - and much more of an incentive for teams to do well in the group stages. But having followed Quins to Thomond Park and to play Stade Francais in Cardiff for their 2011 win, the trophy meant a lot more knowing the quality of sides we'd beaten to get it.

To get rid of the drop down you then need to ensure that winners and runners up all go through in the HC - which means 4 groups of 5 (more games - bad?) or 4 groups of 4 (the 'other' option but only 16 teams in the HC)

What else? something crazy like 8 groups of 3 winner only goes through?

lostinwales wrote:To get rid of the drop down you then need to ensure that winners and runners up all go through in the HC - which means 4 groups of 5 (more games - bad?) or 4 groups of 4 (the 'other' option but only 16 teams in the HC)

What else? something crazy like 8 groups of 3 winner only goes through?

Not necessarily - until a couple of years ago it was "pool winners and best 2 runners up" - the drop-down is a recent added bonus!

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:To get rid of the drop down you then need to ensure that winners and runners up all go through in the HC - which means 4 groups of 5 (more games - bad?) or 4 groups of 4 (the 'other' option but only 16 teams in the HC)

What else? something crazy like 8 groups of 3 winner only goes through?

Not necessarily - until a couple of years ago it was "pool winners and best 2 runners up" - the drop-down is a recent added bonus!

Drop down started in 2010 when Cardiff beat Toulon.

Before that it was the 5 pool winners and..... Well it had to be the best 3 runners up. If it was 2 then you would only have 7 teams.

beshocked wrote:Jenifer you do make good points but surely you must see my point of view too.

I do.

beshocked wrote:
Yes my opinion perhaps should have been added. Beating Leinster would be great for Wasps but going by their recent form it's unlikely.

From your lips to god's ears. I'm not that confident. Glad Haskell is out though.

beshocked wrote:
Yes it's 3 knockout games but it's still a lesser competition compared to the HC.

Absolutely that's why you only get 6 points for winning it not 11. A win is ranked in between a HC quarter and a HC semi which I reckon is about right.

beshocked wrote:
Come on. You agree with me about the rankings surely?

I agree they could be fairer. My idea would be to give the current points for the last 2 seasons. and then scale back. Something like 75% for year 3. 50% for year 4. and 25% for year 5.

beshocked wrote:
If Sarries are tier 3 and get drawn with sides weaker than us surely that's good no? Only becomes a problem when drawn with either Clermont or Leinster

If Sarries are tier 3 they can get drawn with teams from 1 and 2. Like they got Leinster and Clermont a couple of seasons ago. If they are in tier 2 they are more likely to get worse teams in their group.

They can't make 1 this year unless they win the HC as the winner is guaranteed tier 1.

If they are tier 3 it is bad for the teams in other tiers as they will get a tough 3rd seed who (like this year) could win the group.

The "Anglo/French centric" Amlin seems to be a burden for some to carry even though many of the pronouncements on the bigger party (HEC) seems to always suggest that the French and English wouldn't mind having the Lion's share of that one to themselves............. nobody seems to be suggesting that one should be even more inclusive; rather that it should become more restrictive - like kicking the Italians and Scots out

So forgive me if I constantly see a slight sneer directed at Amlin and the "Let's make it more meaningful by letting the Pro12 have most of it, bless 'em". Funny how a little more selfish saliva always drips from greedy mouths when HEC gets a mention.

Everyone wants the top..Everyone. The top ain't Amlin. The top won't be Amlin. Amlin is the lesser crown. Amlin ain't the crown at all, HEC is.

Any other talk is just repeated garbage. An earlier remark about "Italy,Wales,Scotland and Ireland [should] have at least one representative in the HC" is quite simply offensive. It mightn't have been intended to be so, it mightn't have been preceived to be so. But that's what it is. And the more it and other similar lines are thrown into the ring casually with a yawn, the less inclined I get to acknowledge them as genuine legitmate opinions. And if similar language floats around the admin meetings at ERC PRL level then I'm not surprised nothing is moving.

I keep repeating, Ireland has brought more to European competition than a bloody "at least one" HC spot. When England and France expect to stay at six 'representatives' apiece that becomes a downright insult. Irish Provinces worked hard to become forces in Europe... worked hard and then reaped the rewards of hard effort. And as we did so, we helped make the European event precisely what it's become - something money men are now fighting over with a passion...and many of them don't probably even know its history as they accountant-goosestep and preppy-business-acumenise all across it.

No, we won't fall quietly back into any PRL prepared Amlin abyss to please our equals in Europe - the French and English.

There is a lot of lazy chit chat that goes on around this subject, a very gauche approach to a very sensitive issue.

6 countries - each should get one guaranteed place at the top table.

The other 10 spots in a 16 team elite competition should be based on European performances.

Of course I am reasonably happy with English and French TV deals subsidising other countries - as together we grow strong. Sadly too many people and bureaucrats on ALL sides just seems to want what is best for their own little cabal. To make themselves feel better they then insult anyone with an opposing view.

SecretFly wrote:The "Anglo/French centric" Amlin seems to be a burden for some to carry even though many of the pronouncements on the bigger party (HEC) seems to always suggest that the French and English wouldn't mind having the Lion's share of that one to themselves............. nobody seems to be suggesting that one should be even more inclusive; rather that it should become more restrictive - like kicking the Italians and Scots out

So forgive me if I constantly see a slight sneer directed at Amlin and the "Let's make it more meaningful by letting the Pro12 have most of it, bless 'em". Funny how a little more selfish saliva always drips from greedy mouths when HEC gets a mention.

Everyone wants the top..Everyone. The top ain't Amlin. The top won't be Amlin. Amlin is the lesser crown. Amlin ain't the crown at all, HEC is.

Any other talk is just repeated garbage. An earlier remark about "Italy,Wales,Scotland and Ireland [should] have at least one representative in the HC" is quite simply offensive. It mightn't have been intended to be so, it mightn't have been preceived to be so. But that's what it is. And the more it and other similar lines are thrown into the ring casually with a yawn, the less inclined I get to acknowledge them as genuine legitmate opinions. And if similar language floats around the admin meetings at ERC PRL level then I'm not surprised nothing is moving.

I keep repeating, Ireland has brought more to European competition than a bloody "at least one" HC spot. When England and France expect to stay at six 'representatives' apiece that becomes a downright insult. Irish Provinces worked hard to become forces in Europe... worked hard and then reaped the rewards of hard effort. And as we did so, we helped make the European event precisely what it's become - something money men are now fighting over with a passion...and many of them don't probably even know its history as they accountant-goosestep and preppy-business-acumenise all across it.

No, we won't fall quietly back into any PRL prepared Amlin abyss to please our equals in Europe - the French and English.

There is a lot of lazy chit chat that goes on around this subject, a very gauche approach to a very sensitive issue.

Secretfly my perspective is that the Pro12 sides are being a bit greedy - expecting HC rugby handed to them on a platter when collectively they haven't delivered.

As it stands pretty much every Pro12 side auto qualifies for the HC. That's not right in my opinion. This season Ireland had 100% of their clubs in the HC, Wales 75% of their clubs, Italy and Scotland both 100% - 11 Pro12 sides in the HC yet only 2 in the quarter finals. Both from Ireland. This season France and England had only 50% of their clubs.

I agree HC is the top crown so why do you think it's fair that sides who haven't really proven their worth get automatic qualification every year?

Going by my hardly draconian suggestion which was top Welsh,Italian,Scottish and Irish qualify with next 4 in the table qualifying - next season's HC would have 8 Pro12 representatives - 3 from Ireland,3 from Wales, 1 from Italy and 1 from Scotland. It would have the sides who deserve to be in the competition. 6 AP and 6 Top 14.

If you are good enough you'll qualify by merit to be in the HC. I don't know why you feel you should be exempt from qualification. That sounds pretty arrogant to me.

My suggestion would actually help Ireland by giving their 4th region an opportunity to qualify on merit.

Sadly too many people and bureaucrats on ALL sides just seems to want what is best for their own little cabal. To make themselves feel better they then insult anyone with an opposing view.

LT this is the best summary of the situation I have seen. All sides looking after themselves and spitting bile at anyone who disagrees.

I keep repeating, Ireland has brought more to European competition than a bloody "at least one" HC spot.

There in is the crux of the problem SF. The Rabo wish to be judged as individual nations, the Anglo-French wish things to be proportioned by leagues.

The English clubs seem to need more money, so they are trying to get a bigger slice of the European pie by increasing their percentage take from 25% to 30%. At the same time they can maybe up the Amlin value by having better quality and more diversified opponents. The PRL don't seem to care that their gain is entirely at the expense of the Pro12, and offers no opportunity for the Rabo Unions to negotiate (only a threat) - therein lies the rub.

A global club competition is pie in the sky and the other Telegraph options advocate fleecing English fans a bit more. Will the corporates really spend as much to see Newcastle or Bristol in an extended AP as Ospreys or Leinster in the HEC? When the English and French clubs were unable to improve their position before the Rabo existed how do they think they can now it's getting stronger every year?

The Pro12 Unions have no carrot to accept any change, so why would they succumb to a rather thin and limp looking stick?

beshocked wrote: Going by my hardly draconian suggestion which was top Welsh,Italian,Scottish and Irish qualify with next 4 in the table qualifying - next season's HC would have 8 Pro12 representatives - 3 from Ireland,3 from Wales, 1 from Italy and 1 from Scotland. It would have the sides who deserve to be in the competition. 6 AP and 6 Top 14.

If you are good enough you'll qualify by merit to be in the HC. I don't know why you feel you should be exempt from qualification. That sounds pretty arrogant to me.

My suggestion would actually help Ireland by giving their 4th region an opportunity to qualify on merit.

You need to have a word with the English negotiators - it is they who are not prepared to accept your suggestion not the Celtic nations.

The English are insisting on 6 from each of the 3 leagues.

geoff999rugby wrote:

beshocked wrote: Going by my hardly draconian suggestion which was top Welsh,Italian,Scottish and Irish qualify with next 4 in the table qualifying - next season's HC would have 8 Pro12 representatives - 3 from Ireland,3 from Wales, 1 from Italy and 1 from Scotland. It would have the sides who deserve to be in the competition. 6 AP and 6 Top 14.

If you are good enough you'll qualify by merit to be in the HC. I don't know why you feel you should be exempt from qualification. That sounds pretty arrogant to me.

My suggestion would actually help Ireland by giving their 4th region an opportunity to qualify on merit.

You need to have a word with the English negotiators - it is they who are not prepared to accept your suggestion not the Celtic nations.

The English are insisting on 6 from each of the 3 leagues.

I think eventually they'll come to this compromise. Shame it's having to take so much wrangling. 6 in each league is something the Celtic nations will not concede to but the suggestion of 8,6,6 perhaps.

If 8,6,6 was put forward as being acceptable to the English tomorrow the whole thing would be done and dusted.

Each nation would have to decide how or if, they accommodate the HC and Amlin winners