Nothing can self destruct like Welsh rugby...

Why do we always do this....

We pull out a fantastic 6 Nations win only to yet again press the self destruct button.

Am I the only one to see that both parties are acting like spoilt brats and need to grow up and pull in the same direction if Welsh rugby is not boing to disappear for ever.

1. We have to remember WHY the regions where set up in the first place. They were not established as play things for men with big cheque books and even bigger egos. They where established to help grow the success of the Welsh National Team.

2. The only way is for central contracts for our international players. If the regions won't play these players then they should lose the WRU banner. I believe if they are not affiliated to the WRU then they cannot compete in the Pro12 or the HC.

3. if the WRU pay for finally contracted players, then they should say which Region they plays for and when they are available or not.

4. The Welsh side should pick first from the Welsh based players as Gatland has said in the past. Exceptions should only be as a last resort.

5. The WRU can't have it all ways, as my points above may suggest, they must recognise that the Regions have to make money to survive an should be funded appropriately. Not forgetting if the 'stars' have central contracts then they save on the wage bills.


I've been listening to the news over this week and all I have heard is whinging yet nothing constructive.

One final thing is I wish Moffat would shut his f****king mouth and mind his businesses. His half hearted implementation put us in this mess to start with.

Presiding judge Sir Wyn Williams has been appointed chairman of Welsh rugby's newly-formed Professional Regional Game Board (PRGB).

The board has been established following an independent review of the professional game in Wales.

It will comprise representatives from the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) and Wales' four professional regions - Cardiff Blues, the Scarlets, Ospreys and Newport Gwent Dragons.

The board's first meeting is due to take place later this month.

WRU group chief executive Roger Lewis said: "We are delighted to announce the appointment of someone of Sir Wyn's calibre as the inaugural chair of the PRGB.

"His status as a High Court judge ensures he takes on this post with a formidable reputation for objectivity, fairness and an undoubted ability to find intelligent solutions to complex problems."

The appointment was welcomed by Scarlets chief executive Mark Davies, speaking on behalf of the four regions.

"The scale, scope and role of the new PRGB, and the clear aims that we have set out, mean that we need a very considerable individual indeed to be able to share the responsibility and lead the discussions that result in us collectively achieving our objectives for a healthy and sustainable future for Welsh rugby," he said.

"Sir Wyn's knowledge and passion for Welsh rugby, together with the scale and degree of judgement he employs daily at a very profound level, means it is a role clearly well within his capability and experience."


Whatever happened to Sir Wyn & his 'undoubted talent to find intelligent solutions to complex problems' ?

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/matchdaytv/?play=media&id=14932

this is the video of the press conference. from 11mins onwards is an answer & questions bit. pretty interesting listening.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Presiding judge Sir Wyn Williams has been appointed chairman of Welsh rugby's newly-formed Professional Regional Game Board (PRGB).

The board has been established following an independent review of the professional game in Wales.

It will comprise representatives from the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) and Wales' four professional regions - Cardiff Blues, the Scarlets, Ospreys and Newport Gwent Dragons.

The board's first meeting is due to take place later this month.

WRU group chief executive Roger Lewis said: "We are delighted to announce the appointment of someone of Sir Wyn's calibre as the inaugural chair of the PRGB.

"His status as a High Court judge ensures he takes on this post with a formidable reputation for objectivity, fairness and an undoubted ability to find intelligent solutions to complex problems."

The appointment was welcomed by Scarlets chief executive Mark Davies, speaking on behalf of the four regions.

"The scale, scope and role of the new PRGB, and the clear aims that we have set out, mean that we need a very considerable individual indeed to be able to share the responsibility and lead the discussions that result in us collectively achieving our objectives for a healthy and sustainable future for Welsh rugby," he said.

"Sir Wyn's knowledge and passion for Welsh rugby, together with the scale and degree of judgement he employs daily at a very profound level, means it is a role clearly well within his capability and experience."


Whatever happened to Sir Wyn & his 'undoubted talent to find intelligent solutions to complex problems' ?

It seems Roger has changed his mind and does not want any neutral interference after all, the guy is a power hungry dictator with his own oblectives and needs to be removed from the WRU chair ASAP

"Whatever happened to Sir Wyn & his 'undoubted talent to find intelligent solutions to complex problems' ?"

The problem is not complex at all. Neither will the solution be. It is organising the debate of both sides and allowing a situation where either can concede without feeling any negative arbitration.

I wouldn't be upset to see Lewis relinquish his duties. I think he has done what he was hired for.

But he may well have recently put himself in an un-answerable compromise.

New leadership might refresh these negotiations.

Unfortunately I am not sure that Barclays Bank would allow a change of leadership in such spontaneous fashion.

How strong are the grass roots?

Way back when I used to particpate in easter tours of South Wales, local rugby was the bedrock of the game and the Welsh team was very much an add-on.

Don't get me wrong Wales was important, it just seemed the local stuff was more important. Boys and men wanted to play for the village team, then they may progress to the local town team etc. The main focus always seemed to be the local thing with a natural drift up to national. Rugby seemed to be at the heart of many communities - and lets face it during the 80s the government in London seemed to be doing it's damn hardest to destroy that community.

It just feels - again from the outside I admit - that a lot of this has been lost, and with it the very soul of Welsh rugby and what was so good. This saddens me.

Is it worth having the best side in the 6Ns if everything else has been lost?

LondonTiger wrote:Is it worth having the best side in the 6Ns if everything else has been lost?

No. It’s all well and good that the WRU are making money. But those casual fans that inflate ticket prices at internationals will soon drift off if Wales start losing and the WRU will be left with a disgruntled grass roots base and 4 (maybe 3 regions by this time) that don't want to interact with them. Lewis needs to realise he is doing just as much damage to Welsh rugby as he has done financial good for the union.

LondonTiger wrote:How strong are the grass roots?

Way back when I used to particpate in easter tours of South Wales, local rugby was the bedrock of the game and the Welsh team was very much an add-on.

Don't get me wrong Wales was important, it just seemed the local stuff was more important. Boys and men wanted to play for the village team, then they may progress to the local town team etc. The main focus always seemed to be the local thing with a natural drift up to national. Rugby seemed to be at the heart of many communities - and lets face it during the 80s the government in London seemed to be doing it's damn hardest to destroy that community.

It just feels - again from the outside I admit - that a lot of this has been lost, and with it the very soul of Welsh rugby and what was so good. This saddens me.

Is it worth having the best side in the 6Ns if everything else has been lost?

Interesting post LT and a very good one. I also hope it was an honest one.

Grass roots is usually fairly strong, however it has fluctuated over the years and continues to do so. The amateur game in Wales is run as you say it is and that has remained the strongest part of the grass roots game in Wales. However I think we are missing a trick by not concentrating more on schools rugby and I believe that is the best place to breed pro rugby players. It's certainly working for other nations like Ireland and England.

If everything is lost then you, like I, know the national game will then cease to exist. If you remember the state the regions were in at the start of this season, which was very bad. I believe it was this situation that caused Wales to have such a dire autumn campaign. If the issues here aren't resolved now then I imagine this will continue to knock the national team and become a cycle .

Im with the OP. The regions aren't businesses. They are here to feed the national team.

maestegmafia wrote:"Whatever happened to Sir Wyn & his 'undoubted talent to find intelligent solutions to complex problems' ?"

The problem is not complex at all. Neither will the solution be. It is organising the debate of both sides and allowing a situation where either can concede without feeling any negative arbitration.

Wasn't that what the PRGB was set up for? It wasn't even given a chance.

Lee Byrne also suggest central contracts.

Lee Byrne's view

Welsh international full-back Lee Byrne, who left the Ospreys to join Clermont Auvergne, does not agree with Peter Thomas:

"If you're playing well and playing in a top team I don't see how you can be ignored really," he said.

"If coaches or people want to bring that in then you've got to weigh it up and I suppose your age and things like that put it in perspective.

"Central contracts would be ideal, I think that would be a big incentive to stop players going abroad.

"You look at the Irish players and they've managed to keep hold of the likes of Brian O'Driscoll and Rob Kearney, and I'm sure they've had big offers. I think that would be the way forward."

mikey_philVIII wrote:Lee Byrne also suggest central contracts.

Lee Byrne's view

Welsh international full-back Lee Byrne, who left the Ospreys to join Clermont Auvergne, does not agree with Peter Thomas:

"If you're playing well and playing in a top team I don't see how you can be ignored really," he said.

"If coaches or people want to bring that in then you've got to weigh it up and I suppose your age and things like that put it in perspective.

"Central contracts would be ideal, I think that would be a big incentive to stop players going abroad.

"You look at the Irish players and they've managed to keep hold of the likes of Brian O'Driscoll and Rob Kearney, and I'm sure they've had big offers. I think that would be the way forward."

"if you're playing well and playing in a top team I don't see how you can be ignored" So the rel question for Byrne is why hasn't he dven made the bench since the world cup.

Lee Byrne fails to mention the tax break, which is a key reason why central contracts work in Ireland but won't work here. The WRU can't win a bidding war with the French any more than the regions can unless they start touting for a fifth and sixth autumn international so they should stop pretending they can.

sirBiggles wrote:Why do we always do this....

We pull out a fantastic 6 Nations win only to yet again press the self destruct button.

Am I the only one to see that both parties are acting like spoilt brats and need to grow up and pull in the same direction if Welsh rugby is not boing to disappear for ever.

1. We have to remember WHY the regions where set up in the first place. They were not established as play things for men with big cheque books and even bigger egos. They where established to help grow the success of the Welsh National Team.

Cardiff Blues are and always have been Cardiff RFC like it or not and they had their AGM last week.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:"Whatever happened to Sir Wyn & his 'undoubted talent to find intelligent solutions to complex problems' ?"

The problem is not complex at all. Neither will the solution be. It is organising the debate of both sides and allowing a situation where either can concede without feeling any negative arbitration.

Wasn't that what the PRGB was set up for? It wasn't even given a chance.

Chance to do what. I think you are confused?

Ok as an outsider on this, I've just one question. Have the regions failed?

I maybe wrong but were they not created as there was no money to sustain them in wales? So the WRU created the regions to condense the pot, however it ended up with one folding, and the others struggling to find a receptacle to urine in.

As well as supporter number being nowhere near hoped as the creation alienated whole rafts of fans from the clubs merged, these were some of the greatest club names in world rugby, who had helped write some of our sports greatest folklore.

Created as rugby was broke, now a decade later it's in the same condition, money it seams is not the answer to the problem.

LondonTiger wrote:How strong are the grass roots?

Way back when I used to particpate in easter tours of South Wales, local rugby was the bedrock of the game and the Welsh team was very much an add-on.

Don't get me wrong Wales was important, it just seemed the local stuff was more important. Boys and men wanted to play for the village team, then they may progress to the local town team etc. The main focus always seemed to be the local thing with a natural drift up to national. Rugby seemed to be at the heart of many communities - and lets face it during the 80s the government in London seemed to be doing it's damn hardest to destroy that community.

It just feels - again from the outside I admit - that a lot of this has been lost, and with it the very soul of Welsh rugby and what was so good. This saddens me.

Is it worth having the best side in the 6Ns if everything else has been lost?

Grass roots to quite a big degree was damaged by the introduction of Regional rugby. Like you said years back kids wanted to play for their local side, for me it was Ebbw and I was lucky enough to get some youth games before joining up and doing my bit for Queen and Country. Whilst kids still have the option of playing for their Region that Region isn't exactly loclal to a lot of people and a lot depends on someone being spotted and coming through the academy etc.

On the flip side some of the old clubs have actually seen an increase in gate receipt through people choosing to go and support their local club rather than their Region due to all the fuss surrouding Regions and they way they approach communities that and poor marketing and scheduling of games (but thats another debate)

Knackeredknees wrote:Ok as an outsider on this, I've just one question. Have the regions failed?

I maybe wrong but were they not created as there was no money to sustain them in wales? So the WRU created the regions to condense the pot, however it ended up with one folding, and the others struggling to find a receptacle to urine in.

As well as supporter number being nowhere near hoped as the creation alienated whole rafts of fans from the clubs merged, these were some of the greatest club names in world rugby, who had helped write some of our sports greatest folklore.

Created as rugby was broke, now a decade later it's in the same condition, money it seams is not the answer to the problem.

KK,

As silly as this sounds yes and no, it was said from the off that the main idea of the Regions was to support and improve the National side so with 3 Slams and a Champioship in the bag since their inception then NO they haven't.

On the Regions themselves well that different, none have won the big main HC or come close really, there is constant debate about whether they are true Regions or super clubs and how much of thier respective Region they actually interact with, so from that point some say they have.

Would the slams still have been won anyway? As the players would have still been there playing for the clubs?

I just don't like the current thinking that throwing money at the problem will solve it all.

Knackeredknees wrote:Would the slams still have been won anyway? As the players would have still been there playing for the clubs?

I just don't like the current thinking that throwing money at the problem will solve it all.

A lot of the players have come through the respective Regional academies that weren't there before. Our player base was spread to thinly with players dotted through the then 12 'top tier' clubs, at least with the Regions (foreign exiles exepted) they are compacted and playing in the top competitions available to them.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:How strong are the grass roots?

Way back when I used to particpate in easter tours of South Wales, local rugby was the bedrock of the game and the Welsh team was very much an add-on.

Don't get me wrong Wales was important, it just seemed the local stuff was more important. Boys and men wanted to play for the village team, then they may progress to the local town team etc. The main focus always seemed to be the local thing with a natural drift up to national. Rugby seemed to be at the heart of many communities - and lets face it during the 80s the government in London seemed to be doing it's damn hardest to destroy that community.

It just feels - again from the outside I admit - that a lot of this has been lost, and with it the very soul of Welsh rugby and what was so good. This saddens me.

Is it worth having the best side in the 6Ns if everything else has been lost?

Grass roots to quite a big degree was damaged by the introduction of Regional rugby. Like you said years back kids wanted to play for their local side, for me it was Ebbw and I was lucky enough to get some youth games before joining up and doing my bit for Queen and Country. Whilst kids still have the option of playing for their Region that Region isn't exactly loclal to a lot of people and a lot depends on someone being spotted and coming through the academy etc.

On the flip side some of the old clubs have actually seen an increase in gate receipt through people choosing to go and support their local club rather than their Region due to all the fuss surrouding Regions and they way they approach communities that and poor marketing and scheduling of games (but thats another debate)

Local is a relative term here. Tell Biltong how 'far' Ebbw Vale is from the regional home ground of Rodney Parade and he'll put his head in his hands I'm sure! Discussing with him something similar a while back and he said that fans in his 'region' travel up to 5 hours and a few hundred miles to get to games, such is the size of the country. The notion of not being local is a phenomenon probably only seen in small countries, where we've perhaps become lazy due to the proximity of everything in our small nation. A soon as something becomes a bit further away it becomes 'too far', but in reality 20 miles is not far at all and is still classed as 'local'. It's a mentality that we need to overcome because we can't survive by basing everything on self contained village units (that's in both business and sport alike).

Griff,

I agree from that point of view but travelling the 20 miles from Ebbw to Dave is (relatively speaking ) not easy unless you have a car and can drive which most young kids don't - though loads in Ebbw know how to nick them lol (can say that as an Ebbw boy).

There is no direct train line and buses are very poor especially aftre 5 in the evening.

All the debate holding the regions back is really about is who has control of the regions, they are currently controled by benefactors but Roger Lewis wants full control of everything, whilst this power struggle continues the regions will continue to struggle and we could even see another region fold.
Team Wales has benefited from the money been pumped in by benefactors paying the wages of the top Welsh players staying in Wales while the check books were open, this has kept these players available for extra training sessions and Autumn fixtures followed by rest periods to avoid player burnout. All benefits to the international team that the other home nations teams dont benefit from.
The preperation and rest time that has benefited the National team is also what is hurting the regions, whilst the top players are released to Wales they are unable to play for their regions resulting in weakened teams having to be fielded in all competitions, it even affects the ERC campaign as squads have to prepare for round 3 without their Welsh stars
The men with the check books have decided it is not sustainable to keep paying wages to players they can not use, and who can blame them, this is now seen by the WRU as the opportunity they want to take over full control of the regions however they want to do this without paying for the priviledge.
The issue for me isn't about who actually controls the regions as I dont really care who the owner is as long as they have the regions best intrest at heart, the issue for me is can the WRU be trusted to do this as I personally believe they are only intrested in Cardiff, they certainly dont give a damn about the O's as they were happy to see the HMRC close them down and were busy offering their players to the other teams.
The Scarlets have towed the WRU party line more than any other region but over the George North saga the WRU did their best to try to make the Scarlets appear to be the villians for sticking to a wage structure and attempting to run a self sustaining buisness.
They have owned half of the Dragons for several years and just allowed the team to struggle along at the bottom of the league, imagine where they would be if the WRU owned all of the Dragons.
As for the Blues it seems with the offers of players and ground development that this is what Roger sees as the jewel in the crown of regional rugby with the club sitting right outside his office, unfortunately for him there is a genuine rugby fan standing in his way in Peter the pieman, well done Peter.
I fear for the current shape of the regional game though as Roger holds both the Purse strings and the Media through his BBC background.
The Regions hold diminishing fanbases and players contracts that are running out constantly.
I hope if the WRU do win this that Roger Lewis is long gone 1st.

But the regions haven't wiped out the clubs. They still exist. Kids can still aspire to play for their local side, and then if they wanted to make it as a pro then they can aspire to step up to represent the region.

I agree that transport networks do not make regional rugby as accessible as it could be, but I don't think it can be used to explain why people feel left out ('disenfranchised'!). There are no pro clubs in North Wales but quite a few North Walians have become pro rugby players, so having no pro team does not necessarily dent youngsters' ambitions. If the intro of regions meant that Ebbw Vale, Caerphilly, Pontypridd, etc. we're completely close down, then I can see a bigger problem, but local sides are still there so the aspiration and 'progression pathway' is still available to kids.

So, I guess I'm also agreeing with you that grassroots is still alive and well. It was there before the regions when we had a 12 team premiership, and it's still there now with regions. Like you say, even stronger in some cases.

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:"Whatever happened to Sir Wyn & his 'undoubted talent to find intelligent solutions to complex problems' ?"

The problem is not complex at all. Neither will the solution be. It is organising the debate of both sides and allowing a situation where either can concede without feeling any negative arbitration.

Wasn't that what the PRGB was set up for? It wasn't even given a chance.

Chance to do what. I think you are confused?

I don't think so....

'The PRGB is the result of a period of genuine, open and constructive dialogue, assisted by the initiative of the PwC review with the WRU and the four Regions committing to deliver on clear and agreed objectives over time, as the first step towards securing a healthy future for the professional game in Wales.'

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:Ok as an outsider on this, I've just one question. Have the regions failed?

I maybe wrong but were they not created as there was no money to sustain them in wales? So the WRU created the regions to condense the pot, however it ended up with one folding, and the others struggling to find a receptacle to urine in.

As well as supporter number being nowhere near hoped as the creation alienated whole rafts of fans from the clubs merged, these were some of the greatest club names in world rugby, who had helped write some of our sports greatest folklore.

Created as rugby was broke, now a decade later it's in the same condition, money it seams is not the answer to the problem.

KK,

As silly as this sounds yes and no, it was said from the off that the main idea of the Regions was to support and improve the National side so with 3 Slams and a Champioship in the bag since their inception then NO they haven't.

On the Regions themselves well that different, none have won the big main HC or come close really, there is constant debate about whether they are true Regions or super clubs and how much of thier respective Region they actually interact with, so from that point some say they have.

Andrew Hore of the Ospreys clearly believes that it is the WRU who are preventing the regions from forging better relationships with local clubs. What he specifically means i'm not sure and I wonder if the others have the same gripe. Anyway here's the BBC article where he has a dig;

"28 March 2013
Ospreys slate Welsh Rugby Union over club links

Ospreys boss Andrew Hore has accused the Welsh Rugby Union of not encouraging the region to forge better relationships with local clubs.

The Ospreys chief operations manager wants closer ties with their region's Premiership and community clubs.

"They [WRU] feel it is their domain and not one for regional rugby, which is European rugby and the Pro12," said Hore.

The WRU says it has a structure in place to develop the game in Wales.

But Hore wants his region to have a greater role in that structure, which he believes would allow them to develop players and attract bigger crowds to their games.

He claims to have been "told repeatedly" by the WRU that they should not be involved with "in the community game".

"To me, it's a sad state of affairs because fundamentally we should all be trying to promote the game," said Hore.

"We should be trying to get bums on seats because I am sick and tired of hearing that we should go running to the WRU for finance."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21957344

Didn't the WRU stop the Ospreys playing a game at the Brewery Field a while back, or am I imagining that?

bedfordwelsh wrote:Didn't the WRU stop the Ospreys playing a game at the Brewery Field a while back, or am I imagining that?

Yeah, against Tonga;

https://www.606v2.com/t42688p50-regional-rugby-wales-to-hold-4pm-press-conference
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20200617