Hunger to learn

It warms the cockles of my heart (though not quite sure what cockles are doing in my heart as I haven't eaten any in recent times) to see a young player put his head down and work even harder in the off season. Julian Savea scored 12 tries in 2012 in just 8 tests I think, which is an impressive strike rate. A young man living in a rugby fish bowl could well be tempted to hear the press and fan praise and think your s**t smelled sweeter than the rest. Natural talent in terms of size and strength as well and speed might be enough to think you have what it takes to compete at this level. While it's true his confidence has grown (on and off the field), he has acknowledged that he is not the finished article by any stretch.

The thing is when you have an impressive debut season, the spotlight is not on you. In that way, if you score tries it might well have been a little easier because the opposition defence weren't worried about you. They were too busy marking up higher profile players inside you and that might well have created more space for you. So to my immense satisfaction, reports have been made that Savea has worked even harder in the off season and is now reaping the rewards. There seems a hunger in him to constantly strive for improvement. He acknowledges the weaknesses in his game and seeks a way to minimise those whilst at the same time looks to build on his strengths.

This kid has still much to learn and is by no means a world class operator yet. But you can't dismiss his work ethic and for such a young man to know that you always have to strive to be better is the most pleasing thing for me. I think there are a few players not just on the wing who could learn a lot from the humble man. Nobody is bigger than the game or indeed the team and hard work does pay off. Good on you bro.

I'll leave you with his latest match. Watch the pick up for his second try: http://www.3news.co.nz/VIDEO-HIGHLIGHTS-Hurricanes-Vs-Waratahs-41-29-Super-Rugby-2013/tabid/317/articleID/293274/Default.aspx

What I like about him is that he isn't an out and out strike runner, he varies his pace with ball in hand, knows when to accelerate, knows when to step and is acutely aware of the match situation, he has very good hands and I can't praise him enough.

For me, he is going to be one of the all black greats, I know it is early in his career, but hell he is good.

I was also pleased in the November series that he not only scored tries but he set them up as well. He came off his wing to take the ball in the centre of the ground, go into the tackle and get the offload away to a player in space.

His hunger to learn, his hunger to do well for the team. That is more pleasing to me than his obvious natural strengths. His defence close to the line and his positioning still needs work but I can't get over how much I'm looking forward to seeing him in a black shirt. With 3 tests against France first up, his contribution will be greatly needed as France can't do any worse than what they did in the 6N.

He is an absolute monster.

In an impressive way.

Biltong wrote:What I like about him is that he isn't an out and out strike runner, he varies his pace with ball in hand, knows when to accelerate, knows when to step and is acutely aware of the match situation, he has very good hands and I can't praise him enough.

For me, he is going to be one of the all black greats, I know it is early in his career, but hell he is good.

I agree with nearly every word here except the all time great part, not that he doesn't have the potential but I think luck, injuries and form play a huge part in becoming a great.

I would say though, working hard in the off season can be very detrimental to players at times, youth and exhuberance is very commendable but when training too hard in the off season they sometimes need an older head to explain to them that the folleys of youth won't last forever.

Mental burnout sounds like a term over used at times, and it mostly used in the wrong instances, but small dips in form, small margins not going your way, and little bounces of the ball can all be attributed to mental fatigue because the rest period of the off season (which isn't that much anyway) isn't treated with enough respect by younger players.

I heard similar about a number of players, after their debut season they got obsessed with becoming the best, improving and focused on weaknesses, Henson and Ashton are 2 that jump to mind, but when form is that high like Savea's is, and players are that obsessed with becoming the best they can become a bit fragile especially if they see an extended period of bad luck or poor team performances.

I may be wrong and Savea may deal with the pressure and improvement immensely well, but he also needs an arm around the shoulder to explain to him to enjoy the blistering form, if and when it drops to relax and wait for it to return.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:What I like about him is that he isn't an out and out strike runner, he varies his pace with ball in hand, knows when to accelerate, knows when to step and is acutely aware of the match situation, he has very good hands and I can't praise him enough.

For me, he is going to be one of the all black greats, I know it is early in his career, but hell he is good.

I agree with nearly every word here except the all time great part, not that he doesn't have the potential but I think luck, injuries and form play a huge part in becoming a great.

I would say though, working hard in the off season can be very detrimental to players at times, youth and exhuberance is very commendable but when training too hard in the off season they sometimes need an older head to explain to them that the folleys of youth won't last forever.

Mental burnout sounds like a term over used at times, and it mostly used in the wrong instances, but small dips in form, small margins not going your way, and little bounces of the ball can all be attributed to mental fatigue because the rest period of the off season (which isn't that much anyway) isn't treated with enough respect by younger players.

I heard similar about a number of players, after their debut season they got obsessed with becoming the best, improving and focused on weaknesses, Henson and Ashton are 2 that jump to mind, but when form is that high like Savea's is, and players are that obsessed with becoming the best they can become a bit fragile especially if they see an extended period of bad luck or poor team performances.

I may be wrong and Savea may deal with the pressure and improvement immensely well, but he also needs an arm around the shoulder to explain to him to enjoy the blistering form, if and when it drops to relax and wait for it to return.

agree and understand where you are coming from, perhaps I should have said potentially an All Black great.

How'd you think brother Ardie did Kia? What surprised me was his ability in the breakdowns, the turnovers etc. For 9 kg must be one of the lightest forwards in super rugby but sure can use it.

Will be short of matchplay but in two seasons the Canes sure have added a good number of new players to the scene...the Saveas, Andre Taylor, Barrett, Perenara, Coles, Bateman. Leiua to name a few.

Who will be the third prong at the back with Savea and Dagg? Gear is showing more and more ability in getting involved in an otherwise failing Highlanders side but for me Rangers thrived under JK and has freakish attacking skills, strength in the tight and packs some energy ready to burst at the next level. Just feel his time is now.

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:What I like about him is that he isn't an out and out strike runner, he varies his pace with ball in hand, knows when to accelerate, knows when to step and is acutely aware of the match situation, he has very good hands and I can't praise him enough.

For me, he is going to be one of the all black greats, I know it is early in his career, but hell he is good.

I agree with nearly every word here except the all time great part, not that he doesn't have the potential but I think luck, injuries and form play a huge part in becoming a great.

I would say though, working hard in the off season can be very detrimental to players at times, youth and exhuberance is very commendable but when training too hard in the off season they sometimes need an older head to explain to them that the folleys of youth won't last forever.

Mental burnout sounds like a term over used at times, and it mostly used in the wrong instances, but small dips in form, small margins not going your way, and little bounces of the ball can all be attributed to mental fatigue because the rest period of the off season (which isn't that much anyway) isn't treated with enough respect by younger players.

I heard similar about a number of players, after their debut season they got obsessed with becoming the best, improving and focused on weaknesses, Henson and Ashton are 2 that jump to mind, but when form is that high like Savea's is, and players are that obsessed with becoming the best they can become a bit fragile especially if they see an extended period of bad luck or poor team performances.

I may be wrong and Savea may deal with the pressure and improvement immensely well, but he also needs an arm around the shoulder to explain to him to enjoy the blistering form, if and when it drops to relax and wait for it to return.

agree and understand where you are coming from, perhaps I should have said potentially an All Black great.

A timely and solemn lesson perhaps Bluesman?

We do tend to push our players into the record books perhaps a little too quickly and Savea's a good example.

Part of this is because we believe in the system these boys come through- and I do mean boy's. Savea's ticked all the right boxes for some time now. He was the player of the tournament for the under 20's side 3 odd years ago, already showing the maturity back then to dominate the position at that level. As Kia so aptly puts it since progressing to the sxv and International level he's shown a Hunger to learn and is now starting to dominate the same position at the top levels. He's still a work in progress albeit a very good one. He was brought back to earth as you say a few times- Ireland second test last year and has already had to face some form and confidence issues and has come though that with flying colours from what I've seen.

Agree with your comments to a point Bluesman and some of that apprehension is offset by a very, very good system in behind him. One that is proven and probably unmatched anywhere else. Henson and Ashton as good as they were, or are, simply had nowhere near the kind of support and infrastructure that NZ has in ensuring their players are supported in every possible way. Yes he has, and will have to face his demons, but no more than any other All Black placed in his position, and so far, he's doing just fine.

This Ardie seems to be a player certainly to look out for Taylorman. I'm not sure 7 could be his position. Might do an Eric Rush on us and move out to the backs. But like you say, the Hurricanes are full of young talent that will only get better.

A player's career never moves in a linear form. You have to know how to cope with disappointment as well as build on your mini-victories. It's easy to forget how young some of these players are and what pressure we place on them and how unforgiving we can be when it doesn't go right. I really felt for Priestland last year who never should've been put in that position.

Hosea Gear is a grown man but he also is a role model for Savea. He didn't pack a sad when he was replaced by Savea and he turned down an offer to Japan because he still had that hunger for an AB shirt. That commitment is what's needed for the younger players coming through in terms of letting them see how much it means to be an AB and how hard you have to work at it.

Your points are valid bluesman but so too is the realisation that things don't come easily to players at the top. You have to prepare well and you have to strive to be as consistent as possible otherwise you don't get picked. The NZ public won't forgive bad performances let alone a string of them. Some days will be better than others especially on the wing but that hunger always has to be there.

And after all, it is only a game... and I honestly believe these boys do know that, regardless of the hype, money, media and fans. They also have so many role models, as Kia says, before them, to make the choice to have a real go at it, or ull back and just enjoy it for what it is. I think many players make those kind of decisions all the time.

Timely point though bluesman, a reminder that theyre really all young kids, individuals etc.

Sometimes it's a matter of having the right temperament and getting confidence. If you compare Slade and Barrett in the way they took to AB rugby, after one promising game in Sydney Slade looked really nervous. He did a few good things but he also looked like he wasn't enjoying himself and that led me to believe the pressure was getting to him. Barrett did some very nice things and made a few mistakes as well but he looked as though he was enjoying his footy. Similar age and similar experience. Some just take to it better than others. Sometimes it's a matter of telling yourself it's just a game and I belong here and backing yourself to play your natural game because that's what you were picked for.

Taylorman wrote:

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:What I like about him is that he isn't an out and out strike runner, he varies his pace with ball in hand, knows when to accelerate, knows when to step and is acutely aware of the match situation, he has very good hands and I can't praise him enough.

For me, he is going to be one of the all black greats, I know it is early in his career, but hell he is good.

I agree with nearly every word here except the all time great part, not that he doesn't have the potential but I think luck, injuries and form play a huge part in becoming a great.

I would say though, working hard in the off season can be very detrimental to players at times, youth and exhuberance is very commendable but when training too hard in the off season they sometimes need an older head to explain to them that the folleys of youth won't last forever.

Mental burnout sounds like a term over used at times, and it mostly used in the wrong instances, but small dips in form, small margins not going your way, and little bounces of the ball can all be attributed to mental fatigue because the rest period of the off season (which isn't that much anyway) isn't treated with enough respect by younger players.

I heard similar about a number of players, after their debut season they got obsessed with becoming the best, improving and focused on weaknesses, Henson and Ashton are 2 that jump to mind, but when form is that high like Savea's is, and players are that obsessed with becoming the best they can become a bit fragile especially if they see an extended period of bad luck or poor team performances.

I may be wrong and Savea may deal with the pressure and improvement immensely well, but he also needs an arm around the shoulder to explain to him to enjoy the blistering form, if and when it drops to relax and wait for it to return.

agree and understand where you are coming from, perhaps I should have said potentially an All Black great.

A timely and solemn lesson perhaps Bluesman?

We do tend to push our players into the record books perhaps a little too quickly and Savea's a good example.

Part of this is because we believe in the system these boys come through- and I do mean boy's. Savea's ticked all the right boxes for some time now. He was the player of the tournament for the under 20's side 3 odd years ago, already showing the maturity back then to dominate the position at that level. As Kia so aptly puts it since progressing to the sxv and International level he's shown a Hunger to learn and is now starting to dominate the same position at the top levels. He's still a work in progress albeit a very good one. He was brought back to earth as you say a few times- Ireland second test last year and has already had to face some form and confidence issues and has come though that with flying colours from what I've seen.

Agree with your comments to a point Bluesman and some of that apprehension is offset by a very, very good system in behind him. One that is proven and probably unmatched anywhere else. Henson and Ashton as good as they were, or are, simply had nowhere near the kind of support and infrastructure that NZ has in ensuring their players are supported in every possible way. Yes he has, and will have to face his demons, but no more than any other All Black placed in his position, and so far, he's doing just fine.

I agree 100% mate, the all black junior development pathways are the best on the planet (allthough not perfect) and develop the most rounded players at just about every position and level. Then there are the support networks, the governing bodies consistency and the solid and stable foundations of the SXV franchises etc...

However my points were very much pointed toward the elements of rest and recovery in players training regimes, shedules etc...

Huge amounts of players still think today that rest and recovery isn't work and is waste, time they could be in the gym, or studying other elements, but infact rest and recovery IMHO is the biggest challenge todays players face, no pro rugby player wants a few days off, they all obsess with the game even in downtime, and thats natural, but not healthy (not that anything they do to their bodies is healthy)

Young players today struggle to get to grips with their bodies tell tale signs, and I notice more and more after training will sit down to relax and reover, after a few minutes consider themselves fresh and start making moves to hit the gym or study playbooks etc, it really does take it's tole on the mind, constantly thinking about whats next, how to improve etc...

For all the Henson bashing he had the ability and work ethic to match Carter, and possibly surpass him. He was always the first on the training pitch, last off, and would try to dictate training to his specific needs as to work on his weaknesses and push his strengths, I was told stories of him having arguments with some true welsh legends about how they weren't trying hard enough, standards weren't maintained throughout sessions etc and from a teenage boy!! This was a pro minded kid in an amateur era, but he became fully obsessed with rugby, and wierdly had a reclusive personality eventually. After winning world young player of the year I personally think he had a mini breakdown, the whole Church and fame thing was escapism pure and simple, something he didn't have to work at and could forget the obsession that was the game.

Now I'm not comparing the 2 players, Savea doesn't have the raw skill of Henson, but has a much more devestating physical presence, but both will grow through 2 of the most intimidating goldfish bowls on the planet, allbeit Savea will have support, understanding and some rugby nous from his governing body, whereas Henson was sold down the river as a 23 yr old, and Savea will probably understand pressures similarly, and both would probably understand each others work ethis and ambition.

My point is Savea is still a kid (my brother is 5 years younger than me at 24 and he is still a boy) but we be treated on an equal standing as guys twice as mature, older players and coaches have to recognise this and treat him as such (possibly without him knowing), nurture this guy and educate him that rest is very difficult, but as if not more important than anything else he does if he wants to succeed, a great NFL conditioner I met once told me 'It's not just what you do that makes a difference, it's how you let your body react to what you do that seperates the true class from the nearly men'

Ardie had a very good game. Lots of tackles, clearing rucks, stole the ball once or twice and a few good runs. He's very young and I'm a bit nervous him playing too much Super Rugby this year ( and even next to be honest). I'd not like to see him chosen for the ABs until he's got a bit more experience, age and size in him.

Worrying news with Savea being granted bail on assault charges. He's been kept in the Hurricanes environment but it'll be interesting to see if he's selected for the Stormers match.

Best environment for him to be in is a rugby one until the court case but it must be weighing on his mind and his performances is bound to suffer as a result. Pretty slim on facts at the moment but he has admitted to making a mistake and wants to make amends. Not the news anyone wanted to hear after he was looking so promising early on.

Yeah must be honest, I was very disappointed when I heard about that

still warm the cockles kia?

should have picked a better example like 1/2p eh?

None more so than his younger brother Ardie. No defending that sort of behaviour. Now he will need a hunger to make amends, though we'll only know if he can when his case is heard.

His mum said he must have just pushed her because he isn't like that.

Anway may be he's innocent of assault he hasn't been convicted yet.

A lot of these guys dont kick on until theyve been involved in some controversy.

like.....

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Worrying news with Savea being granted bail on assault charges. He's been kept in the Hurricanes environment but it'll be interesting to see if he's selected for the Stormers match.

Best environment for him to be in is a rugby one until the court case but it must be weighing on his mind and his performances is bound to suffer as a result. Pretty slim on facts at the moment but he has admitted to making a mistake and wants to make amends. Not the news anyone wanted to hear after he was looking so promising early on.

Great to see people not rushing to judgment when they make mistakes off the field. Great to see a lack of media circus and gloating from supporters of other nations. One rule for the English and another for everyone else eh?

Savea is innocent until proven guilty so i'll use other examples.

I am bitter about the way guys from the south can commit assault (Beale x2 ) and burglary (Cooper) and its all just "let's close ranks and support the poor lamb" but a few English players get on the lash during the last RWC and its made into a fecking circus and widely condemned/gloated about for months afterwards.

Smells like hypocrisy to me.

I think the gloating you speak of Tri came from the quarter final exit rather than the boozing.

What Beale, Guildford and co all did is indefensible. What you try to do is not repeat it. Many in England found it difficult to contemplate an early exit. Tindall etc were made scapegoats and they hoped it wouldn't be the same in 2015. Outside England they were used as points of reminder to England's defeat. Just like people use the word choke to bait Kiwis. Look at the attention as a compliment.

Triangulation wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Worrying news with Savea being granted bail on assault charges. He's been kept in the Hurricanes environment but it'll be interesting to see if he's selected for the Stormers match.

Best environment for him to be in is a rugby one until the court case but it must be weighing on his mind and his performances is bound to suffer as a result. Pretty slim on facts at the moment but he has admitted to making a mistake and wants to make amends. Not the news anyone wanted to hear after he was looking so promising early on.

Great to see people not rushing to judgment when they make mistakes off the field. Great to see a lack of media circus and gloating from supporters of other nations. One rule for the English and another for everyone else eh?

Savea is innocent until proven guilty so i'll use other examples.

I am bitter about the way guys from the south can commit assault (Beale x2 ) and burglary (Cooper) and its all just "let's close ranks and support the poor lamb" but a few English players get on the lash during the last RWC and its made into a fecking circus and widely condemned/gloated about for months afterwards.

Smells like hypocrisy to me.

Make no mistake, there was a thread and it rushed to judgement and gloating, it was removed as it was in poor tste.

Biltong wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Worrying news with Savea being granted bail on assault charges. He's been kept in the Hurricanes environment but it'll be interesting to see if he's selected for the Stormers match.

Best environment for him to be in is a rugby one until the court case but it must be weighing on his mind and his performances is bound to suffer as a result. Pretty slim on facts at the moment but he has admitted to making a mistake and wants to make amends. Not the news anyone wanted to hear after he was looking so promising early on.

Great to see people not rushing to judgment when they make mistakes off the field. Great to see a lack of media circus and gloating from supporters of other nations. One rule for the English and another for everyone else eh?

Savea is innocent until proven guilty so i'll use other examples.

I am bitter about the way guys from the south can commit assault (Beale x2 ) and burglary (Cooper) and its all just "let's close ranks and support the poor lamb" but a few English players get on the lash during the last RWC and its made into a fecking circus and widely condemned/gloated about for months afterwards.

Smells like hypocrisy to me.

Make no mistake, there was a thread and it rushed to judgement and gloating, it was removed as it was in poor tste.

Right well there are idiots everywhere. My point stands though. The scale of the sh*tstorm that was sent the way of England supporters and team at RWC reveals to me the depth of hatred for us out there. It was quite shocking to see how much schadenfreude there was. Only a couple of days ago Kia felt it necessary to bring it all up again because i had dared to question Warburton's captaincy credentials partly on the basis of what i saw as being an unecessary focus by warburton on his team's "squaky clean" (warburton's words not mine) behaviour and image. In my old age i have mellowed in that part of me that was more fervently nationalistic in my support of my team. These days i want us to win but i want to see the best possible players on all sides free from injury AND all other distraction playing to the best of their ability. I want to see great rugby. I think we need that as a sport.

Exsqueeze me? A baking powder!

You were the one bringing it up alluding to Warburton's comments of Wales' squeaky clean image! You seem to think Warburton represents that unsavoury focus on England's off-field performances whereas all I care to focus on is their lack-lustre on-field performances.

When your team goes out early, you try to find scapegoats. Your media did that along with all the rest. It happens everywhere.

How you think Warburton's comments are relevant to the Lions captaincy reveals more about your personal issues than his.

Triangulation wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Worrying news with Savea being granted bail on assault charges. He's been kept in the Hurricanes environment but it'll be interesting to see if he's selected for the Stormers match.

Best environment for him to be in is a rugby one until the court case but it must be weighing on his mind and his performances is bound to suffer as a result. Pretty slim on facts at the moment but he has admitted to making a mistake and wants to make amends. Not the news anyone wanted to hear after he was looking so promising early on.

Great to see people not rushing to judgment when they make mistakes off the field. Great to see a lack of media circus and gloating from supporters of other nations. One rule for the English and another for everyone else eh?

Savea is innocent until proven guilty so i'll use other examples.

I am bitter about the way guys from the south can commit assault (Beale x2 ) and burglary (Cooper) and its all just "let's close ranks and support the poor lamb" but a few English players get on the lash during the last RWC and its made into a fecking circus and widely condemned/gloated about for months afterwards.

Smells like hypocrisy to me.

Make no mistake, there was a thread and it rushed to judgement and gloating, it was removed as it was in poor tste.

Right well there are idiots everywhere. My point stands though. The scale of the sh*tstorm that was sent the way of England supporters and team at RWC reveals to me the depth of hatred for us out there. It was quite shocking to see how much schadenfreude there was. Only a couple of days ago Kia felt it necessary to bring it all up again because i had dared to question Warburton's captaincy credentials partly on the basis of what i saw as being an unecessary focus by warburton on his team's "squaky clean" (warburton's words not mine) behaviour and image. In my old age i have mellowed in that part of me that was more fervently nationalistic in my support of my team. These days i want us to win but i want to see the best possible players on all sides free from injury AND all other distraction playing to the best of their ability. I want to see great rugby. I think we need that as a sport.

Yeah look, I am not going to argue against the fact that the English aren't the most popular sporting teams around. But then their history is long and some people hold grudges just because they can.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Exsqueeze me? A baking powder!

You were the one bringing it up alluding to Warburton's comments of Wales' squeaky clean image! You seem to think Warburton represents that unsavoury focus on England's off-field performances whereas all I care to focus on is their lack-lustre on-field performances.

When your team goes out early, you try to find scapegoats. Your media did that along with all the rest. It happens everywhere.

How you think Warburton's comments are relevant to the Lions captaincy reveals more about your personal issues than his.

No Kia. I never made the connection. At all. You did that.

My point (one of at least 5 as to why he shouldnt be Lions captain) a very discrete one to do with team culture and what i saw was just over the top from him on zero alcohol consumption. You then chimed in with comments about dwarf tossing.

Gatland's clumsy revisitation of it does him no credit either.

We can all speculate that there was a large degree of smugness in his unecessary pronouncements on off field behaviour at the time but at the end of the day that is just speculation.

You are right to say that had England performed better on field the off field stuff would not have been mentioned nearly so much. But it was over and over again by all and sundry. It is fine. At least we know where we stand. Just dont expect anyone to share your sympathy for poor diddums when he (insert various SH names here) commits criminal offences and our guys have been hung out to dry for getting drunk.

I do seem to remember the circus developing BEFORE we got knocked out of the RWC not afterwards.

I dont know if you have any appreciation of the perception strongly felt that there is a huge double standard at play. It makes it difficult to cast aside the one yeed nationalistic support in favour of just wanting to see the best from all teams out on the field performing distraction free and to the best of their ability.

Triangulation wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Exsqueeze me? A baking powder!

You were the one bringing it up alluding to Warburton's comments of Wales' squeaky clean image! You seem to think Warburton represents that unsavoury focus on England's off-field performances whereas all I care to focus on is their lack-lustre on-field performances.

When your team goes out early, you try to find scapegoats. Your media did that along with all the rest. It happens everywhere.

How you think Warburton's comments are relevant to the Lions captaincy reveals more about your personal issues than his.

No Kia. I never made the connection. At all. You did that.

My point (one of at least 5 as to why he shouldnt be Lions captain) a very discrete one to do with team culture and what i saw was just over the top from him on zero alcohol consumption. You then chimed in with comments about dwarf tossing.

Gatland's clumsy revisitation of it does him no credit either.

We can all speculate that there was a large degree of smugness in his unecessary pronouncements on off field behaviour at the time but at the end of the day that is just speculation.

You are right to say that had England performed better on field the off field stuff would not have been mentioned nearly so much. But it was over and over again by all and sundry. It is fine. At least we know where we stand. Just dont expect anyone to share your sympathy for poor diddums when he (insert various SH names here) commits criminal offences and our guys have been hung out to dry for getting drunk.

I do seem to remember the circus developing BEFORE we got knocked out of the RWC not afterwards.

I dont know if you have any appreciation of the perception strongly felt that there is a huge double standard at play. It makes it difficult to cast aside the one yeed nationalistic support in favour of just wanting to see the best from all teams out on the field performing distraction free and to the best of their ability.

I'm coming to this late, but I'd suggest that a lot of the "circus" started with the English media, who love to pull any story they can about "their" team. That attention lead to lots of others at RWC time jumping in on the bandwagon when they saw how much "fun" was to be had.

Most of the time the English media don't particularly care about what's going on in SH rugby, so those sorts of circuses don't get started about SH players. The downunder media tends to be a bit more circumspect, in particular where court procedings are concerned. Certainy at times a circus does get started - Umaga hitting a teammate in a bar with a bystander's handbag for example, while it's not so long ago that an Aussie NRL player basically got hounded (if you'll excuse the pun) out of the country over pictures of him pretending to <ahem> a teammate's pet dog.

Go back to the thread Tri and I suggest you're mixing me up with someone else. I never made any reference to dwarf tossing so I'd be grateful if you stop putting words into my mouth.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Go back to the thread Tri and I suggest you're mixing me up with someone else. I never made any reference to dwarf tossing so I'd be grateful if you stop putting words into my mouth.

Ok i cant be bothered to do that so ill withdraw that.

You're splitting hairs though now. The rest stands.

Fed up with it.

England made a lot of unnecessary and irrelevant performances on the field at the last RWC. It happened and it's frustrating no doubt that they're remembered more for their off-field performances. Warburton isn't to blame for that Triangulation.

I'd rather see SOB at 6 and Tipuric and Faletau operating in combination but I too have a sneaking suspicion Gatland will plump for an all Welsh backrow. I think Robshaw, for example, would make a better captain but I just don't see Gatland accommodating him in the backrow because of the balance issue.

kiakahaaotearoa

I'm not looking for sympathy from people writing about Savea. I started a thread on how pleased I was with his performances this year in the Super 15 and wrote the addendum to show my disappointment that those performances are now in jeopardy because of this court case hanging over him and being separated from his wife and child. It is you who is bringing to this thread an agenda about how unfair your players were treated in that incident in 2007. We all want our best players to be free from distractions or injuries and playing the best rugby possible. Now Savea has made that exceedingly difficult and that is a shame. He brought it upon himself and doesn't require our pity or sympathy. He needs now to work hard to regain our respect and it's not going to be easy for such a young man away from his normal environment and now in the public eye for all the wrong reasons.

You could've just said you don't like Warburton as a candidate for captain and that would have been fine. Other people might think that you're being anti-Welsh but that is their problem. You could cite that Robshaw is a better leader or SOB is a more dynamic and consistent player. But your reasons in my view added nothing much to the debate except personal baggage.

Much like your contribution on this thread.

So let's just say we're both fed up and leave it at that.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:England made a lot of unnecessary and irrelevant performances on the field at the last RWC. It happened and it's frustrating no doubt that they're remembered more for their off-field performances. Warburton isn't to blame for that Triangulation.I'd rather see SOB at 6 and Tipuric and Faletau operating in combination but I too have a sneaking suspicion Gatland will plump for an all Welsh backrow. I think Robshaw, for example, would make a better captain but I just don't see Gatland accommodating him in the backrow because of the balance issue.

kiakahaaotearoa

I'm not looking for sympathy from people writing about Savea. I started a thread on how pleased I was with his performances this year in the Super 15 and wrote the addendum to show my disappointment that those performances are now in jeopardy because of this court case hanging over him and being separated from his wife and child. It is you who is bringing to this thread an agenda about how unfair your players were treated in that incident in 2007. We all want our best players to be free from distractions or injuries and playing the best rugby possible. Now Savea has made that exceedingly difficult and that is a shame. He brought it upon himself and doesn't require our pity or sympathy. He needs now to work hard to regain our respect and it's not going to be easy for such a young man away from his normal environment and now in the public eye for all the wrong reasons.

You could've just said you don't like Warburton as a candidate for captain and that would have been fine. Other people might think that you're being anti-Welsh but that is their problem. You could cite that Robshaw is a better leader or SOB is a more dynamic and consistent player. But your reasons in my view added nothing much to the debate except personal baggage.

Thanks for that. I have bolded the bit where you link England RWC to my objection to warburton. Completely irrelevantly and unecessarily (and i see that you have now ascribed that to my alleged baggage talk about takling 2 and 2 adding them together and getting 13!

I DID say that warburton is not in my back row! I DID say SOB is a better 6 and Tipuric is a better 7!!

I have made my point.

In reply to your claim that he has a 'preachy zero alcohol stance'.

Warburton made a lot of unecessary and irrelevant pronouncements about Wales off field behaviour around the last RWC.

Face it chaps it would be a big mistake to make him captain.

That is you bringing up the World Cup and his preachy zero alcohol stance evidently rubbed you the wrong way because of all the media attention England received and that is why you feel his claims are unnecessary and irrelevant. Hence my post.

You gave your back row (we can agree on some things )because I asked you what your back row was. I made that comment because you brought the World Cup up. These things are not coincidental.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:In reply to your claim that he has a 'preachy zero alcohol stance'.

Warburton made a lot of unecessary and irrelevant pronouncements about Wales off field behaviour around the last RWC.

Face it chaps it would be a big mistake to make him captain.

That is you bringing up the World Cup and his preachy zero alcohol stance evidently rubbed you the wrong way because of all the media attention England received and that is why you feel his claims are unnecessary and irrelevant. Hence my post.

You gave your back row (we can agree on some things )because I asked you what your back row was. I made that comment because you brought the World Cup up. These things are not coincidental.

Oh Kia i like your posts for the most part and i tend to agree with much of what you say but you have made an "ass" out of "u" and "me" and you know it.

Interesting point about the media being raised on this thread and i agree with the poster who says the SH media are more circumspect. I'd probably substitute "sycophantic" for "circumspect". That being said, our media in the Uk are appalling and love to canibalise their own. They do have to shoulder a lot of the blame for the hoopla and England learned a lesson too.