Scotland and the Lions

by bsando Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:53 am

First topic message reminder :

Thinking about the Lions squad announcement at the end of this month, I was reading up on some Scottish Lions history. I didn't quite realise how bad Scotland's recent representation in the Lions had been...

2013 - ? (?) 6 Nations Result: 3rd

2009 - 2 (Murray, Hines) Blair & Ford after injuries occurred 6 Nations Result: 5th

2005 - 3 (Bulloch, Taylor and Cusiter) 6 Nations Result: 5th

2001 - 5 (Nicol, Smith, Bulloch, Murray and Taylor) 6 Nations Result: 3rd

1997 - 5 (Tait, Townsend, Smith, Weir and Wainwright) 5 Nations Result: 4th

The last time Scotland had some decent representation was back in 1993...

1993 - 8 (Hastings x2, Nicol, Burnell, Cronin, Milne, Reed, Wright) 5 Nations Result: 2nd

Looking back at the last 10 + years of Scottish rugby, in term of tries and wins, it has really been dreadful.

Statistics

This year Scotland scored 7 tries in the 6N, which is 2 tries off their high score of 9 tries in a 6N tournament. Italy's high score is 12 tries.

We also set a PB in terms of points scored in the tournament, with 98 points. That is the most points Scotland has ever scored in a 6N tournament, the lowest being 56 points in 2012 and 69 in 2008. The likes of Wales, England, Ireland and France have been consistently in double figures when it comes to tries.

So, going by recent history, the last time Scotland finished 3rd in the 6N they had 5 players selected for the Lions tour.

Scotland's Lions 2013

In 2009 6N, Scotland were poor with flickers of potential. This year they have shown some good signs of improvement and progress as well as some pretty talented new players. Will this mean Scotland shall have 5 players like in 2001? Or will they perhaps even have a few more? These are the most likely candidates in my view, in order of likeliness...

Gray, Hogg, Visser, Maitland, Brown, Ford, Laidlaw, Beattie, Murray, Scott, Grant... (I am sure many of you would debate this, but this is just what I think)

To me at least, the signs show that Scotland will have its best representation since 2001. Which I think would be fantastic for Scottish rugby. Come the Autumn internationals, we could have 5 or more Lions in the starting XV for Scotland. That would potentially give more confidence to Scotland's new and promising players such as Horne, Dunbar, Wilson, Reid, Swinson, MacInally etc, who will have enjoyed a tour to SA to play Itlay, SA and Samoa.

So how many Scots do you think will tour? What are your thoughts on Scotland and the Lions this year and in the past? Do you think Scotland will be looking at better representation in the future now we have a more promising team?

by Taffineastbourne Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:09 pm

Biltong wrote:Taffineastbourne and GeordieFalcon it is clear you are coming from different angles on the topic and not agreeing.

I suggest you leave each other to his opinion.

You appear to be mixing George Carlin with Geordie Falcon or are they the same poster!

by **Biltong** Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:14 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:
Biltong wrote:Taffineastbourne and GeordieFalcon it is clear you are coming from different angles on the topic and not agreeing.

I suggest you leave each other to his opinion.
You appear to be mixing George Carlin with Geordie Falcon or are they the same poster!

Carlin

by Geordie Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:16 pm

Biltong wrote:Taffineastbourne and GeordieFalcon it is clear you are coming from different angles on the topic and not agreeing.

I suggest you leave each other to his opinion.

Sorry Bilts...i think you'll find it Taff and Mr Carlin having a discusion... Very Happy

by **Biltong** Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:20 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Biltong wrote:Taffineastbourne and GeordieFalcon it is clear you are coming from different angles on the topic and not agreeing.

I suggest you leave each other to his opinion.

Sorry Bilts...i think you'll find it Taff and Mr Carlin having a discusion...

Yeah sorry mate, Got a tad confused there.

by **RDW** Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:23 pm

I think Gray had a decent 6N and it is pretty unjustified to say he has had a massive drop off in form. Yes he wasn’t making line breaks like he used to but it’s not exactly in the remit for a 2nd row is it?

He has really added to his physicality and was very strong and abrasive in every game, putting a massive shift in. He had a fantastic Autumn series and was one of the best players on the pitch against New Zealand – which is a lot in itself. He’s not done much in a Sale shirt but it doesn’t seem to have affected his form at International level.

So in the avoidance of any doubt and for any further words to be misconstrued – Gray should only go if fit and looking on form.

But we’re all entitled to our opinions!

by **George Carlin** Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:28 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Taff - I am fascinated. You've taken a pop at three different posters on this thread now (to say nothing of "mercenaries", whatever they may be) who have expressed an opinion contrary to your own so I'd like to understand which of the following two positions is the accurate one:

Either (a) you don't realise that your posts tend to be unpleasant, condescending, ill-informed, graceless snots of vitriol or (b) you do realise that they are but choose to post them anyway.

Which is it?
George,if you feel that having a discussion is having a pop Lord help us.I find your post offensive in the extreme.This is a forum for people to express their opinions.If you do not like this why do you visit?

I see, so it's (a) - many thanks.

Eastbourne is a perfect place for you.

by Taffineastbourne Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:29 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think Gray had a decent 6N and it is pretty unjustified to say he has had a massive drop off in form. Yes he wasn’t making line breaks like he used to but it’s not exactly in the remit for a 2nd row is it?

He has really added to his physicality and was very strong and abrasive in every game, putting a massive shift in. He had a fantastic Autumn series and was one of the best players on the pitch against New Zealand – which is a lot in itself. He’s not done much in a Sale shirt but it doesn’t seem to have affected his form at International level.

So in the avoidance of any doubt and for any further words to be misconstrued – Gray should only go if fit and looking on form.

But we’re all entitled to our opinions!

Even me

by **Biltong** Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:32 pm

George Carlin wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Taff - I am fascinated. You've taken a pop at three different posters on this thread now (to say nothing of "mercenaries", whatever they may be) who have expressed an opinion contrary to your own so I'd like to understand which of the following two positions is the accurate one:

Either (a) you don't realise that your posts tend to be unpleasant, condescending, ill-informed, graceless snots of vitriol or (b) you do realise that they are but choose to post them anyway.

Which is it?
George,if you feel that having a discussion is having a pop Lord help us.I find your post offensive in the extreme.This is a forum for people to express their opinions.If you do not like this why do you visit?
I see, so it's (a) - many thanks.

Eastbourne is a perfect place for you.

Enough George, you both made your point.

Next to retort will be facing further sanctions.

by tigertattie Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:41 pm

If players like Brown, Hogg and Scott are left out for a perceived Gatland favourite, then it will totally undermine the Lions.

Should we be picking a head coach that has not been involved with the home nations?

by Geordie Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:49 pm

Therein lies the issues TigerT.

We do need a coach from one of the home nations...but this then brings questions of favoritism. Now ive said above i believe there will be a large Welsh contingent...and rightly so they have been the consitent best of the home nations over the last few years.

HOWEVER, as above with my debate with Taff, i question the mentality issues. Australia have consistently beaten Wales...so straight away they would be psychologically stronger (only in my opinion of course). For this reason we need others who can offer variety and actual wins v Oz. Scottish players can provide that.

How we can have calls for Lydiate over Brown is ludicris...

Lets pick the form players...who have been playing regular high level competitive games. It will have a good number of Welsh...but it should not solely be Welsh.

by TJ1 Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:54 pm

I think and hope Gatland will learn from past mistakes of Lions coaches and pick without bias.

by Taffineastbourne Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:57 pm

I have every confidence that Gatland will pick form players

by Taffineastbourne Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:25 pm

I have been asked not to post on any thread that mentions Scottish players by the Moderators.I can only hope that Gatland does not pick any to tour as I will be barred from posting on the Lions Tour.
Seems a tad harsh but I must comply to the Mods wishes.
Freedom of speech isnt what it used to b.....

by flyhalffactory Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:30 pm

Gatland has stated that FORM will be an important criteria but as this is a Lions tour there are other equally important criteria not least Potential, Experience, Character, and being a Team Player on and off the pitch. He also stated that he has selected his Captain and 65% of the squad, but with 8-10 matches before the 1st test there is sufficient time for injured and players (with obvious talent) coming back from injury to arrive at their best form.

Hence "Form" whilst vitally important, will not be the only selection.

Hence the perceived best players in their position 5 POC, 6 Lydiate, 7 Rennie could yet be boarding the plane.

by LordDowlais Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:38 pm

Look I do not mean to be offending here, but why are people ringing the bell for Hogg ? Yes he is a good runner, but he is a turnstile when it comes to tackling, can any body here put their hand on their heart and say that you would pick Hogg for your team at fullback infront of Halfpenny or Rob Kearney, I know I wouldn't, then I am hearing nonsense about him playing on the wing, but who could he displace there, North, Cuthbert, Maitland, Visser, Bowe and Zebo are all better at being a winger than he is.

Look I am not saying Hogg is a bad player, in fact he is a player who has the potential to be world class but at the moment he is too rough around the edges and it does not help that he plays in a position of strength for the Lions, I think that he will not go on tour this year, but in four years time he very well could be the no. 1 contender.

by flyhalffactory Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Look I do not mean to be offending here, but he is a turnstile when it comes to tackling,

Yet again you are doing it on yet another good debate.

Give examples of his poor tackling (apart from the Fofana tackle)

by Geordie Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:49 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:Gatland has stated that FORM will be an important criteria but as this is a Lions tour there are other equally important criteria not least Potential, Experience, Character, and being a Team Player on and off the pitch. He also stated that he has selected his Captain and 65% of the squad, but with 8-10 matches before the 1st test there is sufficient time for injured and players (with obvious talent) coming back from injury to arrive at their best form.

Hence "Form" whilst vitally important, will not be the only selection.

Hence the perceived best players in their position 5 POC, 6 Lydiate, 7 Rennie could yet be boarding the plane.

See im not sure potential is something for a Lions tour. Thats for the individual nations summer tours. Ie Vunipola who is being touted. He has great potential at LH...but NO WAY should he tour on a Lions trip because he has potential.

I dont take lightly what young guys can learn on a tour...im sure they learn so much being around the top british players...but its not a training tour. Its one we want to go and win.

by LordDowlais Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:50 pm

well you have highlighted the most obvious one, but I have seen him miss tackles on numerous occasions in the Rabo also I cannot remember him doing anything good against Wales either. Look, just because I have a different opinion of him than you do then it does not mean I am trying to ruin a good debate, can you honestly say, hand on heart, that you would pick him infront of any of the players I have mentioned ?

by **RDW** Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:07 pm

LordDowlais wrote:well you have highlighted the most obvious one, but I have seen him miss tackles on numerous occasions in the Rabo also I cannot remember him doing anything good against Wales either. Look, just because I have a different opinion of him than you do then it does not mean I am trying to ruin a good debate, can you honestly say, hand on heart, that you would pick him infront of any of the players I have mentioned ?

I think one of the reasons we get so many arguments in here is the wording that people use - you say Hogg is a 'revolving door' in attack but those that watch him week in week out know that is a gross exaggeration. He is generally a strong defender, but was left flat footed by Fofana - something that happens to people quite a lot.

Now i'm not saying he is a rock in defence - yes he has the odd lapse - but his attacking ability and his kicking from hand are very good, so offset his perceived weekness somewhat.

1/2P and Kearny have weaknesses too - but that doens't stop them being top class rugby players.

For me I would be happy with any 3 to tour, but the reasoning behind Hogg is that he can do something in attack that not many others have done recently - and that can make a difference on the Lions tour.

by flyhalffactory Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:12 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:Gatland has stated that FORM will be an important criteria but as this is a Lions tour there are other equally important criteria not least Potential, Experience, Character, and being a Team Player on and off the pitch. He also stated that he has selected his Captain and 65% of the squad, but with 8-10 matches before the 1st test there is sufficient time for injured and players (with obvious talent) coming back from injury to arrive at their best form.

Hence "Form" whilst vitally important, will not be the only selection.

Hence the perceived best players in their position 5 POC, 6 Lydiate, 7 Rennie could yet be boarding the plane.

See im not sure potential is something for a Lions tour. Thats for the individual nations summer tours. Ie Vunipola who is being touted. He has great potential at LH...but NO WAY should he tour on a Lions trip because he has potential.

I dont take lightly what young guys can learn on a tour...im sure they learn so much being around the top british players...but its not a training tour. Its one we want to go and win.

Geordie I understand and agree on the whole with you are saying. But four ago there was a certain player with I believe less than a season in top class rugby and less than six months after his full international debut. He was rookie but one with potential and look at him now.... one of the best FBs in the NH..... yes a certain Leigh Halfpenny. I can go back further as well a certain BOD was only potential when he loaded the Lions plane.

I don't mean potential as young and inexperienced but also injured players who have been "best of breed" before their injuries i.e. Lydiate at 6 Rennie at 7 who have the potential to make the difference between been gallant losers and tour winners

by bsando Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:17 pm

Riskysports wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:I like how people are knocking the idea of Maitland going on tour, but they're more than happy to see Visser going (who doesn't even have a British relative), or Brad Baritt, the South African-born England centre. At the end of the day the country you represent is more-or-less your choice, dependent on circumstance. Admittedly Maitland is controversial in the sense he got to play for Scotland so quickly, but he at least has Scottish relatives!

I was born in England, but my parents are Scottish. I'd choose to represent Scotland over England if I was good enough and as far as I'm aware Maitland's pretty level headed about the whole thing, and seems like a great bloke from what we've heard of him from the Scotland camp, and I'd be as happy to see him in a Lions jersey as I am to see him in a Scotland one.

Totally agree on that point - he has a Scottish parent - so how much more qualified do you want

Yeah it's ridiculous, of course he deserves to tour. He has even stated the Lions is a big ambition of his. And I think someone on here even went as far to say "Scotland may be desperate but the lions aren't"... Well I wouldn't swap Maitland or visser for any other NH wingers, they're both incredibly talented and its still early days as far as their careers are concerned.

by LordDowlais Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:17 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:well you have highlighted the most obvious one, but I have seen him miss tackles on numerous occasions in the Rabo also I cannot remember him doing anything good against Wales either. Look, just because I have a different opinion of him than you do then it does not mean I am trying to ruin a good debate, can you honestly say, hand on heart, that you would pick him infront of any of the players I have mentioned ?

I think one of the reasons we get so many arguments in here is the wording that people use - you say Hogg is a 'revolving door' in attack but those that watch him week in week out know that is a gross exaggeration. He is generally a strong defender, but was left flat footed by Fofana - something that happens to people quite a lot.

Now i'm not saying he is a rock in defence - yes he has the odd lapse - but his attacking ability and his kicking from hand are very good, so offset his perceived weekness somewhat.

1/2P and Kearny have weaknesses too - but that doens't stop them being top class rugby players.

For me I would be happy with any 3 to tour, but the reasoning behind Hogg is that he can do something in attack that not many others have done recently - and that can make a difference on the Lions tour.

RDW, you constantly see Halfpenny being the last man and throwing is whole body into a tackle and preventing a try, he does this all the time constantly baffling people on just how on earth he manages it with the size he gives away. Look, I am not saying that Hogg is crap, far from it, there are just better players, at the moment, in his "positions" both at full back and on the wing, and I include the Scottish wingers in that to, it's just you have got over partizan tartan blooded Scots on here willing to defend their player to the last man, which is commendable, but I do not like being accused of trying to spoil a debate when I am just giving my opinion, Hogg is good, a very enthusiastic runner with a decent boot, but that is it, both Rob Kearney and Leigh Halfpenny are above him in the pecking order at the moment, but I am not saying that in four years time Hogg will indeed be the best because he has the potential to be THE best fullback in Britain and Ireland, he is just not quite there yet. Ale

by Taffineastbourne Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:21 pm

bsando wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:I like how people are knocking the idea of Maitland going on tour, but they're more than happy to see Visser going (who doesn't even have a British relative), or Brad Baritt, the South African-born England centre. At the end of the day the country you represent is more-or-less your choice, dependent on circumstance. Admittedly Maitland is controversial in the sense he got to play for Scotland so quickly, but he at least has Scottish relatives!

I was born in England, but my parents are Scottish. I'd choose to represent Scotland over England if I was good enough and as far as I'm aware Maitland's pretty level headed about the whole thing, and seems like a great bloke from what we've heard of him from the Scotland camp, and I'd be as happy to see him in a Lions jersey as I am to see him in a Scotland one.

Sadly I am unable to reply.

Totally agree on that point - he has a Scottish parent - so how much more qualified do you want

Yeah it's ridiculous, of course he deserves to tour. He has even stated the Lions is a big ambition of his. And I think someone on here even went as far to say "Scotland may be desperate but the lions aren't"... Well I wouldn't swap Maitland or visser for any other NH wingers, they're both incredibly talented and its still early days as far as their careers are concerned.

by LordDowlais Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:21 pm

bsando wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:I like how people are knocking the idea of Maitland going on tour, but they're more than happy to see Visser going (who doesn't even have a British relative), or Brad Baritt, the South African-born England centre. At the end of the day the country you represent is more-or-less your choice, dependent on circumstance. Admittedly Maitland is controversial in the sense he got to play for Scotland so quickly, but he at least has Scottish relatives!

I was born in England, but my parents are Scottish. I'd choose to represent Scotland over England if I was good enough and as far as I'm aware Maitland's pretty level headed about the whole thing, and seems like a great bloke from what we've heard of him from the Scotland camp, and I'd be as happy to see him in a Lions jersey as I am to see him in a Scotland one.

Totally agree on that point - he has a Scottish parent - so how much more qualified do you want

Yeah it's ridiculous, of course he deserves to tour. He has even stated the Lions is a big ambition of his. And I think someone on here even went as far to say "Scotland may be desperate but the lions aren't"... Well I wouldn't swap Maitland or visser for any other NH wingers, they're both incredibly talented and its still early days as far as their careers are concerned.

There are people on here who would put Hogg infront of both Maitland and Visser on the wing for the Lions which I find quite bizzare.

by bsando Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:28 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
bsando wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:I like how people are knocking the idea of Maitland going on tour, but they're more than happy to see Visser going (who doesn't even have a British relative), or Brad Baritt, the South African-born England centre. At the end of the day the country you represent is more-or-less your choice, dependent on circumstance. Admittedly Maitland is controversial in the sense he got to play for Scotland so quickly, but he at least has Scottish relatives!

I was born in England, but my parents are Scottish. I'd choose to represent Scotland over England if I was good enough and as far as I'm aware Maitland's pretty level headed about the whole thing, and seems like a great bloke from what we've heard of him from the Scotland camp, and I'd be as happy to see him in a Lions jersey as I am to see him in a Scotland one.

Totally agree on that point - he has a Scottish parent - so how much more qualified do you want

Yeah it's ridiculous, of course he deserves to tour. He has even stated the Lions is a big ambition of his. And I think someone on here even went as far to say "Scotland may be desperate but the lions aren't"... Well I wouldn't swap Maitland or visser for any other NH wingers, they're both incredibly talented and its still early days as far as their careers are concerned.

There are people on here who would put Hogg infront of both Maitland and Visser on the wing for the Lions which I find quite bizzare.

I blame jiffy for it, ever since he decided to put Hogg at 15 and halfpenny at 14 on his lions team via scrum V, people have been coming up with some wacky ideas.

by Solid8 Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
bsando wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:I like how people are knocking the idea of Maitland going on tour, but they're more than happy to see Visser going (who doesn't even have a British relative), or Brad Baritt, the South African-born England centre. At the end of the day the country you represent is more-or-less your choice, dependent on circumstance. Admittedly Maitland is controversial in the sense he got to play for Scotland so quickly, but he at least has Scottish relatives!

I was born in England, but my parents are Scottish. I'd choose to represent Scotland over England if I was good enough and as far as I'm aware Maitland's pretty level headed about the whole thing, and seems like a great bloke from what we've heard of him from the Scotland camp, and I'd be as happy to see him in a Lions jersey as I am to see him in a Scotland one.

Totally agree on that point - he has a Scottish parent - so how much more qualified do you want

Yeah it's ridiculous, of course he deserves to tour. He has even stated the Lions is a big ambition of his. And I think someone on here even went as far to say "Scotland may be desperate but the lions aren't"... Well I wouldn't swap Maitland or visser for any other NH wingers, they're both incredibly talented and its still early days as far as their careers are concerned.

There are people on here who would put Hogg infront of both Maitland and Visser on the wing for the Lions which I find quite bizzare.

It is bizarre because:

a) To my knowledge you are the first person on here to say this.
b) Hogg doesn't play on the wing. (he has once or twice played 13 at club level)

You may be confused because in one of the other myriad of threads about the Lions people suggested that 1/2p could be shifted to the wing so that Hogg could come in at fullback a suggestion that makes sense given that this is where 1/2p started his international career.

by flyhalffactory Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:well you have highlighted the most obvious one, but I have seen him miss tackles on numerous occasions in the Rabo also I cannot remember him doing anything good against Wales either. Look, just because I have a different opinion of him than you do then it does not mean I am trying to ruin a good debate, can you honestly say, hand on heart, that you would pick him infront of any of the players I have mentioned ?

"I think Halfpenny is a very poor positional player, in fact he is a revolving door as far as a positional FB, I mean just look at the games he has lost whilst been wearing a regional jersey, and how many times in the autumn 2012 and the OZ tour was he caught out". However Hogg positioning and attacking prowess at FB has made the difference between Glasgow been top of the Pro12 and other a team floundering in the bottom tier

Now what I have just typed is a load of codswallop because I cannae prove any of it, and its quite offensive as its untrue and tosh, but if I say it often enough people will start repeating it and suddenly the lemmings appear trolling everywhere. I.e. Halfpenny is a very poor positional FB....... or "Hogg is a revolving door defensively"

Now to get back to you........
Scotland v Wales
1/2p beats Hogg under the high ball
Hogg beats 1/2p under the high ball
The ball hits Hogg on the shoulder
That's under the high ball they were equal
Look at the stats on which FB made the most yardage, beat the most men, and created the most space in that particular match

However if you want to see a recent fantastic all round performance both defensive and offensive from an on form FB then watch the Glasgow 51-24 Munster match, that's more or less the Munster side that took apart Harlequins in the HC cup.

But then again you must have seen that as you stated you have watch Hogg many times in Pro12 games

by **RDW** Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:45 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0WM4Izk15w

Great try (not that I'm saying the other options don't score great tries too! Very Happy

)

by LordDowlais Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:51 pm

Solid8 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
bsando wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:I like how people are knocking the idea of Maitland going on tour, but they're more than happy to see Visser going (who doesn't even have a British relative), or Brad Baritt, the South African-born England centre. At the end of the day the country you represent is more-or-less your choice, dependent on circumstance. Admittedly Maitland is controversial in the sense he got to play for Scotland so quickly, but he at least has Scottish relatives!

I was born in England, but my parents are Scottish. I'd choose to represent Scotland over England if I was good enough and as far as I'm aware Maitland's pretty level headed about the whole thing, and seems like a great bloke from what we've heard of him from the Scotland camp, and I'd be as happy to see him in a Lions jersey as I am to see him in a Scotland one.

Totally agree on that point - he has a Scottish parent - so how much more qualified do you want

Yeah it's ridiculous, of course he deserves to tour. He has even stated the Lions is a big ambition of his. And I think someone on here even went as far to say "Scotland may be desperate but the lions aren't"... Well I wouldn't swap Maitland or visser for any other NH wingers, they're both incredibly talented and its still early days as far as their careers are concerned.

There are people on here who would put Hogg infront of both Maitland and Visser on the wing for the Lions which I find quite bizzare.

It is bizarre because:

a) To my knowledge you are the first person on here to say this.
b) Hogg doesn't play on the wing. (he has once or twice played 13 at club level)

You may be confused because in one of the other myriad of threads about the Lions people suggested that 1/2p could be shifted to the wing so that Hogg could come in at fullback a suggestion that makes sense given that this is where 1/2p started his international career.

There has been a deluge of first fifteen Lions teams with either Hogg at full back and Halfpenny on the wing or vice versa just so that they could shoe horn Hogg in, but for me he is not good enough to make the fist fifteen in any back three positions, and it has nothing to do about Hoggs ability but more to do with how good others are at fullback or wing.

by Guest Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:56 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0WM4Izk15w

Great try (not that I'm saying the other options don't score great tries too! )

Great try by Halfpenny in the last HC round https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDcVwDhepd0

But it can't be him because he can't/won't/doesn't attack!

They're both good players. Let them fight it out on tour instead.

by **RDW** Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:58 pm

Griff wrote:

They're both good players. Let them fight it out on tour instead.

Couldn't agree more.

by Captain_Sensible Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:59 pm

@LordDowlais

Fact is, you can poke holes in aspects of any player’s game. Kearney’s defensive prowess has declined since the last Lions tour - remember how he shat himself when Richie Gray scored vs Ireland last year? Halfpenny’s a solid player, but doesn’t have high-end, searing pace. His tackling stats are also misleading – quite a few times he’s been so out of position that he can’t even get over to make the tackle, or he slips up on the turf before getting to the player, as he did in last year’s AI game vs Samoa. His place kicking is good, but the Lions have a huge range of flyhalf kickers to choose from – Farrell, Sexton, Flood etc.

Hogg isn’t the first player to let Fofana squirm past him, and he won’t be the last. He also put in a try-saving hit on Debaty (?) earlier in that game, and his tackling is pretty good overall. I’d play him at 15 for the Lions in a heartbeat, as his skill and pace on the counter is unmatched by any other 15 in the Northern Hemisphere.

by Solid8 Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Solid8 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
bsando wrote:
Riskysports wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:I like how people are knocking the idea of Maitland going on tour, but they're more than happy to see Visser going (who doesn't even have a British relative), or Brad Baritt, the South African-born England centre. At the end of the day the country you represent is more-or-less your choice, dependent on circumstance. Admittedly Maitland is controversial in the sense he got to play for Scotland so quickly, but he at least has Scottish relatives!

I was born in England, but my parents are Scottish. I'd choose to represent Scotland over England if I was good enough and as far as I'm aware Maitland's pretty level headed about the whole thing, and seems like a great bloke from what we've heard of him from the Scotland camp, and I'd be as happy to see him in a Lions jersey as I am to see him in a Scotland one.

Totally agree on that point - he has a Scottish parent - so how much more qualified do you want

Yeah it's ridiculous, of course he deserves to tour. He has even stated the Lions is a big ambition of his. And I think someone on here even went as far to say "Scotland may be desperate but the lions aren't"... Well I wouldn't swap Maitland or visser for any other NH wingers, they're both incredibly talented and its still early days as far as their careers are concerned.

There are people on here who would put Hogg infront of both Maitland and Visser on the wing for the Lions which I find quite bizzare.

It is bizarre because:

a) To my knowledge you are the first person on here to say this.
b) Hogg doesn't play on the wing. (he has once or twice played 13 at club level)

You may be confused because in one of the other myriad of threads about the Lions people suggested that 1/2p could be shifted to the wing so that Hogg could come in at fullback a suggestion that makes sense given that this is where 1/2p started his international career.

There has been a deluge of first fifteen Lions teams with either Hogg at full back and Halfpenny on the wing or vice versa just so that they could shoe horn Hogg in, but for me he is not good enough to make the fist fifteen in any back three positions, and it has nothing to do about Hoggs ability but more to do with how good others are at fullback or wing.

The people suggesting Hogg plays on the wing are probably the same ones who were suggesting one of our back row forwards at 12!

Hogg will be in contention for the test team and there certainly is a viable option to play 1/2p on the wing as he has experience there at international level. At the end of the day Hogg's running offers something that none of the other contenders in his position can, especially when you consider what the pitches they will be playing on will be like (hard and fast). All players have weaknesses and all of the top players know their weaknesses and work on them Hogg is no exception.

If Jiffy, who is perhaps the world's most biased pundit, has suggested that Hogg plays 15 and 1/2p on the wing then do you not think that maybe your statements about Hogg being a "revolving door" may be a little wrong? Lets face it if he could find a credible way to justify the Welsh Back three starting for the Lions he would.

by **RDW** Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:06 pm

BTW that was a lovely try from 1/2P

by flyhalffactory Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:16 pm

Lord Dowlais

Just for you, as you don't regard Hogg (like it appears you don't regard 1/2p) has the attributes to play on the wing. By the way most of the clips are this season or last.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z91l6pyMcyY

Searing pace well above Visser, North and especially Cuthbert. Give him the ball and he will score tries
World class hand off remind me of James Hook who can run and hand off with ease
Searing acceleration and the ability to find the gap

Most important is quiet reserved and like 1/2p is looking to learn all the time, and no doubt is one of the form backs in the NH at the moment.

Room on the plane for both 1/2p and Hogg

by 123456789 Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:17 pm

I think Hogg will go simply because Kearney and Halfpenny are very similar, very good players who offer little attacking treat individually, at least not in the same way Hogg does, just watch the try he scored against Munster; he was marked by two men and neither laid a finger on him.
I think that the Irish and English wingers were definitely below the Scottish and welsh wingers in the six nations, North and Cuthbert will probably travel and I think Bowe might make it to because, when he's fit and on form, he's the best winger in the UK, that leaves one place for Maitland or Visser. Between them I'd go for Maitland because he can play full-back as well, he'll be used to playing in Australia and against Australian players because of his super rugby background and he's stronger in defence.
Another player who's been mentioned is Matt Scott. I think centre is a position of weakness for the Lions, Roberts is good at what he does but is one-dimensional, but he'll probably travel, that leaves one place for an inside-centre. Brad Barritt, is a decent player but no more. His tackling ability is lauded yet tackling is something that every decent centre should be able to do and offers nothing in attack which is partially why Wales beat England, Scott could sneak on the plane as a result however at outside centre there's Jonathan Davies, Manu Tuilagi, BOD and of course Nick De Luca, all of whom have the ability to play inside centre and therefore Gatland may only take one out and out 12.
Laidlaw is quite a basic player, in that individually he won't worry a defence like Mike Phillips, Ben Youngs or Danny Care however tactically he's very strong and his awareness is second to none. I think his inclusion depends on the way Gatland wants to play, I see very little point of taking Murray and Phillips, they are too similar. I'd also take Youngs or Care but not both, Youngs and Care are both good counter-attacking "sniping runners", therefore Gatland may takle Laidlaw because he offers something different. Personally I think that Laidlaw may struggle to get into the Edinburgh team next year the way Sean Kennedy is progressing but Laidlaw is very good at controlling a game and taking a bit of pressure off the fly-half.
I think the back-row is the stongest area and each country has at least one or two claims in each position. Brown has to go, he's been the most consistent blindside flanker in the Aviva premierhsip this year and is the only potential Lions blindside still in the Heineken cup this year. He can also do a job at openside and number 8 therefore making him ideal bench cover is necessary. In the six nations he played out of position and yet finished with the best statistics in a number of areas. I think it may be too late for Rennie and Barclay now, Rennie is, when fit, the best openside in the UK however his injury and Edinburgh's lack of form has meant he probably hasn't got enough time to play himself back into contention; Barclay is only now beginning to regain form and hasn't played to his full potential since 2010 and he didn't feature in the six nations either. Denton is a player that played himself out of contention with a lacklustre season and his standout moment from the six nations was his attempt to throw a scrum-half pass to Jackson. Beattie has been playing well for Montpellier and played reasonably well for Scotland and is probably behind Faletau but I think he has been better than Heaslip and also Morgan, he also has moments of genius, his hands are very good and he can also kick, which is obviously not something that is necessary for a forward or likely to come into Gatland's consideration.
Hines, Hamilton and Gray are all in with a chance, Hines is class and is still playing for the best team in Europe week in week out, Hamilton is strong, aggressive and has leadership qualities but he's also slow and gives away too many penalties. Gray is in my opinion one of the top two second-rows in the world although his move to Sale may have cost him, why players move the year before the Lions tour is beyond me, he could have played on with Glasgow where he is comfortable, kept up his form and then pocket a huge wage on the back of the Lions tour.
Euan Murray will probably travel as the third tighthead and Ford may also fill the role at hooker, however I think that is unlikely, I think he is better than Youngs and Hartley but I think Hibbard and Best are certs. Grant is in with a chance as well, I think Healy will travel as first choice and either Grant, Jenkins or Vunipola will also travel.

I think we'll see Murray, Gray, Brown, Beattie, Laidlaw, Maitland and Hogg tavel.

by flyhalffactory Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:18 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:BTW that was a lovely try from 1/2P

Agree a bloody good try

by flyhalffactory Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:38 pm

Back on topic

I can't see us supplying a hooker as I think Best Hibbard and Owens will travel, I would like to see Grant on the plane but think he will be at best on standby. Gray has shown decent but not outstanding form and the injury couldn't come at a worse moment, and with POC outstanding on the weekend, that's going to be a 50/50 call. Centres I believe will be Davies, Taulagi, BOD and Roberts so Matty Scott will probably be on standby altho he is a damn good 10 so that might carry in his favour

If we supply more than three I will be pleased, if more than five I will be shocked

Ford, Grant, Gray, Hines, Brown, Beattie, Rennie, Laidlaw, Scott, Maitland, Visser, Hogg all in with a shout of a plane ticket or on standby

by thebluesmancometh Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:46 pm

I don't understand the arguments, 1/2p and Hogg are both guarentee'd to travel with Kearney IMHO, they will be team mates and have the chance to compete for the test jersey.

Also who has mentioned Maitland not being eligible but the likes of Barritt, Visser, Hartley etc being ok? I havn't seen that argument yet?

by welshboii15 Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:51 pm

There are going a good account Scotts on tour so there should be because they finished 3rd in six nations. But all this Halfpenny vs Hogg etc going on now is to much they both have good and bad points both have more good than bad but the welsh are going pick Halfpenny and Scotts Hogg and so on. If gatland picks Halfpenny its going be said as favouritism and if Hogg starts and has an off day the excuses will come saying its not his fault and im sure us welsh would be the same. Kearney would be the best option I been on YouTube watching their games from this year and the fact is he might not be lightning quick but he can move, he's the best under high ball, he can kick and tackle answers all our problems

by LordDowlais Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:09 pm

I would pick Kearney as well.

by welshboii15 Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:17 pm

Im one of the ones that tried put Halfpenny ahead of Hogg and Hogg could do no right but I been on YouTube watched the three main contenders, Halfpenny and Hogg both good young players that have time on their hands to improve their wrong doings but Kearney is the complete package yes he's not at his best but he's still up there with them both and it could take one moment of brilliance and the guy could become confident again and that's what brings form

by LordDowlais Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:22 pm

welshboii15 wrote:Im one of the ones that tried put Halfpenny ahead of Hogg and Hogg could do no right but I been on YouTube watched the three main contenders, Halfpenny and Hogg both good young players that have time on their hands to improve their wrong doings but Kearney is the complete package yes he's not at his best but he's still up there with them both and it could take one moment of brilliance and the guy could become confident again and that's what brings form

Also, he has been there, seen it and got the T-shirt.

by welshboii15 Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:36 pm

Well its that as well. The big thing about Kearney is that he's as good as the other two when his form isn't the best so he's only going get better.

I really want to see Grant, Grey, Brown, Scott, Maitland and Hogg on tour that's 6 for sure In my eyes, with Hamilton, Murray, Ford, Laidlaw, Visser, Beattie, Rennie on stand by so there's going be a good group of Scottish players which is deserved

by doctornickolas Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:09 pm

RDW

Not true that Lydiate hasn't played for over a year. he broke his leg in playing against Edinburgh at the end of September and made his comeback against Ospreys in March.

by **RDW** Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:50 pm

doctornickolas wrote:RDW

Not true that Lydiate hasn't played for over a year. he broke his leg in playing against Edinburgh at the end of September and made his comeback against Ospreys in March.

Fair enough, but it still means he's only played 2 games all season though?

by Geordie Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:00 pm

I think that the Irish and English wingers were definitely below the Scottish and welsh wingers in the six nations,

Hardly surprising when one is so out of form and confidence and should really have been dropped and the other was a FB...who actually played very well.

Had he played FB...i think many would have been singing his chances for a Lions tour spot.

Why argue over FB's...take Halfpenny AND Hogg...

by doctornickolas Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:10 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
doctornickolas wrote:RDW

Not true that Lydiate hasn't played for over a year. he broke his leg in playing against Edinburgh at the end of September and made his comeback against Ospreys in March.

Fair enough, but it still means he's only played 2 games all season though?

yeah I agree. He was the 6 nations player of the year last year and if he had been fit and played more this season then he would be high up on the list for a spot. However with the squad being announced in a few weeks I am not sure he will have the opportunity to shine especially playing for the Dragons with no high profile games coming up.

by DrTreasure Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:23 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:If Scotland have more than four players in the squad I will be very surprised.Would any Scot get into the Welsh side?If you answer that question honestly and then factor in worthy English and Irish players anyone listing 11 possible Scottish tourists is on some seriously strong stuff!!!

I don't think there is a lot between the 4 home nations currently with regards individual players which was evidenced by what was a close six nations where anybody could beat anybody. It ultimately came down to tactics and psychological factors. I put my hands up and admit that Wales were excellent against England but to imply that every Welsh player is superior to their Scottish counterpart is wrong, in my opinion. The Lions should be decided based on the last 12 months of rugby, international, european and domestic.

Scotland should probably hope for 4 or 5 tourists, no more as our sides werent competitive enough in the HC and our tactics and selection limited our players ability to put their hands up for selection in the six nations.

This is not to change the course of the thread or start a debate and is merely my opinion after watching excessive amounts of rugby in the past 12 months but in response to the suggestions no Scots would get in the Welsh side; If i had to pick a side of only Welsh and Scottish players to play Australia then it would be;

1) Jones - Easy, he is world classbut Grant is excellent too
2) Macarthur - Should have been first choice for Scotland and offers a lot of vital work in the loose, prefer him to Hibbard
3) Jenkins - Don't feel Murray is the force he was and want to see Welsh get more game time
4) Gray - May be a little off form but he is still excellent and wouldnt leave him out
5) Evans - In good form and would make a good partnership with Gray
6) Brown - Quality 6 who does it all on the pitch at the highest level and balances the backrow well.
7) Tipuric - Edges it over Warburton on form though Rennie and Barclay can match them when at their best.
8) Faletau - Beattie offers more when at his best but don't feel he is there yet and Faletau in better form.
9) Phillips - Feel he offers more in big matches than Laidlaw despite his issues with service
10) Biggar - Position very much in development for Scotland
11) North - Offers a bit more than Visser
12) Dunbar - I feel both Scott and Dunbar offer more on balance than Roberts and am a big fan of Dunbar who has been excellent for Glasgow and should have been involved with Scotland a long time ago.
13) Davies - another area of development for Scotland with little to challenge here
14) Maitland - better all round player than Cuthbert, very intelligent defender and would offer more against the Aussies
15) Hogg - Not much between him and halfpenny as has been argued to death but as a full back myself who has a "kick nothing, run everything" approach I will pick him everytime as he is a delight to watch and more than competent in defence.

So 9 Welsh 6 Scots for me. Think some of the Scottish players would thrive under the better management, gameplan and team selection of other nations. The Lions could easily pick equal numbers from all nations and not lose anything. The performance of the Irish and English sides in Europe compared to the Scots and Welsh shows that selection shouldnt be based on one game in the six nations and many more factors will need to be considered.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"? Voltaire
(Disclaimer - my opinion may be that what you say is arrogant and ignorant and I will be much more appreciative of respectful, constructive comments)

by 123456789 Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:57 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
I think that the Irish and English wingers were definitely below the Scottish and welsh wingers in the six nations,

Hardly surprising when one is so out of form and confidence and should really have been dropped and the other was a FB...who actually played very well.

Had he played FB...i think many would have been singing his chances for a Lions tour spot.

Why argue over FB's...take Halfpenny AND Hogg...

I'd agree there Brown is a "Halfpenny style" full back without the goalkicking and perhaps a more elusive runner

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