Refereeing analysis of the 2011 RWC final.

There has been a lot of talking about referees and quite a bit of damnation for some of them.

I found this Video Clip on another site and it is an analysis (quite biased in my view) on the 2011 RWC, it is definitely Frnech produced as you can find the Rench version on youtube as well, and the lady commenting on this clip is certainly french from her accent.

Anyway it is not for the faint hreated or those with quezzy stomachs, so I suggest you get yourself a cup of coffee, or a few beers if you are that way inclined and sit back, the video clip is 30 minutes long.

Note that the analysis criticises Richie McCaw heavily and rips Craig Joubert apart, according to the analysis the Frnach missed out on 27 points potentially, but there is little if any shown of what the French did wrong.

It is propoganda that shows one side of a story, still rather interesting.

Still wasn't the worst refereeing performance of the tournament was it Biltong? (Conciliatory arm around the shoulder).

This type of over-analysis is not good for the game at all.

It annoys me that a SH ref was given the final given that it was in the SH and NZ were at home. Surely Owens would have been a fairer choice. I really do believe that some refs to favour some teams over others and Joubert did appear to favour NZ.

Ireland for example have a horrendous record in Wayne Barnes reffed matches. Coincidence? Equally some might say Walsh favours anyone playing England etc.

In modern rugby at each breakdown you could probably justifiably give a penalty to either side for a number of different infrindgements at any time. It did seem to me that Joubert chose to give them to NZ at key moments and not France.

I have it on very good authority that after 40 mins of Joubert ignoring his assistants in favour of NZ they both told him at half time that he was on his own. Joubert is a complete joke of ref, he was blatently biased in the England France match and in the Wales Scotland match this year. If you can't help his career then you may as well pack up and go home if Joubert is in charge.

Man is a disgrace

Ha Guns I'm sure Kiwis have as much of a gripe about Barnes as the Irish

NZ got stung by Joubert in the Brisbane test last year so it's not all one way traffic. But after Cardiff I'd have thought the French would have had known to shut up. They lived by the sword in 07, died by the sword in 11. I'm not saying it's right-just a case of don't hate the player (in this case official), hate the game.

What makes me sick is the whole bloody thing has turned into a lottery and people can seemingly legitimately gripe about every decision a ref makes in scrums or breakdowns. Who'd want to pick up a whistle after all this brouhaha? We want people to be encouraged to take up refereeing, and if all they get is slagged off and have new rules/interpretations shoved down their throats by a clueless IRB then there'll be less refs, and less quality coming through so we'll get an even crappier situation than the present.

You know what, I was looking forward to this video, I have been pretty noisy in my criticism of Joubert in the final, and for me it was one of the closest things I have ever seen to a 'cheating' official (not that I would ever call one a cheat)

However I am 1 minute 39 seconds in, and her poor attempts to mask her French accent has annoyed me, the terminology used is unnecesary and out of synch with the game, and the first incident she has highlighted as an early shove by NZ and France couldve been awarded a kick (does she mean free kick as it was mentioned by the quoted rule, or is she leaving it out to hint at a penalty shot?)

Firstly there is no attempt at a bind by the French, and at the point of contact the props hand is still on the knee, also the opposing side of the scrum has clearly not taken the hit correctly and the 2nd rows footwork is moving sideways?? How do NZ react to this without the risk of going down or being penalised??

So my French friend you are 100% wrong on your first point!! This may be a long 30 minutes...

Scrum number 2...

She has a point about Franks, but the law does state intentional, he looks like he's lost his footing and she also say 'Franks looses his footing' meaning unintentional!!!

Then bemoaning a linesman who is stood a minimum 35m away from the scrum???

After seeing the replay I would reset or ping Woodcock for no bind, so she is wrong about her analysis IMHO but right about the outcome.

Really bemoaning the Read lineout take...?

hahaha 'Dussatoir is clearly playing the ball, to which knownuu has to let go'

Firstly love it's Nonu, and Dus clearly has one hand on the floor and a knee on Nonu, but as it's only for half a 2nd neither deserve to be penalised and neither were!

Wait till you hear how she pronounces Cowan.

hahaha

Mahhaaaa Knownuu!!!

Steffan Dooonall!!!

She also promounces the French players with impeccable french promounciation hahaha.


That was very difficult to watch though, and those amazing decisions by Joubert, and non decisions are not getting easier to see. The rush of blood, and the sheer dispair for the game I had on that day came back in part.

I generally dislike the French attitude, accent and their performance throughout that WC, I don't think they deserved to be in the final at all, but my lord they deserved to win it at a canter!!!

This video is to sportsmanship what Joubert is to rugby!

promounciation

My typing is getting so bad!!!

Interesting that she didnt talk us through the TV3 footage showing the eye gouge.

The French hate being beaten by the ABs...Cant wait for June to roll around.

It does not paint a very good picture of Craig Joubert does it?

It just shows how much Richie Mcaw gets away with. Not just him though, most of the All Blacks . Get away with far more than any other player/team.

I always thought he was a fair REF to be honest. I guess this means or should mean that he will not get the Final game of 2015 RUGBY WORLD CUP?

majesticimperialman wrote:It does not paint a very good picture of Craig Joubert does it?

It just shows how much Richie Mcaw gets away with. Not just him though, most of the All Blacks . Get away with far more than any other player/team.

I always thought he was a fair REF to be honest. I guess this means or should mean that he will not get the Final game of 2015 RUGBY WORLD CUP?

He deserves a darn good eye gouging doesnt he? that'll teach him...

aucklandlaurie wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:It does not paint a very good picture of Craig Joubert does it?

It just shows how much Richie Mcaw gets away with. Not just him though, most of the All Blacks . Get away with far more than any other player/team.

I always thought he was a fair REF to be honest. I guess this means or should mean that he will not get the Final game of 2015 RUGBY WORLD CUP?

He deserves a darn good eye gouging doesnt he? that'll teach him...

Come on Laurie, he never said that.

Thats exactly how I read it.

It just shows how much Richie Mcaw gets away with.

Which part of that sentence suggests eye gouge?

Eye'll have to have another look...

Biltong wrote:

It just shows how much Richie Mcaw gets away with.

Which part of that sentence suggests eye gouge?

Biltong are you trying to suggest that the bad temperted little Froggies didnt try to eye gouge Richie Mc Caw? What Maj is suggesting is that McCaw (and All Black players) deserves everything they get.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Biltong wrote:

It just shows how much Richie Mcaw gets away with.

Which part of that sentence suggests eye gouge?

Biltong are you trying to suggest that the bad temperted little Froggies didnt try to eye gouge Richie Mc Caw? What Maj is suggesting is that McCaw (and All Black players) deserves everything they get.

Two totally seperate issues Laurie.

The French gouge nobody is denying, in fact can't think of one person who condoned it.

What MAj might just be suggesting is that the All Blacks should be penalised more.
Or maybe he just meant what he said, they get away with more.

Disagree Biltong, the eye gouge incident was just as much a part of the WC final as any other incident in the other 79 minutes.

Have to say that I disagree with many of the comments in the video. As has been pointed out many times the decisions were consistent with Jouberts refereeing throughout that season and this was clearly what the IRB were after and he delivered.

The French should have been no where near that final and frankly they have benefited from more poor refereeing displays in world cups than anyone else so those in glass houses shouldn't cast stones.

Don't they remember they lost two pool games and were only in the final because of the worst call in the tournament! To red card Warburton for an innocuous tackle on the undersized and overacting French half.

typical French arrogance to blame everyone else except themselves for thei failures.

Auckland

Not sure i read that anyone is suggesting eye gouging is acceptable.

In the world cup the NZ team were the best by a mile up until the final

The French were poor and scraped though

I have to say that the final was one of the most painful performances to watch, as I felt NZ let the occassion get to them.

Joubert was a disgrace and from that one performance, should never be allowed to ref again - ever - he was so one sided that it was embarrassing and totally determined who won the match

And this is from A Scotsman who wanted you guys to win

GloriousEmpire wrote:Have to say that I disagree with many of the comments in the video. As has been pointed out many times the decisions were consistent with Jouberts refereeing throughout that season and this was clearly what the IRB were after and he delivered.

The French should have been no where near that final and frankly they have benefited from more poor refereeing displays in world cups than anyone else so those in glass houses shouldn't cast stones.

Don't they remember they lost two pool games and were only in the final because of the worst call in the tournament! To red card Warburton for an innocuous tackle on the undersized and overacting French half.

typical French arrogance to blame everyone else except themselves for thei failures.

Don't start that again - it was a red according to the laws

Riskysports wrote:Auckland

Not sure i read that anyone is suggesting eye gouging is acceptable.

In the world cup the NZ team were the best by a mile up until the final

The French were poor and scraped though

I have to say that the final was one of the most painful performances to watch, as I felt NZ let the occassion get to them.

Joubert was a disgrace and from that one performance, should never be allowed to ref again - ever - he was so one sided that it was embarrassing and totally determined who won the match

And this is from A Scotsman who wanted you guys to win

+1

I went into the final feeling robbed of the occasion from the semi where France somehow managed to last out a great 14 man performance from Wales, I didn't like the way the French played in the groups, I didn't think they were up to anything other than survival in most games, however buy the 65tgh minute there was only one team I wanted to win, the underdogs to get one over on Joubert and his 'NZ must win at all costs' attitude, by the 80th minute I wanted to lynch him for what he did to the sport!!!

NZ were the better team for the 12 months previous, they were the form team in the tournament, they were my pick to win it, they were huge favourites and they were at home... yet they still deserved to lose that last game, and if it were not for Joubert they would have!!

Riskysports wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Have to say that I disagree with many of the comments in the video. As has been pointed out many times the decisions were consistent with Jouberts refereeing throughout that season and this was clearly what the IRB were after and he delivered.

The French should have been no where near that final and frankly they have benefited from more poor refereeing displays in world cups than anyone else so those in glass houses shouldn't cast stones.

Don't they remember they lost two pool games and were only in the final because of the worst call in the tournament! To red card Warburton for an innocuous tackle on the undersized and overacting French half.

typical French arrogance to blame everyone else except themselves for thei failures.

Don't start that again - it was a red according to the laws since

I notice that the video doesn't mention that France's try in the final was a result of being off side at the preceding ruck. Interestingly myopic view of the game and speaks more about the bitter emptiness of retrospective justification of failure. Blame their selectors for messing around with the team for a decade as they lacked the requisit cohesion under pressure to put together the killer blow.

Biltong wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Biltong wrote:

It just shows how much Richie Mcaw gets away with.

Which part of that sentence suggests eye gouge?

Biltong are you trying to suggest that the bad temperted little Froggies didnt try to eye gouge Richie Mc Caw? What Maj is suggesting is that McCaw (and All Black players) deserves everything they get.

Two totally seperate issues Laurie.

The French gouge nobody is denying, in fact can't think of one person who condoned it.

What MAj might just be suggesting is that the All Blacks should be penalised more.
Or maybe he just meant what he said, they get away with more.

I think the gouge was a real sign of frustration from the French. Rougerie isnt a particularly dirty player but Im sure he was quite peed off that he was within a score of winning a WC final and yet they were completely reffed out of it. Either way its hard to tell if either McCaws kneeing Parra in the face or Rougeries gouge were intentional.

All I know is that Joubert appeared to favour NZ in most 50/50 calls and seldom penalised NZ in kickable positions.

Well the French did have two cracks at goal-and fluffed them. You can't say the same for the All Blacks in 07.

McCaw's in constant contact with refs to keep on top of what his team can get away with. Read his book. If you don't test the boundaries of what you get away with you're a mug as you don't know where the line in the sand is. The ABs are good enough to back themselves to adapt to a ref's calls most of the time-Cardiff being the obvious exception.

The 25-30 minutes from when Weepu kicked it to Trinh-Duc to the turnover were a 25-30 mins of a game where NZ had ascendancy over the rest and b played pretty much entirely between France's 40 and NZ's 22. Sure NZ were on the rails there but they weren't kicks you could throw over. Hence Trinh-Duc shanking his kick.

Rougerie I didn't feel sorry for at all due to the gouge. I felt for their loosies who were magnificent.

Who the hell puts on a debutant with five to go in a World Cup Final? And plays Parra at 10?

I feel the Warburton tackle was a red but agree the French had luck on their side as a number of referees wouldn't have had the cojones to send a skipper off in such a match.

NZ also now know (they should have anyway this is NZ) that they can beat a French side that is playing inspired rugby. That's a demoralising blow for Les Bleus as NZ now will be more confident and won't be as likely lose their heads.

disneychilly wrote:Well the French did have two cracks at goal-and fluffed them. You can't say the same for the All Blacks in 07.

McCaw's in constant contact with refs to keep on top of what his team can get away with. Read his book. If you don't test the boundaries of what you get away with you're a mug as you don't know where the line in the sand is. The ABs are good enough to back themselves to adapt to a ref's calls most of the time-Cardiff being the obvious exception.

The 25-30 minutes from when Weepu kicked it to Trinh-Duc to the turnover were a 25-30 mins of a game where NZ had ascendancy over the rest and b played pretty much entirely between France's 40 and NZ's 22. Sure NZ were on the rails there but they weren't kicks you could throw over. Hence Trinh-Duc shanking his kick.

Rougerie I didn't feel sorry for at all due to the gouge. I felt for their loosies who were magnificent.

Who the hell puts on a debutant with five to go in a World Cup Final? And plays Parra at 10?

I feel the Warburton tackle was a red but agree the French had luck on their side as a number of referees wouldn't have had the cojones to send a skipper off in such a match.

NZ also now know (they should have anyway this is NZ) that they can beat a French side that is playing inspired rugby. That's a demoralising blow for Les Bleus as NZ now will be more confident and won't be as likely lose their heads.

Lots of fair points alright. I think you will admit though if you had a choice you would have chosen a SH ref to a NH ref wouldnt you?

Parra at 10 was mind boggling alright when trinh Duc is clearly Frances best 10.

I don't really know about that Guns-sure there are some that annoy me but they're from both hemispheres. I'd be happy with Owens, Joubert (we've caught the rought end of his stick too), even Barnes whose approach I like and just felt he had a crap game and can improve on it. Dickinson and Clancy I don't really like but I'm either or really. I'd quite like to see NH refs handle Super Rugby games and vice versa so we get more empathy with how sides want to play the game in different areas.

Henry's comments in his book came across the same for me as this video. I agree Disney France missed two clear shots at goal and if those had gone over none of these comments would have been made and wed probably have a video from a nz perspective and how they were robbed. When its that close and it means that much you're bound to feel robbed and ponder on what might have been. What if we weren't sick in 95 what if the pass had been called forward. Who cares! Suck it up. You lost and the opposition scored more points than you. Deal with it and take it like a man.

None of this gifted crap or conspiracy shoite. No one likes a poor winner but no one gives a flying fudgicle about a whining loser. It's like these segments some countries have started on let's look at the dirty side of the nz play. Look hard enough and you'll find something to talk about for the opposition as well. But that won't suit your agenda. Well go have a big cry. Nz win a lot of their games but they do lose about 15 per cent. To both parties who don't recognize those facts deal with it and get your sullen arse off to the corner and out of my fn way.

I hope you fell better now Kia.

I feel great mate! Besides, anyone who saw the Scotland vs Wales match this 6N saw Joubert's worst performance. I'm not supporting the guy in any way. I think that was an atrocious game and the 2011 final had ugly aspects about it as well.

But crying over spilled milk doesn't get the milk back in your glass. It just adds pointless tears to the liquid mess on the floor.

Yep, the fact is rugby laws are to blame for all of this, the fact that it impacts tournaments of all types and the credibility of the results that can be questioned on a weekly basis for me at least puts rugby in its worst position since it turned professional.

Until the IRB bucks up and simplify laws where the players compete and are the ones influencing the results rather than referees (I am talking of these 50/50 games, close contest and a scrum penalty here, an atacking ruck penalty there), things won't progress.

Every weekend thus far in Super rugby there has been a match and sometimes two that could have gone either way , all dependant on how the referee felt in one moment in time.

Lot of the points she rises are just silly really. But there are defiitely a few mccaw incidents that were blatant cheating. But that's how it goes in the rucks, every team knows it. Every team gets caught once ina while so it all balances out really. I could sit here and drill mccaw about his actions but I would be a filthy hypocrite. One of my favourite players is Nathan Hines, who is now famous YouTube for his 3 man pin down and blocking techniques which earned clermont a HK semi final.

I don't deny that McCaw is a very smart cookie, he knows how to play the referee, but like I said the other day, rugby shouldn't come down to this.

It's easy to say the laws are a mess but some of those tests in SA in the days of black and white TV had plenty of controversry from the refs as well. Nothing has changed in that respect today. What I think we can do instead of changing the laws is introducing measures to make refereeing easier for the ref. That doesn't mean neceassarily changing the laws. How about putting a scrum specialist ref in for the scrums to assist the ref? How about introducing technology to help with forward passes or offside calls? How about allowing a team three times per match to question an adjudication? In short, how about a bit of innovation from the old farts in the IRB?

Kia, you don't need to change the laws, just look at which part of the ruck law as an example is open to too much interpretation.

when you have Player X, doing this and he beleives he is in the clear, player Z thinks he is wrong, and the referee thinks it is 50/50, then after the game a few trainee referees in Guateng sit and watch that video clip and can't come to a consensus, then you know that part of the law much be either erradicated or simplified.

Just simplify one thing in the ruck, hands on ball, and half the penalties disappear.

I wouldn't mind a joker coming on to referee the other side of the scrum to a ref. Also time out should be called until the ball leaves the scrum. If we can do that and reward dominance but not encourage teams to leave the ball in the scrum for an age waiting to milk penalties it'd be better.

Said it before will say it again. 7s cheat. Every team cheats. NZ is the best team so they are the biggest cheats. McCaw is the best player and one of the greatest ever-happens to play 7 so is the biggest cheat of all time. Bullsh*t. He's not Lance Armstrong or Barry Bonds. Plus if what we all want happened and it came down to black and white calls across the board with no room to interpret differently the All Blacks will still be f*cking awesome and McCaw will still be the King. Sorry Barry.

Joubert Barnes and Lawrence had reasons for calling 'those' games the way they did. Aside from missing one (f*cking) forward pass they could (and should probably) explain why they called what they did when. Though I read an interview with Barnes and he was going on about referees being in contact with coaches players and media to discuss calls in games etc...I'll bet he hasn't sat down over a pot of tea with Henry or McCaw just yet!

Agree totally with Biltong it's a travesty the game I love more than any other has such debilitating issues.

Just simplify one thing in the ruck, hands on ball, and half the penalties disappear.

Key word here I agree... simplify!!!

Let the attacking team ref their side of the ruck, the boot is becoming more and more used from what I see and not in real attempts to 'roll' too, fair play to them, if Mccaw dives on the wrong side on purpose the ref can skip to the defencive side and allow the attacking team to deal with him.

I'm not saying foul play exactly, but it only takes a boot here, an elbow drop there before players change their minds about forcing their way to the wrong side on purpose, it amazes me the protection the player who is offside, clearly got there through his own steam, and isn't making enough attempt to get away receives from refs!!!

Thank you bluesman. sanity prevails.

1 down, 6 814 456 432 to go.

hahaha

I used to love dealing with offside players at the rucks, it was a free shot IMHO, but then I was a kid when you could get away with it.

For all the French whinging though, and the kiwi deluded repost, there were still 4/5 key decisions in that game that gave NZ an edge, and I'm not talking about being given cart blanche at the ruck!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Just simplify one thing in the ruck, hands on ball, and half the penalties disappear.

Key word here I agree... simplify!!!

Let the attacking team ref their side of the ruck, the boot is becoming more and more used from what I see and not in real attempts to 'roll' too, fair play to them, if Mccaw dives on the wrong side on purpose the ref can skip to the defencive side and allow the attacking team to deal with him.

I'm not saying foul play exactly, but it only takes a boot here, an elbow drop there before players change their minds about forcing their way to the wrong side on purpose, it amazes me the protection the player who is offside, clearly got there through his own steam, and isn't making enough attempt to get away receives from refs!!!

Completely agree. Dan Cole springs to mind. Bring back the boot. Though not on the head or face.

The laws as is favour the best cheats.

Caveat for those wanting rucking back so that the Kiwis will be discouraged from so-called cheating: We're at the forefront of the movement.

Barnes in 2007 was worse than Joubert in 2011. Lawrence in that QF was too. Look NZ's struggles in the WC have been good for the tournament and the game as it's a lottery who wins and it provides a sub plot to keep things interesting. But as well as being the architects of our own demise on several occasions, we've had some rotten luck as well. So for those if you who were quite happy to beat us with the schadenfreude stick for the five times we've gone down and then come up with uproarious supposed righteous indignation due to 25 minutes of an 80 minute game being refereed with interpretations you don't agree with, I kindly would like to offer you a nice big cup of in your face to go with your afternoon biscuits.

By the way Bluesman that wasn't addressing you mate.

GunsGerms wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Just simplify one thing in the ruck, hands on ball, and half the penalties disappear.

Key word here I agree... simplify!!!

Let the attacking team ref their side of the ruck, the boot is becoming more and more used from what I see and not in real attempts to 'roll' too, fair play to them, if Mccaw dives on the wrong side on purpose the ref can skip to the defencive side and allow the attacking team to deal with him.

I'm not saying foul play exactly, but it only takes a boot here, an elbow drop there before players change their minds about forcing their way to the wrong side on purpose, it amazes me the protection the player who is offside, clearly got there through his own steam, and isn't making enough attempt to get away receives from refs!!!

Completely agree. Dan Cole springs to mind. Bring back the boot. Though not on the head or face.

The laws as is favour the best cheats.

Or ankle.