james hook going on the lions

First topic message reminder :

After watching warren gatlands interview on rugby club he's said to be taking 2 10s and a player that can play there and a number of other positions so does this mean James Hook is going

Madigan is a joy to watch over the last two seasons. The most entertaining player in the rabo for me. But he's only recently took on kicking duties for Leinster. He's only got 2 caps. It's a pivotal position and there are more experienced options for Gatland to pick. It's a year too soon for him. Can't wait to see how he does next year as Leinster's first choice outhalf. Hopefully he'll be included more in the Irish setup with a new coach.

I think Sexton is the best player. But is he as nailed on as people think? He hasn't played since the 2nd 6 Nations match. He's not playing today against Munster as he isn't fully recovered. Isn't he seriously running out of time to show he's fully fit and on top form?

Farrell vs Biggar is a very close call and as many have stated Biggar's lack of a Heineken semi to prove himself in could count against him. Similarly it could throw Wilkinson or Farrell in with an even better chance of traveling.

I think the truth in many of these arguments is that we simply don't have many good options at 10. In a Lions series you want at least a couple of 10's in good form with a fair few years international rugby behind them, when you look at our options we are lacking that:

Sexton meets that criteria.

Flood is experienced internationally but has been struggling for form for much of the season.

Farrell and Biggar are both playing pretty well but are both inexperienced internationally.

Wilko, ROG and even Stephen Jones have had good and bad moments this season and are hugely experienced but Wilko is retired from Internationals, Jones hasn't been selected for Wales and ROG struggled horribly in the 6N.

Madigan, Jackson and Burns have impressed a lot with their talent but are very inexperienced and as such inconsistent.

Hook is experienced internationally but has never held down the 10 spot. He's playing well at 10 for Perpignan but has lacked international game time this season.

Laidlaw had some good moments at 10 but is a SH and personally I'd take him as a 9 or not at all.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Reading threads like this, a part of me wants to see the Lions get absolutely smashed.

Cyril AKA HERSH's twin wants the lions to be smashed becausr it is going to be Welsh dominated and rightly so.

Not like the 2005 tour party of 794 Englishmen.

I think the squad should be Welsh dominated but don't think the Test team will be.

reallybored wrote:I think the squad should be Welsh dominated but don't think the Test team will be.

15. Halfpenny
14. Cuthbert
13. BOD
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Wilkinson
9. Phillips

The backline will be Welsh dominated.

Possibly Biggar instead or Wilkinson.
Possibly Bowe instead of North.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

reallybored wrote:I think the squad should be Welsh dominated but don't think the Test team will be.

15. Halfpenny
14. Cuthbert
13. BOD
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Wilkinson
9. Phillips

The backline will be Welsh dominated.

Possibly Biggar instead or Wilkinson.
Possibly Bowe instead of North.

Wouldn't be my backline but I wouldn't be surprised if that's what it looks like given how Gatland likes to play. If Bowe is fit I'd expect Gatland, Howley etc to pick him over Cuthbert with North at 11.

t1000advancedprototype - Do you feel Sexton won't have time to prove himself now given his injuries? If fit he's another I'd definitely expect to start.

If sexton is fit then im sire he has to tour he's by far the best 10 that was in the 6 nations but IMHO if wilko tours he's given the 10 shirt for me the guy is the best 10 we have

Cuthbert should be the first on the sheet, ahead of North.

welshboii15 wrote:If sexton is fit then im sire he has to tour he's by far the best 10 that was in the 6 nations but IMHO if wilko tours he's given the 10 shirt for me the guy is the best 10 we have

Welshboil15 I do agreee with you regards to Johnny Sexton, if, i repeat if, he is fit, then he should be on the plane and in the test team against Australia. However i do believe that he is still injured...If that is true, (still injured from the 6 nations) then he should not even be in the Mind of Warren Gatland for the Lions.

Who is the next best in the NH? I would say Farrel, but i dont think he as done that mutch too be considered toi be honest.

See I personally see Wilkinson as the best we have.
Sexton is the next best thing after that its Freddie burns but he hasn't got the experience so its down to Farrell and biggar with hook as the utility.

That's my opinion

Gatland names his squad next week

If Sexton hasn't recovered perhaps Gatland won't select him, that would be a shock

Then the FHs would be Farrell and Biggar with Laidlaw/Hook selected as a backup.

Dan Biggar is the most confident NH 10 I've seen since Wilko 2003. He rarely makes mistakes.

That chargedown vs Ireland could have destroyed him, but it didn't.

Wilkinson
Sexton
Farrell
Flood
Biggar

On ability - the problem is the first 2 may not be available. Gatland may then go Farrell, Biggar & possibly 12Ts or Hook.

Why won't Sexton be available thought he be back from injury in time

Sexton will be available from next week. He was held back this week as they didn't want to rush him back.

I don't understand this. Wales have done well with Jones, Priestland and now Biggar at the helm, I can honestly say i've never seen them do well with Hook playing there.

All he does is receive the ball step left, then right, then left, then right, then left, trip over his own feet, get tackled, panic and throw a blind pass. Now i've never played 10 but I don't remember that being what you want from your fly half.

Sexton and Farrel will tour. The third option could be any of many players but I'd go for Laidlaw.

yappysnap wrote:I don't understand this. Wales have done well with Jones, Priestland and now Biggar at the helm, I can honestly say i've never seen them do well with Hook playing there.

All he does is receive the ball step left, then right, then left, then right, then left, trip over his own feet, get tackled, panic and throw a blind pass. Now i've never played 10 but I don't remember that being what you want from your fly half.

Sexton and Farrel will tour. The third option could be any of many players but I'd go for Laidlaw.

2008? Grandslam?

Wasn't that Jones and Henson?

yappysnap wrote:Wasn't that Jones and Henson?

England vs. Wales 2007, MoM performance

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/6454287.stm

Wales vs England 2008

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7215056.stm

England vs. Wales 2010 - Hook steps Wilkinson as is he weren't there -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGlEF4_lxGI

enough?

yappysnap wrote:Wasn't that Jones and Henson?

Nope, Henson rarely played 10

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I don't understand this. Wales have done well with Jones, Priestland and now Biggar at the helm, I can honestly say i've never seen them do well with Hook playing there.

All he does is receive the ball step left, then right, then left, then right, then left, trip over his own feet, get tackled, panic and throw a blind pass. Now i've never played 10 but I don't remember that being what you want from your fly half.

Sexton and Farrel will tour. The third option could be any of many players but I'd go for Laidlaw.

2008? Grandslam?

Two things

1 That was 2008 that's FIVE YEARS AGO

2. I think you find that in the important games Ireland and the last game against France Hook played pretty dire, and if Hooky had been left on the pitch most believe you would not have won those two games. In the final game three missed pens, almost gifting France two tries one with his then "Signature Dish" headless chickening running and then I get turned over routine, and a charge down from a lack a daisycal attempt to clear his 22. Hook Started the match due to his perceived "more creative flair" but no one (outside of ospreylia or the cowboy hat fair weather 6Ns fans) was surprised when at 9-9 he was replaced by Stephen Jones with 35 mins left and not soon after Wellies introduction that you guys scored two tries both successfully converted and with two out of two pens he has a 100% accuracy stat, and Wales scored 20 points with only a solitary Dimitri Yachvilli pen as a reply.

By the way even though Hook played more minutes in the 2008 6Ns than Stephen Jones his points total was the same as Wellies at 44 points, not really the pivot to the 2008 Slam that some posters with their one liners like to say he was

I still think he is the one player than can cover most back positions and because of that might be on the plane

Gatland always played Henson 12 really rated him there

Hook is a cracking player, why haven't Wales given him more opportunities at fly-half?

Would have been great had he stayed at fly-half since coming on the scene, maybe gone to the Blues a few seasons back. Genuinely think he could have been one of the best in the business.

Henson was a world class inside centre, haven't seen as complete a player since IMO.

reallybored wrote:Hook is a cracking player, why haven't Wales given him more opportunities at fly-half?

Would have been great had he stayed at fly-half since coming on the scene, maybe gone to the Blues a few seasons back. Genuinely think he could have been one of the best in the business.

Henson was a world class inside centre, haven't seen as complete a player since IMO.

Simple answer to all these debates..

Hook is fantastic but Wales have even better players. We finally have real depth in many positions. International class.

10:
Biggar
Hook
Priestland
Jones (retiring unfortunately)

12:
Roberts
Williams
Beck
Hook
Henson

reallybored wrote:Hook is a cracking player, why haven't Wales given him more opportunities at fly-half?

Would have been great had he stayed at fly-half since coming on the scene, maybe gone to the Blues a few seasons back. Genuinely think he could have been one of the best in the business.

Henson was a world class inside centre, haven't seen as complete a player since IMO.

I think if you review the records in 2007/8 Ospreys and the Wales setup provided him with more game time than any other welsh 10, in that period he had more minutes than Jones/Robinson/Sweeney put combined. SO this perception that he Wales have mucked him about is nonsense, he has had more opportunities to secure the 10 slot than any other player that I can remember

He has got his wish and is now playing regular at 10 for a class side with world class players all around him at Perpignan and is still pretty young, so if he had this undoubted talent then its reasonable to expect that Gatland or Howley would have selected him.

How many test matches has Hook started at fly-half?

He's got 70 caps and I don't believe he's started more at fly-half than other positions.

I'd take Hook over any current Welsh fly-half every day of the week (the young chap at Scarlets looks quality though & I've heard good things about Patchell).

Would Hook be better at fly-half with more controlling scrum-half to take some of the pressure off, like Peel?

Peel and Hook - I didn't realise I owned a time machine that could combine 2005 and 2008

Hook can play 10, 12, 13, 15, but I'd only play him at 12 at the moment and the Lions have far better options there.

Hook will be in as he is the best utility player available.

Hook is one of a kind there's not another utility back any where as good as him, hooks quite quick as well so wouldn't be shocked if he put a solid shift on wing as well

Shall we bring Mat Tait as well? He was quality in 2007 and can cover a whole load of positions

t1000advancedprototype wrote:Cuthbert should be the first on the sheet, ahead of North.

I'd definitely hold North and Bowe ahead of him personally, maybe even Zebo. I just feel that with how good Australia's backs are at targeting a weak link in the defensive line that Cuthbert could be exposed quite easily. North would offer the same power on one wing and Bowe on the other has the best all round game of the lot I'd say.

I really hope those 4 are the wings that travel however as they would offer great competition for places and contrasting options. With Bowe/North capable of playing centre and Zebo FB they also offer much needed versatility for the mid week games which can be very important when trying to limit injuries and get everyone significant game time.

Wing - North, Bowe, Cuthbert, Zebo
Full back - Halfpenny, Kearney, Brown

The above collection would offer great options and versatility. Even then we still have Hogg who offers a good threat from the back, Maitland who's a very rounded option across the back three and Visser who offers a similar attacking threat to that of Cuthbert. Gilroy as well can tear a side apart and Jonny May is a huge talent who I wouldn't mind seeing sneak in as a bolter! If well utilised the back three could be a real weapon for us.

king_carlos.

I understand that you might have a passion for both Bowe, and Zebo.

I am sure that when they are both fully fit they are both the best in their positions...But i really dont see how they can be included in the Lions squad, due to the injuries and lack of game time they have had.

Like wise Kearney at full back? Although he is one of the best FB'S n the NH. Does his lack of game time through injury rule him out?

Zebo offers something different but im not sure he's got the experience and for someone who's job is a finish he isn't the greatest IMO Bowe, Cuthbert, North, visser and wade offer but this isn't me slatting him because the guy is quality

yappysnap wrote:Shall we bring Mat Tait as well? He was quality in 2007 and can cover a whole load of positions

Looked one of Tigers best players last weekend.

Sexton is a certainty.

I have never been convinced about Biggar, but he had a few good performances in the 6N's as did Farrell. I'm not really convinced by either of them. The home nations are not well placed for 10's right now - a few good youngsters but little established.

imo Hook should not tour - he's not good enough in any position and there are better options.

majesticimperialman wrote:king_carlos.

I understand that you might have a passion for both Bowe, and Zebo.

I am sure that when they are both fully fit they are both the best in their positions...But i really dont see how they can be included in the Lions squad, due to the injuries and lack of game time they have had.

Like wise Kearney at full back? Although he is one of the best FB'S n the NH. Does his lack of game time through injury rule him out?

Kearney played every match in the 6 nations. He will definitely tour, probably behind 1/2p.

Bowe is gifted. He is probably the most complete winger of all wingers available and his try scoring record for Ireland is outstanding. Cant see how he will be left out.

GunsGerms wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:king_carlos.

I understand that you might have a passion for both Bowe, and Zebo.

I am sure that when they are both fully fit they are both the best in their positions...But i really dont see how they can be included in the Lions squad, due to the injuries and lack of game time they have had.

Like wise Kearney at full back? Although he is one of the best FB'S n the NH. Does his lack of game time through injury rule him out?

Kearney played every match in the 6 nations. He will definitely tour, probably behind 1/2p.

Bowe is gifted. He is probably the most complete winger of all wingers available and his try scoring record for Ireland is outstanding. Cant see how he will be left out.

That was basically going to be my defence as well GG!

maj - Whilst I'm not one to pick players based on past performances rather than form, I do view some players as capable of adding so much to the squad that I would happily see them travel as long as they prove full fitness and look near their best upon return. Bowe would definitely fit into that category in my books.

In terms of the three guys you asked about they are all back playing now after varying spells on the sidelines and have shown up pretty well since their returns. Certainly none of them have looked out of depth or off the pace. Bowe in particular has to travel now he's fit IMO. When you look at all our options on the wing Bowe has the best all round game of the lot, he finishes anything put in front of him and importantly for a Lions tour he's is versatile and has lots of experience at all levels.

Kearney similarly offers a class option at the back, the ability to play wing if needed and lots of experience.

Zebo is more of an outside bet, with three wingers looking a step ahead of the rest (North, Bowe and Cuthbert) at the moment there's one more space there up for grabs and I think Zebo would just offer of different options to the other three. On hard grounds in Australia any of Zebo, Gilroy and Wade could be very dangerous options to have in the squad given their pace and quick feet though.

I'd take Maitland ahead of Gilroy, Wade or Zebo. Just looks a better rugby player.

king_carlos wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:king_carlos.

I understand that you might have a passion for both Bowe, and Zebo.

I am sure that when they are both fully fit they are both the best in their positions...But i really dont see how they can be included in the Lions squad, due to the injuries and lack of game time they have had.

Like wise Kearney at full back? Although he is one of the best FB'S n the NH. Does his lack of game time through injury rule him out?

Kearney played every match in the 6 nations. He will definitely tour, probably behind 1/2p.

Bowe is gifted. He is probably the most complete winger of all wingers available and his try scoring record for Ireland is outstanding. Cant see how he will be left out.

That was basically going to be my defence as well GG!

maj - Whilst I'm not one to pick players based on past performances rather than form, I do view some players as capable of adding so much to the squad that I would happily see them travel as long as they prove full fitness and look near their best upon return. Bowe would definitely fit into that category in my books.

In terms of the three guys you asked about they are all back playing now after varying spells on the sidelines and have shown up pretty well since their returns. Certainly none of them have looked out of depth or off the pace. Bowe in particular has to travel now he's fit IMO. When you look at all our options on the wing Bowe has the best all round game of the lot, he finishes anything put in front of him and importantly for a Lions tour he's is versatile and has lots of experience at all levels.

Kearney similarly offers a class option at the back, the ability to play wing if needed and lots of experience.

Zebo is more of an outside bet, with three wingers looking a step ahead of the rest (North, Bowe and Cuthbert) at the moment there's one more space there up for grabs and I think Zebo would just offer of different options to the other three. On hard grounds in Australia any of Zebo, Gilroy and Wade could be very dangerous options to have in the squad given their pace and quick feet though.

Given our options Bowe is the best 13 available IMO. He is a much better footballer with a better all around skill set than either JD or Tuillagi

dragonbreath wrote:
Given our options Bowe is the best 13 available IMO. He is a much better footballer with a better all around skill set than either JD or Tuillagi

Whilst Bowe's shown up well at 13 in the past, notably in the third Lions test 09, and could be very useful there in a tour game when trying to minimise injuries and get everyone significant game time I'd say our options at 13 are actually pretty good with BOD, JDv2 and Tuilagi all there.

Davies is actually a brilliant all round player I'd say - he's reasonably quick, very strong for his size and very clever in attack (he almost always beats the first man if given an inch). Add to him BOD's obvious talents and Tuilagi's great power I'd say we're pretty set there.

12.Davies 13.O'Driscoll would be my centres of choice at the moment. Both skillful players who are very capable of making a break themselves and will ensure that the ball gets to the wings. They would also allow our big runners such as North, O'Brien, Faletau and Healy to play off the centres as well as the half backs offering some variety in attack to get over the gainline. Those two would get the best out of those around them better than other partnerships I could see and wouldn't fall into the trap of trying to overpower the Aus backs which rarely works as they are very clever in defence.

Bowe,Zebo, Kearney will get plenty of game time before the end of the season - 4 or so games is enough.

In fact a break could be a bonus they will go there fresher but with enough games under their belt to be match sharpe

Bowe,Zebo, Kearney will get plenty of game time before the end of the season - 4 or so games is enough.

In fact a break could be a bonus they will go there fresher but with enough games under their belt to be match sharpe

Isn't life funny some times.

If he does go as the Utility back if that is indeed Gatlands decision in preference to a third 10, he does not have much competition. That being so, he may well end up with more game time for the Lions than he has had for Wales this year. If he goes his role would seem to be the backs bench player that will allow an extra forward alongside him.

There are very few (if any) others with Hooks ability/experience in playing across the backline at International level. He is not, as has been commented, the first choice in these positions but does play them at a good standard. He offers something different from Biggar and Farrell (whether you think that is good or bad in a matter of opinion) and in addition, I have always thought him an excellent 13, a position which I believe to be a weakness, in terms of basic skills, among the majority of the current international incumbants. He has the ability to step, has a gliding and deceptively fast outside break, often aided by a strong fend, and his distribution skills are far better than JD2 or Tuilagi.

He is a solid 12, but if he ends up at 15 then there must be a sniper in the crowd