Connacht v Ulster

First topic message reminder :

(15-9): J Payne, A Trimble, D Cave, S Olding, T Bowe, P Jackson, R Pienaar; (1-8): T Court, R Best (c), R Lutton, L Stevenson, D Tuohy, R Diack, C Henry, N Williams;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, C Black, J Afoa, J Muller, I Henderson, P Marshall, M Allen, P Nelson.
 

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11389.php
Connacht XV

Robbie Henshaw, Poolman, Eoin Griffin, Brian Murphy, Gavin Duffy (captain), Dan Parks, Kieran Marmion, Brett Wilkinson, Adrian Flavin, Ronan Loughney , Michael Swift, Mike McCarthy, Mick Kearney, John Muldoon,George Naoupu

Replacements:   Ethienne Reynecke, Rodney Ah You, JP Cooney, Andrew Browne, Mata Fifita, Paul O’Donohoe, Miah Nikora, Fetu’u Vainikolo

Apologies to Dodger as i know he posted this in the Dragons thread but thought a new topic would do it justice. Strong squad with only Luke Marshall still missing really.

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Doesn't say much for Bowe actually. In all his time he's still never managed to score a try against the lowest side in Pro12 - Zebre.

A blot on his career, I think

When he plays against them, he probably will

Cari wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Doesn't say much for Bowe actually. In all his time he's still never managed to score a try against the lowest side in Pro12 - Zebre.

A blot on his career, I think

Zebre haven't been around long enough yet Fly...give it time...

I must do more work on my tone of typing! That was just an ironic little joke, folks, based on the very fact of Zebre's newness. Carry on

rodders wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Agree with Rodders and with Mrs P on the forwards too but Marmion I thought was really excellant.

Neil ye auld fence sitting bollox ye!

Them splinters are murder Rodders

I think our first choice 10 and 12 are fixed for next season.

Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding. Olding has the brains to his game Marshall lacks right now, and the younger man is the better player. Luke Marshall better get used to sitting on the bench or switch to 13 because Olding is going nowhere. Olding has better footwork, just as good a passing and offloading game and is quicker but most crucially of all he's a better decision maker than Marshall. Marshall takes too much on himself, and whilst he has great distribution skills Olding just has that little bit extra in terms of the rugby brain- vision on the ball. So crucial for a 12. It's why Luke Marshall hasn't truly seen off Paddy Wallace yet, but Olding looks set to do just that.

Marshall has his defence and strength in contact and will be a fine 12, but he has it all to do in terms of forcing his way back into the Ulster team. Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding to become a partnership you'll be seeing a lot of.

Given that I'm a massive fan of Luke Marshall and rate him very highly, this is high praise.

I'm not so sure yet notch.

Olding has made everyone sit up and think though. He is the incumbent as well so until something changes then yes the shirt is his. A lot depends on Jacksons progress aswell and where the coaches see Olding fitting in.

I genuinely haven't a clue what will happen between Jackson, olding, Marshall, cave, farrell, a potential Bowe at 13 but it's nice headaches go have for a coach. We should (injury permitting) have an embarrassment of riches in the backs next season

Notch, I'm not sure I 100% agree with that analysis. I think Marshall's post Six Nations performances have clouded judgment on his performances- he was pretty outstanding in the run up to that. But essentially, yes. Olding is an outstanding footballer. It he was fom Munster we would have some fans, and we all know to whom I am referring, would be telling us how he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Strike that, the greatest thing since Oreo cones. Listen people, they are like Cornettos but Oreo. Half price at Tescos too. I ate six yesterday. I don't want to alarm anyone but it made me pretty amorous. That's the middle class way of saying horny. I should also point out that was for my wife, not the ice cream. But let's not lie here, if I could I would.

Now, what was I saying?

Oh yeah. Marshall had the skill set to be a 13. I think he might be better there in the long term. One key reason why he wasn't this season is bedside we had another outstanding talent there who is no longer with us. Then after that awful event Anscombe and particularly Humphreys felt it was too much to ask him to learn a new position and essentially replace one of his best friends in the squad. Next season we may well see him tried at 13 more.

On another note, I wonder if Geoff has any information on another little rumour I was fed while half drunk after golf on Saturday. Pienaar is probably finished after the World Cup and Humphreys has already began very tentative talks about Marmion, possible for 2014/5 season, but certainly after the World Cup. Leinster are also making serious moves about him already for the same time frame.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Notch, I'm not sure I 100% agree with that analysis. I think Marshall's post Six Nations performances have clouded judgment on his performances- he was pretty outstanding in the run up to that. But essentially, yes. Olding is an outstanding footballer. It he was fom Munster we would have some fans, and we all know to whom I am referring, would be telling us how he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Strike that, the greatest thing since Oreo cones. Listen people, they are like Cornettos but Oreo. Half price at Tescos too. I ate six yesterday. I don't want to alarm anyone but it made me pretty amorous. That's the middle class way of saying horny. I should also point out that was for my wife, not the ice cream. But let's not lie here, if I could I would.

Now, what was I saying?

I concur!

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Oh yeah. Marshall had the skill set to be a 13. I think he might be better there in the long term. One key reason why he wasn't this season is bedside we had another outstanding talent there who is no longer with us. Then after that awful event Anscombe and particularly Humphreys felt it was too much to ask him to learn a new position and essentially replace one of his best friends in the squad. Next season we may well see him tried at 13 more.

On another note, I wonder if Geoff has any information on another little rumour I was fed while half drunk after golf on Saturday. Pienaar is probably finished after the World Cup and Humphreys has already began very tentative talks about Marmion, possible for 2014/5 season, but certainly after the World Cup. Leinster are also making serious moves about him already for the same time frame.

I've obviously heard him mentioned a fair bit, but I must admit, i cannot testify to his ability. I guess I havnt been paying attention. He is the next big young SH prospect I assume? I'd personally like to see Heaney get more opportunity. He has rather impressed me from what I've seen.

Were you watching on Friday night Clive or was the TV coverage not entirely geared enough to your personal enjoyment for you to be able to fully appreciate the match?



Marmion was the very handy scrum half in green.

I hope this comes across as the jokey wee comment it let my keyboard as, and not a nasty or snide remark!

Now, which is the best emoticon to convey gentle fun poking rather than nasty mockery?

MrsP wrote:Were you watching on Friday night Clive or was the TV coverage not entirely geared enough to your personal enjoyment for you to be able to fully appreciate the match?



Marmion was the very handy scrum half in green.

I try not to base my judgement on one single match.

Marmion, a fantastic prospect, when reading reports on matches his name is always linked to a glowing report and hence while not having seen him play to often I rate him highly.

As for olding, lets not get carried away, we were given Marshall all the same Praise when he came along, and he's won Ireland caps and impressed in th e6 nations, hes not yesterdays man already and digarded as the new shiny one comes along.

I do worry that Connacht may well become a developemt province, as the other provices have to have mostly IQ players, if they need to recuit someone outside the acamady, Connacht will be the first place they look. IRFU do have to put something in to protect them. When I've suggested leinster may be intrested in him, as thier 2 scrum halves are getting on a bit, they've said they have an exciting prospect coming through, (can't remember his name though).

However Marmion is not a Connacht Native so can see him being tempted away, the Connacht born players like Henshaw and Gruiffen I hope stay with the Province.

Did anyone notice that if Connacht had Won this game that they would have had a chance of overtaking Munster in the Leaugue.

Now that would have been intresting Connacht in H-cup next year and Munster not.

McGraths the lad your thinking of and he is a good prospect but Marmion started ahead of him for the under 20s last year.

Wheres Marmion from? He came through the exiles didnt he?

Born in Wales to Irish parents, his father and grandfather both hail from Loughrea, County Galway. He has been capped at Under-18, Under-19 and Under-20 level by Ireland.

I don't think the provinicial tie would be strong enough, to stay at Connacht, if Ulster or Leinster come calling.

Feic he's Welsh! Get him capped asap ....

Standulstermen wrote:I'm not so sure yet notch.

Olding has made everyone sit up and think though. He is the incumbent as well so until something changes then yes the shirt is his. A lot depends on Jacksons progress aswell and where the coaches see Olding fitting in.

I genuinely haven't a clue what will happen between Jackson, olding, Marshall, cave, farrell, a potential Bowe at 13 but it's nice headaches go have for a coach. We should (injury permitting) have an embarrassment of riches in the backs next season

If I'm being completely honest, I think Paddy Jackson is going to be a world class 10. Whenever people criticise him for anything other than goal kicking, which obviously is still a work in progress, I generally use that as a filter for who does and doesn't know their beans. The only thing I'd criticise him for is he could improve his running game.

I think Jackson was brilliant against Connacht.

I think his running game will come on as he develops and hopefully we will see more of it next season. He isn't bulletproof though. We just have to wait and see with all the youngsters but the experience Jackson has already had will stand to him

It's his option taking and distribution that is already so, so good. He really makes the backline sing. Having the pace and skill of Olding outside him has been utterly mouth watering to watch.

Notch I think people are misguided over Jackson. It reminds me of Mehrtens and Carlos Spenser. Lets face it, one of those guys was ten times the better footballer with better skills, more attacking intent than the other. Yet Mehrtens had 70 odd caps and a phenomenal scoring record. When I look at Jackson and Madigan let's face it, Madigan is a better footballer. Maybe he might even be a better player full stop. But that doesn't mean he will be a better out half.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Notch I think people are misguided over Jackson. It reminds me of Mehrtens and Carlos Spenser. Lets face it, one of those guys was ten times the better footballer with better skills, more attacking intent than the other. Yet Mehrtens had 70 odd caps and a phenomenal scoring record. When I look at Jackson and Madigan let's face it, Madigan is a better footballer. Maybe he might even be a better player full stop. But that doesn't mean he will be a better out half.

Not sure about that. Flashier player for sure, but would you seriously be happy to swap Madigan for Jackson? I wouldn't. Last time they played against each other Jackson was the better player. Truth is, Jackson makes the guys around him look very, very good. Madigan, also a brilliant player make himself look good and creates a lot for the guys around him as well. Jackson is less flash but the better 10. His distribution and option taking are already incredibly good.

No I wouldn't either Notch. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with that post. Some fans seem to equate being flashy with being the best in that position. Well I don't think that really cuts it at international level, and the professional era is filled with flashy 10s who are too flaky, too hit and miss, too inconsistent to be truly world class. Spenser, Michalak and Cooper immediately spring to mind.

I think Madigan is a more exciting and flashy player. I think he is a better footballer and might even be a better player. However I think Jackson is and will be a better out half than him.

MrsP wrote:Were you watching on Friday night Clive or was the TV coverage not entirely geared enough to your personal enjoyment for you to be able to fully appreciate the match?



Marmion was the very handy scrum half in green.

I hope this comes across as the jokey wee comment it let my keyboard as, and not a nasty or snide remark!

Now, which is the best emoticon to convey gentle fun poking rather than nasty mockery?

Thanks for clearing that up MrsP. I had questioned it!

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:No I wouldn't either Notch. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with that post. Some fans seem to equate being flashy with being the best in that position. Well I don't think that really cuts it at international level, and the professional era is filled with flashy 10s who are too flaky, too hit and miss, too inconsistent to be truly world class. Spenser, Michalak and Cooper immediately spring to mind.

I think Madigan is a more exciting and flashy player. I think he is a better footballer and might even be a better player. However I think Jackson is and will be a better out half than him.

We all see what we see from wherever we happen to be looking I suppose. Just on the Madigan being the flashy player as distinct from being a solid 'best in that position' 10. Madigan has been doing the solid stuff too...in amongst the darting breaks and zippy confidence. You might say he's been one of, if not The, central figure in dragging Leinster's season back from the mediocre state it was in mid season. Could Ulster claim that Jackson had the same impact this season as second choice 10?

Madigan is top points scorer in Pro12 so far, and top marksman (hitting what he aims at more than others);
6 tries, 23 conversions, 36 penalties.

Always a little more fearful of a flashy player, yes. They can often blow hot and cold, and there is perhaps more of a risk that Madigan might fall off the solid more than Jackson is likely to hop on board the 'flashy'.

But for now, Madigan is both flashy (entertaining and exciting) and yet also very stable (doing the ground work of keeping his team ticking over when needs be). It's good though, to have 10s with different qualities. Schmidt will like the headache!!!! - maybe.

Fly, agreed. I like Madigan. A lot. I mean his hair, well he should sort that out before any improvements to his game. But he has serious potential. Not just potential in the future because he is playing at a good standard now. He has obviously things to work at on his game but so does Jackson. This isn't an Ulster v Leinster thing. I would have picked Madigan during the Six Nations and if both are on Irish duty this summer then I would select him then too. Fundamentally though I think Jackson, three years younger than Madigan, has the potential to be a better outhalf than Madigan. It is great that those two plus Olding (probably a 12) and Hanrahan (if he survives earning his battle scars in AIL) will give Schmidt something to really think about in he future. Now all we need are tight heads, second rows, 9s and 13s and we are world beaters.

Tbh, I think we're in danger of getting very reductive and stereotyping both players. Madigan is more than a 'flashy' 10 and Jackson has plenty of flair himself.

Jackson would have had more impact on Ulsters season than Madigan for Leinster, yes, because he's been in situ since day one. Since Christmas its a lot more open to debate. Jackson would still be my pick though, just for the way he runs the team. He is the on pitch leader Ulster need, he's the guy calling/devising the plays making everyone else around him look good. He's a more understated style than Madigan as he tends to look to bring other players into the game as opposed to taking things on himself. Generally leads to people who are just following the ball to understate how massive his contribution is. But definitely Jackson is in with Afoa and Muller as one of our three essential players.

I think now Pienaar is no longer as essential to Ulster and we can definitely survive his absence or departure due to having another top class organiser/playmaker in the backs.

I'd still have Madigan ahead of Jackson, slightly. Before the 6 nations I thought Madigan should be 2nd choice behind Sexton.

However Ian is 24 and played 39+23 games in the League for Leinster, Jackson is 21 and played 19+6 leauge games for Ulster.

So while I have Madigan as currently the slightly better player, he is also further down the learning curve. We all accept that its a steep learning curve and Jackson will have learnt more from this year than Madigan, and will catch him up soon in terms of experience.

I think Madigan is considerbly ahead of Jackson, who really hasn't kicked on from a great start to the season.

Jackson has all the skills, fantastic hands, good kicker, strong defence and is probably the best distrubutor of the ball in the country.

The one big drawback for me is that he doesn't impose himself on games or come up with the big plays when you need him too. Mentally he is just missing that mental edge which top, top players have. He seems too placid and has a bit of Paddy Wallace syndrom about him.

He tends to just ghost through games without ever really imposing himself. Hopefully that will improve with time but he doesn't have the edge to his game or drive that Sexton and Madigan do just now. Olding could be the best of the lot.

That said Jackson's a far better player at 20 than ROG was at 25.

Having watched both players very closely, I adore watching Madigan play, and I agree with Fly, he has turned from a flashy player to a brilliant player who happens to do flashy things sometimes. Jackson is more then capabl, was delighted to see him in green and thought he had a solid 6 nations and did alot of things right. And as others on here have said, he may well have a higher "floor" then Madigan. But this is what I want to see; Madigan and Murray. After disappointing me alot in the last 18 months, Murray is starting to show signs he has the attitude and ability (if not the pass quite yet) to be a scrum half general. Splitting game management between Murray and Madigan I think could be an amazing combination for Ireland.

clivemcl wrote:

MrsP wrote:Were you watching on Friday night Clive or was the TV coverage not entirely geared enough to your personal enjoyment for you to be able to fully appreciate the match?



Marmion was the very handy scrum half in green.

I hope this comes across as the jokey wee comment it let my keyboard as, and not a nasty or snide remark!

Now, which is the best emoticon to convey gentle fun poking rather than nasty mockery?

Thanks for clearing that up MrsP. I had questioned it!

Genuinely typed with a smile, not a sneer Clive!

rodders wrote:The one big drawback for me is that he doesn't impose himself on games or come up with the big plays when you need him too. Mentally he is just missing that mental edge which top, top players have. He seems too placid and has a bit of Paddy Wallace syndrom about him.

Nah, thats just his game. He's making everyone else look good by doing the basics so, so well. He's the guy calling the shots in the backline in terms of moves and tactics, both during games and in the week. With a creative 12 and 13 outside him and a kicking 9 inside he has a great appreciation of what he needs to do which is to be the General. Calls the plays, puts guys in space and pretty much never chooses the wrong option. The fact first Luke Marshall and second Stuart Olding have been the form 12s in Irish Rugby is a testament to just how much time and space Jackson is creating for them to shine. The thing with Ulster is we have so many fine soloists in the backline all we need is the conductor to get them all on the same page and that man has been Paddy Jackson. I've been surprised and happy at just how quickly he's grown into the role. His organisation of the men outside him is top class.

Leinster have had a lot of turnover in the centres this season with BOD and D'Arcy in and out of the team and the way they play and their attack is structured requires Madigan/Sexton to run a lot more often. Ulster rarely tend to attack in the 10 channel whereas Leinster do, they run a lot of loop moves off 10 etc. So the two lads are playing different roles. I would like to see Jackson run it a bit more in seasons to come because with Schmidt coming into Ireland he's going to have to play that way too.

Notch wrote: The fact first Luke Marshall and second Stuart Olding have been the form 12s in Irish Rugby is a testament to just how much time and space Jackson is creating for them to shine.

That's a good point and I agree. Paddy's distribution and vision are top class and he makes those outside him look good no doubt about it.

My only (slight) criticism is that I can't think of many real dominant performances from him, games where he has stamped his authority on. That's the next level for him and he needs to show he can take control of games like Sexton, ROG, Madigan do or have done.

He has everything else.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote: The fact first Luke Marshall and second Stuart Olding have been the form 12s in Irish Rugby is a testament to just how much time and space Jackson is creating for them to shine.

That's a good point and I agree. Paddy's distribution and vision are top class and he makes those outside him look good no doubt about it.

My only (slight) criticism is that I can't think of many real dominant performances from him, games where he has stamped his authority on. That's the next level for him and he needs to show he can take control of games like Sexton, ROG, Madigan do or have done.

He has everything else.

Would you agree that even on his better performances, you tend to see him do at least something wrong? He could have an excellent game bar a ridiculous out on the full kick or miss an easy penalty. Madigan by comparison has had games where he has literally been on fire in every aspect, not putting a single foot wrong.

In fairness though madigan has been on fire and I love the little fecker, he always has a peno miss touch or something every game. you can set your watch by it

There's nothing like a little chip/chase from your own ingoal area to get the fans' adrenalin rushing - and wondering if he has just gone "mad again"! Madigan will have the responsibility of being first choice playmaker at Leinster next season and undoubtedly he will learn to balance his natural attacking game with a more judicious defensive game. That is his only shortcoming and must be why Kidney didn't pick him ahead of Jackson - IM was just too far removed from Deccie's comfort zone.

Jackson was thrown in the Atlantic not just the deep end. Kidney shouldn't have picked him as it was far too soon for a guy adjusting to pro rugby from school. It is incredible to hear that he has the confidence to tell Muller the plays, while still learning his own game on the pitch - so maybe it's not that big a wonder that he has been capped so young. Next season will be his first proper season in my eyes as he will have proper competition for the shirt and won't have to play games injured.

clivemcl wrote:

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote: The fact first Luke Marshall and second Stuart Olding have been the form 12s in Irish Rugby is a testament to just how much time and space Jackson is creating for them to shine.

That's a good point and I agree. Paddy's distribution and vision are top class and he makes those outside him look good no doubt about it.

My only (slight) criticism is that I can't think of many real dominant performances from him, games where he has stamped his authority on. That's the next level for him and he needs to show he can take control of games like Sexton, ROG, Madigan do or have done.

He has everything else.

Would you agree that even on his better performances, you tend to see him do at least something wrong? He could have an excellent game bar a ridiculous out on the full kick or miss an easy penalty. Madigan by comparison has had games where he has literally been on fire in every aspect, not putting a single foot wrong.

I was just thinking ho rarely he does something wrong actually, bar goal kicking. With Ulster, not so much with Ireland- but you'd expect a few hiccups in the first few caps.