England wingers- past and present

First topic message reminder :

So I was reading the thread about Wade, and it made me think about who England's best wingers have been. Those I remember, and those before. I suppose that also brings up the topic of the worst, too...

Names in the frame for the best list?

Ashton (current #1 - rightly or wrongly)
Cohen
Billy Whizz
Josh Lewsey
Dan Luger
Rory Underwood

I'm sure there must be many, many who I can't call to mind right now. David Duckham is another, but I am too young to have seen him play (other than in brief YouTube clips). I notice Billy Whizz and Josh Lewsey were both "back 3" players, which Lancaster seems to favour. Shame we don't have them now!

In the worst list? Phil Cristophers? Any advance on that?

funnyExiledScot wrote:On Small vs Bentley, in actual fact my recollection is that Small rather worryingly skipped past Bentley on one occasion on the tour, and I think it's that memory that led to McGeechan going for Tait in the tests, a more solid and astute defender.

I liked Bentley, great character, but not a top quality international winger. There are a number of better players on the above list.

Yup, Geech was worried about Bentleys defence so left him out of the first test.

Joubert handed Bentley off easily in the second test too for a Bok try.

LondonTiger wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Ian hunter was an early iteration of Josh Lewsey but suffered badly from injuries.

Once dislocated his shoulder when making a tackle. His thumb got caught in the other guys pocket.

Aparently he was rediculously fit...hit levels of Olympic athletes etc.

I saw Duckham play when I was a boy - he had fantastic balance. Robinson was excellent but I think Underwood was the best English wing I've seen.

According to Bill McLaren Duckham could side step three men in a phone box, or something like that anyway.

LondonTiger wrote:Once dislocated his shoulder when making a tackle. His thumb got caught in the other guys pocket.

Hunter was overlooked by England but still got selected for the 1993 Lions. I remember seeing him play a great Barbarian's match with Cardiff's Mike Hall alongside at full back. They looked like they were made to play together but it wasn't to be for that year's Lions. If he had stayed fit, we'd all know more about him today.

On another matter...

It's a funny thing about British sports. When Victor Ubogu, Chris Oti, Andrew Harriman and Steve Ojomoh were all competing for England rugby caps, we had the likes of Phil Defreitas, Devon Malcolm, Norman Cowans, Chris Lewis etc on the cricket side.

Somehow, both sports ended up moving white again in England.

Oti and Harriman are a bit like Monye and Varndell today. It's terrible of me to raise the race factor but I'm struck by the way they are more likely to be regarded as one-trick ponies than their less-dark equivalents. Both Christian Wade and Kyle Eastmond are frequently spoken of as "the next Jason Robinson" but I'm sure race helps that label stick. Why is no white English player called "the next Jason Robinson"?

Surely someone else on here remembers Peter Jackson of Coventry and England (20 caps). On the 1959 Lions tour of New Zealand he scored 16 tries in 14 games which included 4 tests, described by one NZ paper as "the zaniest runner of all time". For zany read elusive - an amazing player, now all but forgotten.

LondonTiger wrote:Everyone to have featured on the Wing for England since 1980:

Name	Years	Caps at Wing	Starts	Replacement	Points when a winger	Tries
R Underwood	1984-1996	85	85	0	210	49
BC Cohen	2000-2006	56	54	2	155	31
MJ Cueto	2004-2011	51	51	0	100	20
AS Healey	1997-2002	40	31	9	70	14
CJ Ashton	2010-2013	34	34	0	85	17
DD Luger	1998-2003	33	32	1	110	22
T Underwood	1992-1998	27	27	0	65	13
J Carleton	1980-1984	25	25	0	28	7
OJ Lewsey	2003-2007	24	23	1	45	9
PH Sackey	2006-2009	22	21	1	55	11
JT Robinson	2001-2007	20	17	3	60	12
ME Harrison	1985-1988	15	15	0	32	8
MAC Slemen	1980-1984	15	15	0	20	5
CC Oti	1988-1991	13	13	0	32	8
UCC Monye	2008-2012	12	12	0	10	2
JM Sleightholme	1996-1997	12	12	0	20	4
D Strettle	2007-2012	12	11	1	5	1
DL Rees	1997-1999	11	10	1	15	3
MN Brown	2012-2013	10	7	3	0	0
MJM Tait	2006-2009	10	1	9	10	2
MA Banahan	2009-2011	9	7	2	15	3
SJ Halliday	1989-1992	9	8	1	4	1
NJ Heslop	1990-1991	9	9	0	12	3
ST Smith	1985-1986	9	9	0	12	3
IR Balshaw	2000-2007	8	4	4	20	4
TRG Stimpson	1997-2002	7	3	4	18	0
AA Adebayo	1996-1998	6	6	0	10	2
DA Armitage	2010-2011	6	3	3	10	2
MD Bailey	1984-1990	6	6	0	4	1
ND Beal	1997-1999	6	3	3	5	1
IG Hunter	1992-1995	6	6	0	15	3
JD Simpson-Daniel	2002-2007	6	5	1	10	2
AH Swift	1981-1984	6	6	0	0	0
PR de Glanville	1992-1999	5	0	5	0	0
LPI Vainikolo	2008-2008	5	4	1	0	0
TMD Voyce	2004-2006	5	4	1	15	3
J Bentley	1988-1997	4	4	0	4	1
TW Varndell	2005-2008	4	3	1	15	3
DJ Hipkiss	2007-2008	3	0	3	0	0
PC Sampson	1998-2001	3	3	0	0	0
C Sharples	2012-2012	3	3	0	10	2
ME Stephenson	2001-2001	3	3	0	0	0
NC Stringer	1982-1984	3	0	3	0	0
SP Brown	1998-1998	2	2	0	0	0
MJ Catt	1998-2003	2	1	1	5	1
PD Christophers	2002-2002	2	2	0	5	1
BJ Evans	1988-1988	2	2	0	0	0
BJ Foden	2012-2012	2	2	0	5	1
ACT Gomarsall	1997-2003	2	0	2	0	0
DP Hopley	1995-1995	2	2	0	0	0
TO Ojo	2008-2008	2	2	0	10	2
DM Trick	1983-1984	2	2	0	0	0
SRD Abbott	2006-2006	1	0	1	0	0
TD Beim	1998-1998	1	1	0	0	0
ME Corry	1999-1999	1	0	1	0	0
HA Ellis	2004-2004	1	0	1	0	0
OA Farrell	2012-2012	1	0	1	0	0
JC Guscott	1997-1997	1	0	1	0	0
SM Hanley	1999-1999	1	1	0	5	1
AT Harriman	1988-1988	1	1	0	0	0
LD Lloyd	2001-2001	1	1	0	10	2
JD Noon	2007-2007	1	1	0	0	0
SCW Ravenscroft	1998-1998	1	0	1	0	0
PC Richards	2007-2007	1	0	1	0	0
DGR Scarbrough	2007-2007	1	1	0	5	1
OJ Smith	2003-2003	1	0	1	0	0
MC van Gisbergen	2005-2005	1	0	1	0	0
JP Wilkinson	1998-1998	1	0	1	0	0
BR Youngs	2010-2010	1	0	1	0	0

Of course when you look at those off the bench there are many oddities (Martin Corry!!!!).

Only name I do not recognise is TD Beim.

Tom beim played for England on a tour down under. played for Gloucester.

Maybe its more to do with, on one hand, an influx of wealthy nigerians who sent their kids to posh schools, and on the other the gradual erosion of cricket in the west indian community

I don't think people label Eastmond and Wade as the next Jason Robinson because they are black Englishman solely.

They are all small, quick, ellusive much like Robinson was and Eastmondcame from Rugby League (just like Robinson)... but then again I've heard Shane Williams being spoken as similar to Robinson as has Gio Aplon in SA.

Its more to do with the style of play more than anything else.

Monye has never been described as the new Robinson... he's black and a winger too... the reason, because he's a different type of player (big, fast and strong).

Slightly off track for wingers but I'm looking forward to about twenty years in the future when we have a boat load of massive Polish 2nd rowers!

Sinbad and Jonny May are the old/ new Jason Robinson if you want 'white' examples of dancing wingers.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Slightly off track for wingers but I'm looking forward to about twenty years in the future when we have a boat load of massive Polish 2nd rowers!

I still have nightmares thinking about what Grzegorz Kacala did to Tigers in 1997.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Slightly off track for wingers but I'm looking forward to about twenty years in the future when we have a boat load of massive Polish 2nd rowers!

I still have nightmares thinking about what Grzegorz Kacala did to Tigers in 1997.

MOTM in the hcup final with Brive wasnt it?

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Slightly off track for wingers but I'm looking forward to about twenty years in the future when we have a boat load of massive Polish 2nd rowers!

I still have nightmares thinking about what Grzegorz Kacala did to Tigers in 1997.

MOTM in the hcup final with Brive wasnt it?

Yup. It was perhaps the only final Leicester have been in where they were perhaps complacent in their apprach. Having hammered Toulouse in the semi, everyone thought the title was a formality. Boy we were wrong.

Missed the match but watched the highlights on rugby special.

So Mike Brown has already played more on the wing for England than Adebayo, Hunter, JSD, Trick, Swift etc? How depressing.

I had forgotten about Nick Beal, he wasn't a bad player I thought, at fullback anyway.

couldn't tackle though... if I recall.

Ran some great lines though.

Rory Underwood - Fantastic player
Jason Robinson - Same and a better winger than FB
David Duckham - Great entertainer

Only these three that I can recall going back 45 years can lay claim to being world class. Frankly some of the suggestions on here are comical

Ben Cohen and Josh Lewsey were equally deadly when in their prime. You could add both to your list.

I recall Cohen skinning Howlett in 02.... how many players can say that???

Lewsey - Best tackling winger in the modern game.... also had an eye for the try line. (you should love him, he's 3/4 welsh).

Not saying he's world class but I was always impressed with Paul Sackey... he was a very good player. I recall him being the last man when (I think it was) AUS had a 3 man overlap in 07 and he tackled man and ball and saved a certain try and probably the match too.

David Duckham was a brilliant player.Probably the best England player that I have seen in my lifetime.A true Great.

fa0019 wrote:Ben Cohen and Josh Lewsey were equally deadly when in their prime. You could add both to your list.

I recall Cohen skinning Howlett in 02.... how many players can say that???

Lewsey - Best tackling winger in the modern game.... also had an eye for the try line. (you should love him, he's 3/4 welsh).

Not saying he's world class but I was always impressed with Paul Sackey... he was a very good player. I recall him being the last man when (I think it was) AUS had a 3 man overlap in 07 and he tackled man and ball and saved a certain try and probably the match too.

Agree with those. Geoghegan was a better tackler than Lewsey but apart from that. Both Cohen and Lewsey were class. Cohen was the North of his day with a great eye for the line. His try scoring record is outstanding. Lewseys isnt bad too.

Geoghegan was english too right?

fa0019 wrote:Geoghegan was english too right?

I wouldnt say that to him if I was you even if he still lives there.

Geoghan played a while for Bath in the 90's, but that did not make him England qualified (unlike all his Bath team mates at that time)

heard him speak once... sounded very English to me.

Probably parentage like Easterby I would imagine.

gregortree wrote:Geoghan played a while for Bath in the 90's, but that did not make him England qualified (unlike all his Bath team mates at that time)

In all fairness back then lots of Irish players played in England. Geoghegan of course could have played for England cause he was born there and I think his mum might even be English (not sure). However, he certainly, luckily for us considered himself Irish. His father was Irish and a GAA man.

Absolute legand.

gregortree wrote:Geoghan played a while for Bath in the 90's, but that did not make him England qualified (unlike all his Bath team mates at that time)

Born and raised in Hertfordshire, Geoghegan was most definitely English qualified - well until he represented Ireland that is. Nationality to him was a lot more flexible that it was for his dad. Never quite worked out how his dad ever managed to marry an English girl and live here as long as he did.

LT, thanks for that.
Simon is more 'English' than I had realised, but having played for Ireland that unqualified him for any subsequent England honours.

How about Graham Rowntree and Lancaster for the present

gregortree wrote:LT, thanks for that.
Simon is more 'English' than I had realised, but having played for Ireland that unqualified him for any subsequent England honours.

I dont think he was ever going to play for England even if he lived there all his life. There are plenty of "English" with that mindset. Dermot O'Leary(tv presenter), Kevin Kilbane(footballer) for example. The manner in which Geoghegan raised his game every time he played v England tells you everything you need to know about the guys allegiances. He was probably the most passionatly Irish rugby players of his time.

GG
Just a pity that his team mates of the era never passed him the ball...

dummy_half wrote:GG
Just a pity that his team mates of the era never passed him the ball...

He certainly didnt get enough of it alright.

dummy_half wrote:GG
Just a pity that his team mates of the era never passed him the ball...

...or won very much ball to pass in the first place ...

gregortree wrote:

dummy_half wrote:GG
Just a pity that his team mates of the era never passed him the ball...

...or won very much ball to pass in the first place ...

Harsh but true. I imagine a few England wingers of the pre-Carling era feeling much the same.

Even worse though for the Underwoods - playing on a team that did win a lot of ball and still not getting a pass from one season to the next.

Rory Underwood was in world top 3 try scoring stats by end of his England career. So didn't do too badly for ball during the Cooke / Rowell Carling era.

gregortree wrote:

dummy_half wrote:GG
Just a pity that his team mates of the era never passed him the ball...

...or won very much ball to pass in the first place ...

Brian Smith another fan favorite in England was OH for Ireland at the time. He couldnt pass so its no wonder SG didnt get any ball.

gregortree wrote:Rory Underwood was in world top 3 try scoring stats by end of his England career. So didn't do too badly for ball during the Cooke / Rowell Carling era.

And who didnt love the shots of the Underwood's Mum jumping up and down in the stands..

whereas Mrs Ashton leaves it to her son to act as camera bait.... although even that has dried up lately.

GunsGerms wrote:Brian Smith another fan favorite in England was OH for Ireland at the time. He couldnt pass so its no wonder SG didnt get any ball.

Interestingly 5 of his 6 Australia caps came at scrum half

lostinwales wrote:

gregortree wrote:Rory Underwood was in world top 3 try scoring stats by end of his England career. So didn't do too badly for ball during the Cooke / Rowell Carling era.

And who didnt love the shots of the Underwood's Mum jumping up and down in the stands..

Wasnt she in a pizza ad too?

I think she was, Guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59xlLBFXCJk

when rguby still did humour, seems so much more seriously branded these days.

This was one of my favourites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiO8DZ2Urms

Gregor

I wasn't being entirely serious, although you have to admit that the England team of the late 80s/early 90s did tend to specialise in 10 man rugby. Then again, with that pack, why wouldn't you?

As Rob Andrew said, if Dean Richards told you to kick the ball, the only question was 'how far?'.

Dummy
yes point taken. Andrew was more of a kicker than a passer, so Underwood did well to get the tries he did. I actually saw Deano do a catch / clearance kick himself at Murrayfield back in the 90s. Definitely a boot man.