Will the power game be good enough against a much improved Australia?

First topic message reminder :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/10038919/British-and-Irish-Lions-2013-questions-will-be-asked-if-Wales-plus-others-fail-on-summer-tour-to-Australia.html

I don't believe the B & I Lions can match the Aussies for skill but will the inevitable power game be sufficient to beat them?

I don't believe Gats has even given the squad a chance of an alternative game plan with his picks & I agree with BMs comments. Has Gats boxed himself into a corner with the choice of captain & lack of playmakers?

fa0019 wrote:Why does teams who tend to clear rucks quicker i.e. AUS and NZ always seem to score the most tries via backline breaks??

Quick ball is important... the reason why its not seen as important in NH rugby is that generally speaking no team has both a backrows and a first receiver good enough to utilise these opportunities.

Thats not a slight at the NH game... the weather, the size of players etc in the NH all contribute to teams concentrating on other things.

Cause they clear rucks faster which allows momentum to continue

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You don't need quick ball all the time, but when someone makes a break and you're in behind the opposition, that's when it's imperative that you get quick ball. In that situation, there's nothing more frustrating than seeing a scrum half with the ball at his feet pointing to the forwards and telling them where to stand, when the backs have a scrambling defensive line in front of them and are calling for the ball.

I like to call it momentum ball, as soon as you have the momentum and the defending team is on the back foot ie. running back to get in position, the momentum must be maintained, if there is a lull or 3 second ruck , it is too late and the defences have reformed.

Hence the saying, 'get behind stay behind', but this is digressing as once Wales get behind Phillips is more than quick enough, he did it perfectly V England, France and Scotland for tries this year.

I often wonder about Phillips, and there is one issue I have with him, when he goes on the snipe he invertantly breaks the first tackle, and in my view it is what he does next that thwarts a lot of Wales' attacking momentum. He goes for the second and third tackler and then gets isolated to the points where his support runner cannot continue that momentum.

I sometimes think if he would just offload after he broke the first tackle, or draw the first tackler and get the ball wide.

Agree here, it's all well and good to do it 5m out and score, but I think your talking about a NH trait, not just Phillips. Also I dislkie the way Phillips sometimes carries, like a forward taking it into the tight, not only does this leave him stuck on the floor, but when he does make clean breaks he gets no suppport whatsoever, noone can predict him making a clean break.

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Why does teams who tend to clear rucks quicker i.e. AUS and NZ always seem to score the most tries via backline breaks??

Quick ball is important... the reason why its not seen as important in NH rugby is that generally speaking no team has both a backrows and a first receiver good enough to utilise these opportunities.

Thats not a slight at the NH game... the weather, the size of players etc in the NH all contribute to teams concentrating on other things.

Cause they clear rucks faster which allows momentum to continue

again it comes down to support, support play in the NH is so inferior it's scary, players don't learn to support instinctively due to junior infrstructures IMHO, and support can attribute to the difference between NH and SH at present

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You don't need quick ball all the time, but when someone makes a break and you're in behind the opposition, that's when it's imperative that you get quick ball. In that situation, there's nothing more frustrating than seeing a scrum half with the ball at his feet pointing to the forwards and telling them where to stand, when the backs have a scrambling defensive line in front of them and are calling for the ball.

I like to call it momentum ball, as soon as you have the momentum and the defending team is on the back foot ie. running back to get in position, the momentum must be maintained, if there is a lull or 3 second ruck , it is too late and the defences have reformed.

Hence the saying, 'get behind stay behind', but this is digressing as once Wales get behind Phillips is more than quick enough, he did it perfectly V England, France and Scotland for tries this year.

I often wonder about Phillips, and there is one issue I have with him, when he goes on the snipe he invertantly breaks the first tackle, and in my view it is what he does next that thwarts a lot of Wales' attacking momentum. He goes for the second and third tackler and then gets isolated to the points where his support runner cannot continue that momentum.

I sometimes think if he would just offload after he broke the first tackle, or draw the first tackler and get the ball wide.

Agree here, it's all well and good to do it 5m out and score, but I think your talking about a NH trait, not just Phillips. Also I dislkie the way Phillips sometimes carries, like a forward taking it into the tight, not only does this leave him stuck on the floor, but when he does make clean breaks he gets no suppport whatsoever, noone can predict him making a clean break.

Agree with you fully on that.

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You don't need quick ball all the time, but when someone makes a break and you're in behind the opposition, that's when it's imperative that you get quick ball. In that situation, there's nothing more frustrating than seeing a scrum half with the ball at his feet pointing to the forwards and telling them where to stand, when the backs have a scrambling defensive line in front of them and are calling for the ball.

I like to call it momentum ball, as soon as you have the momentum and the defending team is on the back foot ie. running back to get in position, the momentum must be maintained, if there is a lull or 3 second ruck , it is too late and the defences have reformed.

Hence the saying, 'get behind stay behind', but this is digressing as once Wales get behind Phillips is more than quick enough, he did it perfectly V England, France and Scotland for tries this year.

I often wonder about Phillips, and there is one issue I have with him, when he goes on the snipe he invertantly breaks the first tackle, and in my view it is what he does next that thwarts a lot of Wales' attacking momentum. He goes for the second and third tackler and then gets isolated to the points where his support runner cannot continue that momentum.

I sometimes think if he would just offload after he broke the first tackle, or draw the first tackler and get the ball wide.

Agree here, it's all well and good to do it 5m out and score, but I think your talking about a NH trait, not just Phillips. Also I dislkie the way Phillips sometimes carries, like a forward taking it into the tight, not only does this leave him stuck on the floor, but when he does make clean breaks he gets no suppport whatsoever, noone can predict him making a clean break.

Agree with you fully on that.

Nice to see someone picking a trait they see and get annoyed with though, instead of regurgetating the concencus opinion

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Why does teams who tend to clear rucks quicker i.e. AUS and NZ always seem to score the most tries via backline breaks??

Quick ball is important... the reason why its not seen as important in NH rugby is that generally speaking no team has both a backrows and a first receiver good enough to utilise these opportunities.

Thats not a slight at the NH game... the weather, the size of players etc in the NH all contribute to teams concentrating on other things.

Cause they clear rucks faster which allows momentum to continue

again it comes down to support, support play in the NH is so inferior it's scary, players don't learn to support instinctively due to junior infrstructures IMHO, and support can attribute to the difference between NH and SH at present

I taught my boy a valuable lesson a few weeks ago.

He plays prop and doesn't have a great deal of speed (I always tell him he is built for power not speed), anyway, in one of the first games of the season (U10) he pick the ball up from behind the ruck and started driving, he went through quite a number of players, but when he felt he is going down, he instinctively placed the ball back full arms length and his supporting forwards were there to immediately secure the ruck ball, their lock picked the ball up and there was a big hole on the blinside, so he went through going about 20 meters and then lost the ball. The guy who managed to steal the ball from him passed to a player on his outside and the guy ran 50 meters to score a try.

So I asked my son who he thought did the correct and more important thing, him or the guy who lost the ball.

So I explained to him, whether you move 10 meters or 20, the ball is the most important thing and your support the second most important thing, if you don't have support you can't continue momentum and if you don't protect the ball and lose it, it can cost your team 7 points.

Biltong wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Why does teams who tend to clear rucks quicker i.e. AUS and NZ always seem to score the most tries via backline breaks??

Quick ball is important... the reason why its not seen as important in NH rugby is that generally speaking no team has both a backrows and a first receiver good enough to utilise these opportunities.

Thats not a slight at the NH game... the weather, the size of players etc in the NH all contribute to teams concentrating on other things.

Cause they clear rucks faster which allows momentum to continue

again it comes down to support, support play in the NH is so inferior it's scary, players don't learn to support instinctively due to junior infrstructures IMHO, and support can attribute to the difference between NH and SH at present

I taught my boy a valuable lesson a few weeks ago.

He plays prop and doesn't have a great deal of speed (I always tell him he is built for power not speed), anyway, in one of the first games of the season (U10) he pick the ball up from behind the ruck and started driving, he went through quite a number of players, but when he felt he is going down, he instinctively placed the ball back full arms length and his supporting forwards were there to immediately secure the ruck ball, their lock picked the ball up and there was a big hole on the blinside, so he went through going about 20 meters and then lost the ball. The guy who managed to steal the ball from him passed to a player on his outside and the guy ran 50 meters to score a try.

So I asked my son who he thought did the correct and more important thing, him or the guy who lost the ball.

So I explained to him, whether you move 10 meters or 20, the ball is the most important thing and your support the second most important thing, if you don't have support you can't continue momentum and if you don't protect the ball and lose it, it can cost your team 7 points.

Whereas what you shouldve told him was to kick and chase when unsupported, not long enough to have a foot race but long and high enough to retake himself and go in at the corner... what a talentless...

Seriously though I think it's more a case of teaching the kids that there are no wrong answers at that stage, and fault is subjective, if your boy has carried well and presented well for thee next phase thats excellent (especially at 9/10 where they would prefer to kick/throw/cry) but also tha lock that saw a gap and went for it showed gumption too, and in this instance Poopie happened, and there was no fault. Missed tackles however

It's not just support. There has to be a reason for that support and a purpose behind it. And that purpose is to find space. Retaining possession and offloading is all well and good but if you don't find a way to get over the advantage line that momentum in possession is going to count for little.

Moving the point of attack is often underutilized by some nh teams. Moving the ball wider than the fringes and then seeking to go back to the same part if the field, straightening up the angle of attack, drawing the man, passing instead of running laterally all sound very simple and they are but are sadly lacking in many teams.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:It's not just support. There has to be a reason for that support and a purpose behind it. And that purpose is to find space. Retaining possession and offloading is all well and good but if you don't find a way to get over the advantage line that momentum in possession is going to count for little.

Moving the point of attack is often underutilized by some nh teams. Moving the ball wider than the fringes and then seeking to go back to the same part if the field, straightening up the angle of attack, drawing the man, passing instead of running laterally all sound very simple and they are but are sadly lacking in many teams.

Disagree with that to an extent, all can be attributed to the lack of support in some way or another.

Too often, the ball carrier will have support runners, but they'll only be there to clear out / secure the ball when the ball carrier goes to ground. Far better if they were there for when the ball carrier draws the defender and passes out of the tackle.

The French loose forwards used to be great at this, running almost behind the ball carrier and calling left or right depending on where the space was.

Now, sometimes you'd swear the measure of success is how many phases you can go through.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:It's not just support. There has to be a reason for that support and a purpose behind it. And that purpose is to find space. Retaining possession and offloading is all well and good but if you don't find a way to get over the advantage line that momentum in possession is going to count for little.

Moving the point of attack is often underutilized by some nh teams. Moving the ball wider than the fringes and then seeking to go back to the same part if the field, straightening up the angle of attack, drawing the man, passing instead of running laterally all sound very simple and they are but are sadly lacking in many teams.

Don't you get smart with me mister.

Knew you would.

Drawing the man implies you have support. By not drawing the man you are negating your support. Straightening up means you can come back to link up with support inside. The ball is quicker the man.

The support is there. Many teams choose just not to use it.