606 Aviva Premiership Dream Team - LH Prop

Ok we shall start this with the guys who wear number 1. Players will be listed in the order that their team finished in the AP regular season, and to be nominated will have to have featured in at least half the 22 matches. At times this will mean better players and board favourites are not available. Some times due to injury and sometimes due to internationals.
So here goes:

Mako Vunipola 12 starts, 4 bench, 3 tries
An incredible season for the young Anglo/Tongan, born in New Zealand, partially raised in Wales. He had never started an AP match before this season yet by December he had earned his first full England cap as a replacement in a famous win over the World champions. His first start for England came against Italy in the 6Ns and along with 4 further bench caps has explained why he only started 12 regular season games. Big and strong his technical work, especially scrum is still very much a work in progress. However his running with the ball have impressed many observers and booked him a ticket on the Lions flight to Australia.

Marcos Ayerza 10 starts, 2 bench
A late start to the premiership season due to 4Ns duties and an injury against Toulon mean possibly the best technical scrummaging LH in the AP only just squeaks into this poll. The argentinian really showed himself at his best in crunch HEC matches against Toulon and Toulouse – however this is about AP form. As a scrummager he has been incredible and been instrumental in the 5 penalty tries Tigers have been awarded in the AP at scrimmage time. He is also a prominent player around the park. Not a big carrier, but adding impetus as and when needed and making plenty of tackles.

Joe Marler 14 starts, 1 bench
The flamboyant form in the loose that has helped Marler earn his first cap in SA (and 9 further caps) has been less evident this season. Instead we have seen a maturing player coming to grips with the pressures of playing for England and a very difficult position. His scrimmaging has definitely improved and he is a worthy candidate for this poll. Will feel unlucky to have seen his Saracens counterpart selected for the Lions ahead of him but will be relishing the chance to continue his battle with Alex Corbisiero this summer for the England jersey.

Soane Tonga'uiha 21 starts, 1 bench
Featured in every premieship match for Saints and after today’s barnstorming performance will be hoping to leave English rugby with a trophy. Tiny’s form was not good last year, and was still subdued through much of the first half of the season. However ever since confirming his departure to Paris, he has wound his performances up a notch each week. A fantastic player who will be much missed in the Premiership.

Nick Wood 16 starts, 5 bench
I could have sworn that Nick Wood had been injured, yet he has featured in all but one of Glaws premiership matches this season. Wood has dropped completely off the England radar as well as my personal player radar. In part due to issues at Hooker and injuries at TH, the Gloucester scrum has not been as powerful as I had expected this season. I think really that I need HKC to extol Wood’s virtues as I just have this feeling he has been a bit average this season.

Brett Sturgess 15 starts, 2 sub
Another Chief who has been around the park a bit, never really making much impression before finding himself in the Devon club. Having arrived at Exeter when they were in the championship, Sturgess has helped them gain promotion, consolidate in the Premiership as a top half team and had some fun in Europe. A busy player he works to great effect in loose and tight. A serious broken arm and resulting surgery saw him miss January, February and much of March. His return to action came at the same time as a resurgence in Exetr’s form, seeing them win their last 4 matches and secure HEC rugby again.

Paul James 17 starts, 2 bench
Probably the best scrummager available to the B&I Lions, perhaps only a perceived weakness in loose play saw him not selected for the tour. A good old fashioned prop forward. Does his job in the tight to extremely good effect, allowing others the space and opportunity to shine. His form was good enough that he should have started more than just the one 6Ns match this season. Gary gold is strating to build a really strong pack, and this guy is the cornerstone.

No-one qualifies from Wasps ast LH duties have been shared by Tim Payne, Simon McIntyre and Zak Taulafo (also played TH) with no-one starting enough matches.

Max Lahiff 20 starts
Injury to England’s Alex Corbisiero saw the young Londoner (with the aussie dad) start LIs first 20 AP matches. His form impressed many pundits, but did not see him involved for the Saxons. Aussies were among the impressed and Lahiff leaves the AP to feature in Super Rugby and who knows, maybe playing for Australia com RWC 2015

As with Wasps, Sale have had a number of LHs this season and no stand out performers

Matt Mullan 16 starts, 2 sub
The Worcester LH again featured for the Saxons. After turning down a move to Leicester two years ago, Mullan has finally decided to leave Sixways – to join London Wasps. Mullan is lighter than many other LH props, and may well thrive under the new scrum engagement regulations for next season

Franck Montanella 16 starts
Cash strapped London Welsh picked him up from the nether regions of French rugby. Like most French props he loves to scrimmage, but at times the rest of the game seems to be an option he is unsure of.

Firstly well done LT for bringing this back

Your summary of Nick Wood is pretty accurate. He's had a consistent season, but has failed to hit any real heights this year. It's been partly brought on by Dan Murphy becoming a genuine alternative to him. Even in my biased view I couldn't vote for Woody, instead and unbelievably I have voted for a player!! Vunipola may look good charging around a pitch, but a prop is meant to scrummage first and foremost and James has been the best scrummaging prop in the Jeff this year and gets my vote. I'm now going to scrub myself in bleach

I have to agree with you HKC. I may have been able to support a case for ayerza had he not broken his collarbone and missed the end to the season. Sturgess would be my unsung hero - but I will not let sentimentality get the better of me. James has been excellent all season and gets my vote.

On phone so can't vote at the moment but another who will vote for James when I log in tomorrow. Has really made a huge difference to the Bath scrum since signing.

Tiny for Saints has improved in the last 3rd of the season but was pretty quiet before then and although I'm a big Ayerza fan, like LT says he hasn't played enough this season. Vunipola has exceeded my expectations but I feel he needs to improve his stamina, Also I know it's not just him alone but I have seen the Saracens scrum creek a couple times (although they did okay today). Not seen enough of Sturgess but the Chiefs scrum has gone pretty well on the few occasions I've watched them.

As a Saints fan I hope to be able to vote for a certain England international ex London Irish player of US decent this time next season!

James / Vunipola
19 Matches 17
0 Tries 3
0 Points 15
0 Try assist 1
0 Kicks From Hand 0
13 Passes 11
0 Yellow cards 0
0 Red cards 0
62 Carries 112
29 Metres carried 213
0 Clean breaks 5
2 Offloads 3
1 Defenders beaten 23
96 Tackles 112
10 Missed tackles 11
27 Penalties conceded 13
4 Turnovers conceded 5


Ayerza / Marler
12 Matches 16
0 Tries 0
0 Points 0
1 Try assist 0
0 Kicks From Hand 0
34 Passes 15
0 Yellow cards 1
0 Red cards 0
41 Carries 74
53 Metres carried 139
1 Clean breaks 1
11 Offloads 3
1 Defenders beaten 5
65 Tackles 71
6 Missed tackles 9
13 Penalties conceded 10
4 Turnovers conceded 5


Wood / Tonga'uiha
21 Matches 23
0 Tries 3
0 Points 15
0 Try assist 1
0 Kicks From Hand 2
32 Passes 56
0 Yellow cards 0
0 Red cards 0
50 Carries 95
44 Metres carried 275
0 Clean breaks 7
0 Offloads 21
3 Defenders beaten 6
105 Tackles 96
9 Missed tackles 12
26 Penalties conceded 24
4 Turnovers conceded 12


Mullan / Sturgess
18 Matches 17
0 Tries 2
0 Points 10
0 Try assist 1
0 Kicks From Hand 0
14 Passes 19
0 Yellow cards 0
0 Red cards 0
60 Carries 47
110 Metres carried 154
1 Clean breaks 2
1 Offloads 0
4 Defenders beaten 1
97 Tackles 70
6 Missed tackles 5
10 Penalties conceded 13
5 Turnovers conceded 9

Lahiff / Montanella
20 Matches 16
1 Tries 2
5 Points 10
0 Try assist 0
0 Kicks From Hand 0
6 Passes 21
0 Yellow cards 1
0 Red cards 0
54 Carries 59
84 Metres carried 64
0 Clean breaks 0
0 Offloads 8
2 Defenders beaten 3
121 Tackles 70
15 Missed tackles 12
15 Penalties conceded 20
6 Turnovers conceded 8

As a Saints fan I'm glad to see that Tiny leads the way in the most important category for a loose head prop, kicks from hand. No-one else even comes close.

The only stat that vaguely alludes to their scrummaging ability is penalties conceded, but that certainly doesn't tell the whole picture by some way. We'd need to see scrums won and lost, penalties won, etc to use stats to show which prop is best. Please don't just select a prop because he can run otherwise Alastair Dickinson would be the best prop in the world!!

Been a breakthrough season for Vunipola. Of course I am a little biased but I think he's been made a big impact.

His workrate is incredible.

I thought he held up well vs two strong scrummagers in recent weeks - Hayman and Mujati.

Good set up, LondonTiger - lots of work in putting this together.

Ayerza is an amazing technician and I stupidly think that being is prop is all about propping so I'll always go for him.

Jury is still out on Vunipola - he's made the Lions on the basis of these glory carries that he does quite well. He really needs to step up as the weather, grounds and game plan should all play to his strengths. Not convinced he could muller James Slipper in a scrum in the way that Healy, Grant or Gethin could though.

Stlowe nice stats.

George Carlin when scrums are relatively equal I would rather have the far better all rounder Vunipola.

Vunipola is known for his big carries but defensively he works really hard (look at his tackle count) and is a nuisance at the breakdown.

His scrummaging isn't as bad as made out either in my opinion.

Bear in mind that Paul James and Marcos Ayerza are both 30. Tongauiha is 31.

Mako is only 22.

You would expect the older men to be more experienced and better scrummagers.

Well done LT for doing this!

Its hard to pick the best props as the stats never show scrums completed, scrum penalties won/ penalty tries conceeded etc.

In terms of season improvement Vunipola has gone from reserve club prop with potential to going on a Lions tour but as I am assuming the poll is for who has been solidly consistent throughout the whole season I will have to let my bias come in and vote for Paul James. He has been great in the scrum all season, not flashy in the loose, but has been very consistent and dare I say it, if Saint Gethin wasn't such a favourite, I'm sure he would have more Welsh caps.

In defence of Mako Vaunipola - he does pack down with Stevens on the TH side, who appears to be a bit of a penalty machine at the moment.
Most of the Sarries scrum collapses are on Stevens side too rather than Makos.

First and foremost a prop must scrummage - my vote would go to either Paul James or Tiny. They are the 2 most destructive scrummagers on that list.

beshocked wrote:Stlowe nice stats.

George Carlin when scrums are relatively equal I would rather have the far better all rounder Vunipola.

Vunipola is known for his big carries but defensively he works really hard (look at his tackle count) and is a nuisance at the breakdown.

His scrummaging isn't as bad as made out either in my opinion.

Bear in mind that Paul James and Marcos Ayerza are both 30. Tongauiha is 31.

Mako is only 22.

You would expect the older men to be more experienced and better scrummagers.

Absolutely true.

beshocked wrote:Stlowe nice stats.

George Carlin when scrums are relatively equal I would rather have the far better all rounder Vunipola.

Vunipola is known for his big carries but defensively he works really hard (look at his tackle count) and is a nuisance at the breakdown.

His scrummaging isn't as bad as made out either in my opinion.

Bear in mind that Paul James and Marcos Ayerza are both 30. Tongauiha is 31.

Mako is only 22.

You would expect the older men to be more experienced and better scrummagers.

I'm being facetious here beshocked, but by that rational my 9 year old nephew should win as you'd expect Mako, Tiny, et al to be more experienced and better scrummagers! Mako has had an excellent break through year and should be rightly applauded for his efforts. But his age shouldn't play a factor in this, it is purely to find who is the best LH prop this year and there are better.

I can't believe I am actually promoting a Bath player, but James is definitely the best prop on either side this year. Tiny was non-existent pre-Christmas and has only really found his form of old in the last 2 months.

HKC does your 9 year old nephew play professional rugby?

Has he every played in the AP, has he played for England or been picked for the Lions?

Your 9 year old nephew is not on the list for aviva premiership dream prop but I am sure if you ask Londontiger he will add him/her to the list.

I didn't know you had the next scrummaging prodigy in your family!

I mention it because it was a breakthrough season for Vunipola. It is harder for younger players because they are not established.

I think Vunipola has made a huge impact.

You're missing the point beshocked, i'm not arguing that he has had an excellent year and he has justly been rewarded for it; but Vunipola's age should not play a part in the selection. I completely agree with your earlier point about his work rate, which I feel is the primary reason he has made the Lions tour. Maybe it's because I'm in favour of old school props, but for me first and foremost a prop should be judged on his scrummaging. Vunipola has scrummaged well this year, but in James and Ayerza you have 2 props who have scrummaged to a far higher standard this season and are the cornerstones of their respective packs. I'd have Vunipola as 3rd in that list, so again it's not a question I'm slating him, but his age shouldn't be used as an argument to usurp those 2.

I agree with HKC completely. Oh god, I need a lie down!

Bathite wrote:I agree with HKC completely. Oh god, I need a lie down!

I knew you liked me really!

It's nothing against you, just your beliefs!

HKC that's fair enough if you base your selection purely on scrummaging.

Though if that's the case surely the poll would be best LH prop at scrummaging?

Neither James or Ayerza are as impressive around the park. Neither make as many tackles or metres.

Also according to stlowe's stats James has given away a lot of penalties. Stlowe is that right about James making less metres than carries? Surely that means he has been driven backwards?

Statistically James shouldn't be in the running!

beshocked please, please don't go back to quoting stats!!

Scrummaging is what a prop does, not this fancy dan stuff Vunipola does! But to be clear I am not judging on scrummaging alone, but just scrummaging as a primary focus. If it was all about tackling, we'd have flankers for props and 13 people on each team...

Each voter has their own view on what makes the best LH prop across an entire premiership season. That is what makes the debate interesting. First and foremost I like my props to be able to scrummage, then other things can come in to play. Sometimes a slightly less adept scrummager can make up for it with other work. For me Vuniploa has been very good but, in part due to playing less than some others does not stand out as the best across the season.

If scrummaging is so important then why is it ok for James to give away so many penalties?

Personally I think Bath's other prop (TH) has been their unsung hero.

I could understand Tongauiha more so than James.

Fair enough LondonTiger.

Personally I see a difference between a LH and TH prop.

Loosehead for me is less emphasis on the scrum. Better in the loose than their tighthead partner.

Tighthead prop for me it's more important that they can scrummage really well.

Tongahuiha was absolutely smashed all over the park by our TH James Hall when we played Tonga in the pre-AI's warm up game...
Maybe Tiny wasnt quite firing but it proved how good James was...and bit dissapointed he's leaving for Bristol in the summer.

Anyway...probably gotta go for Mako...first real season and he gets a lion call...and hes been pretty devastating in some games...

beshocked wrote:If scrummaging is so important then why is it ok for James to give away so many penalties?

It doens't say that the penalties are at scrum time only. More likely that they are at the breakdown

beshocked wrote:
Statistically James shouldn't be in the running!

And that proves why looking at statistics is completely misleading! And horses hit

Lies, damned lies and statistics.....

Penalties given away at the breakdown aren't important then?

Bathite I can understand you not liking the stats posted by stlowe.

You don't like the ones involving Tom Biggs either. I wonder why.

LondonTiger wrote:Each voter has their own view on what makes the best LH prop across an entire premiership season. That is what makes the debate interesting. First and foremost I like my props to be able to scrummage, then other things can come in to play. Sometimes a slightly less adept scrummager can make up for it with other work. For me Vuniploa has been very good but, in part due to playing less than some others does not stand out as the best across the season.

As the late Brian Clough said "we talk about it for 20 minutes and then we decide I was right."

I'll make beshocked see the error of his ways

HKC who did you vote for?

Can you explain why you voted for that particular person too?

beshocked wrote:Penalties given away at the breakdown aren't important then?

Bathite I can understand you not liking the stats posted by stlowe.

You don't like the ones involving Tom Biggs either. I wonder why. :whistle:

I don't like stats in general, I prefer actually watching rugby!

I was waiting on these discussions with bated breath, so mine was the first comment, but I voted for James. My judgement has been based on what I've seen not on stats (I think stats can be very useful for an argument, but without context can also be pretty useless). I've seen James play live four times this season, plus however many games on TV. Of all the LHs his scrummaging has been the most impressive. Bath have gone from a powder puff front 5, to have a pack of real force and he has been central to that. He may not charge around the loose, but then why do that when you've got the likes of Webber, Fearns, Attwood and Louw who can do it. Nick Wood has historically been criticsed by the English management for a lack of work in the loose, but it completely ignores the fact he is told by the Glaws management not to try and win every breakdown, but pick which rucks to enter as you can't have your props knackered from throwing dummies and making 50 yard runs!

For me the decision was between James and Ayerza and James put in a better performance in my opinion over the course of the season. For waht its worth I'd have had Vunipola third, but whilst he had a truly outstanding break through year, his scrummaging has not been good enough to be a contender.

Ayerza is Leicester Tigers front row, put it that way.

Tiny.
Nuff said.

I think the penalties stat is quite an important one here. Some of the players above are in the mid to high 20s for penalties, whereas if you look at those for most other players on the field (even backrow players constantly competing at the breakdown), they're generally at least a half or a third of that number. The likelihood is that for the majority of these props the penalties have come from the scrum, but even if they haven't, then they've quite likely come from them flopping over at the breakdown or lazily not coming through the gate, and irrespective of how the penalty was awarded, that is costing the side. If it's in their own half then there's a good chance that's 3 points gone, and if it's in the opponents half then that's sacrificing pressure or a point scoring opportunity.

If you look at the two extremes here, James gave away 27 penalties and Mullan 10 in almost exactly the same number of games. Even if James is usually a far, far better scrummager (not sure that is the case between these two personally), those 17 extra penalties could well have cost his side just as much or more than his scummaging gained them compared to a more average prop's scrumming ability.

Mako by a distance imo, he's been fantastic

LT

Thanks for doing this, takes some effort doing the whole set of threads.

For what it's worth my tuppence worth is this. first and foremost a props job is to scrummage, however, the game has moved on, and you cannot get away with only having that string to your bow now, and being a passenger in other areas of the game.

So to make the seasons dream team, you have to have contributed in a number of areas to helping your team achieve. All on the list are good players who one way or another have done well this season. In reverse order my top three are....

3. Max Lahiff

Started 20 of 22 AP games missing only the final two, when injuries caught up with him. He played through injury and consistently was one of our best players this season and was instrumental in keeping us up. His scrummaging still needs work, but he has improved that area of his game immeasurably this season, and his workrate, both carrying and tackling has been immense and I he is the player that I am most gutted about us losing this season. He will be a star in Super Rugby.

2. Mako Vunipola

You do not go from 2nd choice at your club at the start of the season, to earning 9(?) test caps and being a Lions tourist without having done something very right. His play in the loose is excellent, and his scrummaging has improved as the year has gone on. He has worked hard on his fitness and has taken on and held his own against some top tightheads this year. Yes he's had a couple of pastings, but there's not a young prop on the planet who hasn't, that is part of their development. A great season from him overall.


So my winner is....

1. Soane Tonga'uiha

Tiny started the season slowly and looked unfit in truth. He has however upped his game through the season and has been a huge part of Saints run to the final. He has timed hitting form perfectly (luck or judgement who knows), and I can see him having a big game int he final. His scrum work has always been power over technique, and he is hammering that home now, whilst contributing hugely in the loose again as well. If Saints are to win the AP he will have played a huge part and for that reason he is my dream team choice at loosehead.

Can not believe that Marler has zero votes. He's not the best but I'd put him joint second with Mako behind Ayertza.

It seems that people are very selective with what they remember.

"It seems that people are very selective with what they remember"

Or they aren't Quins fans

Mako has been much better than Marler for me, I've not been massively impressed by Marler this season tbh.

I've been pretty pleased with Joe for Quins, his tackling has been huge, he's been very good on the floor and for the final quarter of the season his carrying became far more physical. Not to mention far far better in the scrums even though everying seems to get away with binding on his arm as he has such a long bind himself.