My Son's rugby team.

First topic message reminder :

Howzit guys, you may or may not recall that I told you about my son's rugby team last year and the fact that they won their U9 league.

Anyway today they played their first league match of the season.

Pre season friendlies did not go all that well with mixed results, the rugby festival day was held at the school and They struggled, specifically on defence.

So it was quite nerve wracking to go to a neighbouring school today, but we were soon astounded, within the first half they scored six unbelieveable tries, and another three in the second half.

Final score 51-0

Although the scoreline was something to marvel at, what was most surprising was the actual skill and execution they had on the day.

In the whole match they made 3 handling errors and were counter rucked only twice,losing only two of their own rucks.

The game plan is ultimately a simple one, but was very effective on the day, catch the restart, they didn't knock one and caught each and every restart by the opposition, they simply ran the ball, when tackled the forward rucked over, the half back cleaned the ball to his flyhalf and the ball went wide.

The halfhimself managed to score a brace as well as the inside centre who I must say has incredible pace.

From a personal perspective, my son today scrummed against a guy a full head bigger and taller than him, we managed to ensure that they didn't win one scrum, yep, not one scrum, we got three tightheads and won all of our own put ins. I juat kept screaming to my son to go low and get underneath, oh by the way, our tight head has left the school so my son has moved over to tighthead, he wasn't keen as he played loosehead the whole year bas one match last year, but he is doing just fine at tight head.

Anyway, just a proud dad bragging a bit.

Bluesman, the schoolboy rugby in SA is the exact same as what you see on TV, the only difference is certain safety measures such as scrumtime, they bind their arms before the push and a scrum may not be turned more than 45 degrees or pushed back more than 1.5 meters.

There is lifting at the line out, full 8 man line out.

They may not kick from outside their 22 and the referees are very strict on high taxkles.

BULLETJIE!!!!

Hope your boy's team tackled him rather badly after he touched down... come on BB you got to teach them the tricks of the trade.

Mate, I couldn't believe the pace of this kid, I must admit though I was very sad for these boytjies, they came back from 17-0 to catch up at 22-22 , the momentum was with our team and I really felt they had the belief and could win.

I wasn't criticising, just trying to work out how the SA junior system works, and trying to connect the dots to trends in the senior team.

I have been considering having my first boy (thats right boy) after we return from Oz, and am currently out of work so have put together a model of how to create the optimum rugby player from scratch (my dissertation last year was surrounding skill aqcuisition and physiological development in junior rugby players)

I have found rugby has tended to be behind other sports since going pro with regards to junior structures, and elite pathways, and even now in Wales they are only just implimenting basic strategies and theories I have been campaigning for 3/4 years.

With regards to my line of questioning...

The set peice. In the scrum obviously safety is key hence the hit turn and drive being regulated, but there are numerous theories supporting a push and no push system.

The ability to scrummage will be almost purely genetic at that age, pre pubescent and without any sort of conditioning (usefull conditioning) even the most gifted technical scrummager will be hammered by the bigger kid without him batting an eyelid, therefore the only way of teaching a physically inferior child to compete would be to teach him to cheat/play the ref/be savvy. This will be considerably damaging to how a child see's himself and his own abilities, and an inferior mindset may occur.

By not pushing you are illiminating the issue of size trumping quality, and ensuring far better platforms of attack engraining in the kids the mindset to attack ball in hand not pushing the smaller front row till you are given directions to stop/use the ball etc. It also gives the boys discipline in setting into a good technical position without having to comprimise that once competition starts, and I quite like the idea of the ball having to stay at the 8's feet for 3 seconds before you can play, ensuring holding the scrummaging position.

Children at this age are very susceptible to skill training, they literally absorb body positions and can squeeze to wherever you show them to be, and amazingly will remember it as a reflex very quickly. I think technical aspects should be hammered home at the age of 9/10. Suppleness is a huge issue in juniors and most players will reflect national averages, which if you consider their other physical attribute testing is quite pathetic. Combine testing showed Welsh juniors in Gwent to be in the top 10% in speed, strength and compound movement testing in the UK, highlighting the superior natural athletes taking up the sport, however they tested below the national average in suppleness and balance!!!

Strength training at this age can be far more counterproductive, even if it's only scrummaging a few times on the weekend, mainly because most children either destroy the kid opposite or get hammered themselves, plus if suppleness isn't up to a high enough standard your just teaching the kid to gain strength from a bad starting position that will hamper him through his junior career.

Just a little point, that is in no way scientific or factual just my perception of elite players at U16/U17 and U18 levels in Wales...

Most tight 5 players started and spent most of their junior playing in the back row.

Most backrowers played the majority of their junior rugby in the back row or backline.

Most backs have only ever played in the backline.

I have only come across 2 players (out of around 60) who started in the front row and carried on there, and both were hookers converted to prop.

I have seen it a thousand times, coaches size up a player within seconds, and if he's fat, he gets lumped in as a prop, to hide him from quicker players and to give him the 'best chance of making it in his position' The reason props never make it is because after starting behind the more athletic players instead of receiving counter training to catch him up he is told to play to his strengths, which inevitably turn out to be his weaknesses, as his strengths allow his weakness (everything looked for at senior rugby) to deteriorate as oppose to develop. Propping at junior rugby is a talent grave yard.

Ive just realised I am 2% into writing a complete essay about the subject of junior development so I will stop now, sorry all but my crazy has to come out somewhere (being unemployed and all that)

Bluesman, mate you will be surprised how much technique even at this age can help.

This season (roughly 10 games) my son did not once scrum against a kid smaller than him, he is age nine, and weighs 41 kilograms, (you could compare that to a kid you might know at that age and compare weights) he has scrummed at tight head this season a position he is unaccustomed to as he was loose head last year.

As I was a loosehead I could give him the tips of how to manage bigger tight head props.

This year however I had to teach him the other way as he was now a tight head.

He must have taken roughly 120 scrums this season and only in a handfull did he come second (usually the first scrum or two of the match) then he would adjust and take over.

One kid he scrummed against this season was a full head taller than him, he struggled in the first two scrums, I reminded him from the side (like a screaming lunatic so he could hear me) that he must remember his bind and pull the loose head's elbow down.

There after he managed to maintain his position and didn't get pushed back again.

Now ln average I am guessing the average weight advantage he gave away this season was probably in the region of 5-8 kilo's and yet he never got pummeled.

Now I must admit my son is stocky, he may be of average hight but he is rather solidly built, and every time I see these big fat kids he has to scrum against I expect the worst, but he keeps handling them superbly.he is known in his team as "the only one that scrums"

I reckon technique even at his age makes a hell of a difference.

Biltong wrote:Bluesman, mate you will be surprised how much technique even at this age can help.

This season (roughly 10 games) my son did not once scrum against a kid smaller than him, he is age nine, and weighs 41 kilograms, (you could compare that to a kid you might know at that age and compare weights) he has scrummed at tight head this season a position he is unaccustomed to as he was loose head last year.

As I was a loosehead I could give him the tips of how to manage bigger tight head props.

This year however I had to teach him the other way as he was now a tight head.

He must have taken roughly 120 scrums this season and only in a handfull did he come second (usually the first scrum or two of the match) then he would adjust and take over.

One kid he scrummed against this season was a full head taller than him, he struggled in the first two scrums, I reminded him from the side (like a screaming lunatic so he could hear me) that he must remember his bind and pull the loose head's elbow down.

There after he managed to maintain his position and didn't get pushed back again.

Now ln average I am guessing the average weight advantage he gave away this season was probably in the region of 5-8 kilo's and yet he never got pummeled.

Now I must admit my son is stocky, he may be of average hight but he is rather solidly built, and every time I see these big fat kids he has to scrum against I expect the worst, but he keeps handling them superbly.he is known in his team as "the only one that scrums"

I reckon technique even at his age makes a hell of a difference.

Sorry mate didn't realise he was a prop

At this age the weight range and strength differences will be less, and he may be an immensely technically superior prop to any 10 yr old on the planet, but unless he grows and becomes pubescent within the first group to do so he will come across a no talent lump who just has developed strength far earlier. As a parent, and a very passionate one it is your job to explain to him that he is probably going to be fighting an unfair battle at times, and that has no reflection on his ability or potential, because right now he has you pooring adoration on him for staying succesfull and competitive in the scrum, but soon he will take a licking and that'll really shake what he thought he was.

Plus is he is already stocky the best thing you can do to aid his development is technical training over and over and over, wether it be to stop him from pushing against weaker props, and focus on holding his technique perfectly, practising in the living room on his spin pass, or even taking him to differing clubs to experience different coaches and aid his social development with players he doesn't know etc...

If I were you however I would be focusing on 2 key factors if you are looking for him to progress to elite junior rugby, athleticism is the first thing RDO's look for, taking on a bit of a project as in husky or stocky will be doable, but he has to show an innate athletic ability, or he will be written off before they even look at his attributes. Passing off both hands at pace will sound stupid, but for many RDO's ive met it is number 1 or 2 on their list for every player (BS I know but thats the trend, well in the UK anyway).

There are a few tests you could perform at home to see if he is showing the type of athletecism looked for, Ive seen props who have flat out destroyed everyone in front of them for years with a decent technique and a raw agression, yet because he couldn't pass off his left or lifted his knees to a certain angle when he was flat out he was deemed not good enough.

First thing conditioners and academies do at the age of 16 is flat out cardio, tabatha, fartlek and high enduro / psychological training, really abuse the boys for a month or so with the same repetitive high tempo near maximum heart rate training, weed the mentalliy weak out and ensure every player drops excess body mass. Then they will work on flexibility and body movements in the gym, attempt to profile the boys and ensure their lifting technique is perfect. You'd be amazed how many drop out and are told to leave because they will never be able to lift correctly.

Every ounce your lad is carrying now, that is unusable mass will look to triple by the time he is post pubescent, and for every year he carries the seemingly little weight will be time that effects his form, his ability to move correctly and his ability to perform for longer.

I know I sound pedantic, and in no way am I suggesting that you relay anything of this to him, it is after all your job to keep rugby fun, and keep his appetite for the sport up, but the more you know your up against the more you can look and guard for it.

I am helping a friends boy out at the minute, who's currently playing for elite rugby 2 years up despite him being small, averagely pubescent (based on PHV, PWV, Armspan etc) is more than mixing it with players who are far superior to him physically. He will become a pro and a Wales international barring some sort of breakdown physical or mental (although we guerd against both regularly).

If you were interested my strategy when I have a son will be massively focused on gymnastics and high velocity ballistic movements from the second his feet touch the ground.

Both depth jumps, drops, and lots of holds, lifts and pulls will instill not only a flexibility, but a strength base primed for optimum development, IMHO the first 6 years are about giving the body the platform in which to become susceptible to training and development, meaning flexibility flexibility flexibility. It aids strength, speed, and allows for a superior stamina base to perform skill levels at a much higher intensity than other children.

I also like the idea of swimming and climbing to improve focus, determination and courage, I have come across numerous swimmers who just don't know when to quit, the kind of kids who when playing touch as a warm up will sprint 30 yards to track the guy who's made a linebreak and has no chance of catching. But encorporating swimming and climbing into a schedule is proving difficult!

My son and I have actually already agreed on his off season training, there is an athletics coach that trains kids for speed, middle and kong distance, a friend of mine used it for his two sons a couple of years ago and it has improved his elder son (also played prop ) immensely, he actually started competing in cross country events and qualified for provincial meets.

He was a lot like my son, strong but not much pace, it improved his mobility on the rugby field quite a bit.

Although my son doesn't have a lot of pace he stays around the middle of the pack at training when they do fitness, so I told him the athletics training will increase his speed and obviously his fitness can be sustained and even improved upon during the off season.

We also arranged swimming for him in the coming summer.

At home we practice passing skills by him running clockwise and counter clockwise around me having to pass both left and right, and then we do runs back and forth over a 20 distance where we once again pass left and right.

We then also spend time on recieving kicks on the bounce or high ones which he has improved dramatically.

What I try not to do is pressure him and it is important to me that he loves the game, whether he will become a great or just good rugby player is totally up to him.

Biltong,
I thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread as it has unfolded, as well as some other comments you have made about your son playing Rugby in the past. My two lads are a bit older, aged 14 and 16, and have played in different environments. But I see a lot of the things you write about your son in my two lads.

I finally feel I should comment because you make such an important point about pressure and enjoyment of the game. Living off and on in America, and back home as my lads have grown up, they have plenty of other sports to choose from. In fact, they both wrestle (and are scary good), and run track. I completely agree it is critical they freely choose to play Rugby (or any sport, really). And this, I am sure, is one of the reasons they enjoy it and are willing to put in practise time.

My younger son was pigeon holed to be a Hooker right from his first season of proper tackle at age 10. When young he was somewhat stocky and his legs were very short. The joke was he ran like a duck, rather slow and waddling. But was a good overall athlete and could throw well, and had that special attitude reserved for Hookers and the criminally insane.

Now five years on (he turns 15 in a couple of months) he has grown up to be a big strong lad who is actually quite fast, having just set and then bettered his school record in the 200 metres race. His baby fat is gone and he is just about 6 foot. So, while still hooking, he also played on the flank and a bit at outside centre.

How or where do you think your son gained the confidence to go up against other kids, bigger kids, in the scrum? From enough practise time to realise he is pretty good? Or from that internal wiring that gives a kid confidence or the love of a challenge? Never having Propped, how does he look at a bigger kid and still feel good about things?

I suppose these are probably a little hard to define with kids. I suppose it is what makes coaching kids and watching our kids so much fun, eh?

Doc, thanks for sharing your story, I remember well when you played a game with your elder son, it is moments like that which will stay with us forever.

To be honest I don't know where my son got the confidence from, he knew I played prop when I was younger so perhaps wanting to emulate the old man might have something to do with it.

When he was younger around 6, he went for trials at the school for the 60 meter dash, but was woefully outrun by the faster kids, because of his disappointment I told him some people are built for speed and other for strength and he fell in the latter category.

Although our kids start playing "Cub Rugby" at age 5, he wasn't interested, so I just left him until last year when he came to me and said he wanted to play rugby.

His initial reason was that he didn't want to disappoint me as he know I love rugby, I just left him and when this season started I asked him whether he is sure he wants to play rugby, he said for himself which to me was the indicator that he has clicked onto the game of rugby.

I suppose his school mates as a peer group has some influence as well.

When I recognised his guts and strength was when a mate of mine came to visit a few years back , at the time his son was 10 and mine 6, and my son tackled the toffee out of him, he drove this 10 year old into the ground at times, so I always thought he would be a good forward.

My preference would be that he moves to hooker though, hence him going for some athletics training.

there is an athletics coach that trains kids for speed, middle and kong distance, a friend of mine used it for his two sons a couple of years ago and it has improved his elder son (also played prop ) immensely, he actually started competing in cross country events and qualified for provincial meets.

This is perfect for the off season mate, although cross country isn't the most effective way of training for rugby (too enduro not enough explosive) it is perfect for young kids to increase their energy systems, increase in speed endurance and determination (not to mention allowing your kid a different aspect of competition and social skills).

Also swimming and cross country will be less impact on the body, less chance of getting injured, and I personally think with the lack of stimulus in these sports it will develop a hunger to get back on the pitch with the ball.

I like the fact your involving him by asking his opinions and having him have a say, but also keeping it funa nd light, I ould suggest that the goals for the next few years would be to have your son become the most dynamic prop on park, followed by then the most dynamic front row, tight 5 then most dynamic forward.

Strength, scrummaging, and size I could give to any talentless lump from the age of around 16 (chronological age, not bioglogical age).

I would be able however to allocate him into a box (such as stregth) because kids tend to see themselves far differently to adults, and you don't want him priding himself on areas that he cannot effect and have next to no control over the next 6 years, not to mention the uneven playinf field of puberty. Keep explaining that if he isn't quick enough he has to practice to become quicker, and when he does he has an innate strength that'll make him much better than most.

Also I'd be carefull about training for position right now, athletic training will be great, but all the front row training in the world will mean diddly squat against a backrower when both 16 and have spent 2 years with the conditioners at 18.

As weight differences at 8-10 are minimal, so are strength differences, the actual strength difference will be near purely down to pubescant fluctuations (mixed with a small amount of genetics and training)

Infact it's been proved in England that 2 children of different backgrounds, 1 played rugby all his life from 8, and one never played sport, both strength gains in 6 months of pro strength and conditioning were exactly the same, and after 6 months the juiors went 2 different ways, the non sport child stayed with conditioners and the rugby player went back to his club, after 3 months the non sport kid waqs stronger than the rugby player.

It literally would take 3 months of good training to put any child in the country ahead of your boy post puberty.

The same test was done with regards to speed and stamina, and after 6months of training a non sport child showed progression of less than 50% of the rugby players progress.

The non sport children also lacked any sort of progression on the rugby player after 6months of specialised training in both speed and stamina.

The biggest issue in strength progressions is body fat % and suppleness

When academies finally employ and listen to me I am going to create an army!!!

some good advice there mate, I will certainly heed it. Cheers

Biltong wrote:
some good advice there mate, I will certainly heed it. Cheers

Well there is a list that seems to be getting longer of pro clubs who have decided not to recently mate, maybe my expertise is not as accurate as I think it is

The luxury is if it is here on print you can choose to cherry pick what you think works, what doesn't and what you apply to your son based on what youve read, and thats what it's all about, no matter what any pro or dev officer tells you THERE ARE NO WRONG ANSWERS, what works for one will not work for another, and there are always the oddities that make pro rugby with minimal exposure of the sport or athetic training at all.

Whatever you feel is best for your boy essentially though, is what you and your boy will buy into fully, and buying into a broken philosiphy fully is better than only having your heart half into the best strategy known to man.

Good luck and keep me updated with how he is going

Will do thanks Bluesman.

thebluesmancometh wrote:there is an athletics coach that trains kids for speed, middle and kong distance, a friend of mine used it for his two sons a couple of years ago and it has improved his elder son (also played prop ) immensely, he actually started competing in cross country events and qualified for provincial meets.

This is perfect for the off season mate, although cross country isn't the most effective way of training for rugby (too enduro not enough explosive) it is perfect for young kids to increase their energy systems, increase in speed endurance and determination (not to mention allowing your kid a different aspect of competition and social skills).

Also swimming and cross country will be less impact on the body, less chance of getting injured, and I personally think with the lack of stimulus in these sports it will develop a hunger to get back on the pitch with the ball.

I like the fact your involving him by asking his opinions and having him have a say, but also keeping it funa nd light, I ould suggest that the goals for the next few years would be to have your son become the most dynamic prop on park, followed by then the most dynamic front row, tight 5 then most dynamic forward.

Strength, scrummaging, and size I could give to any talentless lump from the age of around 16 (chronological age, not bioglogical age).

I would be able however to allocate him into a box (such as stregth) because kids tend to see themselves far differently to adults, and you don't want him priding himself on areas that he cannot effect and have next to no control over the next 6 years, not to mention the uneven playinf field of puberty. Keep explaining that if he isn't quick enough he has to practice to become quicker, and when he does he has an innate strength that'll make him much better than most.

Also I'd be carefull about training for position right now, athletic training will be great, but all the front row training in the world will mean diddly squat against a backrower when both 16 and have spent 2 years with the conditioners at 18.

As weight differences at 8-10 are minimal, so are strength differences, the actual strength difference will be near purely down to pubescant fluctuations (mixed with a small amount of genetics and training)

Infact it's been proved in England that 2 children of different backgrounds, 1 played rugby all his life from 8, and one never played sport, both strength gains in 6 months of pro strength and conditioning were exactly the same, and after 6 months the juiors went 2 different ways, the non sport child stayed with conditioners and the rugby player went back to his club, after 3 months the non sport kid waqs stronger than the rugby player.

It literally would take 3 months of good training to put any child in the country ahead of your boy post puberty.

The same test was done with regards to speed and stamina, and after 6months of training a non sport child showed progression of less than 50% of the rugby players progress.

The non sport children also lacked any sort of progression on the rugby player after 6months of specialised training in both speed and stamina.

The biggest issue in strength progressions is body fat % and suppleness

When academies finally employ and listen to me I am going to create an army!!!

What ages are we talking about here?

Allty,

We are talking around the age of 10 or so mate, although when I refer to the study we are talking 16 years old.

Cheers Blue

There is one huge difference between 10 year olds and the 16 year old study.

Sadly I have seen far to many young children lost to sport because of over coaching at far to early an age.

Very true mate, hence at this time I am more concerned with teaching him good habits and concentrating on cardiovascular training.

I spoke to a body builder at our gym a few years back and he said the biggest mistake you can make is to have your son do weight training before puberty hits and testostarone is produced naturally in your body.

My mantra to my son is he must be the fittest boy in his team

Allty wrote:Cheers Blue

There is one huge difference between 10 year olds and the 16 year old study.

Sadly I have seen far to many young children lost to sport because of over coaching at far to early an age.

There are thousnads of differences between a 10 yr old and a 16yr old, but I don't think youve read the comments correctly mate The study was proving my point that any strength training before puberty was not just useless but very detrimental to performance.

When you mean overcoaching do you mean old style poor coaching, or modern techniques where fun is a key element, and development is almost stealthy.

Biltong wrote:Very true mate, hence at this time I am more concerned with teaching him good habits and concentrating on cardiovascular training.

I spoke to a body builder at our gym a few years back and he said the biggest mistake you can make is to have your son do weight training before puberty hits and testostarone is produced naturally in your body.

My mantra to my son is he must be the fittest boy in his team

For me this is the key to any amateur level sport, if you are the fittest person on the pitch, you will do well, even if you aren't naturally the most talented. For me this goes for rugby, tennis, 5 aside football, whatever you play really.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

Biltong wrote:Very true mate, hence at this time I am more concerned with teaching him good habits and concentrating on cardiovascular training.

I spoke to a body builder at our gym a few years back and he said the biggest mistake you can make is to have your son do weight training before puberty hits and testostarone is produced naturally in your body.

My mantra to my son is he must be the fittest boy in his team

For me this is the key to any amateur level sport, if you are the fittest person on the pitch, you will do well, even if you aren't naturally the most talented. For me this goes for rugby, tennis, 5 aside football, whatever you play really.

Golf? Darts?

Golf, up to a point, a lot of the top golfers today are fit, the likes of John Daly are becoming an exception. At amateur level, I'd guess a strong and athletic player of the same standard as a unfit lard-ar$e with a weak back would win more than half of their games together.

As for darts... the ability to drink while keeping your throwing hand steady requires a different sort of stamina!

[quote="thebluesmancometh"][quote="Allty"]Cheers Blue


When you mean overcoaching do you mean old style poor coaching, or modern techniques where fun is a key element, and development is almost stealthy.[/quote]

I should have added fitness training at far to young an age.

I'd like to add that Fun has been a huge part of proper sports coaching for many years (50 plus) in my experience

[quote="Allty"]

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Allty wrote:Cheers Blue


When you mean overcoaching do you mean old style poor coaching, or modern techniques where fun is a key element, and development is almost stealthy.

I should have added fitness training at far to young an age.

I'd like to add that Fun has been a huge part of proper sports coaching for many years (50 plus) in my experience

I wish you'd tell that to 90% of coaches over the age of 40 or so, they are still poor quality all over the UK in my opinion.

RE fitness training, yes, theres no point Fartlek ing the crap out of a pre pubesant player! but allowing children to become more athletic through play works extremely well

I'm speaking as a retired PE & Outdoor ED teacher

My thoughts and views on many rugby coaches are unprintable

Allty wrote:I'm speaking as a retired PE & Outdoor ED teacher

My thoughts and views on many rugby coaches are unprintable

I feel your pain

Interesting BB. It sounds like it's a bit different here. I have two boys. The older one is a similar age to yours.

It's club here from 3 to about u12 -u13 then into school. When school finises it's back to club. We have weight restrictions on age group sides. probably to keep the smaller European kids in the game. My eldest plays up a grade.

In terms of the game. Up until about midway through u9(?) it's flag rugby (i.e. no tackle). So my youngest kid participates in essentially a game of touch where they learn to run and pass on 1/45 sized pitches. This increases to 1/2 fields. They start with about 7 a side4 (I think) and progress up to 10 or 12 a side by the time they are in under 10's. U11's is the first full 15 a side game. It's the first time rugby really starts to look like the adult game. U9-u10's is a lot about learning to tackle and pass, maul and ruck. U11's is still mostly about rucks and mauls, developing simple backline moves, simple defensive lines and driving play. No pushing in scrums and no real competition in lineouts. u12's it steps up a bit (haven't got there yet so can't comment).

blackcanelion wrote:Interesting BB. It sounds like it's a bit different here. I have two boys. The older one is a similar age to yours.

It's club here from 3 to about u12 -u13 then into school. When school finises it's back to club. We have weight restrictions on age group sides. probably to keep the smaller European kids in the game. My eldest plays up a grade.

In terms of the game. Up until about midway through u9(?) it's flag rugby (i.e. no tackle). So my youngest kid participates in essentially a game of touch where they learn to run and pass on 1/45 sized pitches. This increases to 1/2 fields. They start with about 7 a side4 (I think) and progress up to 10 or 12 a side by the time they are in under 10's. U11's is the first full 15 a side game. It's the first time rugby really starts to look like the adult game. U9-u10's is a lot about learning to tackle and pass, maul and ruck. U11's is still mostly about rucks and mauls, developing simple backline moves, simple defensive lines and driving play. No pushing in scrums and no real competition in lineouts. u12's it steps up a bit (haven't got there yet so can't comment).

It probably explains why our rugby is so structured at higher levels, the kids from a very young age play set phases, mauls, etc.

The backlines only get the clean ball, but then I must also add, the handling from last year to this year has been more accurate, and more effective.

Last year was simply one guy runs, gets tackled, ruck, take the ball run, etc.

This year the backlines did the attacking more and most tries were scored down the line. Yet the set pieces and forward organisation is key.

blackcanelion wrote:Interesting BB. It sounds like it's a bit different here. I have two boys. The older one is a similar age to yours.

It's club here from 3 to about u12 -u13 then into school. When school finises it's back to club. We have weight restrictions on age group sides. probably to keep the smaller European kids in the game. My eldest plays up a grade.

In terms of the game. Up until about midway through u9(?) it's flag rugby (i.e. no tackle). So my youngest kid participates in essentially a game of touch where they learn to run and pass on 1/45 sized pitches. This increases to 1/2 fields. They start with about 7 a side4 (I think) and progress up to 10 or 12 a side by the time they are in under 10's. U11's is the first full 15 a side game. It's the first time rugby really starts to look like the adult game. U9-u10's is a lot about learning to tackle and pass, maul and ruck. U11's is still mostly about rucks and mauls, developing simple backline moves, simple defensive lines and driving play. No pushing in scrums and no real competition in lineouts. u12's it steps up a bit (haven't got there yet so can't comment).

Almost exactly how rugby should be done

The Ray Williams WRU Schools coaching in the 70's was very much the same.

The RU courses were carbon copies.

Lots of fun and no mismatching

Biltong wrote:His initial reason was that he didn't want to disappoint me as he know I love rugby, I just left him and when this season started I asked him whether he is sure he wants to play rugby, he said for himself which to me was the indicator that he has clicked onto the game of rugby.

I suppose his school mates as a peer group has some influence as well.

I think my sons would feel exactly the same as yours. Initially wanting to to do well in our eyes, but then developing that desire from within. I absolutely believe there is something about Rugby that makes the peer group or teammates very influential. Kind of a mob mentality where the kids draw a lot of strength and confidence from each other.

And, really not just the kids. That first match when I played with my older son, I absolutely didn't want to disappoint him with my play. Not 100% sure if he felt the same, but he was terrific.

Good to see a hands on and caring approach from the father's in regards to sport with the kids but at the same time, you guys haven't gone all Marv Marinovich on it (Give this a read, quite disgraceful stuff from the parent: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1127063/index.htm)

If you have the time I would also recommend watching this 30 for 30 on Marv and his son Todd, hard to find on the internet though.

Very interesting read Thomond. tried to find the espn 30/30 documentary but seems that you need to pay for it

Thomond, thanks for sharing.
This SI story is not complete:  After being groomed from birth to be a quarterback in the NFL, Marinovich was a remarkable failure.  I don't recall the story exactly, but it ended with him getting some big money (at that time) from an NFL team (Raiders?) and not making it.  No job skills and drug use.  The moral of the story is simply sad. 

I'm pretty sure Biltong and I did it mostly the same way.  Show our kids our interests, but don't close the door to anything.  Let them pick the road then help them down it.  I really don't think anyone, especially a kid, can be successful unless they like what they are doing and really want to do it. 

Its clear to me that the next Lions tour to South Africa my two lads will be lining up and facing a very young Springbok prop named Biltong Junior.  Unless Biltong moves to London soon, in which case my lads and his will all be Lions....................

Oh yeah, I know, I just thought that would be the best article sum up the general situation. Marinovich, grew to hate the game due to the pressure he was put on as a kid, it's a pretty horrible story really, he was groomed to be a quarterback but he was also set up to fail due to the ridiculous situation he was put in by his father.

Agree,
Even without the 'end of the story' the article is pretty pathetic stuff.  Its amazing how much a parent could be so driven, but have no real clue.  And do so much damage.

doctor_grey wrote:Its clear to me that the next Lions tour to South Africa my two lads will be lining up and facing a very young Springbok prop named Biltong Junior.  Unless Biltong moves to London soon, in which case my lads and his will all be Lions....................

They'll be on the same team. Munster have already lined up Biltong Jr as our next project player.

Been reading with interest.

Bilt and I have, in the past, discussed the very different approaches taken to underage rugby in our homelands.

My lad is at a very rugby orientated school and has loved the sport. The coaches however are only interested in forwards play ( Think Munster!). This season he spent a lot of time on the bench but did get used quite a bit and started a few matches. He was probably the first "back" replacement used in any match that he didn't start.

Then came the final of the Plate competition. It was against a team who would only ever have played are "B" team as the gulf in ability was so great. Everyone knew the game would be very one sided and the result would look like a cricket score.

3 tries in the first 10 mins or so.

The coach had brought 6 replacements. Just after half time he took off one of the wings and replaced him with.....a prop, reshuffled the forwards and put a flanker on the wing. Then, near the end he replaced the other prop.

He left 4 boys standing on the touchline in a complete white wash game.



Why would ANY coach do that to his players at any level of the game never mind 14 and 15 year olds? He didn't even gave the lads an explanation or express any regret that he hadn't used them.

Sure, they got to lift the trophy and collect their medals but they didn't want them.

My lad wants to concentrate on athletics next year.

MrsP.
That's terrible.  As you know I coached my younger son's U15 side this year.  EVERYONE Plays.  Full stop. 
We play hard.  We play to win.  As a team. 
As it should be.

I just re-read your post and I am still at a loss for words.  I am really sorry.  Wish I had something else to say.

By the way our backs were not exactly good this year.  Send me your son.  Please.

Got to agree Doc

Having been very much involved in schools rugby over many years I have seen many coaches and teachers whose ego's are beyond belief.

Allty,
To me that is very strange that a kid who was a regular player all of a sudden doesn't get a sniff in their championship[ match.  But, you're right there are some coaches who simply don't get it.  And there are coaches of all kinds.  I've seen coaches who don't give a snort about forwards besides having them scrum and ruck, letting the backs play.  Others are opposite. 

My problem is that it ain't rocket science.  Just have to appreciate the sport and understand the responsibility to the club and kids. 

At our club, the philosophy of the youth/age group Rugby is that we are trying to build, develop, and train the next group of old boys.  And everyone gets it.  Makes most decisions simple.  And we remain competitive:  We have one kid who graduated out of the the age level and is now at university.  Was named to a regional select side as a 19 year old.  And was invited to train this summer at the USA Rugby complex in Colorado. Not too bad.

Whocares/Doctor Grey and anyone else who is interested: The Marinovich Project (about 5/6 posts up a brief summary of the whole thing has been done.) has finally appeared on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paY1ooeQNz4

Cheers Thom

Thanks, Thomond!
Gawd, this is a terrible story. A waste of a life. Hard to know what to call the father. Misguided? Or much worse?

That's interesting that they have a league at that age. One of my nephews plays with other 13 year olds and they don't have a league. He said at the end of the year that they won more than they lost but that's all that they know. The philosophy is that they are supposed to be playing for fun still. But at that age in Ireland most children have only just started playing rugby.

Personally I prefer this idea that the game is for fun until they get a little older. What do you think?