Nadal vs Gulbis thread

[invisiblecoolers]

First topic message reminder :

A Champion vs extreme underdog, but we all know when Gulbis turns up he could turn up big, the big Lativian for some years considered as the next big hope [he is still not that old 24] has never fulfilled the GOD given talent. He played a great match against Rafa in 2010 at the very same venue and could have easily won had Rafa been slightly out of his best.

With threads raising questions which version of Rafa is better, I guess tomorrow's match holds a key to those answers, if the Lativian takes down Rafa tomorrow I guess the question is answered by itself.

To add more, I don't see this Rafa as intimidating as he used to be in 2008-2010, if the same Gulbis who turned up against Victor [or the Gulbis of 2010 Rome] I won't be surprised if Rafa goes down tomorrow. Rafa's return is very deceiving, yes his stats for the year is stunning but he has lost so many sets which on normal years would have been very shocking, could have easily lost IW to Del Potro.

Who thinks this match could be close affair?

I looked at the odds at Bet365 and here you go Nadal is marked as a stern favorite with 7 times the money on Gulbis to win the match and 5.50 to win the 1st set. Bet365 bookies expecting a straight set thrashing on Gulbis.

I see this as another case of Rafa's stats be so deceiving and I expect Gulbis to take the match much closer than expected, if some how he pulls the 1st set off he might even go on to pull the biggest upset of his career.

I am going for Gulbis to win 6-4 6-4.

[kingraf]

Pretty poor from Nadal, though, some parts of his game still arent clicking. His struggling to put opponents away more often now, and he keeps starting matches colder than frozen water, but its scary that he can survive through a guy playing lights out without being near his best.

[CAS]

even Nadals incredible fitness wil be tested here, all these finals quite a few 3 setters in there, he now has Ferrer which could be a close couple of sets, then he could have Novak which we know will be war

[lydian]

This is not vintage Nadal or anywhere near it. As others have said, we keep getting told it is but the screen shows us differently.
He says he's getting no time to actually practice properly and work on his game. I don't even think his fitness is tip-top yet.
Ferrer will draw a lot of confidence from last week - well the 1st 2 sets anyway.

[break_in_the_fifth]

Didn't he say he was good after Madrid and that he wasn't in Monte Carlo? So now he's bad again?

[invisiblecoolers]

...but he still won. Beating Nadal on clay is a mammoth task even when you play the best tennis of your career.
It wasn't Nadal at his best though...just 13 winners and his BH looks decidedly weak/vulnerable.

Exactly Lydian, this is what we have been advocating, Nadal's game is not the same and he is more vulnerable these days, good issue is that people are not getting intimidated by him and pushing him to limits, Nadal will be more mentally exhausted than physically now, if he gonna face a 2nd player in a row like Gulbis tomorrow that will break him down.

A peak Rafa would love these kinda fights and wins but the current Rafa is the exact opposite.

[Haddie-nuff]

Pretty poor from Nadal, though, some parts of his game still arent clicking. His struggling to put opponents away more often now, and he keeps starting matches colder than frozen water, but its scary that he can survive through a guy playing lights out without being near his best.

I totally agree with you KR from the Nadal fan´s point of view it was a hard match to watch. Gulbis showed brilliance and yet Rafa still managed at the end to outplay him. I think Gulbis could have been blindfolded and still found the lines. Im left asking how Rafa won that match and as you say its a bit scary that he can survive an onslaught like that both physically and mentally and still not be playing anywhere near his best.

[CAS]

if Rafa does get changed in the seedings and put at 2 and Ferrer at 5, if you are changing them shouldn't it be Murray at number 5 not Ferrer? If we are judging this on clay court level? And keep Ferrer at 4. Just a thought

[kingraf]

With the lack of pace on this court. Djokovic-Nadal (should it happen) looks like it could be a war of note. I know some of you dont like seeing ground and pound... But Im salivating at the prospect of a marathon street fight. Pity Im working a marathon (literal) on Saturday from five (A.M) until seven (P.M)

[invisiblecoolers]

even Nadals incredible fitness wil be tested here, all these finals quite a few 3 setters in there, he now has Ferrer which could be a close couple of sets, then he could have Novak which we know will be war

Ferrer is trying his best to prove some points on his arrival to big 5, but I am not sure he gonna turn up with some insipid performance but if he does, and Rafa to play Djoko and followed by Federer it will be one horrible tournament for him given his form

[invisiblecoolers]

Pretty poor from Nadal, though, some parts of his game still arent clicking. His struggling to put opponents away more often now, and he keeps starting matches colder than frozen water, but its scary that he can survive through a guy playing lights out without being near his best.

I totally agree with you KR from the Nadal fan´s point of view it was a hard match to watch. Gulbis showed brilliance and yet Rafa still managed at the end to outplay him. I think Gulbis could have been blindfolded and still found the lines. Im left asking how Rafa won that match and as you say its a bit scary that he can survive an onslaught like that both physically and mentally and still not be playing anywhere near his best.

But dear Haddie, this use to be Rafa's trademark i.e to pull win out of no where, but sadly that kinda game is slowly evaporating, inspite of the win today it would have taken a toll of Nadal, Nadal would still be very nervous in his room to have overcome this match.

[kingraf]

IC- but that is my problem with these discussions. What evidence is there to suggest that his ability to pull rabbits out of the hat?
He came back from a break and a set down vs JMDP
Came back from a very inspid game to put away Ferrer
Toughed it out against Dimitrov.

[Haddie-nuff]

I know ic.. I dont disagree .. however his ability to play every match as though it were the final has not changed and never ceases to amaze me

[kingraf]

You cant have it both ways. Nadal cant be an inferior product and mentally less fiery. That equation doesnt equal a 33-2 season

[invisiblecoolers]

With the lack of pace on this court. Djokovic-Nadal (should it happen) looks like it could be a war of note. I know some of you dont like seeing ground and pound... But Im salivating at the prospect of a marathon street fight. Pity Im working a marathon (literal) on Saturday from five (A.M) until seven (P.M)

As long as they grind each other out and pulls out of the finals I will take it , I really want Nadal to be No.5 for FO and face Djoko in the quarters, I want one of them to be eliminated by the quarters making a way for Murray and Federer to make a come back in the Rankings.

[The Special Juan]

Aren't you meant to give a player the same length of time back as he was out of the game before you can judge where their game is at? It took DelPo at least a year to get back to somewhere near his very best. Judging Nadal when the hardcourt swing comes around again would be my advice.

[CAS]

Roger really should make the finals this year, and who knows might be able to pick up a half battered Novak or rafa

[invisiblecoolers]

IC- but that is my problem with these discussions. What evidence is there to suggest that his ability to pull rabbits out of the hat?
He came back from a break and a set down vs JMDP
Came back from a very inspid game to put away Ferrer
Toughed it out against Dimitrov.

I don't know how long r u a Rafa fan, Rafa at his peek which accordingly from me in 2008 would never let underdogs get a close match in clay, but if some get close in Hard courts he still finds a way to beat them, we are not into Hard courts yet, if the clay matches are close I won't be surprised many taking him down on Hard courts, not a good sign of things to come for Rafa if the form doesn't pick up.

[invisiblecoolers]

I know ic.. I dont disagree .. however his ability to play every match as though it were the final has not changed and never ceases to amaze me

We are discussing a legend, Legends don't die quickly, but not positive signs at all, I along with other have been saying this for quite a while that Rafa's stats for this year is deceiving , I am not saying he don't deserve those titles but he didn't have to be at his best to win them, so technically we don't know how good Rafa is at the moment unless and untill he is really tested by some top dogs on unfavorable conditions, I am not convinced Rafa can win this Rome easily like he used to in previous years, he might struggle against Ferrer in the quarters itself.

[Haddie-nuff]

ic whilst he was off for 7mths with injury would you have ever said then that he would have progressed this far from the time he played his first match.. and having been in 7 finals having won 5 of them.. Dont you think you are expecting a lot of him. No he is not back to where he was and still a way to go.. but give him some credit for how far he has come. HC´s for a totally fit Rafa would always be a challenge Im not looking that far ahead at present and I dont think he is either.

[invisiblecoolers]

You cant have it both ways. Nadal cant be an inferior product and mentally less fiery. That equation doesnt equal a 33-2 season

To explain the stats, he played 2 Masters Indian Wells and Madrid and some 250's and 500's, lets discuss the masters,

Indian Wells, the best he had was Del Potro, and don't expect Del Po to win 3 matches against the big 4 in 3 days which he almost did when he was leading a set and 3-0 up but fatigue took a toll eventually, Rafa not tested the entire tournament otherwise.

Madrid - Yea he played well, but Dimitrov, Tsonga, Ferrer all got very closer which never use to be the case before in clay.

MC - the first big test he faced was on the finals and he scummed to Djoko

Rome- He almost lost to Gulbis today

I am not saying Rafa didn't deserve the titles, I am just saying Rafa doesn't need to be at his best to notch these wins, so the stats are deceiving as we don't know how good Rafa is after his comeback and he certainly is not as good as the stats say.

Let him face more tougher challange in top dogs in alien conditions then we will see where that stands at the end of the year, I certainly don't think he can maintain that percentage by the end of the year.

[invisiblecoolers]

ic whilst he was off for 7mths with injury would you have ever said then that he would have progressed this far from the time he played his first match.. and having been in 7 finals having won 5 of them.. Dont you think you are expecting a lot of him. No he is not back to where he was and still a way to go.. but give him some credit for how far he has come. HC´s for a totally fit Rafa would always be a challenge Im not looking that far ahead at present and I dont think he is either.

Haddie you know I respect Rafa a lot for his achivements, he deserves all these titles and its incredible stats to boost on his comeback but to blinded thinking he is at his best just coz of the stats would sound stupidity, you know very well Rafa is winning the match but no way near his best, I know how good Rafa's best is and I didn't see that today.

[invisiblecoolers]

Roger really should make the finals this year, and who knows might be able to pick up a half battered Novak or rafa

Which is what exactly I want and steal a win over one of these two, he certainly needs some gift considering his age

[lags72]

Roger really should make the finals this year, and who knows might be able to pick up a half battered Novak or rafa

Really ....??

I have serious doubts.

I said around 12 months back (maybe more) that I feel this will be his last 'full' season on tour and that in at least one of the Slams he will (finally !!) suffer an exit prior to the QF's.

Fed's 15-5 W/L to date must be one of his least impressive starts for many many years. By this same stage, in what proved to be a great 2012, he had probably won about twice as many matches with maybe only half as many losses.

I do believe that - despite him understandably taking more time out - the accumulated mileage is finally taking its toll where results are concerned.

Anyway, let's see just how he fares here in Rome and then we have might have a better idea of his RG prospects. Those who saw him versus Starace did say he was both moving and hitting beautifully. And Starace actually played far better than expected - although he was never going to be the toughest of tests ........

[invisiblecoolers]

Roger really should make the finals this year, and who knows might be able to pick up a half battered Novak or rafa

Really ....??

I have serious doubts.

I said around 12 months back (maybe more) that I feel this will be his last 'full' season on tour and that in at least one of the Slams he will (finally !!) suffer an exit prior to the QF's.

Fed's 15-5 W/L to date must be one of his least impressive starts for many many years. By this same stage, in what proved to be a great 2012, he had probably won about twice as many matches with maybe only half as many losses.

I do believe that - despite him understandably taking more time out - the accumulated mileage is finally taking its toll where results are concerned.

Anyway, let's see just how he fares here in Rome and then we have might have a better idea of his RG prospects. Those who saw him versus Starace did say he was both moving and hitting beautifully. And Starace actually played far better than expected - although he was never going to be the toughest of tests ........

But Lags lets be honest the draw opened up nicely for him, if he cannot make the finals with this one then Roger should retire immediate coz I don't really see a future. No Murray, Del Potro, Rafa, Djokovic , Ferrer, come on gimme a break, just had a look he doesn't have to face Tsonga, Berdych and inform Stan the man either.

[Haddie-nuff]

ic Im not disagreeing with you at all and I fully recognise that we are not seeing the Rafa we know.. but whilst physically Rafa has some way to go to come anywhere near what he was I am more than encouraged by Rafa´s metal approach- His will to win and his "never give up" attitude is still there. I worry for him in the sense I know from a recent interview that he is still worried about the knee letting him down. He puts it under a great deal of pressure as he did today and it must, and probably always will be, the thing that prevents him from running everything down the way he did. Will he ever get back to that ?? I know not.. I look for the old Rafa every time he plays.. no he isn´t there at least not yet. I live in hope but he won against a very difficult opponent today and at one stage I was saying "bye bye- There was a time during his time off when I thought he might retire. So Im happy that he is well and competing to the best that he is able at the moment.

[lags72]

I hear what you say invisible, but remember that the danger doesn't necessarily have to always come from the 'established' names.

In his final couple of years or so on the tour, Sampras was losing to a whole succession of pretty ordinary (by Pete's mercurial standard) players.

This has certainly NOT happened to Federer at the equivalent age, but if it ever does then I would agree that it would be far better to call it a day whilst still in the top 10. And I'm fairly sure that's what RF would do.

[kingraf]

Its remarkable that Gulbis hit 43 vs a guy who hit 10 winners in the final two sets and still lost both of them.

[invisiblecoolers]

I hear what you say invisible, but remember that the danger doesn't necessarily have to always come from the 'established' names.

In his final couple of years or so on the tour, Sampras was losing to a whole succession of pretty ordinary (by Pete's mercurial standard) players.

This has certainly NOT happened to Federer at the equivalent age, but if it ever does then I would agree that it would be far better to call it a day whilst still in the top 10. And I'm fairly sure that's what RF would do.

Yea I agree.

[invisiblecoolers]

Its remarkable that Gulbis hit 43 vs a guy who hit 10 winners in the final two sets and still lost both of them.

We know Nadal's game don't we? its more about consistency than hitting winners.

[socal1976]

You cant have it both ways. Nadal cant be an inferior product and mentally less fiery. That equation doesnt equal a 33-2 season

I agree with you Kingraf, he may have rustiness and rehab issues to still work out but when did a tough match in a master's series that you win equate to you being so far off your best. The best Rafa I have seen is Rafa from 2010 to present, on the average. Right now he has been playing competively for exactly 3 months. I am sure he has a lot higher gear he can get to. Besides, Gulbis was playing in a manner early in that match that would have seen him beat 98 percent of the tour in a route. The winners to UE ratio, on a clay court against Nadal, especially that first set was astronomical. But the guy is what a 100 points off in the points race with no points from the AO?

[invisiblecoolers]

[quote="socal1976"]

The best Rafa I have seen is Rafa from 2010 to present, on the average.

[socal1976]

Oh yes because it wasn't like Nadal ever lost a set to Gulbis on clay in his heyday. Oh wait he did at this very tournament.

[Silver]

Interesting comments from Gulbis after the match:

'I thought I was the better player in the match and also in the second and third sets but he is the champion. I lost against him in Indian Wells when I also thought I played better than him. He is solid and he didn't do anything special and I made mistakes and so he won.'

In some ways I'm glad that he's taken that attitude, and retained his self-belief despite losing a match that he should've won. He played a blinder and still lost, but it clearly hasn't mentally scarred him any, which is definitely a good thing. Too many players on tour have baggage when facing the top guys, I hope he persists with the fearless mentality. I'm not sure that he was the superior player at IW - certainly the more spectacular - but he definitely was today.

[banbrotam]

Just wish Gulbis would now kick on, but we all know he won't

[kingraf]

Its great that Gulbis doesnt feel traumatised by the defeat (though he has no right to, from the second set onwards he was the one trying ti catch up in the sets), but its that mentality that has him 0-5 or 6 vs Nadal. He needs to realise that champagne tennis is not going to win him the big moments, this isnt the Becker era were if you went for the lines enough you would win because the other guy was doing the same, you have to wait a little longer to pull the trigger. If he keeps losing while thinking "I was the better player" he wont get to a spot whereby he is expected to win a few.

[Henman Bill]

I don't he should say he was the "better player" because he's probably kidding himself. Better to say "I thought it was a close match, neither of us much better than the other, and it could have gone either way. If I had converted a few more points, I could have won it."

Didn't see the match though, but, reading this thread, wish I had, so maybe try and catch some highlights.

[Henman Bill]

I just wonder if Gulbis comes out against Nadal and thinks "Right, this is a challenge worth bothering with". But if he had applied himself throughout the years mentally ans physically as well he might have actually been able to beat him on clay at least once in his career, instead of just putting up a fight. I wonder if that ever went through his head as well.

[socal1976]

I am sure it does go through his head HB he is a smart kid, but I just think life has come to easy and he lacks the hunger and drive. There is a sense of entitlement in these quotes and with his attitude as much as it is cocky. I think he just is happy having fun, and winning is fun but not as much as partying or chasing girls.

[kingraf]

Judging by his comments pre-matches with nadal, I think Rafa is the one match he gets fired up for.

[LuvSports!]

He does what he wants, he does what he wants, Ernests Gulbis, he does what he wants!

[invisiblecoolers]

Just wish Gulbis would now kick on, but we all know he won't

Sadly Yes thats the case

[invisiblecoolers]

Interesting comments from Gulbis after the match:

'I thought I was the better player in the match and also in the second and third sets but he is the champion. I lost against him in Indian Wells when I also thought I played better than him. He is solid and he didn't do anything special and I made mistakes and so he won.'

In some ways I'm glad that he's taken that attitude, and retained his self-belief despite losing a match that he should've won. He played a blinder and still lost, but it clearly hasn't mentally scarred him any, which is definitely a good thing. Too many players on tour have baggage when facing the top guys, I hope he persists with the fearless mentality. I'm not sure that he was the superior player at IW - certainly the more spectacular - but he definitely was today.

The attitude is really interesting thou.

[Haddie-nuff]

Another quote from Gulbis

“I was aggressive from the first point on,” said Gulbis. “In the second set, he got into longer rallies and he slowly picked up into the match. I don't know how good or bad he played... Against him, you have to win. This is why he is who he is.”

Yep you´ve got that right at least !!!

[kingraf]

Still, the man lives an awesome life. If you were to be a journeyman tennis player, with little chance of winning a major, wouldnt you prefer to be the son of a billionaire, with a spacey mentality, rather than, say Troicki?

[Haddie-nuff]

If I had the talent that he had I would like to prove to myself how good I was without my father´s money. It might make him into a half decent human being -
When the novelty of playing at being a tennis player wears off.
I think if he showed himself and the game a little more respect he could well win a slam he has the talent

[invisiblecoolers]

Still, the man lives an awesome life. If you were to be a journeyman tennis player, with little chance of winning a major, wouldnt you prefer to be the son of a billionaire, with a spacey mentality, rather than, say Troicki?

I differ you KR here, I rather prefer to be Troicki and live on my legs than live on father's money and waste the life.

[invisiblecoolers]

Nadal on his interview didn't like Gulbis wasting time, he looked annoyed and says he didn't like the way Gulbis had to check the mark with the umpire so many times in the match, and I didn't like that attitude. On the other hand he sees Gulbis as a great potential and could shine if he corrects his attitude and remain calm in the match.

[kingraf]

yeah... But Im young IC. Though I would probably prefer the Verdasco method. Make it on my own and blow the cash on women and Ferrari's

[Chydremion]

Nadal on his interview didn't like Gulbis wasting time, he looked annoyed and says he didn't like the way Gulbis had to check the mark with the umpire so many times in the match, and I didn't like that attitude. On the other hand he sees Gulbis as a great potential and could shine if he corrects his attitude and remain calm in the match.

HAHA Nadal doesn't like time wasting time! Hahhhhaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa rofl haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa lmao haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaa LOL haaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa *glub* aa**** aaa*cough************cough************hhaaaaaaaaargggggggghh**************g****a****s****p...........................

[Henman Bill]

Nadal didn't like him asking the umpire to check the mark, it wasn't about "wasting time" do you have a quote for that or are you twisting his words?

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