606 Aviva Premiership Dream Team - Lock Forwards

Well Mako Vunipola had a late surge of votes to sneak the LH Prop berth. Meanwhile voting is still open for a little while for TH prop with Dan Cole holding a small lead, while Tom Youngs is a clear leader in the hooker poll:

https://www.606v2.com/t44064-606-aviva-premiership-dream-team-th-prop
https://www.606v2.com/t44133-606-aviva-premiership-dream-team-hooker

So we move to the second row of the scrum and vote for lock forwards. Multiple votes will be allowed as there will be just one poll for two places. Unless there is a good reason there will be just one Lock forward nominated for voting from each team, and again playewrs neaad to have started at least 10 matches to be eligible.

So on to the contenders:

Steve Borthwick 19 starts (1 rep)
There have never been many doubts about Borthwick's ability at premiership level. For Bath and now Sarries he has been a class operator. The recent semi-final defeats may have taken off a touch of gloss, but this has possibly been the Cumbrians best ever season. Rightly nominates for Aviva Premiership player of the year he should be a serious contender in this poll. His lineout work has as usual been excellent, but this season has seen him more prominent in the loose. Defensively he has been a key component of the Sarries "wolf pack". He made 149 tackles and missed just 8 - highly impressive. Borthwick has been partnered by a few players, most often Alistair Hargreaves, but none make this poll.



Graham Kitchener 16 starts (1 rep) & Geoff Parling 12 starts
Taht Kitch is in this poll may surprise some, but he has been in excellent form in the AP and has played more matches than any othe tigers lock. He has done the business in the set-piece, and you would expecty nothing less from a tigers forward. His confidence has grown through the season and can be seen by the number of line-out steals he has managed (8 vs Borthwicks 10) most towards the end of the season. however it is in the loose that he has been most prominent often showing up in tigers attacks. Good passing and decent hands he has been an effective ball carrier and well deserves his 2 tries.
Nominated for England Player of the year, Parling just makes this poll. Only playing 12 matches his form has been a key component to tigers being in the final again. Averaging one lineout steal per game he has helped secure the turnover ball that Tigers thrive on. High work rate and very solid in all facets of the game perhaps his absolute best performances have come in HEC and 6Ns matches - but still a mighty fine premiership season.

George Robson 21 starts
An under-rated player he has been a key figure in a long season for Harlequins. Has done his work quietly across the season and sadly for him is so understated that he has dropped well down the England pecking order. 3 tries for a Lock forward is some going. Hopefully Charlie Matthews can learn for robson and his regular partber Ollie Kohn. Kohn does not make this list as his performances have been a touch lacklustre.

Samu Manoa 19 starts (3 rep) & Courtney Lawes 14 starts (1 rep)
Manoa has featured in every Saints match this season and has been their stand-out performer. More recently he has featured at No8 and has also featured on the flank of the scrum. However it is at second row that he has featured most. He carries the ball well, probably better than any other candidate on this list, possessing strength for hard yards and speed for explosive ones. Tackles like a demon and fights like mad in the close quarters. Only thing that lets him down is his more subdued performances in the lineout.
Lawes is another player who plays second row and on the flank (though hopefully never again for England). His form since the 6Ns finished has been fantastic - but was it good enough before that? Very similar to Manoa he looks comfortable with the ball and seems to love tackling. Proficient at clearing out the breakdown, you just feel he should be more prominent in the lineout.

Tom Savage 20 starts
Yet another player who has split his time between the second and back rows of the scrum. Pretty much what I said about Manoa and Lawes can be repeated here. Will James has featured most matches in the second row for Glaws without ever shining, while Jim Hamilton has not looked his usual self in his rare forays in cherry and white.

Dean Mumm 16 starts
Having joined from the Waratahs, Mumm saw a delayed start to the season, missing the first 5 rounds. Since then he has missed just one AP match and seems to have really bought in the the Baxter ideology. A strong player and useful ball carrier he has been a good acquisition by the Devon club.

Dave Attwood 15 starts (6 rep)
A very strong second half to the season has seen his deserved selection for the England tour to South America. He makes a lot of carries and a lot of tackles. Good in the scrum, decent in the lineout let us hope that he may be on the verge of fulfilling his early promise.

Marco Wentzl 18 starts (2 rep) & Joe Launchbury 11 starts (2 rep)
Wentzl is the lineout king. Best in the premiership. Understandably rest of his game not quite so good, but still a very, very good premiership player.
Launchbury is yet another second/back row hybrid. While he has tired a little as the season has progressed, it has still bean a magnificent effort. Best performances though have been in the white of England. Fantastic season but with his matches inthe back row probably has not done a big enough shift in the second row to make the dream team.

Bryn Evans 22 appearances
Has featured in every AP match, though sometimes from the bench. A very solid, uncompromising player he has outshone George Skivington for much of the season. Board favourite Matt Garvey has featured mainly in the back row.

Kearnan Myall 16 starts
Big money was spent on signing Richie Gray, however former Leeds forward Myall has completely outshone the newly selected British Lion. Strong performances were good enough to interest Dai Young at Wasps where he heads next season.

Dean Schofield has been the best of the Worcester locks, but not really stood out.

Jonathan Mills 19 starts
Capable of playing in the back row as well, has been used mainly at second row. Strong performances have seen him win Players and Fans player of the year awards at London Wlesh's end of season shindig. While not as good as a fair few on the list, his efforts in a struggling team make him a worthy contender.

One decision is very straightforward and the other is very difficult!

For as much as I have lambasted him in the past Borthwick has had an excellent season. Ever since he left the international game he seems to have improved. His lineout work is still excellent and remarkably his ball carrying has improved. He is also an excellent captain and there is no doubt he influences refs to his/Sarries favour.

The next decision is one that is far more difficult. Both Kitchener and Parling have had good seasons. Attwood has finally started to find his form of old. Manoa is a fiery so and so who adds real intensity to the Saints pack. Myall has been mercurial at times in the lineout. But for me the choice is between Tom Savage and Jonathan Mills. Savage has been outstanding for Glaws and bar Kalamafoni (who really should win the 6 award!) he has been our best performer. Nothing fancy, just 100% committed and he can certainly make a big tackle! I will expect him to be named Glaws' captain next year to replace Hamilton (who LT rightly points out has been a bit mixed this year). But for me Mills has to win this. If there is ever an example of a player bleeding for a club it is him. His level of commitment is unsurpassed by any and he would grace most sides within the Jeff. His lineout work has been good, but it is his play in the loose that has really made him stand out. He is just relentless. I would rather like it if Glaws poached him, but you just can't see him walking out on Welsh.

Attwood has been great for us, but so have many others. Slater and Kitchener have impressed, but I've gone for Manoa for his unbelievable consistency and brutality, coupled with the nous of Borthwick, who is crucial to his side.

Agree with Bathie, Borthwick & Manoa for me. I admire Borthwick, he takes a ridiculous amount of criticism but just keeps his head down and does what is needed for the team. Manoa has just been immense for Saints this year and I was surprised he wasn't nominated for player of the season (although I don't think he deserved to win it but feel he should have been a finalist). There is always a danger of second season syndrome after your first season in the Jeff but Manoa notably improved even after his impressive debut year.

I'm not sure that I agree with the Lawes comment regarding lineouts. I'm not a stats man (wouldn't even know where to find them) but this season Lawes has become much more prominent in the lineout and along with Wood is the go to man for Saints. He doesn't actually run them, that is left to Day (Wood when Day isn't fit) but it's an area of his game he has improved considerably. He needs to show the same level of improvement in his carrying for next season.

Manoa is a definite for me, he has such a hig work rate and just seems to be everywhere. The player we wish Lawes could be like...

The other slot... Attwood has had a very strong second half of the season and I think is shaping up to be the Bath club captain, expecting more of the same next year.

But a previous Bath captain gets it for me, Bothwick is a very good player at this level, so strong in the lineout and not nearly as bad around the pitch as some would have you believe.

Those 2 together would make a decent pairing I think.

Had Jonathan Mills been signed by another club for next season? Too good to be the championship surely?

I honestly don't know who to vote for, so i'm taking the easy way out and just not voting

nathan wrote:I honestly don't know who to vote for, so i'm taking the easy way out and just not voting

Pfft - coward.

Where is Ed Slater? Wouldn't win but I am surprised he's not in the mix.

My picks would be Borthwick and Manoa for reasons already mentioned by others.

beshocked wrote:Where is Ed Slater? Wouldn't win but I am surprised he's not in the mix.

My picks would be Borthwick and Manoa for reasons already mentioned by others.

Slater has only made 7 starts in the AP this season, so not eligible. Until Deacon got injured Slater barely featured at all.

I wouldn't want Borthwick at all. Done a very decent job at Sarries, a good leader, extremely professional, incredible in the lineout...but powder puff. I was delighted to see Samoa show him how a lock should carry.

Parling is far more rounded, as is Launchbury. Samoa I don't think has had a great season but utterly out played him the other week. If that wasn't enough to convince me, his constant whining to the ref and the way he interacts with opposition players i.e. mouthy, pushy, but all talk. is enough for me to pick just about anyone else.

Oh, and Slater has also been far better

Hood83 so you are basing your opinions on one game?

How can you say on one hand Borthwick is extremely professional and a good leader yet you also say he's a whiner, all talk. Bit contradictory no?

Perhaps Borthwick was just tired after a long season afterall he had to play in the HC games too.

Can Samoa run a lineout? Can Launchbury run a lineout?

Across the entire 22 match regular season, Borthwick was for me the stand out lock. Come the business end of the season his performances may well have tailed off - in line with many of the Sarries squad, but for me I am basing my votes (as far as possible) on purely AP performances and across the whole season.

So Borthwick wins there. Mt other choice ws just Kitchener - because he has been consistently excellent across a large number of matches.

Manoa was my third choice, not wanting to let his phenomenal performance in the semi outweigh others where Saints have been rather limp.

Damien Welch for Exeter was brilliant whenever I saw him. Not sure how many games he started to be fair.

When Saints were mediocre, Manoa was not. There were matches where he provided most of the grunt and steel. This American lad is the best performing 2nd row I have seen this season.

After that, it is a bit of a toss up between a few very good players.

Also from an Irish perspective - totally disagree with Bryn Evans outshining Skivington. Evans was excellent last season, but was a big disappointment for me this year. He looks too lightweight. Skivington was far superior over the course of the season, although it did take him until January to get a run of games together. The fact that he took the captaincy off Bryn says a fair bit.

SirBurger wrote:Also from an Irish perspective - totally disagree with Bryn Evans outshining Skivington. Evans was excellent last season, but was a big disappointment for me this year. He looks too lightweight. Skivington was far superior over the course of the season, although it did take him until January to get a run of games together. The fact that he took the captaincy off Bryn says a fair bit.

Totally agree. I thought Skivington was outstanding against Glaws at Kingsholm and the games I have seen him in since he was certainly no slouch.

Bryn Evans was good in the lineout, has good stats, but didn't do enough around the park. Skivington was vital for us from January onwards. Led from the front.

Launchbury, Borthwick, Manoa and Attwood the standouts though. Tough choice for 2.

I guess it was just in the games I saw George play then. Just felt he had struggled to settle in Reading.

Attwood & Borthwick from that list. As much as I dislike Borthwick as a player he's had a good AP season. Slater would possibly get the nod too but not an option.

Borthwick and Manoa for me.

I like to make fun of "Jimmy Durante" Steve as much as anyone but he is the supreme lineout operator in the Jeff and the man deserves respect.

Manoa is a fireball and if he and Big Jim team up against the Lions on 1 June, we might have real problems (or injuries) in Honkers.

beshocked wrote:Hood83 so you are basing your opinions on one game?

How can you say on one hand Borthwick is extremely professional and a good leader yet you also say he's a whiner, all talk. Bit contradictory no?

Perhaps Borthwick was just tired after a long season afterall he had to play in the HC games too.

Can Samoa run a lineout? Can Launchbury run a lineout?

Not in the slightest bit contradictory, I think. He's obviously a top pro in terms of training and taking the game extremely seriously. I'm pretty certain he offers a superb example of how a modern pro should prepare. He's also very good at erring on the right side of the ref in terms of not giving away silly penalties...but I cannot stand the way he talks to refs and opposition players. I wouldn't call it unprofessional, just extremely irritating.

Actually putting Samoa above Borthwick was perhaps unfair, given the former's consistency I don't think has been good enough. I do think he put in a performance at a level I've never seen from Borthwick though. Picking Samoa would only be in terms of balance for me. Re your point on tiredness, that's a fair point. He's had a long season and looked heavy-legged agains Saints.

Can Samoa or Launchbury run a lineout? No. Can Borthwick carry beyond the gainline...ever? No. Swings and roundabouts.

Borthwick and Manoa for me.

I would say though that Kohn has been one of the best if not the best forward for Quins across this season. What he gives us when he plays can't be shown in highlight reels so is difficult to show off (unlike say Manoa/Lawes big hits or Borthwicks lineout work). But it is essential to our team, with him we have a pack, without him we don't, simples.