CON LOS TERRORISTAS - The Greats That Got Away TRES - DURAN v ARGUELLO

In previous editions in this occasional series, which has so far won as many OSCARs as The Wire, we have debated the outcomes of fights more famous for why they didn't happen, and who was to blame, than for the potential of action that would have taken place.

Here that changes. Here's a fight that there was called for, and why not? It would've been huge. But there was greater call for other matchups. For potential action though, this one has few rivals.

I'm talking about the dignified, classy gentleman VS the barely domesticated, cow-punching, wild man. El Flaco Explosivo V Manos De Piedra. Arguello v Duran. All Latino showdown.

By 1978 they'd each begun to run out of challengers in their respective divisions. Arguello having just stopped Escalera late on and Duran at his vicious, brutal best was coming off the rubber match victory over De Jesus. Arguello's camp mentioned the fight first and Duran's were open to it. However Duran had lucrative offers at light welter and welterweight. Arguello had Chacon and Limon in his sights. So for once a great fight didn't happen not due to ducking, but due to the best seeking the best.

But can you imagine the action?

Arguello, upright, not much of a mover but like a mini Joe Louis he had the fundamentals nailed better than 99% if boxers ever will. Possessed a unique blend of power and speed. It was explosive, snap power that came out of nowhere. He carried it late, too. He could knock a man out in any round. Any man. Even Pryor took to the backfoot against Arguello and his head was made of bricks. Teddy Brenner said "This guy would knock out Duran at any time."

Duran. Roberto Duran. Latino machismo pouring out of his ears. Devourer of raw meat and the bane of horses. The Lion King of the 135 division. He would come forward with upperbody movement that made him hard to tag, and a rock solid jaw for when he was caught, but it was when he caught his opponent that his class showed, for he too was heavy handed and would remain that way for 15 rounds. A great closer of space with the killer instincts of a cheetah who's just spotted a gazelle with a limp. Knockout artist vs knockout artist.

So let's pretend it happened differently. Instead of going after Leonard and co, Duran remains at 135 to defend his title against Arguello, moving up from 130 but with a height advantage of around 3 inches, and reach around 6. Duran cannot go on without proving he is the greatest latino fighter in the world, whereas Arguello is just going about his business.

Some love Duran's crazy attitude. Others detest his savagery and admire the class with which Arguello conducts himself. On the inside they're both desperate to knock each other out.

My friends, what happens? PS, no boring one line answers please.

Sorry to go off message, but this is like Manny/Floyd and yet it hasn't harmed the legacy of Duran and Arguello.

But had the fight happened, I'd back Duran. Alexis's weakness was his slow footwork. Against Duran that is what you need to win. You can have the best punch variety and classical pose all you want, but you have to be able to get out of the way of Duran's relentless attacks. I can imagine Duran boring in and throwing nasty punches on every part of Alexis's body until Alexis sucummed. Similarly to the Pryor fight but with more violence.

Arguello wins this with technical precision. Like a doctor he would break Duran down, find his weakness and target him for 15 rounds.

Duran would get frustrated as we know. This fight would pan out just the way Arguello handled Mancini. If you want a visual perspective of how Duran would of been beaten by Arguello then just watch Arguello v Mancini.

The first part of the fight saw Alexis study his opponent never rushing in and being quite economical with his punches. For all Mancinis efforts he could not help but get schooled. I see Arguello picking Duran apart. No doubt the frustration of the Panamanian animal would result in some dirty tactics which would lead to points deduction but I see Arguello boxing to a decision.

Duran was leagues above Mancini.

If you're referring to "no mas" that was a one off. Alexis would not taunt Duran or take the pi$$ even if he was handling him. Duran wouldn't resort to dirty tricks out of frustration. He did that as part of his normal game.

If Arguello can beat Duran at 135, then I don't think the Mancini fight is the best fight to look to for evidence, OneTwo!

You say that Arguello simply spent the first few rounds, perhaps even half the fight, assessing Mancini. Well he might have been, but I'd say it was more a case of Mancini simply causing him a lot of problems and getting the better of it for the most part; Ray was much the better man for the first half of that one.

Mancini was really just a kid at the time, it was his first world title fight and, truth be told, Arguello should probably have dealt with him slightly more impressively given the huge experience he had to call on, even though Mancini was obviously far from a patsy.

I think Duran has too much in his favour to lose this one, although Arguello will win his share of rounds. DeJesus showed that Duran can be countered and stunned if he rushes in early on and Roberto isn't going to be able to get inside as easily as he could against others.

However, he'll get there eventually and I think his inside fighting against the more rangey, upright Arguello, amazing stamina and relentless attack will just wear the naturally lighter man down. As Azania said, there will be hints of Arguello-Pryor about this one.

If Alexis had a weakness it was average feet - if he can't dance his way off the ropes and out of the corners, he'll either get seriously worked over for a points loss, or chopped down late. Nothing in it for six or seven rounds, Duran gets the upper hand in the eighth or ninth, and stops Alexis inside twelve.

azania wrote:Sorry to go off message, but this is like Manny/Floyd and yet it hasn't harmed the legacy of Duran and Arguello.

Hmmm, not really az. At the time this was mooted, Duran went up to welter, and arguello didn't make it to lightweight for another 3 years.

It's a fight that could have happened not one that should have. Easy to look back and see arguello as a superstar... It's the fights he went on to have that made him the household name he became.

As for the fight. Arguello is talked up as a master boxer, but he could be a slow starter and often had to come from behind. He'd have his moments for sure, but duran's real problems were with slicksters, so I like Duran in this one, closeish but clear points or late stoppage.

Comfortable win for Duran this one, superior footwork exceptional chin and the rare ability to roll/slip perfect counters which were Arguello's forte. Add to that he's naturally bigger, stronger and a serious hitter himself I think this is a 8-12 round stoppage in a 15 rounder. Particularly poignant is Durans ability to stay in range without taking too many clean hits, even Pryor had to shift out of range because of Arguellos clean punching. Duran stays within range and rolls/slips arguellos best work to land his own and wear him down before taking him out.

It's hard to construct a case for Alexis in this one, even for a dyed in the wool admirer like myself.

To start with, although he was an extremely fine lightweight, I think that Arguello's peak had just passed by the time he ruled that division. At super-feather, a weight that seemed to suit him down to the ground, he had no peer. Although Mayweather will certainly have his supporters, I still believe that Arguello's dominance over high-quality opposition entitles him to be called the finest 130 pounder of them all.

I slightly question the idea that Alexis had run out of opposition at 130 in 1978. To the contrary, I feel that his subsequent annihilation of Chacon, Navarrete, Limon (later Boza-Edwards as well), who played pass the parcel with the title after Alexis moved up, is what really cements his claim to primacy at super-feather. Duran was a different matter, of course, having thoroughly cleaned out 135 by this time.

When Duran won the welterweight title in 1980, he was operating three full divisions above Arguello, which emphasises that this was a fight that could have only happened in our imaginations, really. Duran never met a hitter as good as Arguello, but at lightweight, he was both highly durable and much more mobile than he later became. As everyone has noted, foot speed was the Arguello Achilles heel, and it would ultimately have been costly. I could easily see Alexis jolting Duran in the early going, even opening up a wide points lead. Both men were incredibly dangerous in the championship rounds, stopping a number of opponents late on, but you have to think that Alexis's ability to resist the most insistent attacking lightweight of them all would finally crumble by the 13th or 14th.

How does Arguello fare against the modern lot captain? Relatively modern that is, in Barrera,Pacquiao, Morales and Marquez.

ShahenshahG wrote:How does Arguello fare against the modern lot captain? Relatively modern that is, in Barrera,Pacquiao, Morales and Marquez.

He loses.

I somehow doubt that, reasoning please?

His best chance would be against JMM because of their styles. JMM is essentially a counter puncher and Alexis would not give him the space or opportunity. A win for AA.

MAB would apply intlligent pressure and score a narrow win. I believe this will be an absolutely barnstormer. AA's problem against MAB would be his footwork. He wouldn't get the space. Same as with Pac.

I have those 2 as nailed on wins. Morales fight could go either way and in hindsight I reckon AA would win a UD because of his better punching. Morales doesn't use his height effectively.

As I have said previously on this fight the only argument you can really make for Alexis is at the time when this fight was genuinely mooted and could have happened Duran was genuinely struggling to keep his frame within the ligthweight limit and if you are drained a fifteen rounder with someone of Arguello's calibre was not the ideal place to be.

Real pity Alexis managed to dump a decision to Fernandez, which he really shouldn't have done because looks like this one could have happened had he not done so.

There are probably only one or two guys one would back with anything even approaching confidence at lightweight and Argeullo is not one of them so you have to go with Duran, but something makes me think over 15 if Alexis can see the later rounds he could make this interesting, as Duran would be tight at the weight and few fighters ever were better in the championship rounds than Alexis.

Fairly certain that Arguello chops down Barrera, Shah. Barrera is a fine technician, but he's not sufficiently quick to pose Alexis the problems that men like Marcel or Fernandez did, and he's not big enough to push Alexis around, either. He could forget about driving Alexis's head into a turnbuckle, that's for sure.

Morales is all wrong for Alexis, who would pick him off at will, I believe. The number of punches that Morales took to land his own would be fatal against someone who punched straight with as much venom as Alexis.

Marquez a cannier fighter than Morales and could set Alexis more problems. A year or two ago, I couldn't really see Marquez actually beating Arguello, but I have been impressed with the way that he has carried his skills through the weights in recent years. Still incline to Alexis by tough decision, but not as confidently as once would have been the case. Not sure exactly how Marquez solves Alexis's reach and variety of punch.

Pacquiao vs Alexis at 130 would have been some fight. Quickest hands Alexis would ever have met and one of the hardest hitters. Thing is that Arguello was such an intelligent fighter and I believe that he would have been able to negate a lot of Pacquiao's greatest strengths, quite possibly outfighting him in the trenches as well as picking him off from the outside. Wouldn't surprise me if Alexis had to rise from an early knockdown, as he did against the fearsome puncher Ganigan, but I wouldn't have minded a modest bet on a late stoppage for the Nicaraguan.

Alexis, you have to remember, was bloody hard to beat when title belts were at stake; he never lost any of his titles in the ring, and it would need one of the four to have had a career best day to manage the trick, in my opinion.

I'm of a similar mind but I just wanted to see if you would court the wrath of Rowley who took you task regarding Morales on the old boards

I think though that Pacquiao would be the easier win of the four for arguello rather than Morales who could box when required. Pacquiaos excellent chin has kept him from being taken out several times over and he afforded the most chances to his opponents (prior to roach certainly and slightly less so after) I think that Alexis would sit in the eye of the storm and put him down 2-3 times en route to a wide UD - not without some painful moments of his own. Excellent watch I think

With Barrera as you said, he's just a mite too slow to rush Alexis and he couldn't bully him as he did the diminutive Naz. He circles well, he picks his shots well and is willing to throw many but he is liable to taking combinations and even in that excellent performance against Naz, he was troubled by nearly any combination and such a precise puncher as Arguello would take note and deliver his own. Plus Barrera leaves many openings that most can't exploit - again the specialty of Arguello. Great fight to watch

I think Marquez loses the early rounds with his tendency to get hit clean early. Arguello starts slowly but so does Marquez and he's demonstrated in the past how much better he is after the early rounds. Not a knockout by any means and i'd be inclined towards the view that the remainder are split fair equal between them. The caveat is that Marquez gives Arguello much more time than the others and can't match him in the timing department, and despite his vastly superior footwork and ability to grow from strength to strength Marquez loses a comfortable UD An engaging fight but not so much of a blockbuster as the others owing to a lower action rate

Morales boxes against Arguello I think, and his tendency to brawl perhaps wouldn't make a show until quite late in the game and the explosive thin man takes over then. Both Pacquiao and Barrera sought ot turn it into a Brawl and succeeded whereas the cool arguello would give him little cause to fire his blood early on. Arguello tight UD after taking over from round 9 after losing the bulk of 8 competitive rounds. Complete and utter box office.