Welsh Regions Signings/Departures/Rumours 2013 (Scarlets link with Blues winger Albert Nikoro)

First topic message reminder :

n Harris arrives at Ospreys

In

Tito Tebaldi (Zebra) – Confirmed
Rhodri Williams (Scarlets) - Rumour
Tyler Ardron (Ontario Blues) - Confirmed
Jamie Murphy (Bridgend) - Confirmed
Jeff Hassler (Prairie Wolf Pack) - Confirmed
Mathew Dwyer (Bridgend) - Confirmed
Sam Williams (Aberavon)- Confirmed
Chris Gibbes ( Waikato/ Assistant Coach) - Confirmed
Zac Guilford (Crusaders) -Rumour
Aisea Natoga (Nadroga) - Confirmed


Out

Kahn Fotuali'i (Northampton Saints) - Confirmed
Jonathan Thomas (/Worcester Warriors) - Confirmed
Jonathan Humphries (Scotland Forwards Coach) - Confirmed
Campbell Johnstone ( Russian Club) - Confirmed
George Stowers (Tasman) - Confirmed
Cai Griffiths (London Welsh)- Confirmed
Ian Gough (Dragons) - Rumour

Scarlets

In

Steven Shingler ( London Irish) –Confirmed
Ed Jackson (London Welsh ) – Rumour
Andrew Coombes (Dragons) - Rumour
Gareth Delve ( Melbourne Rebels) - Rumour
Serge Lilo (Wellington Lions) - Rumour
John Barclay (Glasgow Warriors) - Confirmed
Nick Cummins (Western Force) - Rumour
Farid Sid (Perpignan)- Rumour
Opeti Fonua (Agen) - Rumour
Brett Deacon (Leicester Tigers) - Rumour
Regan King (Backs/Skills Coach) - Rumour
Genesis Mamea (Wellington) - Rumour
Darran Harris (Pontypridd) - Confirmed
Jamie Cub Davies (Carmarthen Athletic) - Confirmed
Josh Lewis (Ebbw Vale) - Confirmed
William Helu (Rugby Roma Olimpic) - Rumour
Lachlan McCaffery (Western Force)- Rumour
Rodnet So'oialo (Honda Heat) - Rumour
Frazier Climo (Taranaki) - Rumour
Albert Nikoro (Blues) -Rumour


Out

Tomas vallejos cinalli (Pampas XV) – Confirmed
Gareth Maule (London Irish/Munster) – Rumour
Adam Warren (Cardiff)- Rumour
Scott Williams (Cardiff) – Rumour
Rhodri Williams (Ospreys) – Rumour
Tavis Knoyle ( Gloucester) – Confirmed
Gareth Davies (Blues) –Rumour
Owen Williams (Leicester Tigers) – Confirmed
Jonathan Edwards (Cardiff RFC) – Confirmed
Andy Fenby (London Irish) - confirmed
Morgan Stoddart (Retired) - Confirmed
Dan Newton (London Scottish) - Confirmed
Kieron Murphy (Brive) - Confirmed
George North ( Northampton Saints)- Confirmed
Rheon James (Cornish Pirates)- Confirmed
Richie Pugh (Released) -Confirmed
Rhys Jones (Released) - RumourConfirmed
Dale Ford (Released/Bristol) - Confirmed
Samson Lee (Gloucester) - Rumour
Peter Edwards (London Welsh) -Confirmed
Craig Hawkins (Released) - Confirmed
Craig Price (Leicester Tigers) -Rumour
Lee Williams (Carmarthen Quins)- Confirmed


Dragons

In

Ross Wardle (Bedwas) - Confirmed
Richie Rees (Edinburgh) - Confirmed
Luciano Orquera (Zebre) -Rumour
Martin Muller (Cheetahs) - Confirmed
Juan Gomez (Pampas XV) - Rumour
Netani Talei (Edingburgh) - Confirmed
Francisco Chaparro (Stade Francias) - Confirmed
Kris Burton (Treviso) - Confirmed
Rhys Thomas (Wasps)- Confirmed
Malakai Fekitoa (Auckland) - Rumour
Lyn Jones (London Welsh) -Confirmed
Kingsley Jones (Russia National Team) - Rumour
Mathew Screech (Cardiff Blues) - Confirmed
Franck Montanella (London Welsh) - Rumour
Hudson Tonga’uiha (London Welsh) - Rumour
Jason Tovey (Cardiff Blues)- Confirmed
Ian Gough (Ospreys) - Rumour

Out

Andrew Coombes (Scarlets) – Rumour
Dan Lydiate (Racing Metro)- Confirmed
Steve Jones (Retired)- Confirmed
Tom Brown (Released/Jersey) - Confirmed
Tondi Chavhanga (Released) - Confirmed
Iestyn Thomas (Retired) - Confirmed
Josh Tyler (Released) - Confirmed
Hywel Stoddart (Released) - Confirmed
Tim Ryan (Coventry) - Confirmed

Blues

In

Filo Paulo (North Harbour) - confirmed
Matthew Rees (Scarlets) Confirmed
Liam Davies (confirmed - until end of season)
Gethin Jenkins (Toulon) - Confirmed
Rhys Gill (Saracens) - rumoured
Adam Warren (Scarlets) - rumoured
Scott Williams –(Scarlets) – rumoured
Tavis Knoyle (Scarlets) – rumour
Gareth Davies ( Scarlets) - rumour
Rodney So'oialo (Honda Heat) - Rumour

Out

Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro) - confirmed
Tom James (Exeter Chiefs) -confirmed
Richard Mustoe (retirement) -confirmed
Fau Filise - (retirement) rumour
Ceri Sweeney (Exeter Chiefs) - Confirmed
Leigh Halfpenny (Clermont) - Rumour
Michael Paterson (Sale Sharks) - Confirmed
Campese Ma'afu (Nottingham) -Confirmed
Corry Hill (Cornish Pirates) - Confirmed
Andy Kyriacou (Retired)- Confirmed
Xavier Rush (Leaves) - Confirmed
Mathew Screech (Bedwas/Dragons) - Confirmed
Nathan Trevett  (London Welsh) - Confirmed
Jason Tovey (Dragons) - Confirmed

Any region going over the NWQ quota should have their funding reviewed or even reduced.

Do we know the terms of the agreement regarding NWQ players?

LordDowlais wrote:Any region going over the NWQ quota should have their funding reviewed or even reduced.

I believe that is what is meant to happen. The Ospreys did breach the NWQ agreement before when they brought Ricky February in as cover, but the WRU did sanction it.

If I am right, don't the WRU have to agree to any signings the regions make? So the odds of actually being able to breach the NWQ rules must be slim, unless there are technical loop holes.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Any region going over the NWQ quota should have their funding reviewed or even reduced.

I believe that is what is meant to happen.  The Ospreys did breach the NWQ agreement before when they brought Ricky February in as cover, but the WRU did sanction it.

Close enough!  

I was under the impression that the NWQ limit was for a match day squad - something like 6 NWQ max reducing to 4 by the end of the participation agreement. If so, then you could have 50 NWQ on your books as long as you don't name more than 6/4 in your matchday 23. Could be wrong though and Google isn't revealing much.

LP - I was linched on the old 606 for being all sorts of -ist for calling him that. But I can't help it, it always makes me chuckle.

Griff - I think that is where the lot of us are lost. I believe originally it was 8 NWQ, but a max of 6 in a match day squad. Then it changed to this 8 maximum, but only a max of 6 capped nwqs. To be honest the idea of a limited number of nwqs per match day squad makes sence to me though.

Great just great we have gone to rumors with the likes to Nick Cummins, Delve and Folau to a winger and 8 that I have never heard off. \yes they were just rumors but we have to aim higher than Helu and Locky. OK they might not be big names but one isn't even payed for the bench with Western Force and that Helu i s playing for a second division italian team.
Look like we have just gone straight to Worldartists again, just lazy recruitment. I feel we might be the weakest of all the regions next year. We have lost some great players this year and the only really good recruitment we have had is Barclay.
Keeping Timani would be ridiculous because we don't use him anyway, taking up a NWQ and we have a lot of strength at lock now.
I fear we won't have a good year next year and don't have the slightest of chances in Europe. HUH  

I understand where your coming from, but realistically we have only lost two wingers from our first team but strengthened our pack. Its all down to if Owen can stay injury free and if Jordan/Kyle/Dion can step well enough.

The HEC is beyond us even if we kept George and Fenby.

It seems the agreement is for 6+2 NWQ players per Regional squad with an average of 17 WQ players per playing squad.

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/8688.php

Thunor (your right it didn't stick) it says in there, reducing to 6 (inc. time serving) by 13/14 season. So looks like the Scarlets are either screwed or have found a possible loop hole. Giving the whole George North issues, and the supposed assistance from the union to help, I think most likely the Scarlets will end up being in poop.

It says "intended" rather than "will". I imagine it was to be agreed later. So they probably didn't agree.

I wonder how the "average of 17 WQ players in playing squads" changed with 23 man squads.

I always felt that thsi contract between the WRU and the regions was bottled by the WRU. Any contract that doesn't give specifics but just says thing like "intended" was always going to be used by the regions to stick 2 fingers up to the WRU. For Wales to have an agreement whereby our regions can have 8 non Welsh in just crazy. The next round of contracts it needs to be stated that the funding will be different each year depending on how many Welsh players you have. Anything over 3 and the region gets a massive cut. We pay the regions our money and the WRU not to fund overseas pension pots but to develop and play Welsh players.

DrNick I see your point, however taking the Scarlets (seeming as its them pushing their luck) as an example. Their NWQs, assuming McCaffrey and Timani are done deals, are 3 capped and 4 time serving (3of which only have 2 years to go). And all the time servers are still young, and will be in their prime when they are qualified. So not exactly the pensionable NWQs of old.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:DrNick I see your point, however taking the Scarlets (seeming as its them pushing their luck) as an example.  Their NWQs, assuming McCaffrey and Timani are done deals, are 3 capped and 4 time serving (3of which only have 2 years to go). And all the time servers are still young, and will be in their prime when they are qualified.  So not exactly the pensionable NWQs of old.

I find the concept of project players more detestable than anything else.

Same as, but if the rules mean they become wq, then in two years even if they don't play for Wales their still wq and not against the nwq rules.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Same as, but if the rules mean they become wq, then in two years even if they don't play for Wales their still wq and not against the nwq rules.

True but it doesn't mean squat now. How many NWQ may Scarlets have and how many are non-capped?

If rumoured signings (McCaffrey, Timani and Tongan wing) are true, 8 in all 4 capped, 3 one year into residency

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I understand where your coming from, but realistically we have only lost two wingers from our first team but strengthened our pack.  Its all down to if Owen can stay injury free and if Jordan/Kyle/Dion can step well enough.

The HEC is beyond us even if we kept George and Fenby.

Yea maybe your right and maybe i'm over reacting. Barclay is a great signing, best we have made in years. However I jsut feel that we need to excel. Fenby is the biggest loss for me as he has always played great.
I don't really want to judge Helu or Locly really before I've seen them probably, i guess i was just expecting better well known players. Locky and helu aren't really going to make us competitive in Europe.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:If rumoured signings (McCaffrey, Timani and Tongan wing) are true, 8 in all 4 capped, 3 one year into residency

So that's at the limit, right? Assuming the 'intended' reduction hasn't happened.

Problem is with most of thes eproject players is that they ar enever going to be good enough to play for Wales. If they were good enough to play for their own country then they wouldn't be here. So they are just effectively taking up a space that a Welsh youngster could be using. The classic being the NZ who was at the Blues, second row, forgot his name. Qualified to play for Wales so wasn't taking up a NWQ spot but was never ever going to be good enough and when the time came said he didn't want to play for Wales anyway. So there you have someone who was still useless to club Wales but was great for the Blues because he was never going to be called up and they didn't breach the rules.

It needs tightening up. I don't mind 2 or 3 real quality internationals, but the regions have manipulated the project player thing to their advantage and the WRu were weak in the negotiations.

think it was paterson, who to be fair before coming over here he nearly broke into the NZ squad. gatland rated him highly, and he did a pretty good job for the blues when he wasn't injured. think he would have gone to japan with wales, if he hadn't decided to signed for sale....surprised he signed for them really, think he had more opportunities here in wales.

jersey and dragons are in the race to sign gough according to the evening post. the ospreys have giving their blessing for gough to find a few club, being well stocked at lock with AW Jones, Ianto, Rhodri Hughes & Lloyd Peers. Early reports indicate Gough who is from Panteg favours a move to the Dragons.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:If rumoured signings (McCaffrey, Timani and Tongan wing) are true, 8 in all 4 capped, 3 one year into residency

if we do go over quota i think we'll try and get around it but getting Manu & Timani placed at one of our feeder clubs like carmarthen quins. castell howell foods who are quins main sponsors would be able to fund both players - and the scarlets would benefit from be being able to get them in on permit if/when needed. manu only has a year of his contract remaining, but seems pretty settled in the area. can't see him moving too far once his contract expires at the end of next season.

pioden gorllewin wrote:jersey and dragons are in the race to sign gough according to the evening post. the ospreys have giving their blessing for gough to find a few club, being well stocked at lock with AW Jones, Ianto, Rhodri Hughes & Lloyd Peers. Early reports indicate Gough who is from Panteg favours a move to the Dragons.

As said previously, would be great to have him back at the Dragons. But saying that Newport or Jersey (with it's nicer weather and tax breaks) at the end of your career? Hmmm. However, if he's thinking forward in terms of coaching then maybe staying in Wales will put him in a good position for experience, progression, etc.

Didn't another former Welsh international sign for Jersey recently?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Didn't another former Welsh international sign for Jersey recently?

isn't barry davies over there? think a few welsh boys are/have played there, and tom brown just recently signed for them.

Yeah, Brown just signed from the Dragons. Ben Evans is there - remember him! David Bishop too (formerly of Dragons, brother of Andrew).

Matt Banahan was born and grew up there but not sure if he played for them.

DrNick - Paul Tito? You can't complain about people who are welsh qualified (even if it is though residency) for taking up space as they are not int. standards. Otherwise you would have to complain about the likes of Phil John (Sca), Gavin Evans/Daf Hewitt(Blues), Richard Fussel (Osp) and most the most the Dragons (at the moment) for playing as they are never going to be internationals but are regional first choice.

Pioden - yeah I assumed the work around would involve dumping them at a feeder (shocked its quins mind) and using them when required, which was not too much last season.


As for the Jersey being after Gough that would be a real slap in the chops for the Dragons, but I could understand him going over for a year or two, as Jersey seem to be a small side that are really pushing to climb the ladder. So i guess it comes down to if Gough wants to help the Dragons off the feild, and play occationally, or go to Jersey and stat more often.

Ben Evans is at Mosely & Barry Davies has just signed for Coventry who are now led by Scott Morgan the former Dragons & Blues lock

Ah OK Dragon, Ben Evans must have moved recently? Thought he was the coach?!

Dragons or jersey marine rfc for Goughy eh? Tough call....

On another thread it states that Helu the tongan wing scarlets were after has signed for wasps

Gough move to dragons has been put on hold at the present.

Yeah Wil Helu has signed for wasps, so we can cross him off our list. Were talking to Nic Cummins from WF too. But maybe McCaffery and Barclay will be our only signings this season. Although McCaffery deal not finalised yet.

dragon999 wrote:On another thread it states that Helu the tongan wing scarlets were after has signed for wasps

Oh I really hope so, I don't really fancy us signing him when we have young wings that really need to get on the field more often.

It wouldn't be the end of the world if we don't sign Gough. We could definitely use him and I think it would be a good fit for both parties, but it's not a make-or-break signing.

Pioden, is there any truth in the talk Cummins has missed his chance at jumping ship to france? I guess if McCaffrey does come, then Cummins can keep him company on the plane. Also I am sure Jake Ball would let them know that west wales is lovely with all this baking hot sun etc.

True there was interest in France for Cummins, but nothing materialised. That window has now shut. Still interest from us, but don't know a change in Australian coaches will influence his decision. With Digby Ioane going to France, maybe he'll fancy his chances and stay in OZ.

doctornickolas wrote:I always felt that thsi contract between the WRU and the regions was bottled by the WRU. Any contract that doesn't give specifics but just says thing like "intended" was always going to be used by the regions to stick 2 fingers up to the WRU. For Wales to have an agreement whereby our regions can have 8 non Welsh in just crazy. The next round of contracts it needs to be stated that the funding will be different each year depending on how many Welsh players you have. Anything over 3 and the region gets a massive cut. We pay the regions our money and the WRU not to fund overseas pension pots but to develop and play Welsh players.

Utter frickin nonsense

doctornickolas wrote:Problem is with most of thes eproject players is that they ar enever going to be good enough to play for Wales. If they were good enough to play for their own country then they wouldn't be here. So they are just effectively taking up a space that a Welsh youngster could be using. The classic being the NZ who was at the Blues, second row, forgot his name. Qualified to play for Wales so wasn't taking up a NWQ spot but was never ever going to be good enough and when the time came said he didn't want to play for Wales anyway. So there you have someone who was still useless to club Wales but was great for the Blues because he was never going to be called up and they didn't breach the rules.

It needs tightening up. I don't mind 2 or 3 real quality internationals, but the regions have manipulated the project player thing to their advantage and the WRu were weak in the negotiations.

More utter frickin nonsense

Stone Motif wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Problem is with most of thes eproject players is that they ar enever going to be good enough to play for Wales. If they were good enough to play for their own country then they wouldn't  be here. So they are just effectively taking up a space that a Welsh youngster could be using. The classic being the NZ who was at the Blues, second row, forgot his name. Qualified to play for Wales so wasn't taking up a NWQ spot but was never ever going to be good enough and when the time came said he didn't want to play for Wales anyway. So there you have someone who was still useless to club Wales but was great for the Blues because he was never going to be called up and they didn't breach the rules.

It needs tightening up. I don't mind 2 or 3 real quality internationals, but the regions have manipulated the project player thing to their advantage and the WRu were weak in the negotiations.

More utter frickin nonsense

With all due respect Stone Motif you are the biggest idiot on these boards so I won't lose any sleep over your comments. I suggest you try getting out of Newport now and again, the world doesn't end there you know. Now go back to shouting at the pigeons or arguing with your reflection in the mirror.

And what's wrong with Newport?? 

pioden gorllewin wrote:Wil Helu has signed for wasps, so we can cross him off our list. Were talking to Nic Cummins from WF too. But maybe McCaffery and Barclay will be our only signings this season. Although McCaffery deal not finalised yet..

I'm glad that Wil Helu has gone to Wasps; I don't want the Scarlets to sign another winger for next season as I believe they are very well covered on the wings for the 2013/2014 season with the likes of Lee Williams, Liam Williams, Jordan Williams, Dion Jones, Kristian Phillips, Aaron Warren, Nick Reynolds, Adam Warren, Kyle Evans, Jason Harries, Gareth Maule and others competing for berths there. That's at least eleven WQ players; I think we want to be careful where we want to spend our money and defenitely not sign a NWQ winger in Nic Cummins when we already have at least eleven players who can play on the wings (two berths) for the Scarlets next season.

I'm happy for the Scarlets to take the 'risk' of not signing another eight (that obviously means not signing Lachlan McCaffrey) for the 2013/2014 season, I think Craig Price, Rob McCusker, Sion Bennett and others are 'adequate' options there for next season.

Signing Jon Barclay was a mistake in my opinion as the Scarlets already have James Davies, Shaun Miles, Dan Thomas, Ellis Lloyd, Josh Turnbull, Aaron Shingler, Rob McCusker and others competing for the seven berth.

To me, it looks like the Scarlets have splashed out the cash on a seven when, in reality, they are well covered in the position already. I think it's best to be safe and not do the same with a winger and a number eight, or any other position at the Scarlets for next season.

If a French club comes with a big pay check to buy a NWQ player from one of the Welsh regions I think we should automatically accept it, however if they come to buy a WQ player from a Welsh region I think we should automatically reject it.

dragon999 wrote:Barry Davies has just signed for Coventry

Where was Barry Davies last season when the Ospreys had this so called 'injury crisis' in their back 3?

Disappointed that another WQ player has left Wales.

Playing for Jersey - do you honestly think that Barry is at the Osprey level anymore?

International do you honestly believe half the stuff you say? Of those 11 player vying for 2 wing berths you mentiined 1 has left the region, a number are not contracted to the Scarlets per ce, and a few of them are fullbacks, centres and fly halves. You obviously do your research to be able to list all these names, so surely you should have already known that though.

The same goes for your list of openside flankers. There is a big difference between being able to fill in at a push, and a specialist in a skilled position. Rob McGog proved that this season, the Scarlets satanic (666) backrow was shown up a few times.

Sometimes i think 197 is a Skynet testing it's AI on us unsuspecting humans.

I think International197 believes in the regions solely as developing grounds for the welsh team. And each to their own, I'm not going to say it's a wrong notion. But for me, I believe the regions have a dual purpose: to develop players for Wales and to try to compete domestically and in Europe for silverware. If we can do the latter then I think we're in a better position to do the former as we'll have players playing at the business end of top competitions where the standard is like international rugby. To do this I believe we need a blend of local welsh talent supplemented by quality overseas signings. If we only go for youngsters we don't progress much, the teams lose more than they win, do not get the experience of challenging for competitions and developing that winning mentality, fans stop coming as they're watching kids and no stars, income goes down and funds for new players, equipment, facilities goes down, and we get into a downward spiral.

At the Scarlets (the above example) there are enough wingers, of course, but are they good enough to score tries at the top level and deliver at the sharp end of European completion, I.e. compete with the best? If not then the rest of the team struggles, players then want away for successful teams and the player drain continues. This applies to all regions.

We need a blend - home grown young talent, welsh stars, some overseas signings - it all adds to the melting pot of a good team. Lets not flood the teams with foreigners, and the participation agreement limits that anyway (and it was agreed with he governing body so I can't see how they would cut funding if anyone has more than 3 NWQ - as suggested above), but lets try to improve our own players by bringing in players who have experience elsewhere, experience in Europe, experience of different systems and structures, or demonstrated great potential, and I think we'll stand a better chance of developing players for Wales both directly and indirectly.

My controversial statement for the night: I don't think it's any coincidence that the Ospreys are the most successful region in terms of silverware and recent HC progression, and probably have produced the most/best (arguably) players for Wales, and happen to be the team that has brought in the most high profile overseas signings - perhaps proof that overseas signings can bring on homegrown players (or certainly not limit them).

pioden gorllewin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:If rumoured signings (McCaffrey, Timani and Tongan wing) are true, 8 in all 4 capped, 3 one year into residency

if we do go over quota i think we'll try and get around it but getting Manu & Timani placed at one of our feeder clubs like carmarthen quins. castell howell foods who are quins main sponsors would be able to fund both players - and the scarlets would benefit from  be being able to get them in on permit if/when needed. manu only has a year of his contract remaining, but seems pretty settled in the area. can't see him moving too far once his contract expires at the end of next season.

I thought that the Scarlets had announced that Timani had been relased. Or are you talking about another Timani?

I agree that Scarlets have a problem recruiting quality Welsh players as the French and English are going to out bid them. So bringing in players like Delve and maybe Aled Brew to fill in obvious weaknesses at 8 and wing will be beyond them.

I am like the rest of you I don't understand the WRU NWQ player rule, particularly how "project players" are dealt with. Its a pity that the WRU did not come up with the £1M of extra funds to keep Welsh players in Wales before; North, Roberts and Lydiate left!

Glad we didn't sign Helu but we still need wingers we can't cope with what we have.