Bowe Holyfield 1

Watched this fight again today..What a fantastic spectacle. A couple of things struck me: 1) Holyfield's heart is the size of a wardrobe 2)Bowe looked absolutely the full package.. a couple of questions raised - Why did he put the belt in the bin? Bowe Lewis would have been THE defining fight for the victor, but who would the victor have been and why did Bowe fail to fulfill his potential?

Bowe just needed more of that Holyfield heart. Whether it was because of his loss to Lewis in the olympics or not wanting to get into any more wars he binned it because he didn't believe he could beat Lewis. That's my opinion anyway.

It would've been a good fight, but I'd heavily favour Lewis. We never saw Bowe in with any elite guys other than Holyfield, but against another big man and a heavy handed fighter in Golota he got whipped, soundly. He was of course in poor shape for the Golota fights which just casts further doubts on his ability to prepare for someone like Lewis.

very true... Bowe had all the tools, except THE tool..took this type of HW fight for granted back then and now we dream about them...

Bowe was an absolutely wonderful talent, never better than on that night against Holyfield in 1992. For an all too brief period, he moved beautifully for a 6'5", 235 lb man, had a jab which could have kept just about any Heavyweight in history at bay, and had a considerable whack on him to boot.

I've analyzed it from just about every single angle plenty of times over, and to me it's as clear as day that Bowe, despite being on the crest of the Heavyweight wave in 1992 / 1993, was very weary of Lewis, and juging by the confrontations between them, even a little intimidated by him, too. Oddly enough, I'd have fancied him to get the better of Lewis had they met at that stage - Lewis had similar tools to Bowe (not quite as nimble on his feet for my money, mind) but was as green as grass, becoming a far better all-round fighter after the stern test which Mercer supplied.

I read Holyfield's autobiography a couple of years back in which he claimed he may have been partly (and indirectly) responsible for Bowe not taking the Lewis fight, as he'd told Bowe to hold out for at least $15million from the fight. A nice little theory, but doesn't hold much water for me as I can't imagine Bowe's subsequent defences against Dokes and Ferguson making anywhere near that amount for him.

But either way, Holyfield-Bowe I was indeed as good a Heavyweight fight as you could wish to see, even worthy of comparisons to Ali-Frazier.

When on song, Bowe was the total package. I said here that Bowe had the beating of Lewis but got roundly chastised for saying that. If they both brought their A game, Bowe would KO Lewis imo.

Don't think Bowe had a hope in hell of beating Lewis, may have had the ability to win but he would have crumbled in the face of Lewis who was a far more aggressive fighter back then. Tend to think in terms of fight or flight that Bowe would have ran from Lewis all night unwilling to engage.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Don't think Bowe had a hope in hell of beating Lewis, may have had the ability to win but he would have crumbled in the face of Lewis who was a far more aggressive fighter back then. Tend to think in terms of fight or flight that Bowe would have ran from Lewis all night unwilling to engage.

He engaged pretty effectively against a peak and unbeaten Holyfield. He didn't flee when taking an absolutely beating (twice) against Golota. I dont buy this "chicken" Bowe opinion.

The one 'gut check' Lewis had was with Mercer who was an average boxer when they fought. Even then, many had Mercer winning.

Bowe didn't want to fight Lewis, plain and simple, this isn't about Holyfield, Mercer, Golota or anyone else it's what Bowe thought of Lewis that's important and what other reason was there to avoid him? Fights with Dokes and Ferguson wouldn't have provided anywhere near the same kind of money as a fight with Lewis.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Bowe didn't want to fight Lewis, plain and simple, this isn't about Holyfield, Mercer, Golota or anyone else it's what Bowe thought of Lewis that's important and what other reason was there to avoid him? Fights with Dokes and Ferguson wouldn't have provided anywhere near the same kind of money as a fight with Lewis.

No. This is a hypothetical discussion plain and simple. I said earlier that "If they both brought their A game, Bowe would KO Lewis imo."

And yes I do agree that Bowe ran from Lewis. I dont know why as he was the better professional fighter when at their respective peaks.

Bowe took low-risk fights for "good" paydays, and presumably, thought that there wold be more superfights further along down the road.
Rock Newman, as his manager, was known to pamper Riddick,so my guess is that he wanted to coast a bit, take the belt around the world, have a few fry-ups, and take on Lewis one day.
For what it's worth I tend to edge towards Bowe should they have met in 93,for the reasons Chris mentions above. It does seem that Bowe was "alarmed" by the prospect of fighting Lewis though.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Bowe didn't want to fight Lewis, plain and simple, this isn't about Holyfield, Mercer, Golota or anyone else it's what Bowe thought of Lewis that's important and what other reason was there to avoid him? Fights with Dokes and Ferguson wouldn't have provided anywhere near the same kind of money as a fight with Lewis.

Dokes was a former world champion, and Ferguson had just come off a career high win by outpointing Olympian Mercer. They were credible enough for the time, and Bowe was able to headline at MSG for the Dokes fight. I doubt that an unheralded British heavyweight, Olympian or not, would rake in the cash.

That, for me, was part of the reason this fight never came off at the time. Big risk, low reward. Bowe wasn't the smartest of guys (I read his IQ was so low he could qualify for the para-olympics, if they had boxing), so it was likely to have been planned by Newman. Another hard, blood and guts fight straight after the Holy war? Nah. Leave this one on the back burner, give Lewis a belt for credibility, get tongues wagging by publicly dumping the belt, and then beat Lewis in a mega fight somewhere down the line (remember, both were very young by modern heavyweight standards). There was plenty of time to cook up an absolute corker in a couple of years.
Pity no-one told Bowe, who went on an eating binge, and Lewis blew his credibility at the time fighting McCall.

For the record, I'd have bet on Bowe.

Thanks for the responses everyone - good stuff..

Bob wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Bowe didn't want to fight Lewis, plain and simple, this isn't about Holyfield, Mercer, Golota or anyone else it's what Bowe thought of Lewis that's important and what other reason was there to avoid him? Fights with Dokes and Ferguson wouldn't have provided anywhere near the same kind of money as a fight with Lewis.

Dokes was a former world champion, and Ferguson had just come off a career high win by outpointing Olympian Mercer. They were credible enough for the time, and Bowe was able to headline at MSG for the Dokes fight. I doubt that an unheralded British heavyweight, Olympian or not, would rake in the cash.

That, for me, was part of the reason this fight never came off at the time. Big risk, low reward. Bowe wasn't the smartest of guys (I read his IQ was so low he could qualify for the para-olympics, if they had boxing), so it was likely to have been planned by Newman. Another hard, blood and guts fight straight after the Holy war? Nah. Leave this one on the back burner, give Lewis a belt for credibility, get tongues wagging by publicly dumping the belt, and then beat Lewis in a mega fight somewhere down the line (remember, both were very young by modern heavyweight standards). There was plenty of time to cook up an absolute corker in a couple of years.
Pity no-one told Bowe, who went on an eating binge, and Lewis blew his credibility at the time fighting McCall.

For the record, I'd have bet on Bowe.

Bowe was tested and had an IQ of 79. Apparently it was as a result of brain injuries suffered in the ring. His licence application was refused as a result. Many people with learning difficulties have higher IQ than that.

Lets not hear anymore of him being a coward please.

Not a coward he got in the ring and fought.

I would have backed Bowe against Lewis if they were both on top form. Bowe had an awesome jab and could follow it up with some heavy right hands. Never had the heart in the ring, or discipline outside the ring to make himself an ATG which he could have been.

prettyboykev wrote:Not a coward he got in the ring and fought.

I would have backed Bowe against Lewis if they were both on top form. Bowe had an awesome jab and could follow it up with some heavy right hands. Never had the heart in the ring, or discipline outside the ring to make himself an ATG which he could have been.

One loss is all he had. And that was to an ATG. He won that series also. I wouldn't call him a heartless inside the ring also. He showed huge bravery in both Golota fights and the Holy trilogy. He was very badly managed by rock newman.

This is how he is now. So freaking sad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzUWIoK9k

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:Not a coward he got in the ring and fought.

I would have backed Bowe against Lewis if they were both on top form. Bowe had an awesome jab and could follow it up with some heavy right hands. Never had the heart in the ring, or discipline outside the ring to make himself an ATG which he could have been.

One loss is all he had. And that was to an ATG. He won that series also. I wouldn't call him a heartless inside the ring also. He showed huge bravery in both Golota fights and the Holy trilogy. He was very badly managed by rock newman.

This is how he is now. So freaking sad.

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzUWIoK9k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzUWIoK9k[/quote[/url]]

Maybe heart was the wrong word he just lacked something. Not sure if it may have been a bit of confidence or something because he had the tools.

BTW that link doesn't work.

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:Not a coward he got in the ring and fought.

I would have backed Bowe against Lewis if they were both on top form. Bowe had an awesome jab and could follow it up with some heavy right hands. Never had the heart in the ring, or discipline outside the ring to make himself an ATG which he could have been.

One loss is all he had. And that was to an ATG. He won that series also. I wouldn't call him a heartless inside the ring also. He showed huge bravery in both Golota fights and the Holy trilogy. He was very badly managed by rock newman.

This is how he is now. So freaking sad.

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzUWIoK9k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzUWIoK9k[/quote[/url]]

Maybe heart was the wrong word he just lacked something. Not sure if it may have been a bit of confidence or something because he had the tools.

BTW that link doesn't work.

I think he lacked self belief. The olympic loss played on his mind with Lewis and I dont believe he believed he had the beating of Lennox. The man had everything imo. Great fighter at range and equally good inside. You dont get many 6"5 guys who were excellent inside fighters.

Try this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzUWIoK9kIs&feature=relmfu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPdmAI30oOs&feature=channel_video_title

One of the best rounds in boxing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ooarvj6f_k

azania wrote:One of the best rounds in boxing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ooarvj6f_k

As a matter of interest, who would you have down as the winner of that round?

I watched both this fight and the rematch (with fanman) and they were both fantastic fights. Holy got lucky in the second fight as he seemed to be gassing out in the second fight before the intervention - thats what saved him (IMO).

As for best rounds of boxing ever, the other ones I would consider would have been Hagler/ Hearns and also the final two rounds of the doomed Eubank/ Watson fight (I know it ended tragically but at the time of watching, it was an incredible spectacle).

Hobo wrote:

azania wrote:One of the best rounds in boxing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ooarvj6f_k

As a matter of interest, who would you have down as the winner of that round?

I watched both this fight and the rematch (with fanman) and they were both fantastic fights. Holy got lucky in the second fight as he seemed to be gassing out in the second fight before the intervention - thats what saved him (IMO).

As for best rounds of boxing ever, the other ones I would consider would have been Hagler/ Hearns and also the final two rounds of the doomed Eubank/ Watson fight (I know it ended tragically but at the time of watching, it was an incredible spectacle).

Good question. I had that round as a draw to be honest.

As for the Eubank fight, I happened to be there and did not realise the turn of events. We all thought that Michael had been taken to hospital for precautionary tests and fully expected him to walk out the next day. How wrong we were. Round 11 was simply amazing, but I haven't been able to see that round again. Too painful.

Snakeyman123 wrote:Watched this fight again today..What a fantastic spectacle. A couple of things struck me: 1) Holyfield's heart is the size of a wardrobe 2)Bowe looked absolutely the full package.. a couple of questions raised - Why did he put the belt in the bin? Bowe Lewis would have been THE defining fight for the victor, but who would the victor have been and why did Bowe fail to fulfill his potential?

~ Sir, a wonderful fight, yes, plenty of heart, yes, good jab, yes, but Big Dumbo was never close to being the full package any more than Mr. Field was.

At least Mr. Field fought most contenders. Big Dumbo binned his belt for good reason sir, his management knew he was better suited to holding on to Big Macs than championship belts, and that's what happened, he lost every belt he held in spite of not fighting any more than fringe contenders aside from Mr. Fields.

Mr. Golota exposed him once and for all, yet Big Dumbo somehow comes up as this talent. Poor thing was never smart enough to do more than rule a kitchen or give up his career to go join the army so they could give him a proper boot in the keister back to his kitchen.

Have to disagree with you on that one Perfressor, if you think the best trilogy from the modern era of heavyweight fights is not that good-and that Holyfield was not that good-then you are disappearing up your own keister.

Perfessor Albertus Lion V wrote:

Snakeyman123 wrote:Watched this fight again today..What a fantastic spectacle. A couple of things struck me: 1) Holyfield's heart is the size of a wardrobe 2)Bowe looked absolutely the full package.. a couple of questions raised - Why did he put the belt in the bin? Bowe Lewis would have been THE defining fight for the victor, but who would the victor have been and why did Bowe fail to fulfill his potential?

~ Sir, a wonderful fight, yes, plenty of heart, yes, good jab, yes, but Big Dumbo was never close to being the full package any more than Mr. Field was.

At least Mr. Field fought most contenders. Big Dumbo binned his belt for good reason sir, his management knew he was better suited to holding on to Big Macs than championship belts, and that's what happened, he lost every belt he held in spite of not fighting any more than fringe contenders aside from Mr. Fields.

Mr. Golota exposed him once and for all, yet Big Dumbo somehow comes up as this talent. Poor thing was never smart enough to do more than rule a kitchen or give up his career to go join the army so they could give him a proper boot in the keister back to his kitchen.

Strange man.

I think you have to heavily favour the Bowe from the early 90s over Lewis from the same period.

Bowe looked far more complete and handled a then unbeaten Holyfield better than Lewis did years later when he is considered close to his best.

I think Bowe was more well rounded then. Had most of what Lewis had but I would give him advantage in the chin and inside fighting departments and Lewis the edge in power.

Ive also read the Holyfield autobiography where he mentions telling Bowe to hold out for more money against Lewis but the implication I took was that Bowe wanted a couple of easy defences after the Holyfield fight with an eye on a lucrative rematch with Holyfield down the line.

He goes downhill pretty rapidly and I think his later performances against Golota are clearly a case of him just lacking application. Hard to see him beating Lewis post 1995. Pre 1995 I favour Bowe, post 1995 I favour Lewis.

manos de piedra wrote:Hard to see him beating Lewis post 1995. Pre 1995 I favour Bowe, post 1995 I favour Lewis.

Agree mainly with this Manos. Still a mouthwatering match-up though and there was always that nagging doubt about Riddick - I reckon he was always wary of Lewis after the Olympics and it played on his mind. He may well have had the tools to beat Lennox, just not the balls and heart to believe he could. That's why he turned it down - self-belief

Mr Bounce wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Hard to see him beating Lewis post 1995. Pre 1995 I favour Bowe, post 1995 I favour Lewis.

Agree mainly with this Manos. Still a mouthwatering match-up though and there was always that nagging doubt about Riddick - I reckon he was always wary of Lewis after the Olympics and it played on his mind. He may well have had the tools to beat Lennox, just not the balls and heart to believe he could. That's why he turned it down - self-belief

Its possible of course, but on the surface it would seem pretty strange to me at that point. Lewis had the edge on Bowe as an amateur as it was his second Olympics final when they met and only Bowes first. But around the 1993 mark I believe Bowe had overtaken him in the pro ranks. After beating an unbeaten Holyfield you would think he would not have much to fear from Lewis who was pretty green at the time. I find it hard to say what the extent of the issue was. We tend to think of Lewis now with hindsight but around the 1993 time it wasnt the Lewis from later years and the fact he would struggle with Mercer and lose to McCall in the coming years wouldnt really lead me to believe he would beat Bowe then (assuming Bowe was properly prepared). I have always tended to think Bowe recognised Lewis as a threat but I also think his decision to not fight him was based on financial ones and he wanted a rematch with Holyfield instead which was big business then and being called for by the public. In the meantime he wanted an easy low risk defence as opposed to a tough challenge like Lewis which could jeopardise a mega rematch with Holyfield.

andygf wrote:Have to disagree with you on that one Perfressor, if you think the best trilogy from the modern era of heavyweight fights is not that good-and that Holyfield was not that good-then you are disappearing up your own keister.

~ Dear me sir, could you not comprehend that I stated the first fight was a wonderful fight with great heart and a good jab by Big Dumbo?

Yes, the trilogy was epic, but it was fought closer to the clubfighter level than two supremely finely tuned boxing masters at battle.

It staggers the axis of the Milky Way that anyone would think Big Dumbo was ever the full package given his weakling schedule. Jumpin' Osamas, sir, Mr. Hide almost whacked him out but for running out of steam on top of a weak chin.

Now, Mr. Field did indeed look like the real package until he stumbled onto the unified belts by dumb accident, and quickly lost everything he had but for his cast iron chin and will. His struggles against past prime Foreman, Cooper, and Holmes exposed him well before Big Dumbo. Foreman deserved the win for sure as he swept the last rounds with Mr. Field hanging onto him like a sack of glue.

I dare say Tex Cobb could have easily given Mr. Field as good a scrap as Big Dumbo, but regardless, proof is in their records and their fights sir. Fine fighters at a certain level, but not up to elite standards by a long shot.

Well, the Hide scrap was three years later than the first Fields fight, he was more of a lumbering beast by that point. Interesting that you think Foreman had done enough to decision E.H. You are not alone in that viewpoint ,however I think it is stretching the point a little. Holy wanted to keep well away from the big guy, and who can blame him?Foreman did indeed have the upper hand as the fight ended, with the moral victory surely his.
Club level fight? Would that we could see more scraps of htat calibre these days, Perfessor, would that we could..