Lions Player Ratings (vs Reds)

First topic message reminder :

That was a far sterner test than anything the Lions have faced before.

Here are my ratings. Please feel free to disagree!

Hogg: 6 – Good positioning, defence and kicking but tried too hard to spark something
Cuthbert: 5 – Pretty disappointing. Got found out for pace on several occasions and missed tackles
Tuilagi: N/A - Went off early
Davies: 6 – Very quiet
Bowe: 8 – Really good game, cut great lines and has probably claimed the test shirt
Farrell: 7 – Much more rounded game and performance. Up'n'unders were poor though
B Youngs: 7 – Claimed his try well and looked solid if unspectacular
Vunipola: 7 – Another good solid game in the loose and scrum
T Youngs: 7 – Hit his jumpers and scrummaged very well
Stevens: 5 – Anonymous once again and knocked on a couple of times. Looks off the pace
Gray: 8 – The stand out forward, was everywhere and supreme in the lineout and rucks
Parling: 5 – A day to forget. Knocked on twice and looked very out of sorts
Lydiate: 6 – Very quiet
Warburton: 6 – Looked very rusty and not his usual poaching self
Faletau: 7 – Did quite a lot in the loose and tackled well

Notable Replacements:
Tipuric: 7 – Looked very good when he came on
Sexton: 7 - Calmed proceedings
North: 8 – Looked dangerous every time he touched the ball. Probable test starter

Risca Rev wrote:

BamBam wrote:Am I imagining things or did I see Warburton handed off by the winger (Mornahan?) for the first try?

Not the kind of marker we want put down by our leader

Disagree, yes he was but I fail to see how he could've done better given he was always playing catchup with him. Winger outpaces flanker shocker hey.

He was close enough to make the tackle though at this point, Rev. His rather poor attempt was handed off, though.

Metal Tiger wrote:Based on todays performances the test back row should be Croft, Heaslip & Tipuric.

Although Croft may be because of my Tiger Specs.

You can't pick the test side on the basis of a performance against a woefully poor Western Farce! This game today was the first game against quality opposition, lets see the likes of Croft, O'Brien, Heaslip and O'Driscoll against decent opposition before picking them as test starters

Fair comment actually. They might not be so effective against a stronger defensive structure.

I wouldn't necessarily blame Warburton for the try (though it wasn't a great attempt). It was Cuthbert's real error.

Lions backrow was pretty poor at the breakdown today. It will be interesting to see how other options shape up. I guess Warburton will play in the test as he's captain. Hmmm.

Risca Rev wrote:

BamBam wrote:Am I imagining things or did I see Warburton handed off by the winger (Mornahan?) for the first try?

Not the kind of marker we want put down by our leader

Disagree, yes he was but I fail to see how he could've done better given he was always playing catchup with him. Winger outpaces flanker shocker hey.

Exactly he's getting a bunch of flack for not chasing down a winger successfully, whereas a back (I think B Youngs) gave up the chase long before Warbs did, anyone holding this against him is a moron

Great game earlier, lovely play by both team and the Reds are a credit to themselves and their squad/coaches. Great outfit.

NB: 1=Worst performance you have ever seen. 5=Completely average (not bad, not good, average). 10=Best performance you have ever seen.

Vuni - 7.5
Really good stuff, not a bad scrummager as many feared, great ball carrier, picks good lines and has an offload too.

Youngs - 6.5
Lots of tackles, good from touch, not a bad carrier either. Looked positive in everything he did.

Stevens - 4
Not awful but looked lazy outside of the scrum, when Cole came on the difference was immediate and very noticeable.

Gray - 7
A couple of lineout steals, good work on our ball, carried well and really shifted some of the Reds at ruck time. Puts a lot in to the scrums too.

Parling - 6
Another couple of lineout steals. Pretty good at the ruck but not as effective with ball in hand. A good performance but nothing more.

Lydiate - 5.5
Made a lot of tackles but didn't do much else. Not a huge impact at the breakdown, carried poorly and in general didn't offer much other than that very impressive defense.

Warbs - 4
Looked really lethargic. He is just back but The Lions needs big performances immediately. Not much impact at breakdown, linked quite well at times and just looked off the pace.

Faleteau - 5
Had an ok game, carried well but made a number of errors. Also very good support player and he will start receiving those offloads. Needs to control better at the base of the scrum.

Youngs - 7
Didn't look great when the team were going backwards, but he was so sharp going forward. Great speed and accuracy of pass and he's so creative. Makes things happen.

Farrell - 6.5
Looked very bad in the first 20, bad decision making and execution of basics but grew in to the game, great support running, basics improved and became quite creative. Did miss a fair few tackles however.

Bowe -


Davies - 5
Looked good at times and poor at others. Showed he can be great an I like his playing style but needs to demonstrate some consistency pretty quick.

Tuilagi -


Cuthbert - 4
Showed up in terms of pace a few times. Didn't go looking for work as often as he has in the past. Went down a few pegs in this game unfortunately.

Hogg - 4.5
Showed he can be really good with ball in hand, running it back and also with booming kicks but his decision making at times looked very poor. One of my favourite players on tour but is losing out to 1/2p.


Other:

Cole - 8
Looked excellent in scrum and breakdown

Sexton - 7
Controlled things the way Farrell wasn't. Some really nice tactical kicking.

North - 8
Really good broken field running, defended much better than Cuthbert.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I wouldn't necessarily blame Warburton for the try (though it wasn't a great attempt). It was Cuthbert's real error.

Lions backrow was pretty poor at the breakdown today. It will be interesting to see how other options shape up. I guess Warburton will play in the test as he's captain. Hmmm.

Well.....there were a few errors:

1: Why did Farrell make that kick? Only one chaser, even if he had won the ball, what then? Bad decision.

2: Cuthbert missed the tackle badly, he could have eased off and not committed as much as he did.

3: Youngs got stepped and Warbs got handed off.

NB: Warbs, Stevens and Vuniploa were all jogging until they realised that they were the ones who then had to make the tackle. That was the thing that got me most about it.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I wouldn't necessarily blame Warburton for the try (though it wasn't a great attempt). It was Cuthbert's real error.

Lions backrow was pretty poor at the breakdown today. It will be interesting to see how other options shape up. I guess Warburton will play in the test as he's captain. Hmmm.

Well.....there were a few errors:

1: Why did Farrell make that kick? Only one chaser, even if he had won the ball, what then? Bad decision.

2: Cuthbert missed the tackle badly, he could have eased off and not committed as much as he did.

3: Youngs got stepped and Warbs got handed off.

NB: Warbs, Stevens and Vuniploa were all jogging until they realised that they were the ones who then had to make the tackle. That was the thing that got me most about it.

It was also good play by Morahan.

Seagultaf wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:Based on todays performances the test back row should be Croft, Heaslip & Tipuric.

Although Croft may be because of my Tiger Specs.

You can't pick the test side on the basis of a performance against a woefully poor Western Farce! This game today was the first game against quality opposition, lets see the likes of Croft, O'Brien, Heaslip and O'Driscoll against decent opposition before picking them as test starters

I can pick whoever I want. And unlike most of your bretheren who have had Lydiate, Faleteau & Warburton nailed on for the jersey before a game was ever played, I disagree with that certaintity.

Looseheaded wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

BamBam wrote:Am I imagining things or did I see Warburton handed off by the winger (Mornahan?) for the first try?

Not the kind of marker we want put down by our leader

Disagree, yes he was but I fail to see how he could've done better given he was always playing catchup with him. Winger outpaces flanker shocker hey.

Exactly he's getting a bunch of flack for not chasing down a winger successfully, whereas a back (I think B Youngs) gave up the chase long before Warbs did, anyone holding this against him is a moron

I'm not questioning his effort and speed in getting back, but once in that position he should not have been handed off as easily as he was, considering he is a top quality flanker tackling a decent winger.

Not everything is a personal attack on the Welsh, so why you feel the need to describe someone as a moron is beyond me.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:I wouldn't necessarily blame Warburton for the try (though it wasn't a great attempt). It was Cuthbert's real error.

Lions backrow was pretty poor at the breakdown today. It will be interesting to see how other options shape up. I guess Warburton will play in the test as he's captain. Hmmm.

Well.....there were a few errors:

1: Why did Farrell make that kick? Only one chaser, even if he had won the ball, what then? Bad decision.

2: Cuthbert missed the tackle badly, he could have eased off and not committed as much as he did.

3: Youngs got stepped and Warbs got handed off.

NB: Warbs, Stevens and Vuniploa were all jogging until they realised that they were the ones who then had to make the tackle. That was the thing that got me most about it.

It was also good excellent play by Morahan.

Interesting looking at the player stats. Farrell missed the most tackles (3) followed by Warburton and Hogg (2).

madmaccas wrote:Interesting looking at the player stats. Farrell missed the most tackles (3) followed by Warburton and Hogg (2).

I can remember Farrell missing 2 very bad ones, one on Cooper and one on Harris

[quote="madmaccas"]
Here are my ratings. Please feel free to disagree!

Hogg: 8 - Turned a defensive position into an attack a few times and kicked well.
Cuthbert: 5 - Got found out defensively.
Tuilagi: N/A
Davies: 5 - Butchered a try when he kicked too far ahead.
Bowe: 8 - Ran some good lines as usual and switched positions and still looked comfortable.
Farrell: 6 - Not a bad game from Farrell but he only cemented his spot as a backup.
B Youngs: 7 - He played alright in tough conditions.
Vunipola: 5 - Poor workrate and was possibly another to blame for the first Reds try.
T Youngs: 7 - His throwing was very good.
Stevens: 7 – The scrum went well.
Gray: 8 – Had a very good first half.
Parling: 6 – Worked hard but made little impact.
Lydiate: 6 – Didn't see much of him but he did work hard.
Warburton: 6 – Tries hard, nearly got a try but looked a bit tired, understandably.
Faletau: 6 – Few carries.

Notable Replacements:
Tipuric: N/A – Not on long enough
Sexton: 7 - Controlled the game well
North: 9 – Made a great impact.

Team for Wednesday?????????

Grant-Hibbard-Cole
POC-AWJ
SOB-Heaslip-Tipuric
Philips-Sexton
Roberts-BOD
<New wing>-Kearney-Maitland

Hogg got Cooper one on one a few times as well which is not easy as well as that as a full back a lot of missed tackle probably come from diving for ones he would never get.

Disappointing from Hogg I think but he will have learned a hell of a lot form that game. He will have never experienced such a busy first 40 minutes and he generally coped with it admirably - the amount of covering, tracking, tackling and carrying he did. I think that took a lot out of him though so the second half he struggled.

What was most disappointing is that in the past 2 games he's not really been on the end of any of these breaks - he maybe needs to spend more time taking a risk and looking for the breaks.

For a 20 year old he's doing pretty good, but rightly behind 1/2P. However he still has a key part to play in the tour, I just want him to get some ball in space without an entire team lined up in front of him!!

I don't think you can criticise anyone for being on the wrong end of a hand-off occasionally. If someone pulls it off properly with a good strong arm there is often naff all you can do about it....physics means either you fall off the tackle, or they get propelled away from you!

On an aside.....Quade Cooper may be a complete boobie, but he is one of the most outrageously naturally talented players I've ever had the pleasure of watching. It's an over-used term, but he really does seem to have so much time of the ball compared to anyone else on the pitch.

I'm not going to say too much on this, some very good pluses......but to give Parling a 5 is to show a complete lack of knowledge of 2nd row play. I was never his biggest fan but for me he's looking the stand out 2nd row to partner O'Connel right now. Also Warburton didn't look half bad considering the rust, Lydiate tackled like a machine.....but they're both 6's....can't have them both in the side for me...

Absolute statements like that bug me I have to say.. "if you don't agree with my opinion on this you clearly know nothing about that"

I think Parling was decent and did his job, but Gray offered more in all aspects. Line-out play, the tackle area, the breakdown, scrummaging. He was excellent. Parling made a few mistakes also.

soz like.....played there many a year....grey and parling are you fancy dan 2nd rows........not so much a physical threat, no real physical intimidation, parling plays the tight role better whilst still being the line out option....
falateau knocked on three times. still had a stormer......
you're right tho grey was decent today. parling however, much as i don't like saying it, is rapidly becoming the most consistant all round lock in the nh. Not that our opinions matter. It'll be AWJ and POC.
I stick with my statement on your experience of 2nd row play however. Hope it don't bug you too much

I thought Gray played the physical side of things perfectly. In fact this game didn't show his "fancy" side at all really, something that he will likely show more against Australia alongside POC. He was very much involved in the tight exchanges for this game and he did very well. I know what 2nd row play involves, and Gray excelled in this area. His dynamism is just an added bonus, and we didn't even see that side of him today.

I'm not sure how much more intimidating a 6 foot 10, 130kg person can be really. He is very physical, knocks players back with relative ease, and adds huge physicality to the breakdown that few can match.

Faletau knocked on three times and was also just decent. He didn't have a stormer at all in my opinion.

the biggest plus for me was the intensity of the match which will stand players in good stead:

Hogg - 6 - missed a couple of tackles and too the wrong decisions to run and got caught
Cuthbert - 5 - suprised to see him chased down in his almost try. Is still a defensive liability and wont start the tests.
Tuilagi - N/A
Davies - 6 - solid enough some good some bad
Bowe - 8 - looked classy and cut some great angles to switch the point of attack
Farell - 7 - did well generally but some poor decision making when kicking
youngs - 8 - kept sniping and his pick and go's sucked defenders in in a way that Mike Phillips doesnt, very close between him and phillips for tests.

faletau - 6 - played himself into second position for test game, spilled ball in contact 2-3 times turning ball over. Defensively sound. depends on how the lions want to aproach the tests.
warburton - 6 - anonymous for large parts, needs a BIG second game.
Lydiate - 6 - does what he did but nothing spectacular, could lose out to obrien if the lions want an attacking/ball carrying 6 for the tests.
Parling - 7 - a nuisannce in the line out and carried well, close between him and AWJ for 3rd choice lock and a test bench birth.
Gray - 8 - carried well, tackled well and disrupted line out ball ,a test starter for me.
Stevens - 6 - solid scrum and little else can flop at rucks
Youngs - 7 - hit line outs and put himself about close between him and hibbard for tests.
Vunipolo - 8 - very good game again certain for test.

North - 8 - good game great running and skills.
Sexton - 7 - good

As for my "complete lack of knowledge on second row play", to me the tight 5 as a whole are primarily there to win the ball for the better attacking players (the backs). A strong tight 5 should be dominant in the scrum, line-out, maul and breakdown. Like I said dynamism and playmaking ability is an added bonus to these requirements.

This is how the SH like to select their tight 5 options also, with these requirements in mind.

15. Hogg - great pace and tries to exploit space, needs to learn his wingers game, should also look for more work in attack. Good performance though. 6

14. Cuthbert - Another good performance in attack, but was victim of the lions poor defencively tactics. 6

13. Tuilagi - looked good while he was on.

12. Davies - another very tidy performance, shows great skills in attack, nice passing good pace. 7

11. Bowe - great while he was on. Shame about the injury

10. Farrell - 2nd start and he fluffed another try and have the Reds winger the ball with another aimless kick. He made a few tidy breaks but Youngs was struggling to find him several times, his position is awful, he doesnt boss the line in attack. Yet, despite two good solo breaks, he again didnt impress, this level appears beyond his ability we need better cover for the tests. 4

9. Youngs - very nice performance, lively worked hard, Rab the game. Kicked and passed superbly and is really pushing hard for a test spot. His try was not a try, it was a knock on. But he was alert enough to create the situation and for that I give him a lot of credit. 8

8. Faletau - hard working, tackling furiously, if only Sam had looked left after he took the pass from north, Toby was there.

7. Warburton - Great support play, a few turnovers caused the reds lots of issues at the breakdown. Not his best game, but a good performance. 7

6 Lydiate - His tackle count will be very very high. Good hard working performance. 7

5. Parling- good work at the set piece, stole line outs a few times at the start. Pretty anonymous outside the set piece, doesn't carry much and doesn't tackle much. 6

4. Gray - another superb performance. He wa everywhere, fast and smart in attack and tackled furiously in defence 8

3. Stevens- the scrum went well. 5

2. Youngs- great game, looked for work, put himself about great line outs and scrummaging. Really good game 8

1. Vinni - really enjoying this tour, has pretty much played every minute of rugby and looks tireless. A great player in the loose and a really hard worker in the tight. 8



Hibbard - not on for long but looked ok 6

Cole - wrong side of the scrum for him but he looked good 6

Jones - only on for a little while but seemed ok 6

POC - only on for a little while but his impact is obvious. He won the penalty at the end, he's smart, a leader and he doesn't make mistakes 7

Tips - only on for a while but he got about well and made some good tackles. I would advise him to change the colour of his scrum cap though. He's too easy to spot. 6

Sexton - added composure to the team when he came on 6

North - superb, fast, strong, smart would have been the best back on the field if Youngs hadn't been so classy.


Overal performance though is not a resounding success. The lions defencively tactics are awful, we are conceding breaks in the line like a leaking damn. Set piece is good, attack is good. 5 would have been less if the open field running of North, Cuthbert, Bowe and Watburton hadn't been so good.

BamBam wrote:Am I imagining things or did I see Warburton handed off by the winger (Mornahan?) for the first try?

Not the kind of marker we want put down by our leader

Why is everyone so determined to slag off Warburton. Give the guy a chance!

SOB ran out of the line for Western Force's first try and it hardly got mentioned. Warburton is not the tackle busting player SOB is - that's not his game but he had a solid game tonight and nearly scored a fantastic try.

I would go for 6 SOB, 7 Warburton, 8 Heaslip on what I have seen so far. You could also switch Warbuton to 6 and SOB to 7 - that is what I really like about that combination. Tipiuric then to come off the bench for the last 20!

Many people were clearly unsure about the selection of Warburton as captain. So his performances were always going to be highly scrutinized. The fact that he's been recovering from an injury has made things worse. Because he's just back from many weeks out he's obviously rusty and his performance today didn't look as good as what either O'Brien or Tipuric have done at 7.

Hopefully he just needs a couple of games to be back to he his best. Because at his best he's great. But I seem to remember it took him quite a long time to play himself back into form after his last injury, which is a worry

Feckless Rogue wrote:Many people were clearly unsure about the selection of Warburton as captain. So his performances were always going to be highly scrutinized. The fact that he's been recovering from an injury has made things worse. Because he's just back from many weeks out he's obviously rusty and his performance today didn't look as good as what either O'Brien or Tipuric have done at 7.

Hopefully he just needs a couple of games to be back to he his best. Because at his best he's great. But I seem to remember it took him quite a long time to play himself back into form after his last injury, which is a worry

I would be keen to see Warburton and Tipuric again. They were a superb combination in the six nations.

At the end of the day guys it doesn't matter if someone was injured or is rusty, we should not care. It is about playing well under whatever circumstances. Just get it done.

Warbs will get another chance or two before the test and nobody cares that he was missing for a bit, he has to play better. Simple as.

I would also like to see Warbs and Tipuric start together at some point. Preferably with Heaslip to provide a lineout option.

maestegmafia wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Many people were clearly unsure about the selection of Warburton as captain. So his performances were always going to be highly scrutinized. The fact that he's been recovering from an injury has made things worse. Because he's just back from many weeks out he's obviously rusty and his performance today didn't look as good as what either O'Brien or Tipuric have done at 7.

Hopefully he just needs a couple of games to be back to he his best. Because at his best he's great. But I seem to remember it took him quite a long time to play himself back into form after his last injury, which is a worry

I would be keen to see Warburton and Tipuric again. They were a superb combination in the six nations.

They played ONE game together against England, the Wales front 5 dominated the set piece, had England front 5 matched Wales the two 7's may have backfired. It may work against Aust but it should be tried in the second or third test.

wanderingdragon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Am I imagining things or did I see Warburton handed off by the winger (Mornahan?) for the first try?

Not the kind of marker we want put down by our leader

Why is everyone so determined to slag off Warburton. Give the guy a chance!

SOB ran out of the line for Western Force's first try and it hardly got mentioned. Warburton is not the tackle busting player SOB is - that's not his game but he had a solid game tonight and nearly scored a fantastic try.

I would go for 6 SOB, 7 Warburton, 8 Heaslip on what I have seen so far. You could also switch Warbuton to 6 and SOB to 7 - that is what I really like about that combination. Tipiuric then to come off the bench for the last 20!

As I said earlier, its not slagging him off, its pointing something that I felt he would be expected to do if he was at top form. I want him to do as well as possible for the Lions, as much as any of the Welsh fans do

Its not a personal attack!

glamorganalun wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Many people were clearly unsure about the selection of Warburton as captain. So his performances were always going to be highly scrutinized. The fact that he's been recovering from an injury has made things worse. Because he's just back from many weeks out he's obviously rusty and his performance today didn't look as good as what either O'Brien or Tipuric have done at 7.

Hopefully he just needs a couple of games to be back to he his best. Because at his best he's great. But I seem to remember it took him quite a long time to play himself back into form after his last injury, which is a worry

I would be keen to see Warburton and Tipuric again. They were a superb combination in the six nations.

They played ONE game together against England, the Wales front 5 dominated the set piece, had England front 5 matched Wales the two 7's may have backfired. It may work against Aust but it should be tried in the second or third test.

They have played together and always look to compliment each other superbly. I have been very convinced this should be our backrow. Likely with SOB as bench.

I think itll be good to see these guys against the Tah's

It's been mentioned above but there's a hilarious number of generalisations thrown around by people based on apparently how good players were in the last couple of games - the first was match played in a Turkish bath, the second against a laughably weak Force side who had a number of individuals that had never set foot on a Super Rugby field before. Do you really think that a comparison between the games holds any water whatsoever?

The Reds starting 15 had 9 full cap internationals and the bench had 3 more. Those people thumbing their nose at Hogg, Cuthbert and Parling are living in boobieland if they think that the Lions XV who took on the Force would have looked better than the Lions team playing today in any material respect.

somebodywhodoesn'tlikefarrell wrote:10. Farrell - 2nd start and he fluffed another try and have the Reds winger the ball with another aimless kick. He made a few tidy breaks but Youngs was struggling to find him several times, his position is awful, he doesnt boss the line in attack. Yet, despite two good solo breaks, he again didnt impress, this level appears beyond his ability we need better cover for the tests. 4

I've been waiting for this. Jeez

ultra wrote:soz like.....played there many a year........
I stick with my statement on your experience of 2nd row play however. Hope it don't bug you too much

And I here I've been thinking 2nd rows were just lanky circus freaks for us to laugh at all these years!

Fair enough to pull the position card, just as long as you never comment on any players in other positions.

Dan Lydiate a 6. REALLY
best gae he has had since he has come back, yes he was quite but that's what he is like, he made his away around the park and by god made some goos tackles. His defence set the Queensland red back a few times.
Bit harsh

The thing with the Warburton tackle on Mohoran was just that is was a bad tackle. He went far to high and really did his best to head butt Mohoran's hand off. It just summed up his game really as his body positioning was all over the place and he really got mugged off at the breakdown. Very poor, very rusty performance particularly with his support lines.

Faletau looked every bit a Championship level player. An 8 who can't make yards in the tight, can't pass, can't offload, can't run a simple pick off the pack of the scrum draw the flanker and pass to the 9, can't take contact without knocking on or getting turned over. He tackled well but otherwise was a waste of space. He needs a boot up his backside.

Tom Youngs and Vunipola shone up front. Gray looks like he has re found his form and we haven't seen enough of that before this tour so that's a positive.

In the backs Ben Youngs did practically everything right, he was creative, combative (a very Phillips esque try) and skillful. Bowe and North looked very classy and losing Bowe is a real blow.

formerly known as Sam wrote:The thing with the Warburton tackle on Mohoran was just that is was a bad tackle. He went far to high and really did his best to head butt Mohoran's hand off. It just summed up his game really as his body positioning was all over the place and he really got mugged off at the breakdown. Very poor, very rusty performance particularly with his support lines.

Faletau looked every bit a Championship level player. An 8 who can't make yards in the tight, can't pass, can't offload, can't run a simple pick off the pack of the scrum draw the flanker and pass to the 9, can't take contact without knocking on or getting turned over. He tackled well but otherwise was a waste of space. He needs a boot up his backside.

Tom Youngs and Vunipola shone up front. Gray looks like he has re found his form and we haven't seen enough of that before this tour so that's a positive.

In the backs Ben Youngs did practically everything right, he was creative, combative (a very Phillips esque try) and skillful. Bowe and North looked very classy and losing Bowe is a real blow.

faletau didnt have a great game and did spill the ball in contact but is not deserving that sort of put down

Any one else get sick of the praise for Lydiate tackling all game long? He's a fricking backrow player, tackling should be his bread and butter!! Any other 6 could rack up huge tackle stats if they never have to worry about carrying, rucking or offering anything else to their team.

He's a more limited version of Worsley without the piano skills.

yappysnap wrote:Any one else get sick of the praise for Lydiate tackling all game long? He's a fricking backrow player, tackling should be his bread and butter!! Any other 6 could rack up huge tackle stats if they never have to worry about carrying, rucking or offering anything else to their team.

He's a more limited version of Worsley without the piano skills.

You're not allowed to say that

Well it is a standard argument:

"XXXX" was rubbish say posters who want someone else selected.
"No he wasn't" say his defenders
"Yes he was, he was anonymous, and <insert another "crime">"
"No he wasn't he was the only person to tackle/make a break/win lineout (deleter as appropriate)"
"Yes but he did not do....."
"Ah but he is world class at...."


Rinse and repeat.

In this case Lydiate was decent, against the only decent opposition so far.

faletau didnt have a great game and did spill the ball in contact but is not deserving that sort of put down

Gav, I like Faletau, I like an 8 to be a physical work horse who can mix it in the tight and the loose. In the modern game there is a requirement to have some footballing skills and good hands. Toby delivered the defensive half of that remit (though I'd like to see him smashing some rucks trying to force a turnover) but in attack he was completely dire. He offered none of the traits I listed. That's not good enough for an international 8, he butchered the chance after England were opting for the scrums 5m out, it should be an 8s bread and butter to pick up the ball draw a flanker and pop to the 9 from the base of the scrum. Youngs AMD North were up against a solitary defender 5m out it was as good as a try.

Having seen the big guy in the 6N I had expectations but he didn't deliver. Ditto Warburton, Lydiate provided the Worsley impersonation I expected.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

faletau didnt have a great game and did spill the ball in contact but is not deserving that sort of put down

Gav, I like Faletau, I like an 8 to be a physical work horse who can mix it in the tight and the loose. In the modern game there is a requirement to have some footballing skills and good hands. Toby delivered the defensive half of that remit (though I'd like to see him smashing some rucks trying to force a turnover) but in attack he was completely dire. He offered none of the traits I listed. That's not good enough for an international 8, he butchered the chance after England were opting for the scrums 5m out, it should be an 8s bread and butter to pick up the ball draw a flanker and pop to the 9 from the base of the scrum. Youngs AMD North were up against a solitary defender 5m out it was as good as a try.

Having seen the big guy in the 6N I had expectations but he didn't deliver. Ditto Warburton, Lydiate provided the Worsley impersonation I expected.

he has great hands and good feet and if you ever see him get tackled by a single first up tackler please point me in the direction of the video...he usualy takes at least two people to take him down..

however today his contact skills were poor and he has not produced the barnstorming bullocking runs that heaslip and o brien have done on tour thus far..for this reason I put him behind heaslip, although I think we should acknowledge that todays opposition were a step up and I honestly dont remember the last time heaslip performed to that standard at test level...

what I mean is to refer to him as 'a champsionship player at best' is a bit OTT IMO

Unless Warburton produces a stunner in his next game there is going to be an issue with the cpataincy and 7 spot..so I agree with you there

with regards to lydiate yes I agree with you he wasnt brilliant he did what he does and tackle....tbh it will depend on how the management want to play if they want a back row that will carry and attack the wallabies they will go with o brien or maybe croft, if they want a defensive BR they will go with lydiate

If they expect to beat the Aussie front 5 I would expect to see SOB or Croft at 6 - SOB if they are driving round the fringes, Croft if they expect to go wide.

If however they expect to see parity up front, then I expect Lydiate to play.

LondonTiger wrote:Well it is a standard argument:

"XXXX" was rubbish say posters who want someone else selected.
"No he wasn't" say his defenders
"Yes he was, he was anonymous, and <insert another "crime">"
"No he wasn't he was the only person to tackle/make a break/win lineout (deleter as appropriate)"
"Yes but he did not do....."
"Ah but he is world class at...."


Rinse and repeat.

In this case Lydiate was decent, against the only decent opposition so far.

I wasn't so much commenting on how good he is, although he wasn't particularly impressive. But more on the fact that he gets praised to the heavens for tackling, which is as far as i'm aware one of the primary skills of all backrow players, in fact all rugby players. SOB can tackle, so can Tipuric. Both can do other things which in my estimations make them better choices then him.

If we can't make these kinds of comments on here then what can we comment on?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

faletau didnt have a great game and did spill the ball in contact but is not deserving that sort of put down

Gav, I like Faletau, I like an 8 to be a physical work horse who can mix it in the tight and the loose. In the modern game there is a requirement to have some footballing skills and good hands. Toby delivered the defensive half of that remit (though I'd like to see him smashing some rucks trying to force a turnover) but in attack he was completely dire. He offered none of the traits I listed. That's not good enough for an international 8, he butchered the chance after England were opting for the scrums 5m out, it should be an 8s bread and butter to pick up the ball draw a flanker and pop to the 9 from the base of the scrum. Youngs AMD North were up against a solitary defender 5m out it was as good as a try.

Having seen the big guy in the 6N I had expectations but he didn't deliver. Ditto Warburton, Lydiate provided the Worsley impersonation I expected.

bit of a woopsie there Sam

Please lets not turn this into another Lydiate debate !

Thought a lot of players had really mixed games, some very good bits but combined with some bad errors

15. Hogg - some really good breaks and tackles and generally looked safe. A couple of errors but didn't do himself much harm. 7

14. Cuthbert - One of the biggest disappointments for me. After the 6N I was really looking forward to him pressurising North and Bowe for a test spot but I thought he missed a great chance to score, was lazy in the chase and then the tackle for their try. Improved a bit later on but not enough 5

13. Tuilagi - looked good while he was on.

12. Davies - didn't do a lot wrong but should have scored when he kicked it way beyond the dead ball line 6

11. Bowe - great while he was on, was looking like he was back to his best after injury. A real shame about his injury

10. Farrell - I thought he was much better, made a couple of good breaks, kept the ball moving quickly and got stuck in to plenty of tackles. He missed a couple of tackles and a couple of his kicks were overdone but much better. Good goalkicking too. 7

9. Youngs - thought he did well, made some good breaks, good passing and was alert enough to take the try. If a 9 rips the ball from an 8, he deserves a bit of luck. Still think Gatland will go with MP but a great bench option when the game opens up 8

8. Faletau - A real mix for me, some great play but some really basic errors as well. Good competition with Heaslip for the test spot but think Heaslip is just ahead at the minute 7

7. Warburton - Looked short of match fitness, especially early on and will know he should have done better for their try. Think he should play half a game (at least) in midweek and then next week as well 6

6 Lydiate - One of those players that doesn't stand out but if you count his contribution it adds up. Still think he needed to do more to get ahead of Warbs, SOB and Croft as alternatives 6

5. Parling- Another mixed performance, couple of bad drops but some good line out work. Think he is a bench option at best as it stands 6

4. Gray - thought he was excellent, one of the best performers on the day and is looking like a test starter. 8

3. Stevens- I know some people on here had marked him as a 4 or 5 before the game but the scrum went well and he didn't do a lot wrong. Still a long way off a test start but a decent effort 6

2. Youngs- good game, did well with his throwing and decent work in the loose. Still think he's a better option coming off the bench 7

1. Vunipola - Didn't think he was as good today as in the previous 2 games but still impressive. He looks like he will be solid enough in the scrum and will cause all sorts of problems in the loose. Still think he might be behind Corbs/Grant for the starting spot but should definitely be in the 23 7


Thought the bench did fine overall, some good leadership from POC, North made some great breaks and the front row looked solid. Sexton also looked composed though it is a concern seeing both him and Farrell having to play at the same time, especially when he's testing his hamstring.

Stevens won a pen didn't he as well? I nearly choked on my dinner.

I am taking a risk of being shouted at, but what did Gray do to earn such rave reviews? Sure i saw him a lot, rather hard to miss, but did not really see him do anything - mainly on the fringes of the action.